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  1. #76
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    Jun 2011
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    Blue (Traits)
    I have posted the things I like in Green which can be kept in the way you designed them.
    The things in Red need a change or an increased buff or update.
    The things in Orange is something I am unsure about.

    The 10% proc heal from specializing in Hands of Healing has been removed. This heal was inconsequentially small and added an unnecessary RNG element to core healing output.

    No problems with this, seems fine!

    Tactics: Focus
    This heal has changed from an over-time heal to an instant 2% heal.
    The ‘Focus’ buff is now 5% Incoming Healing, 3% Resistance, and 2% Tactical Mitigation.

    I rather would like to see 2% Physical Mitigation in Blue and 2% Tactical Mitigation in Yellow for the group. Tanks usually benefit in more raids and instances more from tactical mitigation rather then Physical mitigation. This is something you could revert.

    Readied Strike
    This trait will no longer cause Valiant Strike to apply the Battle-Readied state. Instead, it doubles the healing potency of Revealing Mark (from 2% to 4%).

    For Red you shouldn't remove it from Shadow's Lament, but I do not see any issues with it for Valiant Strike in Blue, higher potency to revealing mark makes sense in blue line.

    Tactician’s Prowess
    Tactician’s Prowess increases Healing Critical Magnitude by 10% and decreases the cooldown of Defensive Strike by 5 seconds.

    Seems fine

    Song-brother’s Call
    This trait has been replaced by the ‘Reform the Lines’ trait. The Song-brother’s call skill has been removed.

    Would like to see this change reverted, the buff you received from Song-Brother's Call was nice. As I would like to see Shield of the Dunedain back in yellow as a cooldown, I rather see ''Reform the Lines'' as a Capstone trait for blue instead of SoD.

    Blessing of the Song
    This trait is essentially unchanged, but note that you will no longer gain the same benefits given to your -brother. To-Arms will improve your Outgoing Healing, and Inspire will restore a small amount of your power over time.

    Seems fine

    Inspiriting Presence > Gift of Spirit
    The current effect from this trait has been replaced by a new effect:
    Hits you land with melee skills will give you stacks of ‘Inspiriting.’ Each stack will give you 2% Outgoing Healing, up to 5 stacks. At 5 stacks, you are able to use ‘Gift of Spirit’ a skill which consumes all stacks to significantly heal a targeted ally. [note: in Bullroarer 1 this trait erroneously states that the effect tiers up with melee skill critical hits. You no longer need to crit to tier up this effect]

    Positive change and something the blue captain needed. This skill allows crosshealing for the blue captain which has been his struggle for most raidgroups in the first place.

    ______________________________ __________
    Skilled Hands and Dignified Spectacle
    These two traits have merged into Skilled Hands, since they already give nearly the same bonuses. The final Skilled Hands bonus will give you +5% Melee & Tactical Damage, and +10% Outgoing Healing.

    The outgoing healing is nice, the melee and tactical damage is in a healing spec with a shield and sword not adding anything

    Bolstered Resolve
    This trait’s max value has changed from 20% to 10%. This is part of an overall reduction in critical magnitude effects, and the loss in value has been compensated for in higher base healing strength.

    I am skeptical about this. Before the Captain used to have multiple hots to keep the group healed over time, now that the emphasis lies on more burst and singular heals captains could use that critical magnitude more then ever. The general healing of a Captain is in comparision to what it was not stronger, so I do not understand this change. Other add HOT back to certain skills rather then putting the emphasis on healing your shield-brother.


    Blood of Númenor > Escape from Darkness
    Rank 3 of this trait (which turns Escape from Darkness into Cry of Vengeance) is now a trait set bonus, making Cry of Vengeance a Hands of Healing specialization-only skill upgrade.

    Is it possible to remove the induction on the Escape from Darkness? In that case it makes sense to have this in blue spec only.

    Revealing Mark
    The trait is unchanged, but the Revealing Mark heal has been reduced from 4% to 2%. The 4% heal is only be attainable with the ‘Readied Strike’ trait bonus.

    Seems fine, TBC

    Gallant Display
    This trait has been removed, since you already have the Gallant Display skill.

    Seems fine, TBC

    Astute Hands
    Critical Magnitude has been reduced from 20% to 10%.

    Revert it back, see above!

    Honourable Blow
    This effect will only be triggered by Inspire, rather than Valiant Strike.

    I don't like the fact that this is only useful on a target with ''Revealing Mark'' needs some sort of update imo.

    Fellowship of the Song > Fellowship of the Shield
    The fellowship-wide effect from To Arms will be (traited to maximum potency)
    -5% Incoming Damage
    +2% Damage

    Reform the Lines > Shield of the Dúnedain
    With this trait and skill granted by your Hands of Healing specialization, this capstone trait position in the tree will be replaced by the ‘Shield of the Dúnedain’ trait, granting you the eponymous skill.

    You want to make blue Captain more viable, by removing the best cooldown or useful skill it has in Yellow. Instead you add a negating damage skill and potential heal effect back in Yellow with ''At the Fore''. If you really intend on making tanking cappies stronger and being useful in a raid you revert this change and put SoD back in Yellow as a Capstone. All Captains needed in the first place was not a massive change, but in blue it just needs more abilities to crossheal. ''Gift of Spirit'' makes it good as an extra capstone next to ''Reform the Lines''. For the rest most of the Blue Captain was already really good as it was.

    Valour
    This trait’s effect has been replaced (it was a fairly weak and unreliable heal). It has been replaced by an effect which adds a bonus heal for your Shield-brother to most of your melee skills. These heals will scale with the damage of their relevant skills. As a rule of thumb, if a trait, tracery, buff, etc increases the damage value on a skill's tooltip, it will also increase that skill's Valour healing.
    Skills affected: Sure Strike, Defensive Strike, Cutting Attack, Grave Wound, Pressing Attack, Devastating Blow, and Blade of Elendil.

    Good change! I like the idea behind this, Valour always has been fairly weak!

    Blue (Skills)
    Gallant Display
    When traited blue, Gallant Display hasn’t changed much, though it is now an AoE skill. When it hits a target, it applies a moderate fellowship-wide heal, and both its potency and power cost increase if used again within a short window. This bonus is no longer consumed by Inspire (you use Inspire so frequently that it’s practically impossible to tier up the Gallant buff for Gallant Display itself if Inspire consumes the effect).

    Doesn't seem like much of a change, damage is not the main role for a healer anyways.

    Valiant Strike
    Valiant Strike no longer acts as both a finisher and a Battle-Ready opener. It only acts as a finisher, allowing you to better hold onto it at times, so you can more optimally use it for healing rather than primarily to keep your battle-state cycle moving.
    Valiant Strike no longer has AoE healing/over time. Instead, it is a much stronger single-target heal for your shield-brother. If used without an active Shield-brother, its heal reverts to a weak fellowship heal over time.

    Feels a bit so-so to me, I like the idea you can hold longer to it, but Captain always has been a class relying on multiple hots and nothing really seemed to be wrong with it. The captain just needs more options for crosshealing rather then massive big heals with nothing in between.

    Standard of Honour
    The frequency and potency of healing has been increased. The duration of the banner has been reduced to 15 seconds.

    Back to 30 seconds, just like the other lines. Even so Blue-Banner is still not that great. I rather have it heal it like 2% of health every tick for everyone in it, then a 60k thats not doing much in the first place. This way it is also more beneficial to tanks with more health.

    Reform the Lines
    In addition to its prior effects, Reform the Lines will now make your entire fellowship act as if they are your Shield-brother for 10 seconds, allowing them to briefly benefit from your brother-targeted skills and effects.

    Decent change, but make it a capstone, not a trait as a random filler.

    Shield of the Dúnedain
    This skill has switched from the yellow capstone to the blue capstone, but is otherwise unchanged.

    Switch back, It completely breaks the Yellow Captain at this point. Also make it apply to himself again rather then just others. Make ''Reform the Lines'' the new capstone in blue instead and replace ''At the Fore'' with ''Shield of the Dunedain'' in Yellow.

    Defensive Strike
    Defensive Strike is making a return as a second skill which puts you into a Battle-readied state. In the blue spec, it has a 10 second cooldown and requires you to be in melee range (so it’ll be functionally very similar to how Valiant Strike works right now, for battle state maintenance).

    Seems fine

    Song-brother’s Call
    This skill has been removed. Note that the Leader of Men tree has a new skill called 'Song-brother's Call' which is entirely unrelated to this removed skill.

    Then why remove it?

    These following things are the most important things to change or revert in blue stance:
    1. Banner buff needs to be back at 30 seconds, not 15. Currently this skill is one of the sole purposes to trait for a cappy regardless of line.

    2. Blue line on Captain has always been very good functioning as it is, but never was taken to raids for the following reasons:
    It did not over as good crosshealing as other classes did as it was full reliant on heals or skills like ''Reform the Lines'' and ''Words of Courage''. Now that you have added ''Gift of Spirit'' we have another additional big heal for crosshealing, which might already be enough. The healing over time on the Captain made it unique and now it feels a bit like a Beorning waiting massive gaps for AoE healing skills.
    Secondly for having a captain in another spec in your group having another captain didn't feel as useful as a Red Capt, Yellow Capt and Blue Capt are all specing sword and shield in the first place nowadays. Maybe not for solo content but for raids there are no captains running around with a 2h weapon in blue and yellow at least if they are smart.

    3. Shield of the Dunedain should go back to Yellow ASAP, I can't keep emphasising it enough. Maybe you feel it is too strong to use it on yourself and making other tanking classes redundant, but at this stage Captain has no purpose in any line, rather then to be a 13th raidmember to use the 10% morale buff every 20 minutes. ''At the Fore'' doesn't need a damage component in a line that does not provide anything to damage anyway rather then surviving. Now it feels you are putting Shield of the Dunedain back in blue to make the blue line of a Captain viable again in raids and such. One should not go at the cost of the other.

    4. Put the emphasis of the blue captain in crosshealing and not stealing cd's from other lines and putting wrong emphasis on other lines.
    - Gift of Spirit and Reform the Lines as Capstones, Gift of Spirit is a good burst heal to crossheal someone else in ''the other'' group.
    - Make Gallant Display rather heal more targets then hit more targets. This way you can also benefit from more crosshealing rather then rely on just ''Words of Courage'' and ''Reform the Lines''

  2. #77
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    Jun 2017
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    I see a lot of asking for SoD back into yellow, which I support, although I don't support allowing Captains to use this skill on themselves again - and in fact, I don't see why there is such hate to the new skill, At the Fore either, a 50% damage negation with up to a 50% morale heal afterwards is not terrible by any means. Having SoD only useable on another target is a great source of defensive utility especially in regards to your other tank and/or healer and/or in general anyone being focused at that time - at 130 when it was made ally only, it really needed to be ally only, between that and having Last Stand up every 1m to 1m 30s (due to a stupid set bonus that should never existed) yCappy was kinda broken when it came to any type of group content. No, we no longer have the set bonus, but in terms of raw 1:1 tankiness, Captains don't exactly struggle heavily vs a single target, they never have, and at the fore will fill that role of a missing self-cooldown, though, I would argue the cooldown is perhaps a bit longer than I would like, 3minutes would be more ideal.

    • This being said, bCaptain does need a tank cooldown of some kind, and reform the lines needs a serious revision on how it functions.
    • I would like to see Captains own personal damage increased further, especially in Yellow, simply because it feels terrible having to rely almost solely on force taunts in order to get aggro - the 9 target Gallant Display (which is hopefully in a 360 around the captain, and not just a 90 or 180 arc, I didn't have the opportunity to test), if it actually hits hard enough will do wonders for Cappy AoE aggro.
    • Shield-Brothers Call being made a weaker version of Shield of the Dunedain does indeed make zero sense, why bother removing the skill in the first place just to give back a weaker variant.
    • The fellowship variant of Yellow To Arms is woefully weak in comparison to its live version and offers very little, the brother variant of Yellow To Arms forces you to use your brother skill on a healer where the current live version can be used by anyone.
    • SiN, whilst the tooltip has increased massively, the fact that in order to get it's full benefit you have to be near other people again, makes this skill woefully weak, as pointed out being no more than 20k a tick when you are alone, either increase the radius, up the tooltip, or reduce the required number of people (in fact all 3 would be ideal).
    • As everyone else has said, Banner back at 30s really is a must, I lamented that I would be okay with 20s if you are completely dead set on lowering the duration, but, realistically no, Banner SHOULD remain at 30s.
    • Inspire healing and power restore (especially after the power changes) should be fellowship wide in all 3 lines, there was no reason to change this when you have removed gallant display healing & halved revealing mark in red & yellow.
    • Noble mark is still going to remain totally unused.
    Last edited by Hephburz-2; Feb 11 2023 at 07:21 PM.

  3. #78
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    Oct 2007
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    21
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    The old revealing mark was stupid - your DPS group NEVER required a healer, because when you have a hunter putting out 600k+ DPS, and 15% (or 10% in your suggestion) of that is returned in healing, for what reason do they ever need a designated healer, you'd be healing yourself for 60k HPS, just keep hitting stuff and you'll never die unless you get one shotted.

    The new revealing mark is stupid - all it does is encourage EVERYONE to morale stack, in fact, ALL % based healing skills do is encourage people to morale stack.

    In regards to your comments about Oathbreakers, many fights in Lotro are designed with these burst/nuke phases in their mechanics, and without things like Oathbreakers, they are sometimes impossible to get past - nerfing or changing Oathbreakers requires a complete revision on how lotro instances and boss fights are and have been designed - you also cannot nerf Oathbreakers and then leave Brawlers Gut Punch where it is.
    I was just comparing revealing mark. Wasn't suggesting a change in that skill. Reducing the incoming damage and give extra damage return to morale for oath breakers only. It's a way to get more damage output and get self healing for a short time with a 3 min cd. No fight in this game requires oath breakers shame or gut punch to get past a phase. If one skill makes it or breaks it then it's a problem with the group or fight itself.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geremir View Post
    Would like to see this change reverted, the buff you received from Song-Brother's Call was nice. As I would like to see Shield of the Dunedain back in yellow as a cooldown, I rather see ''Reform the Lines'' as a Capstone trait for blue instead of SoD.
    Blue captain clearly needs a cool down to use on a focus target. This has always been the role of SotD. It makes perfect sense to have it in blue line.

    You want to make blue Captain more viable, by removing the best cooldown or useful skill it has in Yellow. Instead you add a negating damage skill and potential heal effect back in Yellow with ''At the Fore''. If you really intend on making tanking cappies stronger and being useful in a raid you revert this change and put SoD back in Yellow as a Capstone. All Captains needed in the first place was not a massive change, but in blue it just needs more abilities to crossheal. ''Gift of Spirit'' makes it good as an extra capstone next to ''Reform the Lines''. For the rest most of the Blue Captain was already really good as it was.
    Mostly agree with this - except for what I noted above. Blue captain has received far more changes than were necessary. Replace Song-brother's Call with Reform the Lines, Valour with Gift of Spirit, and the freed up slot from Reform the Lines with Shield of the Dúnedain. Then the spec would be perfectly viable.

    Of course, that is not going to happen. Now that dev time has been invested, drastic changes are inbound, there is no averting it.

    Standard of Honour
    The frequency and potency of healing has been increased. The duration of the banner has been reduced to 15 seconds.

    Back to 30 seconds, just like the other lines. Even so Blue-Banner is still not that great. I rather have it heal it like 2% of health every tick for everyone in it, then a 60k thats not doing much in the first place. This way it is also more beneficial to tanks with more health.
    Really just quoting your post to address this part. Who in their right mind wants a 30s blue line banner? It will almost never happen that you can get use out of the second half of blue line banner, and most of its healing just goes to waste; people run out, and AoE damage doesn't typically come in for 30 consecutive seconds. With these changes, blue banner is actually a strong cooldown to answer AoE damage, so it serves a greater purpose than just padding your HPS. This is a great change, especially with the increased tick rate. Please leave it as it is.

    3. Shield of the Dunedain should go back to Yellow ASAP, I can't keep emphasising it enough. Maybe you feel it is too strong to use it on yourself and making other tanking classes redundant, but at this stage Captain has no purpose in any line, rather then to be a 13th raidmember to use the 10% morale buff every 20 minutes. ''At the Fore'' doesn't need a damage component in a line that does not provide anything to damage anyway rather then surviving. Now it feels you are putting Shield of the Dunedain back in blue to make the blue line of a Captain viable again in raids and such. One should not go at the cost of the other.
    If yellow captains cannot function without SotD, that seems like a glaring issue that should certainly be addressed. But SotD is clearly more at home in the blueline trait tree. Furthermore, it covers one of blue line's biggest weaknesses. So once again, please leave SotD in blue line. No doubt there are other solutions to make yellow line viable.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
    Also known as Giliodor

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevpain View Post
    No fight in this game requires oath breakers shame or gut punch to get past a phase.
    Then you clearly have not raided at T5 or done anyform of high-tier raid progression when a new raid has released.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    I see a lot of asking for SoD back into yellow, which I support, although I don't support allowing Captains to use this skill on themselves again - and in fact, I don't see why there is such hate to the new skill, At the Fore either, a 50% damage negation with up to a 50% morale heal afterwards is not terrible by any means. Having SoD only useable on another target is a great source of defensive utility especially in regards to your other tank and/or healer and/or in general anyone being focused at that time - at 130 when it was made ally only, it really needed to be ally only, between that and having Last Stand up every 1m to 1m 30s (due to a stupid set bonus that should never existed) yCappy was kinda broken when it came to any type of group content. No, we no longer have the set bonus, but in terms of raw 1:1 tankiness, Captains don't exactly struggle heavily vs a single target, they never have, and at the fore will fill that role of a missing self-cooldown, though, I would argue the cooldown is perhaps a bit longer than I would like, 3minutes would be more ideal.

    • This being said, bCaptain does need a tank cooldown of some kind, and reform the lines needs a serious revision on how it functions.
    • I would like to see Captains own personal damage increased further, especially in Yellow, simply because it feels terrible having to rely almost solely on force taunts in order to get aggro - the 9 target Gallant Display (which is hopefully in a 360 around the captain, and not just a 90 or 180 arc, I didn't have the opportunity to test), if it actually hits hard enough will do wonders for Cappy AoE aggro.
    • Shield-Brothers Call being made a weaker version of Shield of the Dunedain does indeed make zero sense, why bother removing the skill in the first place just to give back a weaker variant.
    • The fellowship variant of Yellow To Arms is woefully weak in comparison to its live version and offers very little, the brother variant of Yellow To Arms forces you to use your brother skill on a healer where the current live version can be used by anyone.
    • SiN, whilst the tooltip has increased massively, the fact that in order to get it's full benefit you have to be near other people again, makes this skill woefully weak, as pointed out being no more than 20k a tick when you are alone, either increase the radius, up the tooltip, or reduce the required number of people (in fact all 3 would be ideal).
    • As everyone else has said, Banner back at 30s really is a must, I lamented that I would be okay with 20s if you are completely dead set on lowering the duration, but, realistically no, Banner SHOULD remain at 30s.
    • Inspire healing and power restore (especially after the power changes) should be fellowship wide in all 3 lines, there was no reason to change this when you have removed gallant display healing & halved revealing mark in red & blue.
    I hate to argue from a "content" point of view, but higher tier HH really showed the weakness of the YCPT vs. Brawler and GRD, without personal CD's it was "easier" to put the Captain back into support and let the meta tanks deal with the boss, both second boss and 3rd boss could be tanked longer and easier by Brawler and GRD, simply because of the number of CDs and internal survivability.

    Given the CPT only has 1 real CD, At the Fore seem's like a weaker compromise to give a second option other than LS.

    As you say, we don't have the sets now, so bit of a moot point.

    A less potent version could be a compromise while making it available in blue and yellow.
    Lob
    [EU] Evernight

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevpain View Post
    I was just comparing revealing mark. Wasn't suggesting a change in that skill. Reducing the incoming damage and give extra damage return to morale for oath breakers only. It's a way to get more damage output and get self healing for a short time with a 3 min cd. No fight in this game requires oath breakers shame or gut punch to get past a phase. If one skill makes it or breaks it then it's a problem with the group or fight itself.
    I would love to see HH T5 Boss 2, with no oathbreakers or Gut Punch.

    I don't understand the notion of wanting OBs to heal people whilst it's applied, if it's going to be a percentage back of damage dealt whilst it's up, it's likely to end up being nothing but overheal.

    I mean sure if it's something that only happens whilst stand-alone, but from a group perspective, it's a capstone skill, with a longish cooldown, and has to be applied wisely.
    Lob
    [EU] Evernight

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    If yellow captains cannot function without SotD, that seems like a glaring issue that should certainly be addressed. But SotD is clearly more at home in the blueline trait tree. Furthermore, it covers one of blue line's biggest weaknesses. So once again, please leave SotD in blue line. No doubt there are other solutions to make yellow line viable.
    Cheap bit of spam, but just put a version of SOD in yellow and blue - easy fix for both specs.
    Lob
    [EU] Evernight

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Asy1 View Post
    I hate to argue from a "content" point of view, but higher tier HH really showed the weakness of the YCPT vs. Brawler and GRD, without personal CD's it was "easier" to put the Captain back into support and let the meta tanks deal with the boss, both second boss and 3rd boss could be tanked longer and easier by Brawler and GRD, simply because of the number of CDs and internal survivability.
    If we're looking at Brawler, that whole class needs redesigning from the ground up, the tank spec is just entirely stupid in what it can do & its assortment of skills and cooldowns, but in terms of tanking the bosses, yes, I agree, it was easier on Guard and Brawler, but that also isn't necessarily a terrible thing either, IF what Captain lacks in it's own tankiness is made up in what it can bring to the group and your other tank. Not having the To Arms from the yCaptain is going to be noticed, not having the passive healing for the group or directly for your shield-brother from the yCaptain is going to be noticed (and this is before we even mention the loss of SoD from the yCaptain) and both of these factors will effect Guards & Brawlers.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Asy1 View Post
    Given the CPT only has 1 real CD, At the Fore seem's like a weaker compromise to give a second option other than LS.
    Given that SoD would "set" your incoming damage at -75% having a skill that will negate 50% of the incoming damage that will work ON TOP of your current -% incoming damage is not something to be ignored, and will actually probably work at around the same strength, that SoD did anyway once you factor in Battle Hardened, the new Defensive Strike buff & Tome of Defence, (actually this would take it even higher, negating 50% and then further reducing the incoming damage by 33%), in conjuction with up to a 50% morale heal afterward. I really don't think this skill will be as bad as you make it seem.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Asy1 View Post
    A less potent version could be a compromise while making it available in blue and yellow.
    This could also be a satisfiable option, but I'd still like it to remain ally-only.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    If we're looking at Brawler, that whole class needs redesigning from the ground up, the tank spec is just entirely stupid in what it can do & its assortment of skills and cooldowns, but in terms of tanking the bosses, yes, I agree, it was easier on Guard and Brawler, but that also isn't necessarily a terrible thing either, IF what Captain lacks in it's own tankiness is made up in what it can bring to the group and your other tank. Not having the To Arms from the yCaptain is going to be noticed, not having the passive healing for the group or directly for your shield-brother from the yCaptain is going to be noticed (and this is before we even mention the loss of SoD from the yCaptain) and both of these factors will effect Guards & Brawlers.

    Given that SoD would "set" your incoming damage at -75% having a skill that will negate 50% of the incoming damage that will work ON TOP of your current -% incoming damage is not something to be ignored, and will actually probably work at around the same strength, that SoD did anyway once you factor in Battle Hardened, the new Defensive Strike buff & Tome of Defence, (actually this would take it even higher, negating 50% and then further reducing the incoming damage by 33%), in conjuction with up to a 50% morale heal afterward. I really don't think this skill will be as bad as you make it seem.

    This could also be a satisfiable option, but I'd still like it to remain ally-only.
    I don't disagree that ''At the Fore'' might be as bad as I seem to believe, but the fact I see 100% melee damage on a skill that is supposed to be in yellow line really makes me skeptical, rather put BPE rating or some other defensive thing then on it instead. Melee Damage makes no sense at all. At least there need to be some changes on this skill to make it a bit more viable as it is. In that case SoD could stay in blue imo, even though in the current state I still don't see a blue cappy appear in my raids, even though I would love to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    Blue captain clearly needs a cool down to use on a focus target.

    Really just quoting your post to address this part. Who in their right mind wants a 30s blue line banner? It will almost never happen that you can get use out of the second half of blue line banner, and most of its healing just goes to waste; people run out, and AoE damage doesn't typically come in for 30 consecutive seconds. With these changes, blue banner is actually a strong cooldown to answer AoE damage, so it serves a greater purpose than just padding your HPS. This is a great change, especially with the increased tick rate. Please leave it as it is.
    On live people don't even use the blue banner in healing line at this stage, I don't see that changed if I am fairly honest.
    Regardless of the amount of ticks it will not solve it's purpose in a raidarea that is the size of something which is more then 100 of these banners even if the ticks are tripled or quadrupeld. Take the Hrimil arena for example, one puddle and you can move already.
    Now that they removed most healing over time effects it might seem more viable, but a banner shouldn't function as a form of burst healing for people that stay in it for half the time.
    In case you make it % based it would more serve it's purpose as well for tanks that are clumbed up in a tiny leftover space of a bigger place or arena that runs out of space over time.
    As for the cooldown on the banner that is something to be adressed, but since the 15 seconds of the banner in red and yellow have more flaws then a 30 seconds banner it wouldn't make sense to change the cooldown for a blue banner or a line that is not often played in general on a cappy anyway. Instead I rather see ALL banners reverted regardless of heals or buffs to 30 seconds as I cannot see them do something seporate or different for each line.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Asy1 View Post
    I hate to argue from a "content" point of view, but higher tier HH really showed the weakness of the YCPT vs. Brawler and GRD, without personal CD's it was "easier" to put the Captain back into support and let the meta tanks deal with the boss, both second boss and 3rd boss could be tanked longer and easier by Brawler and GRD, simply because of the number of CDs and internal survivability.

    Given the CPT only has 1 real CD, At the Fore seem's like a weaker compromise to give a second option other than LS.

    As you say, we don't have the sets now, so bit of a moot point.

    A less potent version could be a compromise while making it available in blue and yellow.
    A less potent version is what I had in mind as well if you use it on yourself rather then another target.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Then you clearly have not raided at T5 or done anyform of high-tier raid progression when a new raid has released.
    Thats why I said, its either a problem with the group, or a problem with the fight in general. No fight in this game should be reliant on a single skill from a class to get through content. Good example is HOR 6 man first boss and kiting the dwarves because they hit way too hard even lower tiers. Problem with the fight itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Asy1 View Post
    I would love to see HH T5 Boss 2, with no oathbreakers or Gut Punch.

    I don't understand the notion of wanting OBs to heal people whilst it's applied, if it's going to be a percentage back of damage dealt whilst it's up, it's likely to end up being nothing but overheal.

    I mean sure if it's something that only happens whilst stand-alone, but from a group perspective, it's a capstone skill, with a longish cooldown, and has to be applied wisely.
    Like a replied to another post, if those higher tier require oathbreakers or gut punch to get through a fight before the raid wipes, then its more likely a problem with the fight itself. No fight should require a single skill like oathbreakers to get you past a fight.

    OB applying a heal was just a suggestion of a change of a more balanced skill for solo and raid. I don't have a problem with the skill in its current state, but I feel it could use a change since the other capstones in blue and yellow changed. I am open to suggestions of how to make it a better skill for all around use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geremir View Post
    I don't disagree that ''At the Fore'' might be as bad as I seem to believe, but the fact I see 100% melee damage on a skill that is supposed to be in yellow line really makes me skeptical, rather put BPE rating or some other defensive thing then on it instead. Melee Damage makes no sense at all. At least there need to be some changes on this skill to make it a bit more viable as it is. In that case SoD could stay in blue imo, even though in the current state I still don't see a blue cappy appear in my raids, even though I would love to.
    Front line Resilience/At the Fore is actually not bad at all for a cooldown. Its biggest weakness right now is the duration of the healing buff. You can build up to 10 stacks of At the Fore, which represents 50% total morale, but you can only consume one stack per attack. Hitting multiple targets with like pressing attack or gallant display doesnt count. Itll still be just one stack of at the fore per melee skill consumed. So with the cappy's low melee range, and relatively low APS, it may be difficult to use all 10 stacks before they expire.

    But youre right, the melee damage buff doesnt make sense really. Tank captain damage is so small that it doesnt matter if you double melee damage for 25 seconds. Its not going to matter.

    Overall though, if theyre not going to make Shield of the Dunedain self targetable, moving it to blue line is probably a good move.

    A big problem we're going to see in raids with the Yellow captain changes though will be aggro generation. When I tanked t4 boss 2 and 3 in Hidden Hoard, I was reliant at the beginning of add waves on heals for aggro. As a cappy, I dont have a skill like Warchant to grab fast aggro, so instead I had to stack heals on the group. I would spend the start of add waves trying to put what heals i could on everyone, hit enemies with inspire and gallant, and watch my group's damage with Too Arms and In harms way. Thats just how I had to get aggro and save who I could when I couldnt get all the aggro. But they plan here to strip back that healing, and make it harder to grab aggro. It really feels like they dont understand a tank captains place in a raid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevpain View Post
    Thats why I said, its either a problem with the group, or a problem with the fight in general. No fight in this game should be reliant on a single skill from a class to get through content. Good example is HOR 6 man first boss and kiting the dwarves because they hit way too hard even lower tiers. Problem with the fight itself.
    When you get to T4/5 raiding it becomes very much about staying alive, whilst also dealing the most possible damage, there are very few mechanical changes (sometimes none at all) between t3 and t4/5 and the only changes made are increased mob/boss damage and health, and what helps your group do more damage? Skills like OB. It also isn't necessarily a bad thing either, otherwise why have skills like this in the first place?

    It's how raid/boss fights in lotro have often always been designed, many of them have particular phases in which you are required to nuke the boss or a particular target, either because of things like enrage timers, or simply because they deal too much damage to be left alive for X period of time (in the case of multi-bosses and/or bosses that summon adds) - that isn't an inherent design flaw when you consider the fact typical lotro raids pre-120 always had two captains at least, developers designed fights with that in mind. Even in the current raid boss 2 isn't largely possible by most groups without Oathies.

    But making changes to skills like this, requires a complete revision of how lotro instances are designed.
    Last edited by Hephburz-2; Feb 12 2023 at 04:42 AM.

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    If we're looking at Brawler, that whole class needs redesigning from the ground up, the tank spec is just entirely stupid in what it can do & its assortment of skills and cooldowns, but in terms of tanking the bosses, yes, I agree, it was easier on Guard and Brawler, but that also isn't necessarily a terrible thing either, IF what Captain lacks in it's own tankiness is made up in what it can bring to the group and your other tank. Not having the To Arms from the yCaptain is going to be noticed, not having the passive healing for the group or directly for your shield-brother from the yCaptain is going to be noticed (and this is before we even mention the loss of SoD from the yCaptain) and both of these factors will effect Guards & Brawlers.



    Given that SoD would "set" your incoming damage at -75% having a skill that will negate 50% of the incoming damage that will work ON TOP of your current -% incoming damage is not something to be ignored, and will actually probably work at around the same strength, that SoD did anyway once you factor in Battle Hardened, the new Defensive Strike buff & Tome of Defence, (actually this would take it even higher, negating 50% and then further reducing the incoming damage by 33%), in conjuction with up to a 50% morale heal afterward. I really don't think this skill will be as bad as you make it seem.



    This could also be a satisfiable option, but I'd still like it to remain ally-only.
    A fair argument, but if the skill remains 4 mins, there will still need to be a middle ground I think, given LS is 5mins at present.

    Weathered Blows - 1 min 15secs.
    Joy of Battle - 1min 54secs.
    One for all, Plant feet, Mettle shield....

    Warriors Heart - 2mins
    Jug - 3mins
    Pledge (debatable) - 1min 54sec
    Thrill Danger - 1min

    it's almost a 1:2 ratio for the other tanks in terms of access to CD vs. CPT.

    I know you know this, but it's more for wider consideration. SOD in yellow at 35-40% incoming damage reduction could be viable and on par with Brawler for example.
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  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Asy1 View Post
    Cheap bit of spam, but just put a version of SOD in yellow and blue - easy fix for both specs.
    An even more interesting option would be to put Shield of the Dúnedain in blue line as a non-capstone trait, allowing for all three specialisations to pick it up if they want to invest the points for it. I do not believe that red captains with Shield of the Dúnedain would be wildly out of control, either.

    Anyway, I do not play yellow line so I am relying on the commentary of others here - but it seems that what yellow line really lacks is a personal defensive cd, akin to SotD before it could no longer be used on oneself. Would it not be better, then, to simply rework the new capstone trait to the point where it offers similar utility? Song-brother's Call (i.e. the new yellow line ability) now provides defensive utility akin to SotD, and having a personal cd on top of that seems to suit the needs of a yellow captain much better than having SotD returned to it. Meanwhile, SotD is actually a great tool for a blue captain. So once again, I would submit it is better to adjust the new traits that yellow captains got, than to place SotD back in yellow line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geremir View Post
    On live people don't even use the blue banner in healing line at this stage, I don't see that changed if I am fairly honest.
    On live, blue captains have a completely different toolkit from the current BR iteration. The AoE healing on BR is much weaker. The BR version of Standard of Honour provides an answer to incoming AoE damage, which is needed in light of the changes to Valiant Strike. Now, if the current raid is not well-suited for blue line banner usage, that is very unfortunate, but we should not base the utility of the skill on one specific raid. If we were to go back one level cap to Remmorchant, AD or FoKD, there would be ample opportunity to get massive value out of the BR version of Standard of Honour (some examples mentioned below). Also in PvMP, a shorter but more intensive HoT effect is preferable to a long trickle of virtually useless healing. In fact, this is the same issue I have with Words of Courage, so I would very much like to see Words of Courage receive the same treatment:

    Suggestion:
    Change the blue line trait "Lifting Words" (+4/8/12/16/20% Words of Courage healing).
    New version: At rank 5, Words of Courage healing is increased by 100%, has its cooldown increased by 3 seconds, and has its duration reduced by 15 seconds.

    Regardless of the amount of ticks it will not solve it's purpose in a raidarea that is the size of something which is more then 100 of these banners even if the ticks are tripled or quadrupeld. Take the Hrimil arena for example, one puddle and you can move already.
    As I noted, that is an issue which is specific to this level cap. Furthermore, with this in mind, the live version of Standard of Honour is equally useless. The point, then, is to identify what purpose this ability is meant to fulfill. The answer is, clearly, that it's meant to be a response to incoming AoE damage. The live version of the banner does not really help with this. It provides a measly 30k-40k healing every 3 seconds for 30 seconds. A shorter, more intensive heal is precisely what is needed for this ability to have a chance of being useful. And outside of the current raid's design, which I'm not going to comment on since I have not completed it in any meaningful capacity, I can see many scenarios in which this new version of the banner will be useful, and indeed preferable.

    Now that they removed most healing over time effects it might seem more viable, but a banner shouldn't function as a form of burst healing for people that stay in it for half the time.
    The point is that most encounters in the game will not allow you to remain stationary for 30 seconds. That is why having the same amount of healing packed into 15 seconds is to be preferred. For instance: Acrid Gas on Thossulun, Blood Burst on Rukhor, Foul Reek on Shelob, the AoE attack on second boss in AD, the fiery tornadoes on the last boss in AD, FoKD generally. Those are just lvl 130 cap. The fact that blue banner has no chance of being viable in the final boss of the current raid does not mean that it is inherently a useless skill. And the changes that are currently on BR make it better tailored towards the kinds of scenarios in which it is useful. You want your banner to help you recover your raid group's health. Not to have it just pad your HPS meter. That's what this change achieves, and the new version is just objectively a better version of the live iteration for that reason.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
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  18. #93
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    When it comes to the blue banner, I can see the reasoning behind a much shorter duration than the red and yellow banners, simply due to the potency of the heal and the tick rate, given the right circumstances it would be quite impactful (alas you won't find them in the current raid, but come what may and we shall see). However, a reduction in banner duration should be accompanied by an increase in banner radius, at least for blue (and I just want to make this clear again, I would only support a decrease in banner duration in Blue, and only IF banner radius was increased to compensate), in many situations a single puddle drop can nullify the entirety of your skill which is an awful design, especially with the current BR bCaptain with blue banner being quite a decent portion of your AoE healing capacity.
    Last edited by Hephburz-2; Feb 12 2023 at 12:38 PM.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Asy1 View Post
    A fair argument, but if the skill remains 4 mins, there will still need to be a middle ground I think, given LS is 5mins at present.

    Weathered Blows - 1 min 15secs.
    Joy of Battle - 1min 54secs.
    One for all, Plant feet, Mettle shield....

    Warriors Heart - 2mins
    Jug - 3mins
    Pledge (debatable) - 1min 54sec
    Thrill Danger - 1min

    it's almost a 1:2 ratio for the other tanks in terms of access to CD vs. CPT.

    I know you know this, but it's more for wider consideration. SOD in yellow at 35-40% incoming damage reduction could be viable and on par with Brawler for example.
    I do hate to include these, and just for playing devils advocate, but you must also consider To Arms and IHW on the cooldown list, a -15% incoming damage buff is not something to be ignored either especially on top of your current -% incoming damage modifiers (with ToD), totaling around -48%. IHW, purely as a self -% incoming damage buff as well, when you need to mitigate a self-boss mechanic when no one else is taking damage. Granted IHW is situational at best, but as are pledge and juggernaut for guards, if the damage cant be BPEd.

    As I've said already, Brawlers just need totally revamping from the ground up, their kit is beyond stupid, and I really cannot fathom why Captain is being nerfed in this way before Brawler has been, given it is clearly the more broken class.

    That being said, I do support a reduction in the cooldown on At the Fore, to around 2min 30s - 3min, and if the -% incoming damage reduction on Shield-Brothers call was improved, as was the duraiton, and made self-targettable (-50% incoming damage, 10s duration, 2min cooldown), it could fill the hole left by SotD.

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    When you get to T4/5 raiding it becomes very much about staying alive, whilst also dealing the most possible damage, there are very few mechanical changes (sometimes none at all) between t3 and t4/5 and the only changes made are increased mob/boss damage and health, and what helps your group do more damage? Skills like OB. It also isn't necessarily a bad thing either, otherwise why have skills like this in the first place?

    It's how raid/boss fights in lotro have often always been designed, many of them have particular phases in which you are required to nuke the boss or a particular target, either because of things like enrage timers, or simply because they deal too much damage to be left alive for X period of time (in the case of multi-bosses and/or bosses that summon adds) - that isn't an inherent design flaw when you consider the fact typical lotro raids pre-120 always had two captains at least, developers designed fights with that in mind. Even in the current raid boss 2 isn't largely possible by most groups without Oathies.

    But making changes to skills like this, requires a complete revision of how lotro instances are designed.
    Thats kinda why I'm suggesting it changes. The skill and the design of instances. I remember back in Shadows of Angmar when all are big skills were on long cds. OB/SOTD 15min cd. Captain rezes on 30min cd and Strength of morale (which was good back then) a 1hour cd. Back then and even past that, OB was never a requirement, more like a helper. If your saying you honestly can't get past a boss or a phase these days without OB, it seems like a problem with the instance design. Of all the raids I've done in this game back in the day, only a couple come to mind where OB was almost needed. Turtle raid down in the waterworks of Moria. Trolls bosses in DN, but the captains just in harms way (back when the skill absorbed 100% damage) and last stand. The Mammoths in the OD raid if you were trying to get the challenge done because it was on a timer. I could probably think of more but not every fight and instance required OB. If today, instances require 1 skill like OB to get past content, the devs should look into it. I personally wouldnt mind a change in the skill. Something new and fresh.

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevpain View Post
    Thats kinda why I'm suggesting it changes. The skill and the design of instances. I remember back in Shadows of Angmar when all are big skills were on long cds. OB/SOTD 15min cd. Captain rezes on 30min cd and Strength of morale (which was good back then) a 1hour cd. Back then and even past that, OB was never a requirement, more like a helper. If your saying you honestly can't get past a boss or a phase these days without OB, it seems like a problem with the instance design. Of all the raids I've done in this game back in the day, only a couple come to mind where OB was almost needed. Turtle raid down in the waterworks of Moria. Trolls bosses in DN, but the captains just in harms way (back when the skill absorbed 100% damage) and last stand. The Mammoths in the OD raid if you were trying to get the challenge done because it was on a timer. I could probably think of more but not every fight and instance required OB. If today, instances require 1 skill like OB to get past content, the devs should look into it. I personally wouldnt mind a change in the skill. Something new and fresh.
    You have experience with T3+ content in our days? If you don't have it, why you compare them with Shadows of Angmar? Shadows of Angmar content don't needs to have 2 tanks and 3 healers in raid, raids in 2008-2010 have more damage dealers in raids, with less tanks and healers

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevpain View Post
    Thats kinda why I'm suggesting it changes. The skill and the design of instances. I remember back in Shadows of Angmar when all are big skills were on long cds. OB/SOTD 15min cd. Captain rezes on 30min cd and Strength of morale (which was good back then) a 1hour cd. Back then and even past that, OB was never a requirement, more like a helper. If your saying you honestly can't get past a boss or a phase these days without OB, it seems like a problem with the instance design. Of all the raids I've done in this game back in the day, only a couple come to mind where OB was almost needed. Turtle raid down in the waterworks of Moria. Trolls bosses in DN, but the captains just in harms way (back when the skill absorbed 100% damage) and last stand. The Mammoths in the OD raid if you were trying to get the challenge done because it was on a timer. I could probably think of more but not every fight and instance required OB. If today, instances require 1 skill like OB to get past content, the devs should look into it. I personally wouldnt mind a change in the skill. Something new and fresh.
    This is going to sound blunt, but, if the last time you played this game or did any meaningful high-tier end-game content was back in Shadows of Angmar, and/or you haven't played any time recently over the past couple of years - then with all due respect, but please stop giving advice or commenting about things you know very little about, it's not helpful to the discourse or the current changes facing captain now which are based on the content we have now, NOT the content we had 15 years ago.
    Last edited by Hephburz-2; Feb 12 2023 at 01:03 PM.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elmagor View Post
    You have experience with T3+ content in our days? If you don't have it, why you compare them with Shadows of Angmar? Shadows of Angmar content don't needs to have 2 tanks and 3 healers in raid, raids in 2008-2010 have more damage dealers in raids, with less tanks and healers
    I do have experience in tier 3 content thank you very much. You must of never played rift back in shadows of angmar or helegrod when it was a 24 man raid only. lol

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    This is going to sound blunt, but, if the last time you played this game or did any meaningful high-tier end-game content was back in Shadows of Angmar, and/or you haven't played any time recently over the past couple of years - then with all due respect, but please stop giving advice or commenting about things you know very little about, it's not helpful to the discourse or the current changes facing captain now which are based on the content we have now, NOT the content we had 15 years ago.
    I have every right to give advice, just like you have the right to speak against it. I have played this game from the start and have run every raid. If a single skill is holding back your entire raid fight, lol sorry, but there is a problem.

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevpain View Post
    I do have experience in tier 3 content thank you very much. You must of never played rift back in shadows of angmar or helegrod when it was a 24 man raid only. lol
    Yes, I start playing Lotro with S. Mirkwood. And Helegrod was 24-man only on T1. When I play, people don't bother with T1 and choice 12-man T2. Of course, we talking about 12-man raids. So less damage dealers, more tanks and healers, more skills to do burst damage. Did you know any phase in Shadows of Angmar raids where you need burst boss? Of course if we don't have enrage timer we don't need Oathies... but not all people able to play for 30-40 min without mistakes.

 

 
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