Question about a Forochel quest

[istvana]

I will agree that "trashed" may have been too harsh. But that instance was one of the highlights of the minor Forochel storylines and the replacement version just feels a bit contrived and leaves the whole romance hanging until we get back to the landscape quests and find out that yes there will be a wedding so dozens of cats need to die.

[DavidmeetHal]

I will agree that "trashed" may have been too harsh. But that instance was one of the highlights of the minor Forochel storylines and the replacement version just feels a bit contrived and leaves the whole romance hanging until we get back to the landscape quests and find out that yes there will be a wedding so dozens of cats need to die.

Agreed here. The storyline feels broken, and well, I hate how it all turned out.

[Arabani]

Let's be honest, most of the people did not even notice the change and argue for the sake of argue, "the grass was greener before" and so on. There is no change to the plot or the outcome of the instance, it is still the same story. Just instead of fighting another brother of the girl, you help him with the mamoth. There is no need for the doom and gloom or conspiracy theories. Sometimes things change, it is life. And in this very case I absolutely agree witht the statement "developers know better".

[DoRonRon]

If changes come with a patch note and maybe an indicator of trainee involvement? Might be too much in isolation to the area and quest line for some.

How does one find that patch note when google can't, wiki can't and lotro.com doesn't.

The Wiki has:

"You are ported to Pinja's camp south-west of Pynti-peldot. [9.0N, 73.4W]
Brothers Etu and Ikka approach: fight them one after the other, until they run off.
Brother Manu approaches, talk tom him and then fight him off too.
Watch and learn from the outcome (lesson: do not overcomplicate things with the opposite gender).
Talk with Pinja to finish the instance. You are not ported back but the final quest continues where you are, started by Pinja."

As a solo instance and having someone walking them through, I'd expect some conflict as both will think each are talking nonsense.

Leaving peeps incredulous and getting a A grade - fit right on in here. And a + for bashing 'em out. Perhaps they should have been give the Rust line quest in the Dalelands that has the drama breaks in combat and stalls if you do too much damage and requires a reset and 5 minute wait. Or maybe I missed that patch note too?

The Bugs Forum could include such quest changes too. If there was such a thing.

Like the OP some of us are of an age to fear failure of our memories! Speedy access to quell those feelings would be appreciated.

[Bakenellan]

Let's be honest, most of the people did not even notice the change and argue for the sake of argue, "the grass was greener before" and so on. There is no change to the plot or the outcome of the instance, it is still the same story. Just instead of fighting another brother of the girl, you help him with the mamoth. There is no need for the doom and gloom or conspiracy theories. Sometimes things change, it is life. And in this very case I absolutely agree witht the statement "developers know better".

Some people do notice such things though and are puzzled by them. We got the answer from MoL this time about the reason so it was not wrong to ask. As for what version is better it is subjective. Many (most?) wouldn't care and wouldn't notice like you said.
And we saw firsthand that silence breeds rumours.

[TesalionLortus]

Just instead of fighting another brother of the girl, you help him with the mamoth. There is no need for the doom and gloom or conspiracy theories. Sometimes things change, it is life. And in this very case I absolutely agree witht the statement "developers know better".

"Developers know better" when the developer himself pretty much admitted it was just a technical test for a newbie rather than anything to do with "a developer improving things narratively because they know better" Sure, change is ok, when it's done right and warranted and respectful, in general I agree, but it clearly wasn't the case here. Even though in this particular case it may be such a small thing, sure. But if you actually pay attention, then what you said still isn't true. Not only *is* there a narrative change - driving him off as they comment on their defeat (no fighting alongside them) VS outright help him out and they just stand there, no reaction, is quite different - but you're also able to tell that something is off and doesn't completely stick, with that sort of mute ending.

[DroboTheDwarf]

While I respect what the designer did, as a long time player I liked the other story for this instance better. Just my two cents.

[Pharone]

Trashed! Wow. Seems extreme!

If I didn't have too much to do already, I could certainly go in there and add plenty of follow-up to the events that happen so you can get all the denouement you want or expect, but I don't think it's worth it. Who knew a Surprise Mammoth would be less welcome than just fighting the same nobodies from a decade ago? Live and learn, I suppose.

MoL

I have played through the mammoth event, and it seemed fine to me because I never played that quest line before the mammoth. Now I am wondering what I missed lol.

The only thing I really think needs help in Forochel is the stable master situation. That zone is beautiful to experience (especially at night with a clear sky.. that's awe inspiring!). If only the stable masters all had swift travel options to each other, so more people would not get to that content and go NOPE the first time they have to ride for over 10 minutes to get from one side to the other. I kow.. I timed it lol... >.<

Could we please get swift travel to all stable masters in Forochel?

[Feoh]

Trashed! Wow. Seems extreme!

MoL

It is.

[TesalionLortus]

I
The only thing I really think needs help in Forochel is the stable master situation. That zone is beautiful to experience (especially at night with a clear sky.. that's awe inspiring!). If only the stable masters all had swift travel options to each other, so more people would not get to that content and go NOPE the first time they have to ride for over 10 minutes to get from one side to the other. I kow.. I timed it lol... >.<

Could we please get swift travel to all stable masters in Forochel?

Imagine saying no to an amazing zone because you can't stand riding for a time in the beautifully crafted huge zone (which itself is probably smaller than something like a starter zone in the Witcher 3 anyway). Meanwhile, I go for a stroll sometime without any quests, lol.

That being said, I guess it may be inconvenient if you're levelling up your 15th character and want it quickly - they're certainly aware of these things and will do it when they get to it, but that's really far from urgent, and not something that would discourage fresh blood from exploring.

[West-northwestook]

Since I just went through the whole of Forochel with my aspiring hunter I will add that I too found the changed instance very disconnected. Kai's quest to woo Pinja was a sweet and funny storyline and the "suddenly a mammoth" addition stood out like, well, a mammoth in the room. I think if had been any comments in the quests before that the brothers were renowned for mammoth taming or something the flow would be better. But as it is Pinja's decision has lost all its impact from before.

[Daguest]

I have played through the mammoth event, and it seemed fine to me because I never played that quest line before the mammoth. Now I am wondering what I missed lol.

The only thing I really think needs help in Forochel is the stable master situation. That zone is beautiful to experience (especially at night with a clear sky.. that's awe inspiring!). If only the stable masters all had swift travel options to each other, so more people would not get to that content and go NOPE the first time they have to ride for over 10 minutes to get from one side to the other. I kow.. I timed it lol... >.<

Could we please get swift travel to all stable masters in Forochel?

Despite being one of players favorite when asked in forums/chat (Forochel is the one the most mentioned usually), it is ironically, the one of the few of pre moria zone that wasn't revamped IIRC. Bree, Moria, Angmar, Evendim, trollshaw, misty mountain, lone land they all got a revamp. The shire got some changes, mostly for fast travel. Leaving only forochel, Ered luin, eregion and north down. And I'm not sure if the others didn't get some changes.

Better fast travel would be greatly appreciated, especially removing the rep for them. Also, it never made sense the Forochel cold related armor need a rep grind to wear, meaning you probably won't use it in Forochel. But hey, you'll get warm for Moria !

[Flaxie]

Trashed! Wow. Seems extreme!

If I didn't have too much to do already, I could certainly go in there and add plenty of follow-up to the events that happen so you can get all the denouement you want or expect, but I don't think it's worth it. Who knew a Surprise Mammoth would be less welcome than just fighting the same nobodies from a decade ago? Live and learn, I suppose.

MoL

Not extreme at all. The original made sense, the remake does not. So glad the baby dev passed, now to graduate, he/she/they should have to go back and make it the way it was. Without breaking it. (or anything else)

[Daguest]

I haven't done the quest since the change, apparently it's quite new because I went through forochel a few months ago and it was the original. But it doesn't seem so drastic as to trigger so much hate toward the change.
The core of the story doesn't seems changed. The important part is all the qui pro quo and the clueless guy asking a girl for marriage. And how she accept. Whether we beat the guy or a mammoth do it is quite irrelevant.

[Flaxie]

I haven't done the quest since the change, apparently it's quite new because I went through forochel a few months ago and it was the original. But it doesn't seem so drastic as to trigger so much hate toward the change.
The core of the story doesn't seems changed. The important part is all the qui pro quo and the clueless guy asking a girl for marriage. And how she accept. Whether we beat the guy or a mammoth do it is quite irrelevant.

What is relevant is the attitude of the brothers and the interplay between them and the girl. The boy we are helping is painfully shy and helplessly in love, so he wants to revive a tradition from his people's past, bride stealing. He thinks by doing this he will win her heart, not understanding that he already has it. Her brothers think he is too timid, and not good enough for their sister. For them to stand by and not fight, without being actually defeated in combat, MAKES NO SENSE. The stray mammoth is irrelevant. Once they are defeated in combat and stand down, she gets a chance to say her piece and set the boy straight as to what she thinks of outdated traditions. (Leaving us in no doubt as to how happily hen-pecked he will be for the rest of his life.)

[SalixArbuscula]

If I didn't have too much to do already, I could certainly go in there and add plenty of follow-up to the events that happen so you can get all the denouement you want or expect, but I don't think it's worth it. Who knew a Surprise Mammoth would be less welcome than just fighting the same nobodies from a decade ago? Live and learn, I suppose.

MoL

Yeah, just did this instance again for the Scavenger Hunt. I smiled as I went in there, and mourned as I loaded out. What happened to the humorous, female-empowering story we had before? Now it just doesn't make any sense to newbies, and is horrendously disappointing to anyone who enjoyed the story before.

Why are you taking down the mammoth on your own when 4 perfectly able Lossoth are just standing around? The brothers especially! "Hey you, unworthy chief's son and soft-bellied southron, we trust you to deal with this thing we're running from! Hop to it!"
And what happened to my girl-power? This Pinja is all goo-goo-eyed over Kaj's brave, protective behavior (with no mention of previous affections) and agrees to marry him. The whole ritual thing is never properly explained, but she's unconcerned. "Oh, he was going to use a ritual to win my heart?" Well there's no need, because now he's proven he's big, and brave, and strong (in that he recruited an adventurer to do ALL of his fighting for him?), and I'm just totally ready to pledge my life away to him! *sigh*... Get a grip, girl. He's a goofball, and I remember a version of you that called him out on it but loved him regardless. I wanted to go out for Girl's Night with that Pinja. This one, I want to shake some sense into.

I could almost appreciate if they were trying to write out the steal-a-bride notion, because that's distasteful these days, despite historical factuality, but then, I really appreciate the fact that this game doesn't pull punches. Yes, if the orcs defeat you, they are going to eat you if they happen to be hungry. Yes, the enemy is constantly working up ways to kill, ravage, poison, burn, and blast, and yes, many good men and women die trying to stop them. That's the reality of the story of this Middle-Earth and so far it's been stuck to. I appreciate that fidelity.

I find the notion of a woman previously depicted as fierce and independent (though a little comically hen-pecky, which is less cool, but still) now being painted as swooning over a single act of unsupported bravado (does he even become active and fight? I didn't see.) to be highly unsatisfying. Participating in this story is now way less cool. Please, know that the instance functioned perfectly, and way to go for the design of the set pieces, but PLEASE change it back!

[DavidmeetHal]

Yeah, just did this instance again for the Scavenger Hunt. I smiled as I went in there, and mourned as I loaded out. What happened to the humorous, female-empowering story we had before? Now it just doesn't make any sense to newbies, and is horrendously disappointing to anyone who enjoyed the story before.

Why are you taking down the mammoth on your own when 4 perfectly able Lossoth are just standing around? The brothers especially! "Hey you, unworthy chief's son and soft-bellied southron, we trust you to deal with this thing we're running from! Hop to it!"
And what happened to my girl-power? This Pinja is all goo-goo-eyed over Kaj's brave, protective behavior (with no mention of previous affections) and agrees to marry him. The whole ritual thing is never properly explained, but she's unconcerned. "Oh, he was going to use a ritual to win my heart?" Well there's no need, because now he's proven he's big, and brave, and strong (in that he recruited an adventurer to do ALL of his fighting for him?), and I'm just totally ready to pledge my life away to him! *sigh*... Get a grip, girl. He's a goofball, and I remember a version of you that called him out on it but loved him regardless. I wanted to go out for Girl's Night with that Pinja. This one, I want to shake some sense into.

I could almost appreciate if they were trying to write out the steal-a-bride notion, because that's distasteful these days, despite historical factuality, but then, I really appreciate the fact that this game doesn't pull punches. Yes, if the orcs defeat you, they are going to eat you if they happen to be hungry. Yes, the enemy is constantly working up ways to kill, ravage, poison, burn, and blast, and yes, many good men and women die trying to stop them. That's the reality of the story of this Middle-Earth and so far it's been stuck to. I appreciate that fidelity.

I find the notion of a woman previously depicted as fierce and independent (though a little comically hen-pecky, which is less cool, but still) now being painted as swooning over a single act of unsupported bravado (does he even become active and fight? I didn't see.) to be highly unsatisfying. Participating in this story is now way less cool. Please, know that the instance functioned perfectly, and way to go for the design of the set pieces, but PLEASE change it back!

Agreed. I just don't have any motivation to ever do that quest again. And I used to look forward to it also.

[TesalionLortus]

Yeah, just did this instance again for the Scavenger Hunt. I smiled as I went in there, and mourned as I loaded out. What happened to the humorous, female-empowering story we had before? Now it just doesn't make any sense to newbies, and is horrendously disappointing to anyone who enjoyed the story before.

Why are you taking down the mammoth on your own when 4 perfectly able Lossoth are just standing around? The brothers especially! "Hey you, unworthy chief's son and soft-bellied southron, we trust you to deal with this thing we're running from! Hop to it!"
And what happened to my girl-power? This Pinja is all goo-goo-eyed over Kaj's brave, protective behavior (with no mention of previous affections) and agrees to marry him. The whole ritual thing is never properly explained, but she's unconcerned. "Oh, he was going to use a ritual to win my heart?" Well there's no need, because now he's proven he's big, and brave, and strong (in that he recruited an adventurer to do ALL of his fighting for him?), and I'm just totally ready to pledge my life away to him! *sigh*... Get a grip, girl. He's a goofball, and I remember a version of you that called him out on it but loved him regardless. I wanted to go out for Girl's Night with that Pinja. This one, I want to shake some sense into.

I could almost appreciate if they were trying to write out the steal-a-bride notion, because that's distasteful these days, despite historical factuality, but then, I really appreciate the fact that this game doesn't pull punches. Yes, if the orcs defeat you, they are going to eat you if they happen to be hungry. Yes, the enemy is constantly working up ways to kill, ravage, poison, burn, and blast, and yes, many good men and women die trying to stop them. That's the reality of the story of this Middle-Earth and so far it's been stuck to. I appreciate that fidelity.

I find the notion of a woman previously depicted as fierce and independent (though a little comically hen-pecky, which is less cool, but still) now being painted as swooning over a single act of unsupported bravado (does he even become active and fight? I didn't see.) to be highly unsatisfying. Participating in this story is now way less cool.

Also, even though there are no dialogues now that would better reflect it, I guess the main premise now is the happy one "and they lived happily ever after, with the brothers accepting them and seeing the error of their ways in the face of greater danger" or some other cliché alike. This ties into what you said: sometimes bad things happen, not always everything works out perfectly, and yeah, the game usually doesn't try to pretend otherwise. Beating up the brothers in the old one was kinda like that, there was a conflict there that probably wouldn't ever be resolved peacefully, and a familial divide that needed to happen (and yeah, also reflective of such things from history, but not just that, things like that happen even in IRL in modern times)

Please, know that the instance functioned perfectly, and way to go for the design of the set pieces, but PLEASE change it back!

In theory, they have some copies of data to revert such things, so perhaps it shouldn't be too difficult to change it back once a "test" for a new dev is over. Like, we don't need MoL to spend extra time on creating some extra follow-ups, when literally the previous version made better sense and it already exists.

[SalixArbuscula]

Just had to do this quest again for a second character working through the Scavenger Hunt. Can now confirm that Kaj literally does NOTHING besides "I'll protect you, Pinja!" *masculine posturing* "Er, say, adventurer, you wanna go get that mammoth? I believe in you!" At which point he is nothing more than a cheerleader. I am actually the only one doing anything here.

Another bit I didn't catch the first time through - one of Pinja's brothers actually tries to offer ME Pinja's hand in marriage for a hot second. I'm just sitting there looking up at him, like, I am a female Hobbit. I understand you're a modern NPC trying to be enlightened and all that, but you are simultaneously offering a person in marriage that is not yourself, but a woman whose romantic future you claim dominion over on account of your patriarchal culture, which is totally understandable given the time and place we're set. So, like, are you *sure* that's a live option here? Because it happens that isn't for me. And then his next sentence is like, "Oh, well, I guess she's already in love with Kaj on account of his singular heroic feat of machismo, which it totally enough to impress us, too. Hope you're not too disappointed." ... You, my friend, are and enigma wrapped in a contradiction inside a nonsensicality. You take your mammoth, I'll take my leave (and never looking back).

I'm so very glad I'll only have to live through this once more this year. Exposure therapy is not working.