More Guardian Thoughts

[SSG_Orion]

Let's talk about Adaptibility and Disorientation - as they seem to be universally despised.

With Adaptability you can get a whopping 3% bonus to trigger your responses. I do agree that is underwhelming and it doesn't really speak to the adaptablity of the guardian. However, the survivability of The Defender of the Free is pretty insane. So adjust mitigation feels a bit like overkill.

Let me pose s few potential solutions:

1) When struck by a skill (skill, not effect) that critically damages the guardian, they become immune to critical/devastating criticals for 10s
2) When struck by a skill the guardian applies a mitigation buff against the skill source (tactical or physical) that stacks up to 3 times and lasts for 10s
3) When the target blocks. parries, or evades, increase your finesse up to 3 stacks for 10s.

For Disorientation, I do agree that the reduction in the BPE, is rather useless in end-game content. Thinking about it now, combined with the feedback on redirect - it might be possible to swap Redirect from The Fighter of Shadow along with Vicious Rebuttal - this does, however, really overload the blue line specialization. Though, thematically, it might make more sense.

So, let's think and talk this through.

Redirect moves to The Defender of the Free in the same slot, requiring 15+ to access. Vicious Rebuttal moves to The Defender of the Free in the same slot at 25+. There's no change to the skill gained or the effect on the skill via the trait. Because we are moving Disorientation off of The Defender of the Free, complete speciality into the tree moves up to 54 trait points for a full spec.

If we move Disorientation to The Fighter of Shadow, then we can alter the trait to make it more support based. So let's put out some ideas:

1) Each tier of Disorientation applies a 5% chance for AoE skills to apply a 2s Daze to marked targets (5 tiers)
2) Each tier of Disorientation applies a 5% chance to reduce target finesse by 4% per tier (5 tiers)
3) Each tier of Disorientation applies a 5% chance for Response skills to apply a 2% miss chance/tier effect lasts for 10s and cannot occur more that once every 20s. (5 tiers)

[SSG_Orion]

Thrill of Battle

I think that I was unclear in what thrill of battle would do. Also, I was using my scribble notes to get this post up, so the wording is cumbersome. And, I also miskeyed from my notes.

Each tier of Thrill of battle would increase the crit chance of the initial skill play, not the carrier bleeds, by 5% per tier. Each application increases the % chance and resets the timer of the buff to 20s. When a critical occurs, the buff is dispelled and needs to be built up again.

Heavy-weapons Damage

All skill damage increases by 1% per tier.
All 2-handed weapons damage is inreased by 2% per tier.

(The extraneous mention of the Thrill of Battle change was a copy-pasta error.)

Bastion of Light

Implementation here will be whichever is least costly for the server. I would prefer the toggle skill to not insert another skill play into rotation, but it could easily be a hotspot that functions the same way. It could even have a smal amount of light damage as well as marking the targets. Cooldown would be such to allow for a near 100% up time.

Mark of Permance and Manifested Ire

Agree on the points that Manifested Ire is borderline trash and that Mark of Permance, given the change to Bastion of Light can potentially go the way of the Dodo.

Let me think some more about Manifested Ire. It's meant to punish you for not attacking te Guardian - I think te issue is that when a Guardian tank is doing their job right, this would never trigger. If you had this as a Keen Blade guardian it would likely always trigger and not really affect much, honestly.

Protection

I disagree that this would remain useless if affects the entire fellowship. Though, I wonder if swapping this to The Defender of the Free would make more sense, replacing the BPE with a small damage reduction, and a small chance for fellowship members to resist interrupt effects.

[zipfile]

Let's talk about Adaptibility and Disorientation - as they seem to be universally despised.

With Adaptability you can get a whopping 3% bonus to trigger your responses. I do agree that is underwhelming and it doesn't really speak to the adaptablity of the guardian. However, the survivability of The Defender of the Free is pretty insane. So adjust mitigation feels a bit like overkill.

Let me pose s few potential solutions:

1) When struck by a skill (skill, not effect) that critically damages the guardian, they become immune to critical/devastating criticals for 10s
2) When struck by a skill the guardian applies a mitigation buff against the skill source (tactical or physical) that stacks up to 3 times and lasts for 10s
3) When the target blocks. parries, or evades, increase your finesse up to 3 stacks for 10s.

1) Guardian already has good critical defence, so I don't think this is that good.
2) This could be okay, as long as the number isn't big....0.5% (at 3rd tier) could be okay. (So, 0.1, 0.3, 0.5%)
3) Not a fan of this, Guardian's struggle with Finesse cause War-chant requires it and you need that Finesse before anything...so getting extra Finesse mid-fight isn't that useful.

For Disorientation, I do agree that the reduction in the BPE, is rather useless in end-game content. Thinking about it now, combined with the feedback on redirect - it might be possible to swap Redirect from The Fighter of Shadow along with Vicious Rebuttal - this does, however, really overload the blue line specialization. Though, thematically, it might make more sense.

So, let's think and talk this through.

Redirect moves to The Defender of the Free in the same slot, requiring 15+ to access. Vicious Rebuttal moves to The Defender of the Free in the same slot at 25+. There's no change to the skill gained or the effect on the skill via the trait. Because we are moving Disorientation off of The Defender of the Free, complete speciality into the tree moves up to 54 trait points for a full spec.

If we move Disorientation to The Fighter of Shadow, then we can alter the trait to make it more support based. So let's put out some ideas:

1) Each tier of Disorientation applies a 5% chance for AoE skills to apply a 2s Daze to marked targets (5 tiers)
2) Each tier of Disorientation applies a 5% chance to reduce target finesse by 4% per tier (5 tiers)
3) Each tier of Disorientation applies a 5% chance for Response skills to apply a 2% miss chance/tier effect lasts for 10s and cannot occur more that once every 20s. (5 tiers)

1) Could be okay, I think, but it might overlap with Shield-smash cause it has a Stun. It might also do funny thing with War-chant, given its massive range. On the other hand, it gives Sweeping Cut and Vexing Blow a use, so maybe tie this version to that? Although, Guardian has more than enough CC already.
2) Could be okay too....nothing really to say here about it.
3) This is also okay...

One thing however is to lower the trait point requirements....as I wrote before, Guardian has too many % chance to happen traits that just feel bad unless you have them maxed out.

Let me think some more about Manifested Ire. It's meant to punish you for not attacking te Guardian - I think te issue is that when a Guardian tank is doing their job right, this would never trigger. If you had this as a Keen Blade guardian it would likely always trigger and not really affect much, honestly.

If the target fails to attack the Guardian for 6 seconds, they suffer an outgoing damage debuff for a short duration.
Edit: Make it a pre-requisite that a hit has to be scored on the Guardian, a timed debuff is placed on a target and if they do not attack the Guardian, the debuff activates

[SSG_Orion]

@zip

The damage debuff would heavily skew toward Keen Blade guards. Though, I might be able to combo it out.

[zipfile]

[B][COLOR="#A52A2A"]
Protection

I disagree that this would remain useless if affects the entire fellowship. Though, I wonder if swapping this to [B][COLOR="#0000CD"]The Defender of the Free[ would make more sense, replacing the BPE with a small damage reduction, and a small chance for fellowship members to resist interrupt effects.

Look, there has never been a group, in the history of this game, that has said: Man, if we have 1% extra BPE on the Minstrel/Hunter, we would've survived

As aforementioned, make Protection apply a different buff based on which line the Guardian is specialized in:

If Blue, Guardian takes 20% less damage from Shield-walls target (Similar to the Guardian's Abyss set)
If Red, Guardian deals extra damage if the target affected by Protection By The Sword is attacked.

[zipfile]

@zip

The damage debuff would heavily skew toward Keen Blade guards. Though, I might be able to combo it out.

@orion

Which is why I added the "make it a prerequisite that Guardian has to be attacked"

[SSG_Orion]

Look, there has never been a group, in the history of this game, that has said: Man, if we have 1% extra BPE on the Minstrel/Hunter, we would've survived

As aforementioned, make Protection apply a different buff based on which line the Guardian is specialized in:

If Blue, Guardian takes 20% less damage from Shield-walls target (Similar to the Guardian's Abyss set)
If Red, Guardian deals extra damage if the target affected by Protection By The Sword is attacked.

I think that is what I was alluding to in potentially swapping out the BPE and moving it to Defender of the Free, where it feels more related.

[Rino90]

Good evening. I wanted to take a moment and let you all know where we are thinking the Guardian will shake out. After reviewing a lot of the feedback here and taking a step back to play through the current specs, we are looking at the following:

Hi Orion! I have just had a huge number of questions. Let's go in order:

For choosing this specialization you will earn te Skill Overwhelm
This specialization will no longer provide the skill Force Opening - See change to The Figher of Shadow for more details.

This takes away the red line's ability to guarantee a parry response without investing in other lines. More and more I'm convinced that the developers should just additionally add opening parry response for Guardian's Ward to the red line specialization and replace the bonus of the current red set.

Thrill of Battle

5 Tiers
Damaging Attacks in combat increase your Critical Chance by 1%/tier
Cap of 5 stacks (5%)
Critical srikes removes the effect; effect lasts for 20 seconds

I understand correctly that when studying five levels of this trait, the maximum possible chance will be 25% (at 1% per tier, ie 5% and a maximum of 5 stacks)?

Reactive Parry
Becomes Reactive Response and Adds the same effect to Block events

Even renaming the trait now implies an response. Reinforce all response skills, or add some new effect to them. If you're so eager to implement block damage mechanics, you'd better expand the spike mechanics for shield or blue talent "Improved Shield Spikes".

Thurst
No longer requires a parry/block event.
Cooldown increases to 12s

12 seconds of cooldown is too much, at least reduce it to 10.

And now on to the most important and sparingly described - the interaction of all former yellow traits with each other and with the traits of other lines.

Bastion of Light
Formerly Take to Heart
Gurardian activates a toggle aura on themselves that marks up to 3 enemies within 5 meters. Marked targets have a reduced chance to hit and are more susceptible to debuffs applied by the Guardian.

Will this skill be affected by legacies on the number of targets?

Radiate

Requires Bastion of Light

15+

Will the mark from "Bastion of Light", debuff from red "Rupture", bleed be copied? Please list all the effects that can be copied.

Flash of Light

Trained SKill

Transforms Damage on marked Targets to Light

25+

Will only the guardian's damag be transformed, or the entire raid? How can I guarantee that the mark will be on the assist if "Bastion of Light" is hanging marks randomly?

Mark of Permanence

Becomes a Trainable Trait

Incapacitate

Becomes a trainable trait.

That is the current thinking.

Similar to "Radiate". What effects will be affected by these traits? Similar to "Flash of Light". How can I guarantee that the mark will be on the assist if "Bastion of Light" is hanging marks randomly?

About unnamed traits:

Insult to Injury
There's some madness going on at the moment with the updated bleeds. Will this trait affect Rupture?

Tenderize
It's worth changing the trigger of this talent from parrying to getting a response.

Warrior's Fortitude
Will these traits still remain in every line? Will they stack?

Singular Focus
Will the debuff be enhanced? It's weaker than other classes at the moment.

Cataclysmic Shout
Will there be any comments about it? Will it remain a useless nonsense with a huge kuldown and cool animation? Again, what debuffs will it copy?

A little bit of my comments.

A lot depends on what effects will be copied, updated or become permanent. For example permanent "Rupture" which can be copied by AOE skills on the whole pack of mobs is a very strong debuff.
As for "Bastion of Light", the aura around the guardian is not the best option for a skill with a limited number of targets. Need to be sure that all effects associated with "Bastion of Light" will hang on a particular mob (boss or assisted target). Perhaps the best solution would be a mark similar to the current "Take to Heart" but with an AoE effect around the target, or a way to quickly get a mark on the desired target.

And in the name of creation, add some extra scaling (physical mastery, critical rating, or finesse) to the main guardian stat.

[zipfile]

I think that is what I was alluding to in potentially swapping out the BPE and moving it to Defender of the Free, where it feels more related.

Since we're discussing traits and their effects, can we discuss the plethora of others too?

• Reactive Parry
• Prey On The Weak
• Invigourating Parry
• Insult To Injury (Obsolete by the fact that Permanence will exist)
• Bolster/Tenderize (In practice, these will not proc on a Keen Blade specialized Guardian)
• All 3 Warriors Fortitude traits (These could just be singular traits, removing the need to use Warriors Heart for them to activate)
• Adding in Protection By The Sword for good measure too

[SSG_Orion]

This takes away the red line's ability to guarantee a parry response without investing in other lines. More and more I'm convinced that the developers should just additionally add opening parry response for Guardian's Ward to the red branch specialization and replace the bonus of the current red set.

This puts the skill into a Tier 1 Utility effect. one point outside of the trait tree.

I understand correctly that when studying five levels of this trait, the maximum possible chance will be 25% (at 1% per level, ie 5% and a maximum of 5 stacks)?

Answered in a later post, yes.

Even renaming the trait now implies an response.

Name can change, the power aspect will remain.

12 seconds of cooldown is too much, at least reduce it to 10.

There will likely be a way to reduce this, yes.

Will this skill be affected by legacies on the number of targets?

Potentially, though this could get out of hand.

Will the tag from Bastion of Light, debuff from red Rupture, bleed be copied? Please list all the effects that can be copied.

Bleeds are not debuffs, under the current wording. The debuffs are more - attack speed, miss chance, outgoing damage, and attack speed.

Will only the guardian's damag be transformed, or the entire raid? How can I guarantee that the mark will be on the assist if "Bastion of Light" is hanging tags randomly?

Guardian alone.

Similar to "Radiate". What effects will be affected by these traits? Similar to "Flash of Light". How can I guarantee that a tag will be on an assist if "Bastion of Light" puts tags on the target randomly?

Bastion of Light will not apply "randomly" per se. It will apply to the number of targets that it can hit. Debuffs will normally apply to only targets that are hit. With radiate, that range is effectively extended.

Insult to Injury
Will it fix the effect of this talent on the updated bleed (now they are going some inexplicable madness). Will it affect Rupture?

Bleeds, in this case are not debuffs.

Tenderize
It's worth changing the trigger of this talent from parrying to getting a response.

Oh, good catch, yes that should be any combat response.

Warrior's Fortitude
Will these traits stay in every branch? Will they stack?

Yes and yes.

Singular Focus
Will the debuff be enhanced? It's weaker than other classes at the moment

If it needs to be adjusted it will be.

Cataclysmic Shout
Will there be any comments about it? Will it remain a useless nonsense with a huge kuldown and cool animation? Again, what debuffs will it copy?

Debuffs are outlined above and marked targets would get the debuff that increases damage.

A lot depends on what effects will be copied, updated or become permanent. For example permanent "Rupture" which can be copied by AOE skills on the whole pack of mobs is a very strong debuff.

Rupture is not a debuff, it's a skill modifier.

As for "Bastion of Light", the aura around the guardian is not the best option for a skill with a limited number of targets. Need to be sure that all effects associated with "Bastion of Light" will hang on a particular mob (boss or assisted target). Perhaps the best solution would be a mark similar to the current "Take to Heart" but with an AoE effect around the target, or a way to quickly get a mark on the desired target.

It will adjust the way that guardian might need to position, but moving the effect to the guardian is, imo, not as bad as you would think.

[Khluzainn]

Orion please...

I will keep it short.

I can live with most of the proposed changes. The red guard currently has a great rotation as it stands now it just doesn't have good tuning and it has too many useless tools.

Please just give the class a 5% crit trait like everyone else. It doesnt need to be complicated.

Please reconsider the thrust changes to the CD as the current rotation is actually surprisingly good.

The final and most important comment I will leave is on the Rupture skill.

PLEASE DO NOT GO DOWN THE ROAD OF CASHOUTS!! Rwarden is currently sitting in regret having thought this was some kind of good idea. Cashouts have been used before in other MMOs many times and are almost always patched out immediatly(thinking sub rogue from WOW as the worst offender) because they NEVER work in reality or actual fights.
The only time cashouts are worth it are either in PVP where dps is less of an idea then planned burst etc. In PVE if the cashout does not apply more damage then ALL of the cashed out effects PLUS all of the time it would take to reapply them then it is a WASTE. There is no getting around this.

My suggestion would be to make Rupture, a very BLEED sounding skill, actually interact with bleeds/add a bleed/or add a bleed mechanic other than cash out.

The best example I could come up with off of the top of my head is this : Rupture - Hammer Down now applies a bleed dealing X damage for 5s, this bleed is extended for each bleed currently on the target up to a max of 20s. This not only adds another bleed to a BLEED based spec for the theme but it gives value to a skill that is just pressed of CD for a little bit of damage. This is just one example I have thought up many better things off the top of my head in just 5 min.

If that is too hard to implement then you could just do somthing simple with the trait like this : Rupture - Hammer Down and TTK increased bleed damage by 25% for 5s. This would enforce a solid and tight rotation where you would try as hard as you can to get through your chains and use TTK every 5-7 seconds to keep your (SPEC THEME) ableed damage pumping.

Honestly I would even accept the your current idea of Rupture, but just dont cashout the bleeds. Every other dps class in the game doenst need to completely destory its damage to get a 10% damage buff. Please think about this.

Im glad guardian is getting looked at. There is a lot of potential here.

Thanks for reading.

[Rino90]

Bleeds, in this case are not debuffs.

I understand that bleeding is not a debuff, but at the moment, all these descriptions of skills and talents do not correspond to reality (Insult to Injury for example updates bleeding), so I pay so much attention to this issue.

[Belnavar]

Firstly, I think making Yellow line a non-spec utility line is the right choice.

I'll have more feedback another time, but just wanted to chime in on these:

1) When struck by a skill (skill, not effect) that critically damages the guardian, they become immune to critical/devastating criticals for 10s
2) When struck by a skill the guardian applies a mitigation buff against the skill source (tactical or physical) that stacks up to 3 times and lasts for 10s
3) When the target blocks. parries, or evades, increase your finesse up to 3 stacks for 10s.

Option 2 sounds like the best here (and one that Guardians may actually trait for). This is assuming that the buff goes above the standard mit cap.

1) Each tier of Disorientation applies a 5% chance for AoE skills to apply a 2s Daze to marked targets (5 tiers)
2) Each tier of Disorientation applies a 5% chance to reduce target finesse by 4% per tier (5 tiers)
3) Each tier of Disorientation applies a 5% chance for Response skills to apply a 2% miss chance/tier effect lasts for 10s and cannot occur more that once every 20s. (5 tiers)

Option 3 sounds the most interesting, followed by Option 2. The problem with Option 1 is that some content makes uncontrolled dazes/stuns a problem, as mobs then gain immunity. I also think a 5% chance is way too low and wouldn't make this worth traiting (even at tier 5 it would just be 25%). In comparison, Captains can get a guaranteed AOE stun on Routing Cry, which is far more useful in certain (but not all) content. For the miss chance, however, a 25% chance to apply a 10% miss chance might actually be worth taking.

-Bel

[SSG_Orion]

Since we're discussing traits and their effects, can we discuss the plethora of others too?

• Reactive Parry
• Prey On The Weak
• Invigourating Parry
• Insult To Injury (Obsolete by the fact that Permanence will exist)
• Bolster/Tenderize (In practice, these will not proc on a Keen Blade specialized Guardian)
• All 3 Warriors Fortitude traits (These could just be singular traits, removing the need to use Warriors Heart for them to activate)
• Adding in Protection By The Sword for good measure too

Sure.

We are discussing.

I will caveat this though, utility traits don't necessarily need to be usable in the other trait lines. They can be good for one but not the other.

[SSG_Orion]

I also think a 5% chance is way too low and wouldn't make this worth traiting (even at tier 5 it would just be 25%). In comparison, Captains can get a guaranteed AOE stun on Routing Cry, which is far more useful in certain (but not all) content. For the miss chance, however, a 25% chance to apply a 10% miss chance might actually be worth taking.

-Bel

Since the effect would last for 10 seconds, the likelihood that it will trigger is pretty high when you at 25% - as with all numbers though, they can be modified to fit where they should and there ae always traceries.

[SSG_Orion]

On Rupture, since I am monitoring other places as well. There are some concerns about this being a cashout.

It is possible that it will change. I could see a place where it is a cashout, that re-applies a heftier bleed that lasts as long as the damage buff - but, it is meant to be an additive to the rotation not a detraction. Nothing set in stone.

And, there are some questions on my conservative approach to numbers. TBH, my original take on Minstrel revamp and Champion revamp from way, way, back in the day has me hesitant. The numbers will work out. We want the off-DPS specs to be within about 90% of the main DPS rotations when played well. In this case, the guardian would be weighed against the expected melee sustained DPS leaaders, Champion.

[Khluzainn]

On Rupture, since I am monitoring other places as well. There are some concerns about this being a cashout.

It is possible that it will change. I could see a place where it is a cashout, that re-applies a heftier bleed that lasts as long as the damage buff - but, it is meant to be an additive to the rotation not a detraction. Nothing set in stone.

And, there are some questions on my conservative approach to numbers. TBH, my original take on Minstrel revamp and Champion revamp from way, way, back in the day has me hesitant. The numbers will work out. We want the off-DPS specs to be within about 90% of the main DPS rotations when played well.

Really glad to see you reading our feedback.

If the guardian is still a bleed themed class it would be great to see bleeds rise and be major damage contributors. Other specs like champion and captain, who are not bleed themed have 1-2 bleeds that currently do more damage then all 4 guardian bleeds combined. Just a thought to keep in mind. In the case of champion on a 3min parse deep wounds plus rend all do more damage then guardian bleeds combined. As for captain grave wound by itself does more dps then the 3 main bleeds of guardian excluding deep wound. Once you add in cutting attack captains almost double guardians entire bleed damage profile. Just an FYI.
If you dont believe me I have DPS parses for all of the latest classes to prove it haha.

Thanks again for reading our feedback.

[zipfile]

Sure.

We are discussing.

I will caveat this though, utility traits don't necessarily need to be usable in the other trait lines. They can be good for one but not the other.

What's going on with Reactive Parry and why do you insist on keeping it like this?

Can we make something happen out of Prey On The Weak?
Back in the day, it was really good, a bit of extra damage with a decent heal. Granted, the whole Radiate Bleed spread made it utterly broken, but it felt like a powerful trait.
Current one...is just bad. It's horrible for single target cause its damage is bad and it's not even that good in AOE cause it's from Slashing Wound.
Bring back old stacking Brutal Assault Bleed

Invigourating Parry....I mean....yeah....maybe make it a sustain trait that you can sometimes pick up...IDK.

Insult To Injury doesn't need to exist cause of Mark Of Permanence does. Maybe make it a Vitality trait?

Bolster and Tenderize just feel weird, especially in DPS specs.
Change it from Block/Parry events to playing a Block/Parry skill giving the buff, that way it's better. Maybe as a nerf, make it expire in combat if chains aren't played?

All 3 Warriors Fortitude traits should be passive traits without WH needing to be used, at the least.

And I've explained Protection By The Sword before, it has a lot of potential but....yeah...

[Khluzainn]

What's going on with Reactive Parry and why do you insist on keeping it like this?

Can we make something happen out of Prey On The Weak?
Back in the day, it was really good, a bit of extra damage with a decent heal. Granted, the whole Radiate Bleed spread made it utterly broken, but it felt like a powerful trait.
Current one...is just bad. It's horrible for single target cause its damage is bad and it's not even that good in AOE cause it's from Slashing Wound.
Bring back old stacking Brutal Assault Bleed

Invigourating Parry....I mean....yeah....maybe make it a sustain trait that you can sometimes pick up...IDK.

Insult To Injury doesn't need to exist cause of Mark Of Permanence does. Maybe make it a Vitality trait?

Bolster and Tenderize just feel weird, especially in DPS specs.
Change it from Block/Parry events to playing a Block/Parry skill giving the buff, that way it's better. Maybe as a nerf, make it expire in combat if chains aren't played?

All 3 Warriors Fortitude traits should be passive traits without WH needing to be used, at the least.

And I've explained Protection By The Sword before, it has a lot of potential but....yeah...

These are all great points of concern too. Personally my first worry is tuning and active skills and traits like Rupture working correct but all of these are pain points.

[SSG_Orion]

Really glad to see you reading our feedback.

If the guardian is still a bleed themed class it would be great to see bleeds rise and be major damage contributors. Other specs like champion and captain, who are not bleed themed have 1-2 bleeds that currently do more damage then all 4 guardian bleeds combined. Just a thought to keep in mind. In the case of champion on a 3min parse deep wounds plus rend all do more damage then guardian bleeds combined. As for captain grave wound by itself does more dps then the 3 main bleeds of guardian excluding deep wound. Once you add in cutting attack captains almost double guardians entire bleed damage profile. Just an FYI.
If you dont believe me I have DPS parses for all of the latest classes to prove it haha.

Thanks again for reading our feedback.

I think the issue with bleeds, is that they sometimes fall victim to fight mechanics. Damage needs to be more consistently output. This may come in te form of straight skill DPS or bleeds, but for the bleeds to have more potency and viability, they need to maximize in a shorter preiod of time. Tough, not so short a time that you could not maximize the other aspects of the rotation - should we push forward on the Rupture trait.

[Khluzainn]

I think the issue with bleeds, is that they sometimes fall victim to fight mechanics. Damage needs to be more consistently output. This may come in te form of straight skill DPS or bleeds, but for the bleeds to have more potency and viability, they need to maximize in a shorter preiod of time. Tough, not so short a time that you could not maximize the other aspects of the rotation - should we push forward on the Rupture trait.

I like this idea of shorter duration but stronger bleeds.

This is what you gusy did for the captain recenntly. You made the bleeds very short(without tracery) and made them both very potent and also tick every second. So captain bleed get a ton of value right now because the tick fast and hard but you just have to manage them slightly more.

I dont mean to get you hung up on bleeds when there is so much more to do but I just dont want it forgot that a class like guardian is bleed based for its whole history and should have bleeds that slap at the end of the day compared to a class like captain which is traditionally a buff and burst class before a bleed one.

[SSG_Orion]

What's going on with Reactive Parry and why do you insist on keeping it like this?

It's only an upside trait. It's gained by simply speccing into what you want to spec into and I believe that the benefit can be adjusted by influencing the damage dealt back to the target.

Can we make something happen out of Prey On The Weak?

Yes. I didn't comment on this one before because I had not worked out my thoughts and was considering that it might just stay. But, looking at it and playing with it...it's weak sauce.

I am thinking that it might just need to increase damage on targets that are:

a) under a health threshhold
b) under the effects of a bleed
c) under the effects of the guardian's debuff

Bring back old stacking Brutal Assault Bleed

Maybe...

Insult To Injury doesn't need to exist cause of Mark Of Permanence does. Maybe make it a Vitality trait?

I don't think I was clear on how the mark would work. The Mark would allow the debuffs to be applied, it would not directly apply the debuffs so the efficacy of Insult to Injury is still viable. Likely in getting the debuffs to apply at very near to 100%

Bolster and Tenderize just feel weird, especially in DPS specs.

Bolster, definitely. Tenderize, maybe, but there feels like more theren.

All 3 Warriors Fortitude traits should be passive traits without WH needing to be used, at the least.

WH would still require a skill play, but the modifiers from the other traits are just passively applied.

And I've explained Protection By The Sword before, it has a lot of potential but....yeah...

I think it's perfectly fine for a gained trait for speccing into the line. It gives a small damage boost and helps you trigger your responses more often. Maybe a small damage retort could be added, but its a freebie. I think it mostly okay where it is.

[SSG_Orion]

The thrust cooldown being at 12s to start is likely going to be a bit high. I think that there would potentially be an adjustment to put it a little lower, but also a potential tracery added to get it down to a more respectable level. Removing the opener is to provide more consistency in the damage - not seep six it. Think of as a potential new opener. I know it messes with the existing rotation, but there are ways to ease it into a new rotation, potentially as an opener - maybe even fording the retaliation line to fire. This would effectivley mimc the force opening functionality, but also allow you to use force opening to immediately unlock the shield chains if you needed to get that stun in.

The goal is to remove the reliance on the parry chain to get that consistent damage and make the opening damage a bit better.

[Kotal]

one thing i like to see addressed for guardian in general is self-buffing skill effects applying on hit instead of on use.

on captain, for example, it does not matter if your battle shout hits or not: whenever you use that skill, you will be in battle-readied.
on guardian, on the other hand, if shield blow, guardian's ward or force opening miss, their desired effects (responses or self buff) will not occur. this essentially locks buffs behind a finesse check, which is incredibly frustrating, especially when you reach a new level cap and start doing the new content without high finesse. and in the past many years, the tanking gear that was available has never provided sufficient finesse for that.

[SSG_Orion]

one thing i like to see addressed for guardian in general is self-buffing skill effects applying on hit instead of on use.

on captain, for example, it does not matter if your battle shout hits or not: whenever you use that skill, you will be in battle-readied.
on guardian, on the other hand, if shield blow, guardian's ward or force opening miss, their desired effects (responses or self buff) will not occur. this essentially locks buffs behind a finesse check, which is incredibly frustrating, especially when you reach a new level cap and start doing the new content without high finesse. and in the past many years, the tanking gear that was available has never provided sufficient finesse for that.

Yes, this is something that we want to have more consistency in.