Developer's Diary – Warden Updates from OnnMacMahal

[Sindhol]

Thank you for taking the time to reply point-by-point, OnnMacMahal. (I'd really like a spoiler function right now.)

I feel that it's worth noting at the beginning that being unreponsive is part of the warden's "thing". That is, we're slow to get going and slow to stop, but we're efficient (a lot of damage/healing/whatnot per gambit, at least in theory), and once we get going, there is (or ought to be) a big payoff.

It may seem weird to claim the warden's unresponsiveness as an important characteristic. Consider this:

The gambit system is a poor way to cast skills. It's slow, you can easily mess up and get a totally different skill, masteries go on cooldown and prevent entirely unrelated skills from being cast quickly, and so forth. It'd be much better to have each gambit as an individual skill, right? Especially if you get to keep their cooldowns (i.e. none).

Likewise, damage-over-time is a poor way to specialize in DPS. Your damage might be too late to matter, you don't benefit from e.g. Oathbreaker's Shame when the rest of the group is bursting hard, and you can easily die to reflect, of course. It'd be much better to have instant damage. (Likewise for healing.)

These things are intertwined. The slowness of the class follows naturally from how the skills are adapted to the gambit system. Without cooldowns, the skills have been given effects that last for a long time and don't stack, encouraging variety and discouraging spam. In the case of damaging skills, that means non-stacking damage-over-time. If you didn't have gambits, you could just have burst damage with cooldowns, and you wouldn't need to layer so many skills. (You would, essentially, have any other DPS class.)

Now, I don't think anybody actually wants to get rid of gambits, or make the class into a burst class (you explicitly said so at the very start of this rework, to much applause). Why not, when it's so clearly a poor setup? Because it's interesting, because it's fun, but most obviously: because it's the point of the class. Take a bad-but-interesting setup, and somehow make it work.

This bad-but-interesting setup results in a specific playstyle. Wardens generally don't swap to weak targets because they'll be too late to matter. Wardens swap away from a mob at low health to start pre-stacking on the next mob. I like that. It's a natural consequence of the way warden DPS is built up of layers of damage over time; it's the nature of the class. You can tell from the way someone goes around a mob-filled area that they're a warden. I think it's crucial to the character of the class that that remains so, and that changes to the class should be made in that spirit.

In other words: I'd rather have tools that make me successful at being slow in a fast game than tools that make me fast.

I'm not suggesting that wardens should be able to fill different roles within the same fight, but within your chosen role you should be able to more flexibly react to moment-to-moment changes in a fight.

I wouldn't call it versatility but rather responsiveness, but that's a difference of terminology (it will come up later, because it's an important difference). In practice, I don't think encounter design requires much of this at all on the DPS side, and the proposed changes don't help much on the tank side.

Generally, DPS deals damage to the appropriate target and tries not to die. That's it. That's why I brought up different roles: in LoTRO, the DPS role is really focused on good rotation and positioning, and very little on CC/tanking/healing/things that are not damage. So "flexibly react[ing]" is mainly going to consist of "can hit a DPS skill without getting reflected to death, perhaps 20 seconds from now" (admittedly useful), and perhaps slightly of interrupting/corruption removal. Wardens can interrupt; corruption removal is unreactive but fast when sustained, positioning is fine (if Assailment is going to mirror In the Fray well enough, it'll be very easy, at least for single-target). A sprint would help, or a bit of CC.

Wardens have a number of tools they can use to substitute for responsiveness. E.g. Shield Tactics anticipates stuns; buffs like Celebration of Skill and Dance of War anticipate incoming melee attacks (in a way). When it comes to gambits, I'd like more of this. As I mentioned, I think it's a missed opportunity to have a non-gambit interrupt, rather than an interrupt-over-time on Onslaught/Wall of Steel. I think the warden's approach to "responsiveness" should be characterized by anticipation over reaction.

That said, there are, of course, limits to what clever anticipation can do. Tanks do need to be able to respond to the unforeseen, like a missed mechanic or the death of a healer. You generally wouldn't plan for those things to happen, and they can go bad very quickly. The main thing you need there is survival--time to sort things out--and wardens have little of that. Responsive survival, i.e. a big defensive cooldown, would be great.

I've updated the second post with an outline of the new tanking cooldown skills. They don't have all the specific values, but should give you an idea of how they'll add to your tanking kit. All the specific numbers will be available on Bullroarer soon.

Let me start by saying that wardens are in need of something like Juggernaut, Thickened Hide, or Last Stand. Anything short of that is not strong enough. That's not just my opinion--it absolutely resounds from the feedback on the forums (and elsewhere, I'm sure). Raids pretty much require the ability to raise a very strong defence at a moment's notice. All other tank classes have that ability, but wardens do not. (While you could, in theory, buff warden defence to the point they don't need cooldowns, that would probably make them really overpowered any time a cooldown isn't necessary. So I'll assume that that is not an option.)

Restorative Shieldwork seems to be on the level of Thrill of Danger--not quite a game-changer, but not a skill you use in rotation, either. It is (at best) a 50% heal and 30% partial block chance for ~10 seconds. Compare e.g. Juggernaut: 100% full block chance, (quite often) also a 50% heal--guardians heal on block--and it makes you immune to stuns. Restorative Shieldwork is clearly weaker than that.

Desperate Combat doesn't boost defence. It may be used to get heal, but as written, I don't see it as a defensive cooldown. It's certainly not on the level of Juggernaut, and probably not on the level of Thrill of Danger (defensively speaking). So that leaves one more skill: For the Free Peoples.

Regarding 'For the Free Peoples' I've repeatedly heard this sentiment from players.

The tiering-up is definitely a big problem, but an even bigger one is that it's only -25% incoming damage. On a class that doesn't have any native incoming damage reduction at all (besides -10% on the shield, I guess), that's particularly problematic. (As with mitigations, so it is with incoming damage reductions: the more you have, the more valuable each additional percent point becomes. Wardens don't have much, so it's not as valuable as it might be on, say, a captain or a brawler.)

-25% incoming damage is just not that much for a 90-second cooldown, especially on a class that only has one Big Skill.
Beornings also have one Big Skill: Thickened Hide. It does have a slightly longer cooldown, but the buff you get is way better: -60% incoming damage, and a nice heal.
A guardian can equal FtFP just by hitting Redirect, with its effective cooldown of 20-25 seconds. Redirect reduces damage taken by 35%. It doesn't stack additively, but it's still better than FtFP! (Redirect, incidentally, is an awesome skill, which is why my proposed warden cooldown system is a bit like it.)
I hear brawlers also have some good cooldowns. And captains famously have a large number of skills that benefit their defence in addition to Last Stand.
So yeah: For the Free Peoples is the weakest defensive skill of the bunch by a long way.

Now, For the Free Peoples does buff the group. That's not bad. But it's not the first thing I really want in a tank. Tanks primarily protect the group by directing attacks away from the group, and only secondarily by buffing or healing the group. In order to draw attacks, a tank needs to be alive. The moment the tank dies, all the stuff they're holding splats the group, and that's a definite no-go. So on the warden, a class that has serious issues with their own survival, FtFP is evaluated as a self-survival buff--that's the bottleneck, the weakest link, the thing that really needs a skill to prop it up. Unfortunately, For the Free Peoples isn't very good at protecting the warden.

I'm sorry you feel this way. While I agree that the optimal way to play the class right now is to use gambits large-to-small, that doesn't change the fact that gambit chains in abstract are literally designed to push you in the opposite direction. If it's never optimal to use some of your 2-length gambits, then why have them at all? I understand that they have little value right now, but that doesn't mean that they ought to have little value in principle. Even with gambit chains, if you only have time to use a single gambit, you're still better off using a 4- or 5-length gambit. It's a balance.

Large-to-small is a natural consequence of the design decision to make longer gambits more powerful. I think that's a sensible decision and it results in interesting gameplay, too--you want large gambits first, large gambits take lots of masteries, so you're always encouraged to rotate through your masteries quickly. Chains go against that. In theory, I think, they are supposed to reward foresight--you realize you need three gambits in the same class ahead of time, so you get a bit of a bonus--but the proposed changes to chains go against that, too! By making chains class-unspecific, you're not rewarding foresight or adding synergy to gambits in the same class. You're simply encouraging people to use short gambits when they would rather have a long gambit, making "number of icons" an important aspect of the gambit, instead of what it does or how it's built. I don't think that should be the case.

As for "Why have them at all?". So you can lean further into that class of gambits, obviously. Have you cast Desolation, Surety, and Brink? Perhaps you'd be interested in our latest: War-Cry! You should make two-icon gambits powerful enough to allow for that. They don't need to be super weak skills. They just need to be weaker than three-icon gambits. For example, War-Cry should be better in most AoE DPS scenarios than Spear of Virtue. In practice, it isn't. (In part because you generally have priority targets, but also because the damage is just that low.)

I think the answer to "Why have [these gambits] at all?" should first be "Because they are (situationally) the best gambit to cast", and only secondarily "because it makes other gambits better", and generally not "because if I use this gambit (irrespective of what it actually does), I get a Cooldown Point, and I may need that to not die sometime in the next minute (or maybe not)".

In other words: Having a "forced" two-icon gambit in there essentially requires you to pick the least bad of a selection of gambits you don't want and more or less ignoring its effects. I feel that the specifics of the gambit should matter most and that each gambit should be viable on its own merits.

Note that this is all predicated on Cooldown Points actually being powerful and usually optimal. If they're not, chains pretty much don't matter.
(On the other hand, if it works out to "you get a bonus if you use a 2-, 3- and 4-length gambit within 15 seconds", that seems really inconsequential and as such kind of pointless.)

I should also note that I feel that the gambit system already has sufficient depth with sufficient trade-offs to consider to be a great system without chains. If you're looking to improve the warden, re-working chains (making them more important) isn't necessary. You can remove them or leave them as-is--chains are very low on the list of warden problems.

I don't disagree that Seize the Moment is fun. Having the ability to repeatedly cast an AoE morale-tap that deals a million damage to every mob in front of you would probably be fun too, but it would also be unhealthy for the design of the class and the balance between classes. I do disagree with the statement that StM is the only thing which breaks up the deterministic warden gameplay. It's only truly deterministic if you're doing a straight damage parse on a morale sponge, or running through the same short sequence repeatdely (say, switching to the next-upcoming RAT to apply Marked/Diminished and your strongest DoTs). There are plenty of situations, even for the current warden, where your rotation is not entirely deterministic, but even in those cases, StM mostly serves to 'reset' your fixed rotation to a certain point, or simply allow you to get through part of it faster (so some of your bleeds benefit from effects like Momentum when they wouldn't be able to without a StM proc).

I don't think that gambit would be fun. It'd be the only gambit you'd ever cast, so it goes completely against the warden's character. The idea is that wardens use a variety of gambits, ideally with a variety of effects (N.B. "damage" and "more damage" is not "a variety", even if one is over time and the other is burst), because "more of the same" is naturally suboptimal. (I.e. not because there's a separate mechanic that punishes you for it, but because the skills themselves discourage repeats--in casu, their benefits don't stack.)

When I say that the warden rotation is deterministic, I mean that the warden's abilities do not provide any variable outcomes, so warden rotations do not generally have multiple ways to develop. You might still swap targets or respond to changes in the fight in other ways, but that's not the rotation being variable, that's the fight being variable. And fights can't be counted on to provide cues--in practice, straight damage to a morale sponge is the baseline assumption for a boss fight. (In fact, part of building a good raid is making fights as straightforward as possible, because there's less that can go wrong. That is not a problem or criticism of encounter design--it's just common sense. A good plan is the best plan you can execute, and all that. Reducing a fight to straight damage on a morale sponge is a good start.)

Pre-nerf Quick Sweep is an example of something that did provide a variable outcome: you either get a bleed, or you get nothing (okay, it's not great, but it's variable). Depending on the outcome, you proceed in different ways. I think wardens are now reduced to No Mercy and Seize the Moment. Everything else is straightforward: cast the gambit, move on to the next. No need to see what it does.

In addition to being dynamic, I feel that Seize the Moment fits very well into the yellow warden's theme of being an out-fighter who occasionally executes an ambush (mechanically simulated through Snap Shot Ambush + Seize the Moment + Momentum/Shields Up). In practice, this isn't something you really want to do (Assailment gambits are notoriously poor, being in melee results in much higher DPS), but it's still part of the really strong theme you get from the yellow traits. I like the theme and I think it could be expanded upon. (I think it'd actually a fairly popular concept, too.)

That said, I don't disagree that Seize the Moment has... problems. I just don't think that your proposed changes are going to give the warden back what it's losing in Seize the Moment, and what it previously lost with Quick Sweep. I want you to be aware that you're taking an unusual-but-interesting piece and replacing it with a boring piece. And I'm happier with abilities that heavily shape a class than with abilities that you end up forgetting about.

(For example, the red warden traits that increase bleed damage, light damage, damage-over-time critical chance, and damage-over-time critical damage are all bad traits, even if they're technically "balanced". I don't even remember what they're called, because who cares? You trait them, then you forget about them.)

I'm not sure why you feel this is how the class should be. Just because skills like Combination Strike do meaningless damage right now does not mean that it shouldn't do meaningful damage. It is possible for a skill to have decent immediate damage while still dealing less overall DPS in the long run when compared to a DoT skill. Sometimes you want to run an instance with a large number of mobs that don't survive for very long. Why should a warden be shut out of joining groups running that instance?

I don't think instances of that type are ever difficult enough to shut a warden out. If there was one, the warden's burst damage--being a secondary aspect of the class--would not be competetive anyway, so they'd still be shut out.

That is to say: I don't think you're proposing that wardens have champion-level burst DPS. I think you're proposing a fall-back option to use in cases where your bleeds aren't viable for a while; something you do not want to do long-term. I may be wrong here. In any case, I think it's not that likely to work (champions will still do it better, for one), and also not in keeping with the warden's concept and strengths.

On the other hand, I don't think wardens should have champion-level burst DPS, because that's the champion's thing and not the warden's. A reasonable level of burst DPS as a fall-back is acceptable (if it can be made to work), but a solution that allows the use of bleeds under adverse circumstances is better.

I was discussing the Hiddenhoard raid with a friend just now, and reflects came up (they always do, in warden talks, eventually). It would be nice if the warden was able to, say, reduce the amount of reflected damage they take (through a gambit buff or trait), or to reduce the amount of damage a given target deals with reflects (through a gambit debuff). You could do something like "Gambits you cast are reflected as if their damage was halved" as a 30-second buff, and then a trait that says "subtract your Vitality from damage dealth by reflected hits" (precise values TBD). That'd be in keeping with the warden's focus on bleeds and anticipating problems.

I hope I've addressed the question of why I think this is how the class should be elsewhere in this post. In brief: because that's what gives the warden its character, makes it unique in LoTRO (and beyond), and because it's more fun that way.

Can you tell me why you think wardens should not be versatile? the whole class revolves around three basic skills being used to create sequences which can deal damage, apply bleeds, hit single-targets or multiple, heal you, provide you with defensive bonuses, or steal morale from enemies. That's not versatile? Versatility doesn't necessarily mean you should be able to quickly fill in the role of a main tank when you're traited and itemized for damage (or vice versa) but you can have flexibility within your given role in order to deal with different gameplay circumstances.

I can!

First, you're confusing "skills having a variety of effects" with "being versatile". Champions, beornings, burglars, hunters, and rune-keepers all have skills that do all of the things you mention in their DPS setups. That doesn't make them versatile, because all of those things work towards the same purpose: being a DPS. (DPS needs healing skills, too! Just like healers do things besides healing.) It is the same for the warden.

A DPS warden approaches every encounter in more or less the same way. You enter melee and apply bleeds. Yes, you use a variety of gambits to do so (including ranged bleeds and some things that don't even bleed!), and yes, you do occasionally need to use skills for purposes other than damage. But your purpose, your role, the thing you can do efficiently, is still very simple: you get in close and DPS it to death.

Very nearly all gambits do is damage and healing (including morale-taps, which are just damage and healing in one, and not a separate class of effect), with the balance being self-buffs (which broadly fall into two categories: take less damage or deal more damage). There is very little crowd control in there (Desolation in blue, Boar's Rush on crit, neither really useful as CC), and no aggro management (beyond damage and healing). What's more, in raids, you don't generally care about healing or self-buffs (if DPS) or damage (if tanking). So you're left with the one thing you do. This is, by the by, common and even standard for LotRO classes, especially in their DPS builds. But nearly all classes are more versatile than the warden!

Versatility does not have to mean that you can take on a different role, but it does mean that you can at least apply a different solution to a problem you're facing (than your primary solution, which is typically damage). Wardens don't get that. Wardens don't have the champion's AoE stuns, or the burglar's Knives Out, or the rune-keeper's Steady Hands > Word of Exaltation, or the hunter's Cry of the Hunter (a good cc skill!). Wardens get damage.

For example, consider an annoying defiler mob who's casting silences on the raid.
- A lore-master might use Lightning-Storm to kill the defiler, or Blinding Flash to daze it, or Cracked Earth to root it (if it's a short-range silence), or stick it on a bear pet and leave it in a corner somewhere. Lots of options, great versatility.
- A warden might kill it. In melee. I mean, who's going to spend all their time maybe daze-locking it with Boar's Rush? Didn't think so.

I'm actually okay with this, because (a) warden DPS is interesting in its own right (layering bleeds, pre-stacking, etcetera--the things that make warden DPS annoying and bad also make it tactically different from all other classes), and (b) wardens are really good for solo play, and they used to get some mileage out of that in instances, as well. For example, the ability to Defiant Challenge for +40% mits to take strain off the tank for a while, while kiting a bit and sustaining yourself with Resolution as needed--that was really cool. It's gone now, and I'd like to have it back (why do burglars, of all classes, get the ability to do that?). That's real warden-style versatility.

Spear-bleed aside, why should fist gambits have both better instant damage and DoT damage? I apologize, but Surety of Death is being knocked down a peg off its pedestal. A single gambit should not have your best initial damage and one of your best DoTs while being AoE. Why use any other gambits? You'll now have some gambit sequences focused on initial damage, others focused on DoT effects. Some sequences single-target, others AoE. That's what I mean by gambits having one (maybe two) effects. We don't want a single (or even a small few) gambits carrying all of your output value. Different gambits should be useful for different purposes and different contexts, and balanced accordingly.

I don't. I think that fist gambits should retain their evade buffs, and that Desolation should retain its miss chance debuff (and fear-over-time). I think that the Persevere line should retain its block buffs, that Impressive Flourish, Maddening Strike, and Dance of War should get something useful in addition to their buff (my suggestions: heal-over-time à la Persevere, taunt, 10%-15% run speed buff), and that Offensive Strike to Boar's Rush should both have an up-front effect and a long-term effect, as well.

You use other gambits because Surety doesn't stack with Surety, and Surety's initial damage doesn't add up to that much DPS (even with Seize the Moment). So that's not a problem. On landscape, mobs generally die to one Brink anyway, so there's no need to use anything else there, either, and reducing the initial damage isn't going to change that (nor should it--landscape is trivial and not until it gets buffed should you balance classes to it).

I think the natural progression of large gambits to smaller gambits means that some gambits carry more/most of your output value, and that's fine, to an extent. I do agree, for example, that Surety could be reduced, but then I also think that War-Cry should also be buffed. In fact, all fist-shield gambits could have the same (or nearly the same) damage, with increasing non-damage effects with each tier. That would also make levelling with only two-icon gambits much less painful.

I fundamentally disagree that leveling wardens should be expected to rely almost entirely on two gambits. Why have all the other ones, if two skills are all you need to get by in every circumstance? When the class was released with Mines of Moria, you earned increasingly-long gambits over time, reinforcing the idea that your basic building blocks are expanding in potential and complexity. I think that part of the learning process has been lost over time, and is frankly confusing to players who are new to the class.

Levelling wardens should be expected to rely almost entirely on two gambits because that's what they do, in practice (source: I recreationally help levelling wardens understand the class). The difficulties of new wardens are generally two:

(1) Remembering what the gambits are.
(2) Building gambits quickly.

You don't help (1) by introducing them in batches. I think it's fair to expect people to read the tooltips of new skills as they unlock them. Gambits don't appear on your bar when you unlock them, which already makes that a bit harder. "Here's 15 new gambits, enjoy" practically guarantees that people won't read the tooltips.
You don't help (2) by giving people short gambits that are still acceptably fast when cast without masteries. You should get people used to the idea of using masteries early, in a simple way: "Build Surety with FI-SH, FI, SH-SH". No need to worry about the interactions between gambits, whether SH-SH is really the right closer for Surety or whether it should be saved for something else. Just get the masteries in, that's hard enough for now.

New players don't figure out a cool rotation at level 24. They use the two (or three or five--the precise number doesn't matter, only that it's a fraction of the total available) gambits they trust to get the job done. And why shouldn't they? Low-Level-Land is incredibly easy and mostly doesn't care what you do; for those levelling to the cap, it's flyover country to boot (metagame-wise, not story-wise). There is practically no metagame at level 30, so you shouldn't expect people to use or care about their full range of skills. That will come later, once the class is properly understood.

Again, you're conflating skills and gambits right now, rather than thinking about what skills and gambits could be. In practice, the new gambit chains are much, much easier to complete than existing gambit chains, so this is really only a soft check on your ability to chain cooldown skills in rapid succession with one another.

I like gambits right now, and who is to say the skills and gambits will be what they could be? Historically, SSG has rarely hit their design goals when it comes to the warden. The last big updates were all pretty bad: boring and ineffective. So I'm a little apprehensive, for sure.

Saying that the new chains are a "soft check" doesn't particularly endear them to me. If they're that soft, why have them at all? Why not have cooldowns that just work, and gambits that just flow naturally? Just because it's an orphaned mechanic you can't bear to get rid of? Gambit chains have no natural connection to cooldowns at all. It feels like they're linked because they both happened to be on your to-do list at the same time, not because it makes sense, or because it's interesting, or even because it's convenient (it seems like a lot of extra work, to be honest). I'd be really happy if you took the easy way out and just plonked a big cooldown on top of what is, at the end of the day, a very successful design, and arguably the most unique class to come out of LotRO. (And my favourite. Do I need to say that specifically? It's my favourite.)


Okay, one extremely long post later, I just want to say thank you again. I did not expect to get a reply, much less a point-for-point rebuttal. I hope any passion you may detect does not veer too much into anger, and that you have a great Sunday.

[Demiron]

I think a small thing that would increase the Warden's ability to be dynamic in battle, would be to decrease the cooldowns of both the In the Fray stance and the Assailment stance and also make the skills a bit faster to execute. Currently it feels like a chore to swap between stances and I think Wardens who are good at swapping stances mid-battle should see more reward for it.

[auximenes]

words

Thanks for the great communication.

[Vesdragroon]

You want new players asking "Is Subscription worth it?" You want everyone to say "Why yes friend, it is." I would love to be one of those people. Thanks <3

[Helhest]

I have two minor questions about javelins:

1. Is taken into account that their base damage is much higher in comparison to spears and other one-handers? I think it is because they are range weapons, and those are all 2 handers...

2. Are there any plans to change the cosmetic system, so that we are allowed to use spears in the javelin slot? It would be amazing to see the "Infiltrator" in the javelin slot...

And thanks for posting so much on forum, considering our conserns and answering our questions!

[Krindel]

Restorative Shield-work - if you implement it as you propose, then it will not fulfil role of damage mitigation cooldown skill, it will be just 20-50% delayed heal with 30% partial Block chance buff which will last only 2-5s in most scenarios. Isn't 1m30s cooldown too long for such a skill? Guardian skills Catch a Breath and Thrill of Danger, which fulfil similar role, have much lower cooldowns. Partial Block chance buff is useless against boss big hits and bleeds, partial mitigation is usualy only 20-25%, so even on trash mobs it will not be meaningful buff and it will last only 2-5s, because usualy one tier will be consumed each second.

[Borogard]

This is not so much balance related, this related to a question earlier about asking for a buff for spear so it would be useable for Man Wardens. I would love to see one of two things for that, because I love the warden with a spear look.

1. Make it so you can wardrobe spear over sword, im unsure why this limitation even exists so I do not know the difficulty of it.
2. Change the Man racial to be a blanket weapon bonus or a different buff. I was happy when similar Mmos removed racials like this so that you have more freedom of customization.

[Elwha]

This is not so much balance related, this related to a question earlier about asking for a buff for spear so it would be useable for Man Wardens. I would love to see one of two things for that, because I love the warden with a spear look.

1. Make it so you can wardrobe spear over sword, im unsure why this limitation even exists so I do not know the difficulty of it.
2. Change the Man racial to be a blanket weapon bonus or a different buff. I was happy when similar Mmos removed racials like this so that you have more freedom of customization.

At the moment, no significant change is planned. However, the spear's inherent bleed DoT will pulse every 3 seconds (rather than every 5 seconds) which will increase its overall DPS slightly.

Just want to chime in on this. As a spear wielding only Warden, I appreciate the slight DPS boost, however I think this stance is a mistake. I would actually argue that almost all our animations were developed with spear in hand. The spear should not be left behind.

Perhaps instead of removing any racial bonuses, a workable solution would be to add +5% damage as a passive to all weapons under "Weapon Proficiencies" with a disclaimer for swords that states that it will not stack with any racial bonuses. This way if you want a little more DPS you pick spear, want a little more parry you pick sword, little more crit you pick dagger, little more speed debuff you pick club...

[thymos]

Is anything being done about Wardens DoTs not stacking in a group with more than 1 Warden? If the aim is truly to make Blue Warden a desirable tank this could be a serious issue.

[Halphast]

A note about gambits:
In general, we’ve done away with the notion of gambits having different effects in Assailment. Assailment will make all the usual gambits work at range like you’re used to, but there’s no reason for a melee gambit to have a DoT while its ranged version doesn’t.

How will you decide which versions to keep?

[Tinkerer1359]

First, thank you OnnMacMahal for your hands-on involvement on the forum. I know it must take an incredible amount of time (and a relatively thick skin!), but I applaud the effort!

Most of my concerns have been addressed except this: Please make all ranged skills ranged.

There are a few gambits (Sp-Sh for instance) that currently are melee skills in ranged play. It really messes with the gameplay if you have to run up to use a gambit while ranged.

Thank you again!

[JLotro]

We could learn from the past when the Warden was a decent tank.
There was a time when the Warden could leach threat. I realize that was implemented in a way that was difficult for devs, but that is not
the point. The point is that when the Warden had great aoe threat he had time to focus on defenses and self heals.

Currently there is not enough time to maintain all 3, threat/defenses/heals very well.
The tools are not effective enough and gambit building is too sluggish.
Warden has aggro problems, takes too much damage, and self heals are too weak to offset the lower mits of medium armour.
If the Warden was great at threat then maybe he has time to run the gambits for defense and heals.

Another thing to consider is the impact of getting stunned. It has many times more negatives for the Warden because it fouls
up the gambit building sequence. If the design could be made such that the gambit builders/masteries still queue up when stunned, and you
are only delayed at firing the gambit, it would be more fair.

Whatever changes you finally make I hope the Warden becomes a great tank, not just one that people tolerate when no other
tank is available. The effort required to learn the Warden tank should have its reward in a design that is very responsive and effective
when played well.

One other issue (non-tanking) is RE ranged dps -- the need to run close for some gambits.
That is just a pain (not fun) and seems to be a lack of thought in the ranged dps design.

[jDzames]

Just want to react to my own earlier message:

"Tanking cooldowns - doubts that it's enough"

I had one more read through the changes, and

For the Free Peoples
... Your personal damage reduction will be stronger than the group-wide effect, and the potency of both will scale depending on the number of Advanced Technique consumed.

this might actually be perfectly fine, if it's strong enough for "panic button", I guess it depends on numbers only (potency > duration I'd guess)... So I take back what I said and hope for a good result.

Also as others said, thanks for the great communication! Looking forward!

[jDzames]

However "Restorative Shield-work" - idk, this looks nice but doesn't seem to be a real game-changer. I mean it is somehow useful, but doesn't solve warden problems that much (defence part is not that big and heals should ideally be solved elsewhere)... I'd happily trade this for other skills being stronger (as warden there are already more than enough skills to use), in case you consider that eg due to the balance aspect.

I wonder what others think about this particular skill, and how does all the changes look after testing. Anyway, thanks, what a time to be alive.

[fealegwe2]

Never surrender should be an " OH #### " button skill. An on-the-demand defensive heal.

NS could be reworked into a damage preventing bubble that lasts 10 secs ( could be longer and heal more with relevant tracery ) and heals for 35 % ( more with slotted tracery ) on expiration.
Considering the Captain, guardian , Beorning and even Bracing Attack from champ i don' think that heal is too much

it should be easy to implement. you have the animations from the Shield Mastery that can be copied..maybe just a different colouring.

This oh #### skill would really rectify the Survival of the warden.

And now on to threat generation....

i propose that the Goad gambit be reworked into an AoE threat copy similar to Captain's Elendil roar.
and that Defnsive Strike and Deft Strike be made into single target force taunts.
That would solve the Threat Aggro issues the Warden has.

Oh and please give Resounding challenge ( i suppose its been reworked to be a dot in ranged and melee ) an initial burst damage. At present Ranged resounding challenge hits but only does first damage after 4 seconds. In contrast to resounding challenge in melee which does AoE damage but one Hit and no DoT

[fealegwe2]

From the diary:
Tentatively, Strong Foundations gives your gambit builders up to -2s Mastery cooldowns of the same type. So for example (with the trait) Quick Thrust would reduce the active cooldowns of Sp-Sp, Sp-Sh, and Sp-Fi by 2 seconds. This won't reset all of your Mastery skills, and it won't let you use the same mastery 3 times in a row like StM does, but it will mean that when you're leaning hard on gambits of a certain type (if you're trying to pump out lots of Shield-Spear gambits to heal in quick succession, for example) using a normal gambit builder when you have to will help get some of your Mastery skills off cooldown.


the other resource is a skill called Rapid Technique, which simply consumes Advanced Technique to reset all of your masteries ever 2 seconds. This also won't let you click the same mastery 3x in a row, and it has a much longer cooldown than Seize the Moment, but it will let you build several gambits rapidly when you need to.

StM was not cluncky or unreliable as you say in your Diary.
it would proc with every 2nd Ranged Gambit used.

Instead of a Battle prep in-combat mechanic we now have to use 2 piece , 3 piece , 4 piece gambits and then cash out a clicky to reduce our masteries down to 2 seconds ( best case scenario)

please tell me how this is a more fluid and more damage potential than StM ??

and because you tying Marked target to a specific gambit chain... its forcing DPS wardens to use that one primarily.

i know you trying to make the warden more fluid and filled with more variety leaving the player with more possiblilities, but as far as i can imagine the consequences of the new rework- Warden will do the same 2, 3 , 4 piece ramp up to cash out a clicky and then start over again on same marked target line (because dots come off cooldown.)
this making it a one trick pony

[Perks]

StM was not cluncky or unreliable as you say in your Diary.
it would proc with every 2nd Ranged Gambit used.

Instead of a Battle prep in-combat mechanic we now have to use 2 piece , 3 piece , 4 piece gambits and then cash out a clicky to reduce our masteries down to 2 seconds ( best case scenario)

please tell me how this is a more fluid and more damage potential than StM ??

and because you tying Marked target to a specific gambit chain... its forcing DPS wardens to use that one primarily.

i know you trying to make the warden more fluid and filled with more variety leaving the player with more possiblilities, but as far as i can imagine the consequences of the new rework- Warden will do the same 2, 3 , 4 piece ramp up to cash out a clicky and then start over again on same marked target line (because dots come off cooldown.)
this making it a one trick pony

STM was 100% rng therefor it can be unreliable. ur high saying it would proc with every 2nd ranged gambit used.

[fealegwe2]

STM was 100% rng therefor it can be unreliable. ur high saying it would proc with every 2nd ranged gambit used.

Let me guess...your crit rating was low?

in the trait tree it it is specc'd to proc 1 out of every 2 crits on ranged gambits... get your finesse and crit maxxed you can reliably ( and not RNG dependant ) build your rotation around it procc'ing

Ranged resounding challenge followed by the the small ranged 2 quick sweep gambits ALWAYS procc'd StM for me.
then i change to melee stance to get the 20% damage buff and fire off 3 quick gambits and swop to ranged stance and carry on
so, no Yello ward was not about STAYING in range and yes you can count on it procc'ing regularly. You just need to crit regularly

[Halphast]

I had already argued a lot of things so I didn't want to add this point, but fealegwe2 made it and I agree. StM with a high crit rating activates MOST of the time. It's a very unlucky fight if it never pops. So to everyone saying it's too "feast or famine" it's more like feast, feast, feast, feast, rarely famine. Plus, if you're fluent with every possible respelling for your main gambits, even if StM doesn't pop you can still squeeze out a few quick gambits with the remaining masteries.

[Constrictions]

Yes, ranged gambit effects will overwrite melee gambit effects and vice versa. Ditto heals. You won't be able to double up on particular DoTs or HoTs by stance swapping.

Your 'regular' shield gambits will give you a significant amount of defensive value, in both reducing damage and healing you. In the very narrow context of reducing unavoidable damage, the only relevant stats are Mitigation %, -Incoming Damage, and Negated Damage. In that department, you might be a little behind some other tanks at times, but I'd like players to see things holistically on Bullroarer before jumping to any conclusions there. (Some players have been known to exaggerate and overstate the ability of other tanks to pump those values as well)

Tangential question - how familiar are you with the original design philosophy of the class, as developed by Graal?

I think quite a few things you list here are very good improvements, and I have lots of thoughts. I unfortunately have not logged in for a long time because of my despondance with this class, so I can't speak from much experience of how wardens are right now.

With this said, here's some things which I think are important to consider from this original philosophy. Obviously some things have changed, but I mention this because I find it hard to see how the Warden is going to receive any lasting changes if changes aren't consistent with the spirit of this philosophy, and what the Gambit system was there to do.

• Given the medium armour, wardens were designed to have a strong passive mit gap which is made up for by (1) very very strong BPE (passively built in, not on gambits), (2) a stance that granted very very high ICMR, and (3) the ability to heal oneself comparably as good as a dedicated healer.
  
• While Wardens were given these relatively extreme self-healing abilities, this was countenanced by the heals having very, very high power costs. To manage power costs, you had to swap out of your ICMR stance to an ICPR stance, and this still wouldn't be enough to stop the self heals from completely draining your power pool within a 20sec window (keep in mind combat was much slower).
  
• Wardens were able to manage their own power with dark before the dawn, which granted them ~20-25% of their power pool per use, but this gambit was only accessible when at 50% hp.
  
• Given the above, warden self-sufficiency relied on the ability to do what was called morale-surfing, which was the key part of the skill cap. Extremely skilled Wardens who optimised their ability to morale surf were able to do some 6man instances like Sammath Gul without healers (or more often the case with captains, whose healing was moderate at best). Such feats, along with the ability to morale surf ones way to victory in max tier 3man content solo was the peak indicator of a persons mastery of the gambit system - this was extremely difficult to do.

If the warden is going to work, and last, I think there needs to be some sort of return to this kind of understanding of how gambits should be managed.

A key concern I have is about gambit chain bonus-type stuff. This was not actually part of the original warden design philosophy, and was (IIRC) added in as part of Update 6, which provided very sweeping and fundamentally messy changes to the wardens kit (Defiant Challenge a skill for 90% mits ), to make them viable.

Some other concerns I have had with the warden has included things like

• The inconsistent scalability of morale taps, an issue ever since RoI launch
  
• The inconsistent scalability of self-heals, an issue ever sine RoI launch
  
• Out of place mitigation defensive buffs (e.g., Defiant Challenge), an issue ever since U6
  
• Too little passive mitigation stats (I.e., BPE, Partial BPE, ICMR) + Too much defensive stats tied up in gambits and gambit chains, an issue ever since HD rework
  
• Gambit chains in general; why? Building bonuses into going small->large decreases the versatility of choices one can make with the gambit system. There was a good reason why there was 'lesser' versions of gambits like shield mastery (Sh-fi-sp, vs Shield mastery with Sh-fi-sp-sh). For example, if several shield masteries were on cooldown, and you were anticipating having to begin a particular chain of gambits in response to some new mobs (Say, Exultation of battle line for morale taps), but needed some extra defensive stats to BPE with an otherwise unused mastery, you could fit a lesser version of the one you wanted in between your chains instead of having to wait an extra few seconds to get the full shield mastery buff before starting the chain you need. Before gambit chain bonuses, it didn't matter whether you used the high-tier gambits (e.g., Exultation of battle) before the lower ones (e.g., fierce resolve). Max effectiveness of gambit chains simply required that you use both, but it was up to your discretion what order to use them in. Some encounters, you might want EoB first to give you some cushion to deal with lots of unexpected mobs, while you kited to back it up with fierce resolve. By stacking too many benefits in 'tiering up' gambit chains from small-> large you create big incentives against this kind of versatility in play. Not only this, we have also seen that when the warden is doing it tough because it has not scaled well for the 100th billion time, that wardens end up being forced to use these chain bonus type stuff to scrape every possible advantage at remaining viable. These sorts of changes seem very top-down, in the sense that they are funelling a particular meta for the gambit system. Conceptually, this seems super out of place for a system that is inherently designed to put optimal skill order up to the player.
  
• Over-reliance on DoT damage. DoT damage was always a core element of warden DPS, but for so long it has practically been the only DPS. There was a time when Wardens Triumph criticals could hit as hard as some Hunters Heartseeker or Merciful Shot. To balance the direct damage with DoT damage opens up more versatility; not only does the ability to do direct damage with the sp-sh/sp-fi line allow more responsiveness to swarms of mobs, it also creates more versatility in other situations. For example, a warden tank who is not taking much damage, or in a DPS phase can chuck on some DoTs in between his self heal/morale tap chain.
  
• Thematically, the trait lines are meant to be oriented around empowering particular Gambit lines. Blue traits corresponded to empowering Shield gambits, red to spear, and yellow to fist. The original idea for fist traits was poorly executed, but kind of cool; additional threat generation, damage, and CC. War-cry could be traited to provide a 15 second effect that every 3 seconds would have a 15% chance of a 3 second fear, for example. That would apply to all 10 targets it hit. Desolation fear was amped to a 75% chance and extended duration, and given three more targets. It was so ####ing funny to tank in this line, and strangely effective in many instances with lots of mobs, because you would just cause entire stacks of orcs to constantly run away in fear, run in to get a couple of hits, then just go back to running away. It would be nice to see yellow line become oriented around empowering fist gambits with some cool utility effects. I would love for it to become an alternative utility-based tanking line.
  
• The historical creep of moving gambits and their effects to skills. Defiant Challenge was the first, but not the last. Conceptually, we had some great options, like Way of the Warden, which was a legendary trait which merged all of our stances effects together and amplified them as long as we were in combat. Granted, these didn't help with bosses like Durchest - but bosses that did attacks that couldn't be BPE'd was inherently anathema to the design of the warden. Frankly, non-BPE hits seemed to me to become both a bad and lazy instance design decision. Nobody seemed to know what to do about it at the class design level, and instance designers seemed to start implementing non-BPEable super hits as though it was giving them some kind of high better than sex and drugs. There have been some really cool and interesting proposals over the years about how Wardens could be given some tools/changes to their kit to help them deal with these sorts of mechanics, but they've never been considered. Instead, everyone has just opted to go for classic skill-type cooldowns, which I think is a super big shame. I think it was a mistake to give wardens reactive skill cooldowns, and I still think it will be a mistake because of how significantly this departs from that original design philosophy, which is so heavily tied up in the nature of the gambit system which has still largely remained the same.
  
• Warden threat management. There was a time warden gambits from the sh-fi line was capable of leeching threat from other members of the fellowship/raid. This, in addition to excellent threat generation mechanics (e.g., precise blow and exultation of battle with very strong, stackable threat over time effect) made tanking extremely enjoyable, because it was all there instead of a force taunt. Because you couldn't just click defiant challenge and BAM you have aggro now forever, threat was something that you had to constantly be vigilant about while also thinking through what gambit lines you want to be using, while also thinking about positioning and so forth. When these threat mechanics were gutted from tanks and the game, and replaced with the extremely oversimplified World of Warcraft damage-amplification mechanic, the warden lost a really key element of what made the class so unique, fun and challenging. Since that change, and the change to make all force taunts threat copy skills, tanking is super super super super super boring. Keeping threat ended up just meaning you fire off defiant challenge (and later, the javelin skill), and then occasionally use your DPS gambits in largely the exact same ways that you would if you were in red-line as a DPS role. So dull, and just another thing that has led to wardens being thrown things completely inconsistent with the gambit system, just so they can cope/be viable.

Implicitly, I hope you can see in my little rant here that there are a lot of things I like about what you have proposed and are working on. For my concerns, I hope I have laid them out clearly enough for you to consider.

I will say, that out of everyone who has worked on this class since Isengard, you seem to have really taken the time to try and think through this carefully, and with respect to a lot of the ideas that came before you. It is a big step forward for this class from sweeping changes with developers leaving notes in on skill tooltips at expansion launch saying things like "what is this [gambit] for?".

Much respect to you.

[Constrictions]

Let me start by saying that wardens are in need of something like Juggernaut, Thickened Hide, or Last Stand. Anything short of that is not strong enough. That's not just my opinion--it absolutely resounds from the feedback on the forums (and elsewhere, I'm sure). Raids pretty much require the ability to raise a very strong defence at a moment's notice. All other tank classes have that ability, but wardens do not. (While you could, in theory, buff warden defence to the point they don't need cooldowns, that would probably make them really overpowered any time a cooldown isn't necessary. So I'll assume that that is not an option.)

What you have in brackets simply was the design of the warden. It was not only not not an option, from the very beginning it was explicitly meant to be the option this entire time.

When never surrender was first introduced, it was done after extreme community pressure to provide wardens with a way of regaining threat after being defeated in a boss fight. It had a 15 minute cooldown that could not be reduced, it could only be used after being revived in combat, it ate a % of current power and morale and did nothing except put you at the top of the threat chain. Also most importantly, it completely disabled all your masteries for the duration of combat, which you had to use 3/5 trait slots for. Who did this? The very same person who designed the warden from scratch.

Wardens should absolutely be designed so that they don't need cooldowns. The tricky part is giving wardens equivalent means in a way that has suitable trade-offs. So many of the game systems have changed over the years to be much more forgiving than when the game was first released, to the point where - by comparison - there are virtually no trade-offs anymore.

The problem with immediate, reactive cooldowns like pledge, warriors heart etc on the warden, is that they dont fit with the nature of the gambit system - like, at all. They are just a step to Wardens becoming subpar pseudo-guardians. That's not an assumption, either. Every single time a change has been made in that direction, that is basically what has ended up happening.

[Quazi-moto]

check boxes to consider

1. Mitigations attached to force taunt - the mitigations attached to Defiant Challenge should be moved to the Defiance stance (ressurection requested) which did assist in providing versatility.

2. Javelin damage/speed/effect vs. melee weapon for gambits - There is a distinct difference between ranged gambits (assailment stance), namely bigger damage from javelin but slower. A number of gambits are different based on whether they are javelin led or melee led. Which leads to the necessary need to stance dance to effectively select the most effective gambit.

3. Apply range to all gambits for assailment stance - Why are some assailment gambits ranged, but others aren't...annoying af. Some gambits don't have a ranged version...also annoying af. When in ranged "stance" your pew pew is ranged, why wouldn't your gambits be?

4. Battleprep - Take that off GCD please, and the builders too. I have mentioned the best way to counter lag for wardens is to remove everything from the builders in combat (like when battle prep is active but also remove skill animations) and just put your GCD on the gambit. So it would be something like this 3232-4 GCD 12312-4 GCD, so the builders are free form like typing and pressing (4) executes and 4 then has the GCD before being able to be used again giving you time to que up another gambit. Personally I'm better at remembering the 123 sequencing of building a gambit than wedging masteries in between. Alternatively having 5 or 6 battle prep skills that you can store to use outside of combat.

5. gambit chains - The premise on paper is that your building up for best effect. An anecdote that I have heard is like this: A university has buildings scattered about the campus. Purposely they did not build sidewalks, and waited for the students to create the pathways that they would then use to build sidewalks, as the students will find the path of least resistance. No matter how structured you make chaos that is a gambit, the end user will find the most efficient use, which is rarely what the original design was intended for.

6. In combat run buff - (only tank without one) Pick an underutilized gambit to have, or make a new one. Precise blow line has no 5 gambit, or include some new gambits with double builders like 1-2-2-3 or 3-3-1.

7. Big battle - the worst class to play, so much in and out of combat

8. Class traits - seriously underwhelming. 5 points in On the Offence ---15% increase in Offence Strike morale-tap damage + 5% morale tap damage... has any warden ever taken this?

9. Legendary traits - also very underwhelming, lack of options

10. JoDF - capstone skill that functions so poorly. fires in a horizontal, very narrow, direction. Misses if there is a battle on a hill or stairs, lag, ect. damage is meh.

11. I'd love to see all clickies removed. Defiant challenge/warning shot should be part of the gambit system. Do not need javelin skills as we have assailment stance (current javelin skills should be incorporated into ranged gambits). Do not need interrupt skill as we have The Boot line. Ambush/crit strike need to be usable in combat or just removed. First Aid should also be part of your gambit options.

12. debuff cleanse - move to gambit, to allow multiple uses, and a gambit cleanse over time would be amazing for tanks

13. Tactical healing - all classes should have this attached to their main stat, wardens and burglars do not. I think % based healing is fine, it just means you have to account for it across the board. Of course that means there should be some adjustments for both players and npcs.

Probably 100 more things to consider, but have already been mentioned in some way or another. I think the original and defacto most important part of warden is the gambit system, and the chaotic nature allow for really bad wardens (like me) and some immortal untouchable wadens. I understand this is very hard for a developer to contain. The reality is that the the high end warden should be the paradigm that creates this "I want to be like that guy" kind of longing. "Oh I wish I was as good as Mr. Waden" should be what /World chat discusses when talking about wardens.

[Hartten]

Again Thank you very much OnnMacMahal for all your answers to this thread. This past months updates on the launcher linking threads like this one and the captains, plus the Twitch feed is a great step in the right direction and is exactly what the custimer base was asking for in the thread of Open Communications. That said, I just want to interject a little realism here and say it is only the first step, I am looking forward to seeing you take another.

I a trying to take my step by hopefully not Ranting.

Even tho most of the changes will not affect my play style, I do hope you can make the Warden viable for all levels and aspects of the game, from Landscape to Raiding.

What I found most helpful to me in this thread was being able to read of other play styles and patterns of game mechanics that others were using. I really learned a lot form Sindhol and Jakreal and would love to see Wardens return to the days that Constrictions wrote about. My biggest self road block to fully understanding and utilizing this class is my main is a Burg, and he does {not} have stances, so I never understood the dynamics of changing stances. If there was a archer or spell caster and I wanted to take it down from range I would just go into my virtues change my Trait Tree to Yellow, then change my LI's to a range spec pair and lastly switch stances, thus being able to us all the bonuses generated. But mainly I run landscape in red line trait tree, use solo mobs to buff myself, then use my range attacks and fist to gather mobs until I run to a spot to use high chain DOT/aoes. If I am lucky and I kill the group and the gambit doesn't drop I try to run to the next before the gambit expires. If I can cast that high end gambit on this mob, I kite him to the next. Many time after casting these gambit you can stay and use this mob to buff yourself if needed or just kite, the mob is already dead, it just doesn't know it.

So if nothing else just learning how stances actually work as oppose to trait trees has given me new skills and styles of playing for both my second main the Warden, and my many Mini alts. I was also playing my Mini like a Burg. A suggestion to any U-Tube uploaders of the game, maybe make a video on how the stance system works in those classes that allow for swapping.

Lastly, thanks again OnnMacMahal, I feel calm knowing that you are at least reading everything, before I felt as if talking to a wall. And since you are reading this and even tho it should be elsewhere, please, please when you get to the Burg do not remove any Trait Trees. For me each tree allows me to play my Burg as if he is 3 different classes each with a unique style of play and role. The only change I would like to see that would help me in my play style is the way the agro of a Mob in landscape affects Force March and the speed boost as I mentioned previously.

[Sirlat]

For the moment I am cautiously optimistic.

There are some things here I am excited about, but most of them are more about quality of life rather than real changes.

No animation on builders in Battle prep (yay!)
Less animation on builders in general in combat (really hoping this helps with lag)
No different effects between skills based on stance
General tanking / mit buffs.
Really like the more flexible chains

Btw speaking of QoL ..... Don't suppose DC can take effect before the animation ends?
.. really sucks to have Hots on you so mobs run right for the healer, hit DC, watch the healer die cause the taunt hasnt taken effect yet, then have everything turn on you as the FT finally takes effect. Or the fun "run with the mobs" as you wait for the FT to go off to make sure they are still in range.


I played warden from the moment it first came out (guard was my main prior) as a tank. Its been ups and downs on tanking, and I'm concerned that the current additions to defensive skills don't make up for the main concerns for warden tanking (BPE, One shots, lower mits, safety skills).


Desperate Fist - FT but not threat copy - why?
One of the main issues with wardens tanking (outside of mits) is that you have to constantly spam rotations to make you viable as a tank (keep your mits up, keep your hots up, keep your bpe buffs up) ... oh yeah, AND you have to maintain threat on everything while you are doing it. The other tanks are really just working to keep a few self buffs up but 90% focused on keeping threat and reacting to changes (oh add wave incoming, let me aoe FT then start building threat on them)

if we had a reliable way to keep threat up, so we could instead focus on making sure we have hots/buffs up that might be viable (assuming we can actually take the hard hits) - I know its pretty much impossible to give us heavy, but in Determination trait you could remove the med armor penalty to caps and add PASSIVE buff to armor/mits to make us comparable to heavy.

Restorative Shield-work
The moral heal helps, but what good does +30 Partial chance do for all the fights where you cant BPE?
Also this one says "This skill will require at least one Advanced Technique", so does this one require a chain first or not? (None of the rest of the descriptions say that)

You say wait till bullroarer and see, which is fair i guess, but I just have one question then (as I assume this is being tested on palantir). I know there is a lot of information that cant be shared but this is a more general question.

With these changes, has anyone successfully main-tanked HOR 4 or HOA 3/4 with a warden?If that is still impossible then it doesn't really matter what the changes are, at least for tank spec.

[JLotro]

Dear DEV, what would you think of this?

1) No animation or delays on builders ever, and also no immediate dps from them. They just queue.
2) All the results occur when the fully built gambit is finally fired off.
3) When stunned you can still build a gambit; but the stun delays you from firing the gambit.

Gambits could be built very fast, faster than now, which makes it feel responsive.
The cooldown on the fire-gambit button becomes the controlling factor that devs can adjust.
It probably means that masteries are not even needed since the basic builders just queue.

I think this would help in several areas:

1) Feels less sluggish overall.
2) A more fair form of stuns which is on par with what other classes experience.
3) Reduced network I/O since builders are just queued in the client and the network I/O is deferred to when they fire.
4) Less impact from lag that causes missed keystrokes and gambit mistakes.
5) Simpler gambit logic in the code.