Rethink this SSG

[alearon]

Dear SSG,

This patch you removed 2 things that made LM fun in raids. being able to use bear pet taunt to taunt adds of yourself, save a run when a tank get down to use a singular bearpetaunt and you removed eagle being accessable in yellow and red.
You have taken away power from the LM without compensation for other pets.
A change could be to instead let LM bearpet taunt have a 1 minute cooldown wich doesnt reset upon resummon. either that or implement some other aspects about pets. Right before this update bearpet taunt; self rez and boglurker rootstrike made using pets actually fun to use and not being just a silly little mechanic you HAVE to do to meet dps checks in higher tier raids.

Another thing that kinda grinds my gears is that the upgrades to fire and frostlore are verry lackluster. When you do fire+frost lore and a lightning skill you will reduce ranged damage by 50%, verry nice. 50% powercost increase? useless.
Deep freeze-> 1.4k tactical mastery reduction on lvl 140? you guys really need to look at these numbers. the concept is verry cool. Implementation has somethings left to be desired.

So yeah....

kind regards,

the concerned waffletree

[Mithithil]

I've concluded that the devs are trying to remove the LM players because the LM players have a terrible tendancy to think through their skills and outsmart instance designers. Bear as emergency temporary tank has been a thing since pet summoning in combat became a thing and surely any problems were worked through so long ago that many players hadn't even started yet.
Wizard's Frost...really?

[greendarner]

Dear SSG,

This patch you removed 2 things that made LM fun in raids. being able to use bear pet taunt to taunt adds of yourself, save a run when a tank get down to use a singular bearpetaunt and you removed eagle being accessable in yellow and red.
You have taken away power from the LM without compensation for other pets.
A change could be to instead let LM bearpet taunt have a 1 minute cooldown wich doesnt reset upon resummon. either that or implement some other aspects about pets. Right before this update bearpet taunt; self rez and boglurker rootstrike made using pets actually fun to use and not being just a silly little mechanic you HAVE to do to meet dps checks in higher tier raids.

Another thing that kinda grinds my gears is that the upgrades to fire and frostlore are verry lackluster. When you do fire+frost lore and a lightning skill you will reduce ranged damage by 50%, verry nice. 50% powercost increase? useless.
Deep freeze-> 1.4k tactical mastery reduction on lvl 140? you guys really need to look at these numbers. the concept is verry cool. Implementation has somethings left to be desired.

Can you tell me where these changes are spelled out? I read and re-read the LM segment of the release notes, and I see nothing about these changes. Not that I doubt that they occurred, but it came as a complete surprise to me last evening when I was trying to use my bear to off-tank nasty mobs. I came to the forums to see if I could find out anything about that, and now I want to know more. Thanks.

[Tralfazz]

Can you tell me where these changes are spelled out?

https://www.lotro.com/update-notes/l...lease-notes-en
In the "Quests & Instances" section:
"In addition, the following skill is now barred from use in Classic Instances and Epic Battles set to group sizes of 12 players and higher: Roaring Challenge"

[theultimatekyle]

Disabling bear taunts in raid was easier for the devs then actually properly balancing their content. They didnt want players using it on t4/5 boss 2 of hidden hoard, but never stopped to wonder why most groups had to rely on using it. If the devs properly balanced things, players wouldnt have to "abuse" skills that have been available in game for literally a decade.

[savetheroadtodoriath]

https://www.lotro.com/update-notes/l...lease-notes-en
In the "Quests & Instances" section:
"In addition, the following skill is now barred from use in Classic Instances and Epic Battles set to group sizes of 12 players and higher: Roaring Challenge"

That you could infinitely reset and use the bear taunt to undermine raid mechanics was clearly broken. Idk why anyone would complain about this when 99% of the time it was used in an abusive way.

Is there a better way to fix this? Sure, if it were me I'd just change the bear taunt to create a debuuff making the mob immune to it for 30s afterward, something very similar was done for Captain Herald and their big self heal, it's a no brainer. A similar tactic was used for Oathbreakers also. Either way I'm glad this isn't an option anymore in raids.

[greendarner]

Thanks for the link to the text, Tralfazz. I DID read it, but I'm horrible with names of skills, and I thought (then) that "Roaring Challenge" was something else. :-{

That you could infinitely reset and use the bear taunt to undermine raid mechanics was clearly broken. Idk why anyone would complain about this when 99% of the time it was used in an abusive way.

Is there a better way to fix this? Sure, if it were me I'd just change the bear taunt to create a debuuff making the mob immune to it for 30s afterward, something very similar was done for Captain Herald and their big self heal, it's a no brainer. A similar tactic was used for Oathbreakers also. Either way I'm glad this isn't an option anymore in raids.

Used in an ABUSIVE way? It's a skill we've had for FIFTEEN years and using it is abusive? And why are YOU the one who gets to determine that a class using a long-standing skill is "abusive"? What sour grapes have you been eating? The challenge had a very short duration and a much longer cooldown. Bears don't do enough damage to reliably hold aggro, yet it's abusive? LM's are supposed to be about CROWD CONTROL (as well as buffing and debuffing) and you're trashing people for using it, calling it abusive? LM is supposed to be a challenging and complex class and you're all for penalizing the people who have learned to use legitimate skills to do a good job. Get off with your arrogance! [not enough eyerolls in the world]

[Vilan]

Yes, Roaring Challenge has a long cooldown, but you can just dismiss your bear, summon a new one, and use it again immediately. Years ago you couldn't summon pets in combat and so this wasn't an issue. Since SSG removed this ability, it seems that they agree that it was abusive.

[Sherush]

Leave our beloved LM alone we use that bear sometime to save a healer in instances and raids.... Also Gortheron in OD I need the bear tank when I have to deal with the Boar.

[Sherush]

Yes, Roaring Challenge has a long cooldown, but you can just dismiss your bear, summon a new one, and use it again immediately. Years ago you couldn't summon pets in combat and so this wasn't an issue. Since SSG removed this ability, it seems that they agree that it was abusive.

Far from abusive only last for 5 seconds I like pet swappy I feel like a useful LM in raids

[Sherush]

Disabling bear taunts in raid was easier for the devs then actually properly balancing their content. They didnt want players using it on t4/5 boss 2 of hidden hoard, but never stopped to wonder why most groups had to rely on using it. If the devs properly balanced things, players wouldnt have to "abuse" skills that have been available in game for literally a decade.

Agree they should have fixed the t4/t5 boss 2 instead of screwing the rest of us when we rely on bear taunts in other raids for good reasons.

[Strider5548]

Agree they should have fixed the t4/t5 boss 2 instead of screwing the rest of us when we rely on bear taunts in other raids for good reasons.

agreed 100%...if bear taunt leads to undesired gameplay then fix the gameplay. In this case make the boss unaffected by bear taunt. I hate when changes like this go through because it just dumbs down the class. There are legitimate use cases for bear taunt in raid fights with adds, it's a unique part of the LM toolkit, sad to see it go away because of one group using it to cheese one raid.

[Meshuggenah]

The state of LM pets is disgraceful. They're just another debuff in the already bloated list of LM debuffs and provide little to no use at level cap.

Given this, it's kind of a weird decision to nuke one of the few uses they do still have in a fellowship setting? Very odd decision making indeed. Why should LM bear pets not be able to off tank in raids? They are a tank pet yet using them as a tank pet is somehow abusive? Strange.

I've said before. LM Pets should be significantly stronger in mitigations, health and st/aoe damage (MAKE PETS SCALE WITH GEAR, PLEASE!) than they currently are and come with a cooldown to summon them, as would be thematic. If you dismiss a pet or allow it to die you should have not have access to that pet again for a reasonable duration.

Please also prune the buff/debuff lists across the board significantly. Seeing 5 rows of debuffs on a mob and having to maintain 10 different debuffs as a support class is just meaningless bloat. Its not engaging gameplay. I also wouldn't be surprised if this excessive effect spam contributes to server lag.

There should be a handful of mutually exclusive buffs and debuffs to maintain across all of the support classes, so that support classes are interchangeable, and the rest of the time support should be spent making proactive decisions about whether to heal, cc or dps. Not spamming the same half dozen or more debuffs over and over and over for the duration of the fight.

In fact, I would be in favor of giving LM the "brawler treatment." Get rid of yellow line entirely, other than to trait enhancements to blue/red. Make blue a healing line, make red a DPS line. Then bake all of the buffs/debuffs they provide into those roles.

Importantly, instead of buffing LM healing/DPS further to fit those roles, buff the PETS so that they provide a significant contribution based on choosing to summon the appropriate pet for the job as it should be for a pet-based class. Not just their stats, but give them skills to use so they perform like a fellowship member that contributes meaningfully to their role. The bear should be a capable off tank, the bog-lurker should be a capable ranged damage dealer, the spirit of nature should be a capable support healer. None of them should be so strong that they can replace an actual fellowship member, obviously, but strong to offset the LM's lack of personal contribution in those roles. Seems to me that is the purpose of an MMO pet class. The pets should be contributing at least 50% of the LM's total effectiveness so that their combined efforts are equal to another player.

LM Pets should be an integral part of the class and gameplay, which should be flexible around which pet is currently summoned and the fellowship role they're filling. It's really poor design to see pets relegated to just more debuff spam.

That is the "rework" LM needs IMO. Make pets great again, prune all the bloat.

[Sherush]

Take it back this did not fix it. in raid have it available but it will not go off.

[savetheroadtodoriath]

Used in an ABUSIVE way? It's a skill we've had for FIFTEEN years and using it is abusive? And why are YOU the one who gets to determine that a class using a long-standing skill is "abusive"? What sour grapes have you been eating? The challenge had a very short duration and a much longer cooldown. Bears don't do enough damage to reliably hold aggro, yet it's abusive? LM's are supposed to be about CROWD CONTROL (as well as buffing and debuffing) and you're trashing people for using it, calling it abusive? LM is supposed to be a challenging and complex class and you're all for penalizing the people who have learned to use legitimate skills to do a good job. Get off with your arrogance! [not enough eyerolls in the world]

No offense, but why are you replying to me when you have no idea what you're talking about? None of your apology has anything to do with what I said. The 'short duration' and 'long cooldown' you are mentioning are completely irrelevant, because the abuse involved dismissing and resummoning the bear over and over and over and over which resets the CD and allows you to infinitely force taunt a mob and thus break a great deal of mechanics. It's how a lot of people have 'beat' the 2nd boss in HH by abusing this to get around the mechanics of the fight, which is obviously what I'm talking about.

And for most of Lotro's history you haven't been able to do this, so don't give me that 'fifteen years!' bullpoop, it's just not true. They fundamentally changed how LM summoning works several times over the years.

[Neinda]

And this is my whole issue with all of this. Burgs can stealth past things and that is acceptable. LMs and Burgs now lock down mobs and the raid has the mini prebuff fights. That is allowed. LMs using a tank pet as a tank or the eagle in other than blue line for literally years is all of a sudden a problem. This is all a bit confusing as to why some things are considered exploits and stopped while other things are allowed and in some cases encouraged. The game is 15 plus years old. Why does SSG care if people succeed in a raid using skills that have been around forever? This to me is more of a case of people understanding their classes and what the class skills can accomplish and using the knowledge to succeed.

How does SSG determine what skill use is an exploit and what creative skill use is acceptable? I don't see consistency in the decisions and changes. It feels more like whoever complains first or the loudest gets the attention. If people are not actually cheating and just being creative why are some things wrong and need to be stopped while other things are ok? There is a difference between using skills to do what they were made to do in a creative way and using faults in the game to cause something to "glitch" where you can cheat the system.

[savetheroadtodoriath]

And this is my whole issue with all of this. Burgs can stealth past things and that is acceptable. LMs and Burgs now lock down mobs and the raid has the mini prebuff fights. That is allowed. LMs using a tank pet as a tank or the eagle in other than blue line for literally years is all of a sudden a problem. This is all a bit confusing as to why some things are considered exploits and stopped while other things are allowed and in some cases encouraged. The game is 15 plus years old. Why does SSG care if people succeed in a raid using skills that have been around forever? This to me is more of a case of people understanding their classes and what the class skills can accomplish and using the knowledge to succeed.

How does SSG determine what skill use is an exploit and what creative skill use is acceptable? I don't see consistency in the decisions and changes. It feels more like whoever complains first or the loudest gets the attention. If people are not actually cheating and just being creative why are some things wrong and need to be stopped while other things are ok? There is a difference between using skills to do what they were made to do in a creative way and using faults in the game to cause something to "glitch" where you can cheat the system.

lol, lmao even
https://i.imgur.com/i6sN4t3.mp4
This is what you're arguing against eliminating. Yes what satisfying complex and engaging gameplay we are being denied with this change!

Why do you people pretend that :
a) bear taunt outside of abusive mechanics is relevant important or even in any way common in raids
and
b) that it isn't completely obvious what abuse is as it fundamentally undermines important mechanics
there's zero ambiguity here and the "loss" in question is so miniscule it's amazing anyone can care about, which probably isn't the case outside of the bored whiners who make up this forum.

[Mithithil]

lol, lmao even
https://i.imgur.com/i6sN4t3.mp4
This is what you're arguing against eliminating. Yes what satisfying complex and engaging gameplay we are being denied with this change!

Why do you people pretend that :
a) bear taunt outside of abusive mechanics is relevant important or even in any way common in raids
and
b) that it isn't completely obvious what abuse is as it fundamentally undermines important mechanics
there's zero ambiguity here and the "loss" in question is so miniscule it's amazing anyone can care about, which probably isn't the case outside of the bored whiners who make up this forum.

I think you need to provide some commentary to that video, time stamp for a thing to observe and so forth. Otherwise its like all such videos which tend to come over as somewhat of a "look at us, aren't we clever" as opposed to the teaching opportunity that they could be

It may be that your personal experience differs from that of others, this isn't uncommon and certainly its at odds with the sense of the room. If so called important mechanics can be dealt with by the use of a skill available from at or before L15 then that suggests that the mechanic isnt as important as you surmise or the relevant developer ion't as good at the role as perhaps we might expect. Other conclusions are possible but I have to say that they might be less apparent that the two stand out ones. The third most plausible interpretation, and this is a highly perosnal view of someone who has written and run TTRPG and LARP for a lot of years (let's leave it at >30) and its what I do on occasion, is that the option exists because the developer thought it reasonable that creative thinking should have a reward.

[Neinda]

lol, lmao even
https://i.imgur.com/i6sN4t3.mp4
This is what you're arguing against eliminating. Yes what satisfying complex and engaging gameplay we are being denied with this change!

Why do you people pretend that :
a) bear taunt outside of abusive mechanics is relevant important or even in any way common in raids
and
b) that it isn't completely obvious what abuse is as it fundamentally undermines important mechanics
there's zero ambiguity here and the "loss" in question is so miniscule it's amazing anyone can care about, which probably isn't the case outside of the bored whiners who make up this forum.

My question is more about how does SSG decide which exploits are acceptable use of available skills and plain old game play and which are considered exploits that need to be stopped when it is just a case of skills being used in a creative way. If this example of yours is a problem that needs to be stopped why can burgs stealth past mobs? If this is an example of abusive game play why can burgs and lms lock down a mob to keep a mini in combat so the mini can prebuff a fight? SSG allows some exploits and calls them game play and stops other game play and calls it an exploit. No logic there to me. And bottom line, people here in many cases have played these classes for years. They know what the class can do and they know how to be creative with the use of their skills. Why punish creative use of skills? Note: I am not talking about doing things that "glitch" the game and cause people to get extra rewards and such. I am talking about using the skills available in a creative way in order to beat a difficult fight.

And to be honest, who cares if people beat the raid? Is that not the goal? Having the actual possibility of being able to win the boss fight is why people keep trying. If SSG makes is so impossible to win people don't bother trying.

[savetheroadtodoriath]

I think you need to provide some commentary to that video, time stamp for a thing to observe and so forth. Otherwise its like all such videos which tend to come over as somewhat of a "look at us, aren't we clever" as opposed to the teaching opportunity that they could be

It's a 25s clip consisting of doing the exact same thing over and over....

....

They summon the LM bear. They use force taunt. They resummon the bear a few seconds later. They use force taunt....and repeat.
This allows the LM to permanently keep the boss busy thus trivializing a T5 raid fight, without doing this the tanks would have to actually worry about managing debuffs versus letting the boss build up his buff.

If so called important mechanics can be dealt with by the use of a skill available from at or before L15 then that suggests that the mechanic isnt as important as you surmise or the relevant developer ion't as good at the role as perhaps we might expect

This is phenomenally stupid logic. What the hell does the level you acquire the skill have to do with anything? I don't even know why I'm replying.

My question is more about how does SSG decide which exploits are acceptable use of available skills and plain old game play and which are considered exploits that need to be stopped when it is just a case of skills being used in a creative way. If this example of yours is a problem that needs to be stopped why can burgs stealth past mobs? If this is an example of abusive game play why can burgs and lms lock down a mob to keep a mini in combat so the mini can prebuff a fight? SSG allows some exploits and calls them game play and stops other game play and calls it an exploit. No logic there to me. And bottom line, people here in many cases have played these classes for years. They know what the class can do and they know how to be creative with the use of their skills. Why punish creative use of skills? Note: I am not talking about doing things that "glitch" the game and cause people to get extra rewards and such. I am talking about using the skills available in a creative way in order to beat a difficult fight.

And to be honest, who cares if people beat the raid? Is that not the goal? Having the actual possibility of being able to win the boss fight is why people keep trying. If SSG makes is so impossible to win people don't bother trying.

Is this a bot? I'm not repeating myself to someone who says nothing new and says it over and over and never for any reason.

No-one's ability to do T1 has been affected by this change. I guarantee you're not doing T5 so why do you care? This only meaningfully affects the people who were abusing the mechanic.

[Neinda]

It's a 25s clip consisting of doing the exact same thing over and over....

....

They summon the LM bear. They use force taunt. They resummon the bear a few seconds later. They use force taunt....and repeat.
This allows the LM to permanently keep the boss busy thus trivializing a T5 raid fight, without doing this the tanks would have to actually worry about managing debuffs versus letting the boss build up his buff.

This is phenomenally stupid logic. What the hell does the level you acquire the skill have to do with anything? I don't even know why I'm replying.


Is this a bot? I'm not repeating myself to someone who says nothing new and says it over and over and never for any reason.

No-one's ability to do T1 has been affected by this change. I guarantee you're not doing T5 so why do you care? This only meaningfully affects the people who were abusing the mechanic.

Not a bot. Just someone trying to understand the difference between creative skill use and exploit skill use. When these type of changes happen they affect everyone in game in one way or another. If we actually knew what SSG considered exploits vs using available skills these changes might not have to occur. If anyone understands why some of the things I mentioned are acceptable game play and others are not maybe all of us could understand better why changes of this nature are made. I prefer not to get in trouble playing the game using skills in an inappropriate manner is all.

[CaerArianrhod]

It's a 25s clip consisting of doing the exact same thing over and over....

....

They summon the LM bear. They use force taunt. They resummon the bear a few seconds later. They use force taunt....and repeat.
This allows the LM to permanently keep the boss busy thus trivializing a T5 raid fight, without doing this the tanks would have to actually worry about managing debuffs versus letting the boss build up his buff.

This is phenomenally stupid logic. What the hell does the level you acquire the skill have to do with anything? I don't even know why I'm replying.


Is this a bot? I'm not repeating myself to someone who says nothing new and says it over and over and never for any reason.

No-one's ability to do T1 has been affected by this change. I guarantee you're not doing T5 so why do you care? This only meaningfully affects the people who were abusing the mechanic.

The problem with this changes are, that SSG do all the time this kind of extremely stupid changes, becaus their terrible instance desing (it has been YEARS that SSG had good intance desingn with good meachanics) and because their lack of understanding the classes AND the changes they do to this classes.

Started with the Pelargir instances, stupid mistakes from SGG: don't having borders between bosses.
Of course people discoverd that they can run through halt of the instance and minstel can use then "Still As Death".
SSG's first reaction? Disable the skill. Later they added gates between bosses.

Epic battles and healing pet from LM: instead of making objects immune again pet's AoE heal SGG disabled added first a 1 min starting CD on the skill and later 3 min CD on the healing pet and on the AoE healing skillt
Naerband anyone? SSG "fixed" the instance with a nerf on the LM bear and the class (The pets have lost almost half their morale) etc. but the instance mechanics are is still broken.
Captain Oathbreaker's Shame, Shield of the Dúnedain ...
Reflected damage/reflections skills ... and many other classes/skills.
And now the LM bear again and now the eagle too.

All these are witnesses how SSG first reaction is alway a skill/class nerf instead of re-think their instance design or just do a real skill/class rework (instead of messing up classes even more).
They just could add a bear-force-aggro CD on a bear-taunted mob like they did it with Oathbreaker's Shame.

[Elmagor]

I don't understand why they can't just add immune to bear agro to boss, like they add anti-slow buff in recent years. So LM can at least use pet to agro some mobs instead of boss. But no, they just disable skill where they don't have any problems with it in 15 years