Captain Changes and Feedback

[WeirdJedi]

If a single skill is holding back your entire raid fight, lol sorry, but there is a problem.

I'm sort of an enigma as my perspective on the discussion is limited when it comes to raiding. I didn't play the game when there were 24-man raids. From how Severlin explained in his Q&A, that will probably never happen again. I also don't like the challenge or struggle of higher-tier raids that require you to have the best builds to stand a chance. Though, I still desire to obtain the rewards from them. Not gear, mind you. The decorations, cosmetics, and deed completion.

The one thing I do have is years of experience trying to work with competitive players who expect their team to perfectly perform so that they aren't a liability in holding them back in completing the hardest content available. People are going to be critical over the smallest things. We are seeing it now, again, with the portents. I've personally seen it when people refused me for having something slightly less powerful, perhaps a .1% difference. I've been kicked from a raid group when I told the leader I wasn't using a specific plug-in, despite being sent messages afterwards from four different people who thought I was doing so well that I must have been using it.

What I'm realizing is how developers are adding ways to their games of always supplying a higher difficulty to keep people constantly playing. There was the stream where they talked about how a standard player should be able to achieve the landscape difficulty title at Deadly by themselves but knew there would be individuals who would "prove them wrong" in soloing the content at the higher difficulties. That's why every single ounce of damage counts because they really don't want it completed from the start.

[Kevpain]

Yes, I start playing Lotro with S. Mirkwood. And Helegrod was 24-man only on T1. When I play, people don't bother with T1 and choice 12-man T2. Of course, we talking about 12-man raids. So less damage dealers, more tanks and healers, more skills to do burst damage. Did you know any phase in Shadows of Angmar raids where you need burst boss? Of course if we don't have enrage timer we don't need Oathies... but not all people able to play for 30-40 min without mistakes.

In Shadows of Angmar there were no bosses that required it. Really wasn't until Moria with the Turtle boss that burst damage was required in the beginning because of the damage over time building up but once everyone got there first ages and geared out, then the groups could handle the fight without oathies. The point I am trying to get at is that if there is a fight that absolutely requires that skill or the brawler gut punch to get past even with the group being fully decked out and everything goes right, is a problem. Like I said before, I don't personally have any issue with oathies in its current state, but if this is the meta going forward with raids where it is required, then I feel like it's a problem or going to be a problem in the future. Might as well look into it while captain changes are here and being brought forth. Captain has been my main since SOA and would like to see the class improve as a whole and bring more to groups then just Oathies and the double rez.

[Aeviternus]

I would request that a forum moderator remove all the pointless commentary about individual experiences at previous level caps, and further irrelevant posts (including this one). It's not contributing anything to the discussion, and obscures the actual topics that need to be addressed before this update goes live.

[Hephburz-2]

In Shadows of Angmar there were no bosses that required it. Really wasn't until Moria with the Turtle boss that burst damage was required in the beginning because of the damage over time building up but once everyone got there first ages and geared out, then the groups could handle the fight without oathies. The point I am trying to get at is that if there is a fight that absolutely requires that skill or the brawler gut punch to get past even with the group being fully decked out and everything goes right, is a problem. Like I said before, I don't personally have any issue with oathies in its current state, but if this is the meta going forward with raids where it is required, then I feel like it's a problem or going to be a problem in the future. Might as well look into it while captain changes are here and being brought forth. Captain has been my main since SOA and would like to see the class improve as a whole and bring more to groups then just Oathies and the double rez.

And again, please stop giving commentary about content from 15 years ago. This is no where near the same game or class as it was back then. Almost every single raid since level 75 has required captain oathies in some capacity on a particular boss in that raid. This isn’t a problem with the skill or the raid - the skill exists to be used, enrage timers are genuine mechanics across all forms of MMORPGS as dps/gear checks.

If you are not completing t4/5 raid content, and have not been completing prior raids at t3 and T2C then you really do not understand what is going on here - if your only frame of reference is helegrod and turtle, neither of which were overly difficult raids, nor do they compare in any way to the types of raids we have received since - Remmo, AD, and FOKD at 130 just as examples.

[Hephburz-2]

I would request that a forum moderator remove all the pointless commentary about individual experiences at previous level caps, and further irrelevant posts (including this one). It's not contributing anything to the discussion, and obscures the actual topics that need to be addressed before this update goes live.

Supported.

[Kevpain]

And again, please stop giving commentary about content from 15 years ago. This is no where near the same game or class as it was back then. Almost every single raid since level 75 has required captain oathies in some capacity on a particular boss in that raid. This isn’t a problem with the skill or the raid - the skill exists to be used, enrage timers are genuine mechanics across all forms of MMORPGS as dps/gear checks.

If you are not completing t4/5 raid content, and have not been completing prior raids at t3 and T2C then you really do not understand what is going on here - if your only frame of reference is helegrod and turtle, neither of which were overly difficult raids, nor do they compare in any way to the types of raids we have received since - Remmo, AD, and FOKD at 130 just as examples.

Again, If oathbreakers were to get a nerf, and you can't even doing something like tier 4/5 raids anymore, problem is not the skill but the mechanic itself. I make a suggestion to change oathbreakers to something different and your defending it like it should never change, EVER. I would love the skill get changed, but if your gonna whine and complain that you can't do endgame content without it being as it is now, its a problem and will continue to be a problem.

[Hephburz-2]

Again, If oathbreakers were to get a nerf, and you can't even doing something like tier 4/5 raids anymore, problem is not the skill but the mechanic itself. I make a suggestion to change oathbreakers to something different and your defending it like it should never change, EVER. I would love the skill get changed, but if your gonna whine and complain that you can't do endgame content without it being as it is now, its a problem and will continue to be a problem.

T4 and t5 adds morale to the enemies and increases their damage. Nothing else rarely gets changed. And if the bosses have more health, and so you need to do more damage, what skill helps the raid do this? OB.
Again, you don't know what you are talking about.

[Kevpain]

T4 and t5 adds morale to the enemies and increases their damage. Nothing else rarely gets changed. And if the bosses have more health, and so you need to do more damage, what skill helps the raid do this? OB.
Again, you don't know what you are talking about.

If you want things to remain the same, then so be it. I was just suggesting a change. Apparently OB is a skill that should never get changed then and see some love.

[Hephburz-2]

If you want things to remain the same, then so be it. I was just suggesting a change. Apparently OB is a skill that should never get changed then and see some love.

The skill works perfectly fine, no one here is complaining that OB needs changing in any way except for you and the dev who has reduced the duration to 15s, which is what every one else in this thread is complaining about.

[Kevpain]

The skill works perfectly fine, no one here is complaining that OB needs changing in any way except for you and the dev who has reduced the duration to 15s, which is what every one else in this thread is complaining about.

Just because a skill works perfectly fine, doesn't mean it couldn't use a change or rework. I am not complaining about OB, was only suggesting a change. Thats kind of why we are here, to make are voices heard and suggest stuff. Not to put other players down and say we don't have a right to say anything because we don't do high tier end game anymore. I am open to suggestions. I liked the idea of OB changing when in the solo stance.

[Hephburz-2]

Just because a skill works perfectly fine, doesn't mean it couldn't use a change or rework.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. SSG doesn't have a strong track record when it comes to making unwarranted changes to skills for no good reasons.

I am not complaining about OB, was only suggesting a change. Thats kind of why we are here, to make are voices heard and suggest stuff. Not to put other players down and say we don't have a right to say anything because we don't do high tier end game anymore. I am open to suggestions.

But when what you are suggesting directly impacts high-tier raid/instance content, without thinking it through, and with no personal frame of reference because you haven't done it, it's the same as asking a plumber to fix your car, it's not helpful. Many of us, not just me, have explained to you why changing OB is a problem, and why unless instance design is changed first, changing this skill (and similar skills first), is going to effect the current end game high tier content. If, going forward, LOTRO instances are designed in a way that OB etc. has less of a need or a place, then sure, perhaps the skill could be changed then, but as it stands, we are not in that situation.

[WeirdJedi]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. SSG doesn't have a strong track record when it comes to making unwarranted changes to skills for no good reasons.

I don't know why but I became very angry when our Telling Mark went from 10% to 5% in Update 30. We were already doing terrible damage on our own and in the patch notes - https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Upd...y_June_8,_2021 - they included the line: "As a 100% uptime debuff with no action time cost, Telling Mark's group effect was too powerful." I kind of stood there and thought "...and what about us that don't group?" I think my overreaction that week was just building because Revealing Mark was changed - https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Upd...August_6,_2019 and how Noble Mark suddenly changed with the raid - https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Upd..._March_3,_2020. I didn't like the changes to Oathbreaker's Shame, how it can only be cast during combat and how it could only be used once on a target every 3 minutes, but I quickly got over those adjustments.

With the nerf to Revealing Mark, I might prioritize Noble Mark. So count me surprised to see a damage boost and range adjustment. Though, the modifiers for attacking a target with a specific mark might make me think twice. I'll have to test it more fully once they come out with the next Bullroarer.

[Kevpain]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. SSG doesn't have a strong track record when it comes to making unwarranted changes to skills for no good reasons.



But when what you are suggesting directly impacts high-tier raid/instance content, without thinking it through, and with no personal frame of reference because you haven't done it, it's the same as asking a plumber to fix your car, it's not helpful. Many of us, not just me, have explained to you why changing OB is a problem, and why unless instance design is changed first, changing this skill (and similar skills first), is going to effect the current end game high tier content. If, going forward, LOTRO instances are designed in a way that OB etc. has less of a need or a place, then sure, perhaps the skill could be changed then, but as it stands, we are not in that situation.

I have always used OB as a helper skill and never a skill that should be needed. Usually once the group or raid was geared well enough and understood a fight, OB became less of a need and more of a helper. If what your saying is you can't do high tier raids without it, even being fully geared and maxed out dps, then yes, OB shouldn't be changed unless the instances themselves are designed better so even well rounded groups can get through that content without needing OB or Gut every single time. I still like the idea of OB changing when solo stance for a solo captain. Something like your own personal damage boost or a high end damage execute skill, or maybe summon a group of oathbreaker pets like the old LM pet skill that would summon all the LM pets? Just thinking of a suggested changes since the other capstones changed. I don't think OB being reduced in duration is a interesting change.

[Hephburz-2]

I didn't like the changes to Oathbreaker's Shame, how it can only be cast during combat and how it could only be used once on a target every 3 minutes, but I quickly got over those adjustments.

The thing is though, these two changes made objective sense. It was changed to be cast-only in combat because you'd have yellow captains swapping to red pre-fight and popping banner + routing cry buff + OB and then swapping back to yellow, it made bosses particurarly trivial when it came to 3/6man content. The not being used on the same target every 3minutes was because of the old captain set bonus that allowed Shadows Lament to reset OB - prior to 120 traditional raid groups would have 2 red captains, allowing for up to 4 oathies on a single target within the span of 1-2minutes, this was a problem.

However, times have changed, and whilst not being allowed to cast oathies outside of combat still makes sense, the 3min debuff on the target does not (when you consider the fact that these set bonuses are no longer viable to wear in the current content), especially when compared to brawlers gut punch with only a 70s target cooldown, and 15s skill cooldown, which allows it to be used in succession against multiple targets, which already makes it a more attractive choice than OB in many situations at a 7:30 ratio (OB:Gut Punch) on a single target. And now OnMM wants to nerf the skill? For what reason exactly? It doesn't make sense.

With the nerf to Revealing Mark, I might prioritize Noble Mark. So count me surprised to see a damage boost and range adjustment. Though, the modifiers for attacking a target with a specific mark might make me think twice. I'll have to test it more fully once they come out with the next Bullroarer.

Noble mark still doesn't offer anything except personal self-healing, the damage is still negligible, and 2% heals on your fellowship is still 2% more than zero.

[WeirdJedi]

Noble mark still doesn't offer anything except personal self-healing, the damage is still negligible, and 2% heals on your fellowship is still 2% more than zero.

I was strictly stating from a solo perspective.

[Hephburz-2]

I was strictly stating from a solo perspective.

Then I mean, yeah, I guess it's better than revealing.

[Arabani]

Kevpain has his point, fights should not be based on one ability of a specific spec of a specific class. Just give the similar ability to 2-3 more classes and it will be fine.

[1Asy1]

Kevpain has his point, fights should not be based on one ability of a specific spec of a specific class. Just give the similar ability to 2-3 more classes and it will be fine.

He's not wrong and neither is Hephburz.

But we need to be realistic about what we can change right now, it'll be nothing more than config, literally sliding a scale up and down. The stat bloat since the days Kevpain raided is massive, and the amount of damage and constant DPS checks are significant across all recent raids and a valid mechanic. Sure, we'd all love something that meant more movement, or teams doing XYZ, but the reality is this is Lotro.

The main thing is, the Captain needs to have enough in its toolkit to ensure it has a seat at the table, Build 1, isn't it.

Let's hope we get the middle ground in the next 2-3 builds.

Otherwise won't matter what any of us think, we'll be rolling Brawlers.

[Arabani]

The main thing is, the Captain needs to have enough in its toolkit to ensure it has a seat at the table, Build 1, isn't it.

Let's hope we get the middle ground in the next 2-3 builds.

Otherwise won't matter what any of us think, we'll be rolling Brawlers.

Yes, two of three specs in the current BR state have flaws in the core approaches and are useless, and the third one lost a lot of support, rCpatain still be used of course, because there is no alternative. For now.

[Hephburz-2]

Yes, two of three specs in the current BR state have flaws in the core approaches and are useless, and the third one lost a lot of support, rCpatain still be used of course, because there is no alternative. For now.

rCapt already struggles to find its place on live, many t4/5 HH groups don't even use one on the last boss, and these changes are simply a reduction in the level of support rCapt can bring, making it even less of a desirable choice, you'd sooner be better off taking an extra blue brawler, and just letting them DPS, that's how badly designed that class/spec is.

[Khluzainn]

Captain has literally 20+ issues right now and you guys are talking about somthing that is so far down the list its insane that its even being brought up. Oathies is a group damge increase. THE END. Hep is right just leave it alone. If we can even get the top 5 captain issues fixed with this rework we will be lucky. "How can we make oathies more interesting" is not helping the class.

[theultimatekyle]

Since the heals getting cut out in yellow line will gimp not only captain group utility, but also their ability to get aggro, maybe we can get an inherent aggro modifier to build threat on one of the healing skills we're keeping?

On guard, war chant and shield taunt both have such aggro modifiers, so they build more aggro/threat than the actual damage they do, plus the multiplier tanks get for being a tank.

The notes also suggest that gallant display in yellow line will have a similar modifier baked in, but gallant display is no war chant. Just doesnt have the range. So what if we got an aggro modifier for something like rallying cry while in yellow line? That would fix some of the issues these changes will be making. That way when an add wave comes out, captain can pop rallying cry for their fellow, and the heal will help give the captain some better initial aggro, sending the mobs into range for taunts or gallant dislpay.

[Elmagor]

rCapt already struggles to find its place on live, many t4/5 HH groups don't even use one on the last boss, and these changes are simply a reduction in the level of support rCapt can bring, making it even less of a desirable choice, you'd sooner be better off taking an extra blue brawler, and just letting them DPS, that's how badly designed that class/spec is.

I have only one issue with Oathies - why dwarf captain cast blue humanoid spirits on target, when he must cast blue dwarf spirits? Both races have their own oath bracker clans

[Kevpain]

Since the heals getting cut out in yellow line will gimp not only captain group utility, but also their ability to get aggro, maybe we can get an inherent aggro modifier to build threat on one of the healing skills we're keeping?

On guard, war chant and shield taunt both have such aggro modifiers, so they build more aggro/threat than the actual damage they do, plus the multiplier tanks get for being a tank.

The notes also suggest that gallant display in yellow line will have a similar modifier baked in, but gallant display is no war chant. Just doesnt have the range. So what if we got an aggro modifier for something like rallying cry while in yellow line? That would fix some of the issues these changes will be making. That way when an add wave comes out, captain can pop rallying cry for their fellow, and the heal will help give the captain some better initial aggro, sending the mobs into range for taunts or gallant dislpay.

I too have been thinking about aggro modifiers since I have always had to hard time holding hate in the beginning of encounters. A long time ago, noble mark used to be a threat modifier, I was thinking make noble mark a threat modifier again but rank it up to max being AOE of 5 targets? Could keep the heal but make it so all targets gives the 2 or 3 percent heal every like 5 seconds. I like the idea of rallying cry being like a aggro leach too.

[Hephburz-2]

I too have been thinking about aggro modifiers since I have always had to hard time holding hate in the beginning of encounters. A long time ago, noble mark used to be a threat modifier, I was thinking make noble mark a threat modifier again but rank it up to max being AOE of 5 targets? Could keep the heal but make it so all targets gives the 2 or 3 percent heal every like 5 seconds. I like the idea of rallying cry being like a aggro leach too.

The problem with this is it's no more intuitive than using a force taunt, instead you are just putting noble mark on multiple targets, it doesn't enhance or change your gameplay. On the subject of threat, because of the threat rework years ago Captains really did get the short end of the stick in the sense that healing aggro is non-existant, and I think at least for yCappy that should be revised, especially for rallying cry and WoC, but they shouldn't be "threat leeches" more so just have very high threat modifiers similar to guard shield-smash etc.

Would much rather see noble mark augment your skills when used on the target with the mark, for example;

Using Routing Cry on the target gives you and/or your group +5% tact mit for 5s
Using Defensive Strike on the target gives you and/or your group +5% phys mit for 5s
Using Blade of Elendil on the target gives you and/or your group +5% tactical and physical mits for 5s (this could actually work very well, if blade of elendils yellow line effect was to reduce the targets mits by 5% for 5-10s, almost as if you're stealing the targets mits to give them to your fellowship)
Using Devastating Blow on the target gives you and/or your group +5% damage for 5s
Using Inspire on the target gives you and/or your group a small HoT effect for 5s (1s ticks)

Just as an example, but this also encourage using noble mark over revealing mark, and actually changes your playstyle in some way.

I also did see OnMM mention something about Battle-Readied having a +% threat modifier baked into it, but either this is not appearing on the tooltip, or I didn't notice it in BR1 (or just not implemented).