Forced March

[Tepee]

After sitting on my Warden for years, I thought that now is the time, after a major revamp that I finally start leveling him who never got past the Lone-Lands. There were a lot of changes, but I was still disappointed.

I never got past the Lone-Lands not because the class was too hard for me, instead it was just too annoying for me.
The skill "Forced March" is there for a reason: the speed boost it provides is much useful for not losing the gambit you built from the last fight, and execute it on the next enemy.
But my mind simply cannot understand why I should press a key after each and every mob that I kill in like 2-3 hits to give me an out-of-combat(!!!) run speed boost that deactivates in combat.
Of course, I can play without pressing this skill, but then there is the stress that I'm losing optimality because I'm a "noob" who just can't play this class, and cannot just press a freaking key after every combat. So I press it. So playing becomes working. Working is stressful. Stress becomes hate and fear, and I just don't want to look at this class.
Sure, many people can say the problem is with me, but then you can say this to all other people complaining about it. And judging the popularity of this class, I can say more people are stressed than joyful when they think about this class.

So, as much as I appreciate the work the developers put in to make all of the classes more interesting and beginner-friendly, the work on the Warden was wasted from my own perspective, and I will still refuse to play this class, until there will be a solution for the paradox that Hunters (a much easier and beginner friendly class, I would say the best class for learning the game) don't have to press a key after each and every single defeated goblin/orc/anything, but Wardens should indeed need to press it.

I searched for it, and basically this has been the case since Wardens were introduced, but especially after Helm's Deep, when Forced March has changed a bit, there was no explanation from the dev team, why this skill works as it is, nor solution for the situation, and people like me constantly complaining about it.
Sometimes less is more, and I do think that this skill has much more impact on the popularity of the class, than all of the changes made in the last patch.

TLDR: the Warden revamp hasn't solved the biggest problem with Wardens, which is that I still only have 5 fingers on my left hand, and not 8. The skill "Forced March" should work like the Hunter skill "Find the Path", so that it doesn't deactivates in combat, and continues to provide it's benefit right after exiting the combat.

[Thurallor]

After sitting on my Warden for years, I thought that now is the time, after a major revamp that I finally start leveling him who never got past the Lone-Lands. There were a lot of changes, but I was still disappointed.

I never got past the Lone-Lands not because the class was too hard for me, instead it was just too annoying for me.
The skill "Forced March" is there for a reason: the speed boost it provides is much useful for not losing the gambit you built from the last fight, and execute it on the next enemy.
But my mind simply cannot understand why I should press a key after each and every mob that I kill in like 2-3 hits to give me an out-of-combat(!!!) run speed boost that deactivates in combat.
Of course, I can play without pressing this skill, but then there is the stress that I'm losing optimality because I'm a "noob" who just can't play this class, and cannot just press a freaking key after every combat. So I press it. So playing becomes working. Working is stressful. Stress becomes hate and fear, and I just don't want to look at this class.
Sure, many people can say the problem is with me, but then you can say this to all other people complaining about it. And judging the popularity of this class, I can say more people are stressed than joyful when they think about this class.

So, as much as I appreciate the work the developers put in to make all of the classes more interesting and beginner-friendly, the work on the Warden was wasted from my own perspective, and I will still refuse to play this class, until there will be a solution for the paradox that Hunters (a much easier and beginner friendly class, I would say the best class for learning the game) don't have to press a key after each and every single defeated goblin/orc/anything, but Wardens should indeed need to press it.

I searched for it, and basically this has been the case since Wardens were introduced, but especially after Helm's Deep, when Forced March has changed a bit, there was no explanation from the dev team, why this skill works as it is, nor solution for the situation, and people like me constantly complaining about it.
Sometimes less is more, and I do think that this skill has much more impact on the popularity of the class, than all of the changes made in the last patch.

TLDR: the Warden revamp hasn't solved the biggest problem with Wardens, which is that I still only have 5 fingers on my left hand, and not 8.

I think if you played the class more, you would find that that is far from the biggest problem with the Warden. Once you assign a hotkey to Forced March and get in the habit of pressing it each time you leave combat, this diminishes to a very tiny problem indeed.

[Valather89]

It's pretty baffling that Forced March didn't get an update after how many times I've seen people requesting -more like begging at this point- for it to change. Especially after seeing this post from OnnMacMahal, who tackled the class revamp:

I didn’t see it in your post but maybe forced march can stay on? That would be a nice quality of life bonus.

Sure, why not.

Maybe he forgot? Maybe there's some unknown technical issue? who knows --but let's cross our fingers for a patch to fix this once and for all.

[Bromlin]

I second this. Please patch in this tiny change that would be such a big quality of life improvement. Warden players have been asking since ages for this, and it is neither a balancing issue nor (probably) hard to fix.

[PreemptiveRegret]

It's pretty baffling that Forced March didn't get an update after how many times I've seen people requesting -more like begging at this point- for it to change. Especially after seeing this post from OnnMacMahal, who tackled the class revamp:



Maybe he forgot? Maybe there's some unknown technical issue? who knows --but let's cross our fingers for a patch to fix this once and for all.

The Forced March change didn't get through?

[Guidorocker]

Huh??

I must be using Forced March wrong...

I use it for the plus +38 percent movement and run speed!
Wardens are the fastest runners in the game!

[PreemptiveRegret]

Huh??

I must be using Forced March wrong...

I use it for the plus +38 percent movement and run speed!
Wardens are the fastest runners in the game!

https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Wan...eorning_Skill)

[Guidorocker]

actually this is the link:
https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Forced_March


And yes, it is not convenient to press it each time. That is a huge bonus that NO other class has! If you press it after combat you can run much faster.

Try playing a Warden, then playing any other class. You feel like you have become SOooooooooooooooooo SLOW!

[Laubgaenger]

actually this is the link:
https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Forced_March


And yes, it is not convenient to press it each time. That is a huge bonus that NO other class has! If you press it after combat you can run much faster.

Try playing a Warden, then playing any other class. You feel like you have become SOooooooooooooooooo SLOW!

I think you do not get the Points.
Hunters stay in Out of Combats Speed, it is only deactiveted, while in fights and starts direct after the fight working.
Wardens have to activate it. And if you are to fast, it does not activate direct.

The Link, that was posted, shows, that you wrong with your optinion, that the Warden is the fastes Class in game.
My tip is, to read the first post to get, what the Opener is talking about.
Maybe not so fast :-)

[WorrBinpike]

Dont nail me for it, but i MAY read something in the bullroarder forums that the "always on" is technically not possible for some reasons or would need some invested developer time.

But i may exchange it with an other skill for warden.

[Tepee]

I think if you played the class more, you would find that that is far from the biggest problem with the Warden. Once you assign a hotkey to Forced March and get in the habit of pressing it each time you leave combat, this diminishes to a very tiny problem indeed.

I did this? This is what I'm talking about? It is just annoying. If there were a change that Hunter's "Find the Path" skill would deactivate in combat, and I should press a key after combat each and every time, I would quit playing my Hunter.
Both classes can be played ranged, and if I kill a mob in like 2-3 hits, and should press a key after each one, that is a 33-50% more effort to level the class that it would take if it wouldn't deactivate.
Not to mention that "Forced March" is out-of-combat only, and Wardens don't have a normal "Charge"-like skill like Guardians and every other melee class do, so running-gathering mobs and AoE is not a fast option to clear areas either.

[Tepee]

I think you do not get the Points.
Hunters stay in Out of Combats Speed, it is only deactiveted, while in fights and starts direct after the fight working.
Wardens have to activate it. And if you are to fast, it does not activate direct.

Edited the post that make it clearer, thank you. (Now that I'm not actively upset. )

[Laubgaenger]

Dont nail me for it, but i MAY read something in the bullroarder forums that the "always on" is technically not possible for some reasons or would need some invested developer time.

But i may exchange it with an other skill for warden.

How often we read it.
How often they copied mechanics?

The Question is maybe more, why not already copy the Hunters Mechanic, rename it and make it self only.
In a later Update they could switch the Find Path Icon with the Forced March one. :-)

[Halphast]

https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Wan...eorning_Skill)

-Beorning's boost is faster, but it significantly limits what your character can do.
-Guardian's boost is faster than Warden but doesn't last very long and has a cooldown.
-Hunter's boost automatically reactivates after a fight and affects the whole party - but it's slower than Warden.

Even having to activate Forced March after a fight it's the fastest *useful* speed boost in the game. I agree that it's an extra click/keypress after every fight but that's the only drawback. All the other speed boosts listed above have drawbacks too- and Wardens are used to lots of extra clicks/keypresses to activate one skill.

I say quit while we're ahead. If devs make Forced March auto-activate like the Hunter version, they would likely consider it "unbalanced" and make it slower- we'll end up worse off than we are now.

[Tepee]

I say quit while we're ahead. If devs make Forced March auto-activate like the Hunter version, they would likely consider it "unbalanced" and make it slower- we'll end up worse off than we are now.

I would trade a 38% must click with a 30% automatic.

But the thing is, there are a lot of posts, where the devs say something like:
"Clutter and quality of life, imho. At early levels this might not seem that important but as we level and earn more skills our bar becomes ever more cluttered with skills that can only be used under certain circumstances. Additionally, I think that the disruption in the tradition skill bar by initializing the skill flyout causes an unnecessary break in the traditional APS for players because it requires an awkward key combination or drifting mouseclick to execute."

This is from a Guardian proposed change from Orion. I think it definitely applies to the "Forced March" too.

And balance... Compare the Guardian 72% speed boost to the Champion 25% speed boost. Each class has unique properties, Champions are better than Guardians in other ways, and Hunters would still be better in a lot of other ways than the Warden. It's just ""Clutter and quality of life, imho." Do it.

[Thurallor]

I would trade a 38% must click with a 30% automatic.

I wouldn't.

[bohbashum]

I can understand why its annoying but im going to pipe in i prefer it this way.

Its that tiny bit if movement optimisation that feels satisfying.

Wouldnt be upset if it was passive, just a little less... interactive?

[Halphast]

I would trade a 38% must click with a 30% automatic.

I would not.

[Tepee]

I wouldn't.

I would not.

Then give us a 30% automatic, and keep the 38% clickable.
So you are able to click for that juicy 8%...

The main thing is not about this, I'm not a Warden main, I'm just a casual on that class, more like a starter.
Of course there is no way they would decrease that 38% to 30%. As a Guardian main, if the speed of Charge was to be decreased, I would be outraged as hell too.

But honestly, it is against the principles of the recent development direction, which want to simplify everything.
Just logically, in my mind I cannot understand why it works as it is. If some developer would come here, and say something like "Hunters work this way, because they are a beginner class, and Wardens are an advanced class", would be fine for me. I wouldn't agree, but I would keep my mouth shut.

[Thurallor]

Ok, your main is a Guardian. How would you react if someone created a thread touting the "main problem with Guardians" as some small annoyance that has zero impact on your effectiveness as a tank, your ability to solo, or your viability in PvMP or an end-game raid, or basically anything you really care about? "The main problem with Guardians is that we don't have convenient travel skills like hunters and wardens."

I would suggest that you wait until you are no longer "casual" before trying to redirect development efforts towards changing the class.

[Tepee]

Ok, your main is a Guardian. How would you react if someone created a thread touting the "main problem with Guardians" as some small annoyance that has zero impact on your effectiveness as a tank, your ability to solo, or your viability in PvMP or an end-game raid, or basically anything you really care about? "The main problem with Guardians is that we don't have convenient travel skills like hunters and wardens."

I would suggest that you wait until you are no longer "casual" before trying to redirect development efforts towards changing the class.

What is your opinion on this topic exactly? Other than you want me to shut my damn mouth?

If someone would talk about annoying things about Guardians for example, in a constructive, rational way, I would happily engage in a conversation with them.

Zero impact on anything I care about? Maybe I care about more things than you could possibly imagine. If you would see a little more far than you used to be, you could see, that I'm talking about the popularity of the class amongst beginners.
Not raid, not PvMP, not any of the level-cap stuff. Just about the feeling about trying out this class. And because of this skill, I will never pass the level you imagined in your head that is required (by you) to qualify myself as someone who is capable of talking about Wardens.

If there were a change that I have to press a button after every combat, because otherwise my "Charge" skill won't start cooling down, I would be also angry, and refuse to play Guardian until it is resolved. This change wouldn't impact any endgame stuff. It would be just annoying. And pointless. And worthless.
Imagine a pop-up advertisement after every combat that you have to close every time. What is exactly the difference? Yes, one thing is annoying, and the other affects gameplay. Not gameplay performance, but gameplay enjoyability.

If you just care about the +5% crit chance you gain in a patch, care nothing about the accessibilyty and convinience you lose in an update, well... you live in a wrong world. I know it is not the case, but then please next time be respectful with others who are just trying enjoy the same game as a same kind of human. If you have a lvl140 Warden and I have lvl32 Warden, does that mean that you worth more than me as a person? Because if your answer is no, then please don't act otherwise. Thank you for your understanding.

Cheers.

[Thurallor]

I'm sorry if my comments came across as harsh. I only wanted to state my opinion that I don't think that the majority of people who play warden would classify this as "the main problem" with the class. That's really my only objection to this thread. However, you are entitled to your opinion and have the right to state it on this forum.

To me, hitting my "Forced March" hotkey at the end of combat is no more annoying than hitting Tab at the beginning of combat, to select my target. It's just one of those automatic things that you have to do every time. I even like the drumbeat sound that accompanies the skill. It tells everyone around me "okay, let's not loiter, let's go" as I zoom off down the trail.

[Tepee]

I'm sorry if my comments came across as harsh. I only wanted to state my opinion that I don't think that the majority of people who play warden would classify this as "the main problem" with the class. That's really my only objection to this thread. However, you are entitled to your opinion and have the right to state it on this forum.

To me, hitting my "Forced March" hotkey at the end of combat is no more annoying than hitting Tab at the beginning of combat, to select my target. It's just one of those automatic things that you have to do every time. I even like the drumbeat sound that accompanies the skill. It tells everyone around me "okay, let's not loiter, let's go."

Well, thank you, this is a much more constructive response.

I apologise if my original post caused misunderstanding. I just wanted to say, as a beginner (of this class), however, someone, who played 7+ years of this game with other classes, I just feel something not good about the Warden when playing it, and I found out that this skill is the source of my annoyance, because I so much got used to my Hunter (my second highest class), that I just cannot understand why these two mechanics works differently.

Maybe I was too annoyed when I posted this, and exaggerated the thing, I apologise for it. But please understand that I played this class the least (tied to my Brawler) so I'm considered as a beginner, yes, but I am very much not a beginner in LOTRO as a whole, and I can compare all eleven classes.

And after the recent update, I tried out the revamped Warden, and found out that is still the most annoying class for me.

I really, really want to love this class, but I just cant. And if this is what's holding back beginners from choosing Warden as a main, it's worth a try I think.
If you are a Warden main, then I think our goal is the same: make this class more popular, more accessible. Maybe this problem is not a big problem, but definitely contributes to "beginner unfriendliness" of the class.

[Halphast]

...because I so much got used to my Hunter (my second highest class), that I just cannot understand why these two mechanics works differently.
...
And after the recent update, I tried out the revamped Warden, and found out that is still the most annoying class for me.

I really, really want to love this class, but I just cant. And if this is what's holding back beginners from choosing Warden as a main, it's worth a try I think.
If you are a Warden main, then I think our goal is the same: make this class more popular, more accessible. Maybe this problem is not a big problem, but definitely contributes to "beginner unfriendliness" of the class.

I really like the more constructive and friendly tone of this more recent exchange. So please read this in that same spirit and not as argumentative.

For me I played Warden before Hunter and had the opposite experience because my standard was Warden. So with Hunter everything feels like a convenience decision: tracking, more travel, instant escape, one-click skills, best DPS in the game (for most updates). To put it in the most un-charitable terms, Hunter feels too easy and got boring for me. So there's definitely an element of personal preference between the two classes- and maybe that means they're exactly where they need to be.

I am very curious to try out a brand new Warden from level 1 and see how information is presented to players over time. See what the learning curve really feels like for someone who's trying for the first time.

Back to the subject of Forced March compared to Find the Path-- I think it's a good tradeoff really. Hunters get their boost all the time but it's a little slower; Wardens have to reactivate after combat but it's a little faster.

[jani16]

After sitting on my Warden for years, I thought that now is the time, after a major revamp that I finally start leveling him who never got past the Lone-Lands. There were a lot of changes, but I was still disappointed.

I never got past the Lone-Lands not because the class was too hard for me, instead it was just too annoying for me.
The skill "Forced March" is there for a reason: the speed boost it provides is much useful for not losing the gambit you built from the last fight, and execute it on the next enemy.
But my mind simply cannot understand why I should press a key after each and every mob that I kill in like 2-3 hits to give me an out-of-combat(!!!) run speed boost that deactivates in combat.
Of course, I can play without pressing this skill, but then there is the stress that I'm losing optimality because I'm a "noob" who just can't play this class, and cannot just press a freaking key after every combat. So I press it. So playing becomes working. Working is stressful. Stress becomes hate and fear, and I just don't want to look at this class.
Sure, many people can say the problem is with me, but then you can say this to all other people complaining about it. And judging the popularity of this class, I can say more people are stressed than joyful when they think about this class.

So, as much as I appreciate the work the developers put in to make all of the classes more interesting and beginner-friendly, the work on the Warden was wasted from my own perspective, and I will still refuse to play this class, until there will be a solution for the paradox that Hunters (a much easier and beginner friendly class, I would say the best class for learning the game) don't have to press a key after each and every single defeated goblin/orc/anything, but Wardens should indeed need to press it.

I searched for it, and basically this has been the case since Wardens were introduced, but especially after Helm's Deep, when Forced March has changed a bit, there was no explanation from the dev team, why this skill works as it is, nor solution for the situation, and people like me constantly complaining about it.
Sometimes less is more, and I do think that this skill has much more impact on the popularity of the class, than all of the changes made in the last patch.

TLDR: the Warden revamp hasn't solved the biggest problem with Wardens, which is that I still only have 5 fingers on my left hand, and not 8. The skill "Forced March" should work like the Hunter skill "Find the Path", so that it doesn't deactivates in combat, and continues to provide it's benefit right after exiting the combat.

There used to be a -80% max power cost on it, which would decrease your maxium power. If you had 1000 max power, this would decrease into 200 and you had to choose between faster run speed in none threatning areas and turn it off, if you were about to fight and needed more than 20% of your maxium power. If the power cost has been removed, then it propably should work like Hunter's find the path. The initial idea of the mechanic has propably been lost during times and the skill in terms of current enviroment works like a Nokia Windows phone among Androids and iPhones.
I have not been playing since Helms deep/big battles/skill trees since 2012 or 2013, so my apologies if the information is incorrect after Helms deep regarding max power cost. I come to read the forums every now and then for nostalgic reasons, but I have zero intrest to start play the game itself