Developer's Diary – Captain Updates by OnnMacMahal

[OnnMacMahal]

Thanks for the continued engagement, folks! I've updated the second post in this thread with some more details in advance of the Q&A.

[SingularityNow]

Onn,

EVERY RAID has two tanks and multiple healers. Don't switch song and shield bro.

[Hirandiel]

Onn,

EVERY RAID has two tanks and multiple healers. Don't switch song and shield bro.

Instead of switching them around, they should honestly just make all the "brother" toggles available regardless of spec so we can choose what works best for a given encounter.

[furtim]

EVERY RAID has two tanks and multiple healers.

In 12-mans, yes. In 6-mans, no.

Every instance in the game will tend to have at least one tank and one healer. And the set of all instances is much larger than the set of all raids, while including the set of all raids.

[Elmagor]

Onn,

EVERY RAID has two tanks and multiple healers. Don't switch song and shield bro.

Wrong. Depends on tier. You have have 1 tank and 1 healer in T1 HoA, and can have 3 tanks and 3 healers in T3 HoA. Depends on setup, gear and skill.

P.S. I like new captain info so far.

[Arabani]

Do I get it right, that besides increasing of Galant Display performance (and probably of the other existing heals) and moving SoD back to Blue, there are no other changes? No additional heals? No real heals? No castable heals? No group saves or emergency heals?

How is it different from the current state of a captain healer? Our biggest issue is we do not have real, castable, spammable to some degree heals (both single target and group ones). We barely have any heal outside melee abilities (even worse, our only spamable heal was turned into hot some time ago, not that it was great in the first place, but now it is useless). Melee heals are too unreliable and too dependant on the fight (what are we supposed to do on fights that do not favor melee? or fights were we simply must stay range?). Melee skills should be an addition to the main kit, abilities that let you change your playstyle slightly dependng on the situation (adding personal dps and buffs to the group, while still healing them to some degree, for instance). That is why I suggested reactive heals: you cast them, then you can add melee abilities/combat arts/debuffs/buffs, stop to recast reactives when the charges need to be refreshed, react with propper spammable, after a fashion, heals if things get tough or if you need to stay ranged.

I'm trully disapointed with the anounced changes so far. Just increasing numbers without significat changes to the playstyle and abilities will do nothing.

[gardavil]

I can't help but notice there's no mention of Halberds.

Any chance for a buff to Halberds to help promote Captain identity? Keep in mind, it should come with some kind of refund/transference mechanism because lots of people (like myself) already invested into 2H swords because they are mathematically better, but would rather use Halberds.

I do appreciate what you are saying. Perhaps the Devs can do something to make DPS on Halberds worthwhile. In my experience they are not worthwhile.

I don't know about everyone else, but I will NEVER choose halberds because that 5% DPS racial trait depending on race matters more than looks or vanity or class identity. In my experience DPS on halberds and other two-handed weapons is too similar. Two Handed swords for Men and Elves, Two Handed Axes for Dwarves... to me there are no other logical choices for Captains, especially with low DPS for the class overall as compared to other classes... exception for two-handed weapons is when I am running Blue and shield equipped, then it's still sword for men, elves, axe for Dwarves. (The light shield doesn't help much but it does help in my experience when you are the only tank in your group.)

with all due respect... even Minstrels out DPS Captains in my experience running both these classes as mains. Halberds won't fix that. Grabbing every buff to DPS a Captain can is what matters right now. Maybe the new changes will bring better balance to Captain overall.

Note: I never run Red trait on any class other than Hunter and Champion. I run all my Captains and Minstrels on Blue or Yellow only.

[Sidebar discussion: There's more out of balance here than just Captain IMHO... and I now run only Captains and Minstrels so my opinion isn't about envy or ego. A primary healing class that isn't even allowed to use two-handed weapons should never out DPS a support class that is designed to use two-handed weapons. Basic MMORPG/MMO design to me, regardless of other skills employed. But what do I know? I'm not a Dev. I'll leave it to them.]

[Hephburz-2]

Battle-state Changes
Battle-readied will now increase your threat multiplier for captains specialized in yellow-line
The existing Battle-readied damage increase will improve the healing potency of all your Valour heals (see Valour below).
Taken together with existing traits and traceries, captains in every specialization should have some incentive to maintain both Battle-states as much as possible.

- This change for battle-readied for yCaptain is extremely nice when coupled with the hopeful damage buffs, hopefully captains will be able to at least get and maintain aggro now without having to rely solely on force taunts.

Defensive Strike
Defensive Strike is making a return to provide all captains with a second baseline skill to grant them the Battle-readied state. You’ll acquire Defensive Strike before level 50, and it has a cooldown of 15 seconds. Nothing too fancy here, but a reliable skill to keep your skill sequences moving, even if you happen to be a tank.

- This is nice, especially for the yellow changes, as well following on from the SL and VS changes.

Inspiriting Presence
The current effect from this trait would be replaced by a new effect:
Critical hits with melee skills will give you one stack of ‘Inspiriting.’ Each stack will give you 2% Outgoing Healing, up to 5 stacks. At 5 stacks, you gain ‘Gift of Spirit’ a skill which consumes all stacks to significantly heal a targeted ally.

- Can I suggest this be reduced to 3? Instead of 5? Simply because it's 5 crits, if this was 5 normal skills it would be fine, but 5 crits is rather high for the skill to be active often.

Reform the Lines
This trait will be moving over into the specialization column (so it’s still blue-exclusive) while its position in the tree will be replaced by the ‘Shield of the Dunedain’ trait, granting you the eponymous skill.

- This skill could use some love, it's basically Relentless Maul (Beorning healing skill), but weaker and with a longer cooldown, the raid set from HH made it interesting, but it's still lacklustre and with a rather long cooldown.

Master of War
When you land critical hits with Inspire (not Shadow’s Lament) you and your Blade-brother will both receive +50% critical chance for 5 seconds.

- Very strong, very nice, 5 seconds is a bit short though, perhaps a slightly lower magnitude for a slightly higher duration?

Standing Alone
Stand Alone: Inspire > Self-determination
Self-determination will be a melee attack that gives you increased Damage and slightly-reduced Incoming Damage for 18s. By using this skill more-or-less off cooldown, you can maintain this buff for 100% of the time you’re in combat while standing alone.

Stand Alone: To Arms > Masterful Strike
This will be a strong melee attack which also gives you a strong Damage buff.

Stand Alone: Words of Courage > Courageous Heart
This skill will give you +20% Mitigations for 10s, and will have a 50s cooldown. Toggling ‘Stand Alone’ off to return this skill back to Words of Courage will not reduce its active cooldown.

Stand Alone: Escape from Darkness > Cry of Fury
This skill will deal AoE damage, apply an Outgoing Damage debuff to enemies hit, and give you a strong self-heal over a brief period.

- All of these look very interesting, will wait to see how they all function in practice.

Shield-brother’s Call
This skill will be transformed into one which requires you to target an ally. That ally would gain -30% incoming damage for 5 seconds. When the 5 seconds expire, some of that player’s threat will be transferred to you.

- How much is the threat redirect going to be? Will it simply put you higher on the threat list than them, or is it a certain amount of threat? Because for example, using this on a fellow tank might end up being a death sentence for yourself / your group if the target swaps to you after the 5 seconds. Perhaps reconsider the threat redirect.

Shield of the Dunedain > Front Line Resilience
This is a new skill that will take the place of Shield of the Dunedain. It will negate 50% of your Incoming Damage for 10 seconds, and each hit taken while active will give you a stack of Battle-endurance. After the initial damage reduction expires, you’ll gain +100% Melee Damage and each melee attack you make will restore 5% of your morale.
This skill will have a 4 minute cooldown.

- I'm in love with the sound of this skill, it sounds amazing and I can't wait to try it out.

Strength in Numbers
While the effect of this skill isn’t going to change, many of you have called out the fact that it needs to be tuned upwards. Expect to see SiN healing values go up, especially when it hits the maximum number of allies.

- Perhaps add a small 1% mitigation buff for 5-10s per ally near the captain as well, could be interesting?

Fighting Withdrawal
Fighting Withdrawal would lose its parry buff. The parry buff has a huge impact on your damage mitigation, but tying it to your CC-breakout skill makes it feel bad to use just for parry or just for CC removal. For captains specialized into yellow, this parry buff will be shifted into ‘Hammer Stroke.’

Hammer Stroke
This will be a melee skill that deals significant damage and gives you a 30% Parry Chance buff for 10s, with a 45s cooldown.

- Thank you for finally splitting the CC breakout and the Parry buff, I would however opt for a longer duration / longer cooldown over the 10/45 it currently is.


====

Please consider changes and/or updates to the following;

- Noble Mark
- Revealing Mark
- More skills tied into Battle-Readied & Battle-Hardened if possible
- Two-Handed Prowess in Yellow, giving us more incentive to use a 2hander in Tanking coupled with the damage increase.

[gardavil]

Instead of switching them around, they should honestly just make all the "brother" toggles available regardless of spec so we can choose what works best for a given encounter.

This suggestion fits the Support design of Captains. Let us decide what Brother skills we need and when please.

[Hephburz-2]

This suggestion fits the Support design of Captains. Let us decide what Brother skills we need and when please.

Would also support this as well actaully, allowing captains to have access to all 3 brother skills and allowing them to pick best on situation, regardless of line.

[Atonu]

I do appreciate what you are saying. Perhaps the Devs can do something to make DPS on Halberds worthwhile. In my experience they are not worthwhile.

I don't know about everyone else, but I will NEVER choose halberds because that 5% DPS racial trait depending on race matters more than looks or vanity or class identity. In my experience DPS on halberds and other two-handed weapons is too similar. Two Handed swords for Men and Elves, Two Handed Axes for Dwarves... to me there are no other logical choices for Captains, especially with low DPS for the class overall as compared to other classes... exception for two-handed weapons is when I am running Blue and shield equipped, then it's still sword for men, elves, axe for Dwarves. (The light shield doesn't help much but it does help in my experience when you are the only tank in your group.)

with all due respect... even Minstrels out DPS Captains in my experience running both these classes as mains. Halberds won't fix that. Grabbing every buff to DPS a Captain can is what matters right now. Maybe the new changes will bring better balance to Captain overall.

Note: I never run Red trait on any class other than Hunter and Champion. I run all my Captains and Minstrels on Blue or Yellow only.

[Sidebar discussion: There's more out of balance here than just Captain IMHO... and I now run only Captains and Minstrels so my opinion isn't about envy or ego. A primary healing class that isn't even allowed to use two-handed weapons should never out DPS a support class that is designed to use two-handed weapons. Basic MMORPG/MMO design to me, regardless of other skills employed. But what do I know? I'm not a Dev. I'll leave it to them.]

Captains get 5% halberd damage so the damage should be the same.

Edit: Your last point is a bit odd, so minstrel shouldn't do good damage just because they don't use a 2h? Ultimately every trait tree should be viable in a perfect world, then people can just play what they want.

[thymos]

Captains get 5% halberd damage so the damage should be the same.

Yes but we get 5% Sword damage too but Swords have a useful passive that Halberds do not.

[Arabani]

I hope people who focus on on the importance of 5% damage realise it is actually not a flat 5% increase, do you? It is basically Mastery. The higher Mastery cap is, the less return one gets from this bonus.

[Atonu]

Yes but we get 5% Sword damage too but Swords have a useful passive that Halberds do not.

I mean, they are talking about damage. 2% auto attack crit gives more damage than 2% parry :P

[Atonu]

I hope people who focus on on the importance of 5% damage realise it is actually not a flat 5% increase, do you? It is basically Mastery. The higher Mastery cap is, the less return one gets from this bonus.

Yea, that crops up a lot on my stream with people asking about it, at high level it ends up being a fraction of a fraction of a %. As I always say I think it's worth using the class/races weapon if you can, but it's not a reason to roll an elf hunter if you want to be a hobbit.

[theultimatekyle]

I hope people who focus on on the importance of 5% damage realise it is actually not a flat 5% increase, do you? It is basically Mastery. The higher Mastery cap is, the less return one gets from this bonus.

The 5% bonus from racial isn't mastery, it's actual bonus damage on the weapon's damage. But since most skills have a ((weapon damage * mastery) + bonus damage) calculation the real damage increase is always lower than 5%, but varies skill to skill. Real overall increase averages about 3%, which is non-negligible in a raid. Pure damage wise the Halberd has an infinitesimal advantage, but the 2 hander sword has slightly faster animations, making it the usual go to. The difference between the two really shouldn't matter.


On another note, maybe I'm missing it, but what does the stacks of battle endurance from at the fore do? Do you cash them out for the damage bonus? Or are they the fuel for the heal given on melee hits?

[Atonu]

The 5% bonus from racial isn't mastery, it's actual bonus damage on the weapon's damage. But since most skills have a ((weapon damage * mastery) + bonus damage) calculation the real damage increase is always lower than 5%, but varies skill to skill. Real overall increase averages about 3%, which is non-negligible in a raid. Pure damage wise the Halberd has an infinitesimal advantage, but the 2 hander sword has slightly faster animations, making it the usual go to. The difference between the two really shouldn't matter.


On another note, maybe I'm missing it, but what does the stacks of battle endurance from at the fore do? Do you cash them out for the damage bonus? Or are they the fuel for the heal given on melee hits?

3%? I'd have to see some tests with that, because even my own loose dps tests dont place it that high, at least not on a captain.

[theultimatekyle]

Roughly 3% specifically 2.84% on hunter. I saw similar but not exactly the same result on champ. Closer to 2.7% if I remember right. I didn't look at captain directly in my tests, but unless it has much larger skill specific bonuses it shouldn't vary much more (I was looking at redline skill out puts and since I use a halberd I couldn't unequip the trait for 5% halberd damage, and the way traceries effect skill damage could muddle my results, so to be truly rigorous I'd need to make a whole new sword LI and I had no plans to do that).

It's also important to note I was compiling the average difference in tool tips with and without the racial damage bonus equipped. I was not making hundreds of parses and averaging them out. Too many confounding variables in parses I think.

[Atonu]

Roughly 3% specifically 2.84% on hunter. I saw similar but not exactly the same result on champ. Closer to 2.7% if I remember right. I didn't look at captain directly in my tests, but unless it has much larger skill specific bonuses it shouldn't vary much more (I was looking at redline skill out puts and since I use a halberd I couldn't unequip the trait for 5% halberd damage, and the way traceries effect skill damage could muddle my results, so to be truly rigorous I'd need to make a whole new sword LI and I had no plans to do that).

It's also important to note I was compiling the average difference in tool tips with and without the racial damage bonus equipped. I was not making hundreds of parses and averaging them out. Too many confounding variables in parses I think.

That's more or less what I was doing too, using blank LIs and equipping and unequipping the dwarf axe trait, but as I said it was only lose testing so I'm not doubting what you say, just want to make sure I'm giving correct info. I was always led to believe that the actual difference with the trait was too minor to really be considered and my own, primitive tests seemed to back this up. As I said, I'd always advise using a class/race weapon if you can simply because even 0.01% damage is more than 0.

Edit: I should add that a) my tests were only ever done on a red captain and b) I'm the sort of player that would play a hobbit hunter even if it was a 5% difference :P

[Elmagor]

Would also support this as well actaully, allowing captains to have access to all 3 brother skills and allowing them to pick best on situation, regardless of line.

What if captain will have just 1 brother skill, but effect for this skill changes when you use it on tank/support/damage dealer?

[Hephburz-2]

On another note, maybe I'm missing it, but what does the stacks of battle endurance from at the fore do? Do you cash them out for the damage bonus? Or are they the fuel for the heal given on melee hits?

I believe the stacks are what will give you the 5% healing when you then hit a target.

[Hephburz-2]

What if captain will have just 1 brother skill, but effect for this skill changes when you use it on tank/support/damage dealer?

This is not exactly something SSG can do, because class doesn't = role / nor does a specific trait spec for that matter (I.E Blue Burglar, Yellow Hunter, Blue LM etc.).

[thymos]

I mean, they are talking about damage. 2% auto attack crit gives more damage than 2% parry :P

Yes but 2% Parry is far better in general than 2% Auto Attack Crit. I'd liken it to the difference between 2,000 vit and 200 fate.

Just because they affect different things doesn't mean we can't assess which is better than the other. 2% Parry is mathematically significant, the auto attack crit is not.

[gildhur]

Instead of switching them around, they should honestly just make all the "brother" toggles available regardless of spec so we can choose what works best for a given encounter.

Endorsed. If we can trait to get 2 or 3 Marks, why not let us have all 3 Bro toggles too. They would necessarily have to cancel each other out, of course.

Hands of Healing
Specialization proc heal
The 10% chance proc heal from specializing in Hands of Healing has been removed. This heal is inconsequentially small and added an unnecessary RNG element to core healing output.

Inspiriting Presence
The current effect from this trait would be replaced by a new effect:
Critical hits with melee skills will give you one stack of ‘Inspiriting.’ Each stack will give you 2% Outgoing Healing, up to 5 stacks. At 5 stacks, you gain ‘Gift of Spirit’ a skill which consumes all stacks to significantly heal a targeted ally.

So you're eliminating one trait effect because it's unnecessarily random, then adding a new trait effect that only triggers on...wait for it...random crits?

Rest of the changes sound good.

[OnnMacMahal]

Another controversial opinion is that Revealing Mark should be removed entirely or reworked in another way. I remember myself many times on these forums exclaiming how stupidly strong Revealing Mark would become should we continue down this path of Morale stacking from Lv120, and my point has only been proven with each passing update/expansion, player morale pools explode, and revealing mark heals are unprecedented, not just for tanks anymore, but for all classes, the passive healing it generates is silly.

While we're not planning to rework Revealing Mark right now, it will be getting its potency halved for Red/Yellow captains, so it doesn't have so much value relative to the other mark skills. We don't want to encourage morale stacking, but we'll have to disincentivize morale stacking in a more systemic way than changing just this skill.

. . . regarding the Motivate buff . . .

I would advise against adding a similar skill to other classes, it really should just be removed, and then content can be readjusted to compensate / newer content can be made on the basis that Motivation would no longer exist.

Again, I do agree with you here. That said, a lot of game numbers are sort of meaningless when you evaluate the system in abstract. If everyone has 10% less health, that doesn't really solve any issues facing either players or designers, so for the time being we don't plan on upending that precedent. The fact that all 10% of that value are locked up in captains, and only captains, has the potential to be an issue, however. And while that issue would be solved by removing Motivate, it could also be solved by allowing one or more other classes to provide a (mutually exclusive) motivate-ish buff.