U35 questions and comments

[Halphast]

-Why did Hampering Javelin lose its root?

-The loss of Seize the Moment is profound. The new mechanisms for resetting masteries don't nearly make up for what we've lost. Warden feels slower than ever-- but having to spell things out with builders makes a more active experience.

-In what situations are Advanced Techniques worth it? By the time I complete enough chains to get Advanced Techniques, the cashout skill only gives a tiny boost that lasts a very short time-- so far it seems better to ignore gambit chains and just use the most powerful gambits as fast as I can spell them out. That's not having the desired effect of gambit chains becoming relevant again.

-The update release notes mention several skills that cash out Advanced Techniques but I only seem to have one: Way of the Spear/Shield/Fist which doesn't seem to do much (see above). (I'm traited as red/yellow)

-Am I using the cash-out gambits correctly? I experimented with 123, 1231, 12312, then "cashed out" all three with 12121... but the cash out damage was awful, a tiny fraction of the total damage if I had let the bleeds play out.

-Power seems to remain irrelevant. Most enemies/groups die quickly enough that my Power never runs out. It takes a huge group of Elite+ enemies for me to run out of power, at which point I'm losing Morale faster than Power anyway.

-Never Surrender is currently worthless. It doesn't help much and it expires too quickly. Why does it expire at all?

I know this is a LOT of complaints. It's going to sound very strange when I say I do actually prefer the new Warden. It's a lot more active and I have a lot more useful gambits than before (previously range-specialized Yellow). Fighting a single target is a blast. I have many options for damage/buffing/debuffing- and I finally can heal myself in a more meaningful way. But I do think some of the changes haven't had the desired effect, and the previous warden's impressive AoE has diminished somewhat.

[Tralfazz]

-Why did Hampering Javelin lose its root?

That, and the loss of the daze (with grace period) on Ranged Boar’s Rush, the ability to get Marked Target on multiple opponents with one toss, and any number of other former Yellow and ranged gambit perks. No matter how I trait I can’t make my Warden feel like yesterday’s Yellow Warden at all, it plays completely differently.

-The loss of Seize the Moment is profound. The new mechanisms for resetting masteries don't nearly make up for what we've lost. Warden feels slower than ever-- but having to spell things out with builders makes a more active experience.

Builders are now much faster in combat, and even faster outside of combat with prep. The masteries aren’t as important anymore and for a Warden specced deeply into Yellow the builders help the masteries reset quickly. Seize the Moment had a very high up time but was undependable, I actually like today’s feel better than yesterday’s.

-In what situations are Advanced Techniques worth it? By the time I complete enough chains to get Advanced Techniques, the cashout skill only gives a tiny boost that lasts a very short time-- so far it seems better to ignore gambit chains and just use the most powerful gambits as fast as I can spell them out. That's not having the desired effect of gambit chains becoming relevant again.

The lazy way I play, I barely build AT at all. When I do, I was underwhelmed by the effect of using them. I’m sure more aggressive landscape players and certainly raiders will build AT easily but the effect of cashing out AT isn’t very satisfying.

-Am I using the cash-out gambits correctly? I experimented with 123, 1231, 12312, then "cashed out" all three with 12121... but the cash out damage was awful, a tiny fraction of the total damage if I had let the bleeds play out.

Agreed again. While I have enjoyed some truly astounding devastates the bonus damage from even a full cash out isn’t worth it relative to allowing the DOTs to run.

-Power seems to remain irrelevant. Most enemies/groups die quickly enough that my Power never runs out. It takes a huge group of Elite+ enemies for me to run out of power, at which point I'm losing Morale faster than Power anyway.

Power ought to be irrelevant outside of raids and other very difficult play such as high-tier Delvings and challenge instances. No one wants to stand around waiting for Power to regen between landscape mob pulls, especially since this game doesn’t have a “sit-and-eat” mechanic to quickly restore Power (or Morale). Before u35 I would regularly top off the Power for my Hunter and Warden partners on landscape and small instances with my Lore-master, I suspect that might be more necessary now but my big fears related to the Power revamp have so far been unfounded. It would be nice if Power potions restored a larger percentage of the typical Power pool, though. (Morale potions at some tiers are pretty weak, too.)

-Never Surrender is currently worthless. It doesn't help much and it expires too quickly. Why does it expire at all?

Agreed, totally worthless. I can’t speak to usefulness in raid situations, but if you are in combat and at risk of defeat you usually go from greater than 5% to defeated in one hit rather than from somewhere above 5% to somewhere below 5% which is the only way Never Surrender can trigger. At least raise the trigger threshold to 10% but if it’s a button we have to press just before it’s needed I’d rather just have a normal self-heal rather than this mechanic which is a very much less effective version of yesterday’s Never Surrender. Even better, restore the old version of Never Surrender but make the cooldown start after the effect is triggered rather than when the buff is applied, that will prevent two triggers in a very short period of time; preventing that is what I think was the main motivation for changing the skill.

[PreemptiveRegret]

the ability to get Marked Target on multiple opponents with one toss

Doesn't Javelin of Deadly Force do this with traits?

[LagunaD2]

Doesn't Javelin of Deadly Force do this with traits?

Yes it does.

[Chrysamere]

Can't comment about dps atm as I only play blue warden, but from a blue warden of 2008, this is the first time I see gambit execution bit smoother tbh.

Aggro issues seem to be all over and I don't know if it is class specific or general due to the dps boost everyone got. Sometimes not even warning shot gets a target to you.

Survivability wise, I am afraid I m gonna let most of you down by saying that I am almost positive this update didn't make wdn viable for raids t3+ (such as HH). Try tanking Naruhel t3 after update to get a taste of inc dmg and time you have to react and build something.

[Halphast]

Builders are now much faster in combat, and even faster outside of combat with prep. The masteries aren’t as important anymore and for a Warden specced deeply into Yellow the builders help the masteries reset quickly. Seize the Moment had a very high up time but was undependable, I actually like today’s feel better than yesterday’s.

I'm not sure what to say- StM activated a lot more reliably for me. It was a very unlucky fight when it didn't. This new version has faster builders, yeah, but I'm 140 with traits and traceries maxed to reduce Mastery cooldown- and the experience is only marginally better than the previous worst-case scenario when StM failed to activate.

On other things you said I do agree. I miss the boar's rush daze, miss the instant AoE damage of marked/diminished target, etc. As for Power, making it relevant just sounds like adding another road-block to me, so for all I care it can stay irrelevant.

[Kander]

Can't comment about dps atm as I only play blue warden, but from a blue warden of 2008, this is the first time I see gambit execution bit smoother tbh.

Aggro issues seem to be all over and I don't know if it is class specific or general due to the dps boost everyone got. Sometimes not even warning shot gets a target to you.

Survivability wise, I am afraid I m gonna let most of you down by saying that I am almost positive this update didn't make wdn viable for raids t3+ (such as HH). Try tanking Naruhel t3 after update to get a taste of inc dmg and time you have to react and build something.

I only played 3 man but aggro seems to be slightly better now. I just start with resounding challenge + morale taps, deflection and for aoe it's enough. For single target that thing + warning shot is good. I just use war cry for aoe aggro, brink+surety+desolation don't seem to be really effective. And the fact that we need to use DC only when needed for aggro instead of always helps a lot, and the increased healing also help massively with aggro. I haven't tried in raid or 6 man yet but aggro seems better to me.

I see a huge improvement in survivability. Mits are the same, better Inc damage reduction and 3 somewhat effective cooldowns. For the free people's is decent although not life saving, NS is really powerful but I don't like it expires and gives no buff if it doesn't trigger, but the +10% mit is huge for group content. Restorative shield work is okish for ST fights. For aoe fights it feels useless... My feeling is we'll dominate easier content, be somewhat acceptable in T3+ 6 man and raid up to T2, but raids T3+ we'll be the worse option or only offtank. I have to admit that if what I think comes true I guess it's a huge improvement and I'd be happy for it but I'll need to test way more, play with new traits, traceries, etc.

[Tralfazz]

Doesn't Javelin of Deadly Force do this with traits?

Yes it does.

Only targets that are hit by the Javelin, and only once per minute. If multiple targets are lined up behind each then you can get the debuff on those multiple targets, but if they are lined up perpendicular to the direction of travel of the javelin then you'll only get one.

"This skill is non-targeted and affects enemies in a direct line in front of the Warden for 30m."

[LagunaD2]

Only targets that are hit by the Javelin, and only once per minute. If multiple targets are lined up behind each then you can get the debuff on those multiple targets, but if they are lined up perpendicular to the direction of travel of the javelin then you'll only get one.

True enough, although if traited the c/d can be reset.

[Tiboric]

They simply gutted the class. My guess is if you need throw a jav. You now have stance dance.
Thus losing the gambit you where building, and the horn blower got away.
Was my main for yr's. No longer. I guess whom ever didn't understand the class.

[PreemptiveRegret]

They simply gutted the class. My guess is if you need throw a jav. You now have stance dance.
Thus losing the gambit you where building, and the horn blower got away.
Was my main for yr's. No longer. I guess whom ever didn't understand the class.

There's about a dozen reasons why I don't like the new changes, but the lack of baseline javelin skills isn't one of them. Why is this such a problem? For tagging mobs? Just stay in Assailment for a bit longer, ranged gambits are faster to deal with and now mostly work the same as they do in melee stance. You can grab mobs while building Surety or Deso and then AoE them down, those two are still melee in Assailment.

Honestly though SSG really should make our Fist builder have 30M range, there's no reason not to except to introduce inconvenience.

[grizzly375]

I'm a Wardenaholic, running multiple right now, with my highest being level 132. Prior to yesterday, Gundabad was challenging (using #### pickup gear), but playable. The combination of the effective loss of Never Surrender with the apparently WILDLY expanded reach of AOE Fist Skills has left me mobbed and killed so many times I'm down to only using spear skills to avoid pulling the entire map onto me inadvertantly.

The Never Surrender change is toon-breaking. We're a Medium Armor AOE DOT MELEE class, agility based but using a shield (which only gets block rating from Might). We're going to pull a lot, and get hit a lot, without the physical mits from heavy armor. Never Surrender was the safety net that gave us breathing room to handle an inadvertent over-pull. Now it's COMPLETELY worthless - duration is way to short, and trigger is way too low (it's VERY easy to get hit for more than 6% of base morale in non-tanking builds, and NS doesn't account for dropping from 6% to 0 or negative health).

Pre U35, I had a complex but workable rotation that worked for solo play. Now I'm not sure what the heck I'm supposed to be doing, and spending so much time checking my "gambit chain" icon that I'm not paying attention to the fight.

I feel like this rebuild was done with only one role in mind for the Warden - group or raid ranged DPS.

Time to park my former Main toon until someone with an advanced degree figures out how I need to re-gear, re-LI and re-rotate him.

[LagunaD2]

the apparently WILDLY expanded reach of AOE Fist Skills

What are you talking about? The only change was to *reduce* the radius of Brink of Victory...

I assume you're playing red line, in which case you gained four defensive gambits (Shield Mastery, Shield Tactics, Readied Blade and Shield Up) which give powerful long-duration buffs for difficult pulls.

In regard to Never Surrender, all similar defensive cooldowns in other classes require that you anticipate incoming damage. If used correctly, you'll be able to benefit much more often thanks to the reduced cooldown.

[Kander]

The Never Surrender change is toon-breaking. We're a Medium Armor AOE DOT MELEE class, agility based but using a shield (which only gets block rating from Might). We're going to pull a lot, and get hit a lot, without the physical mits from heavy armor. Never Surrender was the safety net that gave us breathing room to handle an inadvertent over-pull. Now it's COMPLETELY worthless - duration is way to short, and trigger is way too low (it's VERY easy to get hit for more than 6% of base morale in non-tanking builds, and NS doesn't account for dropping from 6% to 0 or negative health).

I would argue that current NS is better than using previous one twice given it now gives 10% mits when triggered.

That said: Never Surrender since trait trees was never a game breaking mechanic or anything fundamental to the class survivability. Don't mistake me, it's a decent buff, for a dps warden or questing perspective it adds survivability, but losing it completely wouldn't impact the class in a way that anyone could seriously consider it "toon-breaking", not even remotely close to that.

And... current NS last for 20s (30s with tracery), and in that time if you get lower than 5% you get healed and get mit buff, but you cannot get defeated while it's active, it was fixed long ago, if you're 6% and get a hit of 10% of your morale, you get the heal trigger, so I guess you didn't even try it...

[LagunaD2]

Even when traited to increase threat, Deflection is still showing a blue "decreased threat" indicator over my head.

This was mentioned on Bullroarer and was promised to be fixed.

But my question is: is it just the visual that's wrong, or is it actually reducing threat?

[Kander]

Even when traited to increase threat, Deflection is still showing a blue "decreased threat" indicator over my head.

This was mentioned on Bullroarer and was promised to be fixed.

But my question is: is it just the visual that's wrong, or is it actually reducing threat?

I haven't really tested it properly but I think it does increase it. I only did 2 3 man since update as I couldn't even play long but it seemed to me that it helped me hold aggro. That said I did really not needed as morale tap+RC +heals aggro is really strong in 3man where dps is much less of the raid one or 6man with all buffs available.

[Chrysamere]

Update:

from kin and friends, I heard that other tank classes have aggro issues too - either they didn't adjust at all the threat gen % for tankish classes, or simply the dps is too much in reality (even RK HPS went from 100k to more than 400k)

Again, only commenting on blue warden:

My experience back in the day was that , resounding challenge, war cry and the aoe fist gambits, in combination with our forced aggro skills (single and aoe) , but even more importantly conviction, was our best tool to 100% control aggro. And never had issues.

Now, even conviction won't make targets (that are not being hit by anyone) turn to you. Restoration also as a big self heal should generate threat - it doesn't; gutted but hopefull they will fix aggro.

In the light of the changes to the class, overall I see the class becoming slightly more complicated to play, as more buffs to build and being proactive to cashout AT or when to use For the Free Peoples (for blue again, heard red is easier now) but with marginal gains honestly.

[Khallan]

The Never Surrender change is toon-breaking. We're a Medium Armor AOE DOT MELEE class, agility based but using a shield (which only gets block rating from Might). We're going to pull a lot, and get hit a lot, without the physical mits from heavy armor. Never Surrender was the safety net that gave us breathing room to handle an inadvertent over-pull. Now it's COMPLETELY worthless - duration is way to short, and trigger is way too low (it's VERY easy to get hit for more than 6% of base morale in non-tanking builds, and NS doesn't account for dropping from 6% to 0 or negative health).

Pre U35, I had a complex but workable rotation that worked for solo play. Now I'm not sure what the heck I'm supposed to be doing, and spending so much time checking my "gambit chain" icon that I'm not paying attention to the fight.

I feel like this rebuild was done with only one role in mind for the Warden - group or raid ranged DPS.

Time to park my former Main toon until someone with an advanced degree figures out how I need to re-gear, re-LI and re-rotate him.

Solo warden has improved so much in my opinion, the buffs to morale leeches alone bring me back to the golden days of warden, the shield-spear heals feel very good, and there's alot more defensive abilities in my toolkit now which I love.

I would also say, that paying attention to your chains and AT isn't really all that necessary, there's really only 1 cashout that's worth it in my opinion, and if you're not a blue warden, it won't even matter. For the Free Peoples looks incredible. I haven't been able to try it in a group yet, but the sheer amount of -% incoming damage for 20sec just makes me happy.

This said, warden has always rewarded moderate to high skill play, as well as proper situational usage. NS is more interesting and fits the flavor of the class better than ever now - it's also stronger than in its previous state in my opinion as well. Though admittedly, is not as nice as the set and forget method of the past idk, 7 or 8 years? maybe even longer. The one thing that I wish they did, was have the mit/etc buff trigger even if the effect didn't get consumed. As others have already stated, NS prevents death, and it usually did in the past as well (at some point it became bugged, and it took them a hilariously long time to fix it from what I hear)

Overall, I think blue warden is actually the spec that benefitted the most from this rework, and it's been long overdue. I hope this actually makes warden a desirable main tank again, but I think time will be the judge of that.

Also side note, warden was introduced as primarily a tank class, though things have changed gradually over the years and is mostly not seen as such any longer, although this update may actually move the needle on changing this, depending on how well these changes allow warden to function in high tier raiding.

[Halphast]

Another thing that REALLY annoys me is ranged gambits being reduced from 40m to 30m range. Not only because it's slightly more dangerous to start fights at closer range, but because enemy names appear at 40m. You always used to know when you were in range. Now it's guesswork and fail/scoot/fail/scoot/fail/scoot until you're close enough. What is this, Loremaster? XD

[Swanee]

The changes to NS were unexpected but I understand the intent to bring it more inline with the Last Stand and Dire Need skills. Limited uptime and long cooldown make it very situational, but the 5% health trigger I can only speculate they kept because we have access to NS in all specs. Whereas Cappy’s and Champs only get their skills in 1 spec. Would Wardens be more open to restricting it to blue line with a higher trigger, like say 15% health, or keep it the way it is and let red line use the skill too? While I dislike the change, I do like having available in both red and blue lines.

[Skillzio]

What are you talking about? The only change was to *reduce* the radius of Brink of Victory...

You should look at Resounding Challenge, in Into The Fray.

But anyhow, that shouldn't present a problem like described, if you don't want to pull things 20m away, don't use resounding challenge.

[LagunaD2]

Another thing that REALLY annoys me is ranged gambits being reduced from 40m to 30m range. Not only because it's slightly more dangerous to start fights at closer range, but because enemy names appear at 40m. You always used to know when you were in range. Now it's guesswork and fail/scoot/fail/scoot/fail/scoot until you're close enough. What is this, Loremaster? XD

You can extend the range to 40m with a Yellow trait. And in a dedicated ranged build, even further with a tracery.

[Halphast]

You can extend the range to 40m with a Yellow trait. And in a dedicated ranged build, even further with a tracery.

ARGH!!! That trait is mislabeled! It says "javelin skill" range. Javelin skills are Ambush, hampering javelin, and JoDF. I didn't even consider that it could apply to gambits because "javelin skills" are a very specific set.

Ugh.... and I very carefully spent my points. Time to recalculate.... but thank you.

[Eadondryt]

I only played 3 man but aggro seems to be slightly better now. I just start with resounding challenge + morale taps, deflection and for aoe it's enough. For single target that thing + warning shot is good. I just use war cry for aoe aggro, brink+surety+desolation don't seem to be really effective. And the fact that we need to use DC only when needed for aggro instead of always helps a lot, and the increased healing also help massively with aggro. I haven't tried in raid or 6 man yet but aggro seems better to me.

I see a huge improvement in survivability. Mits are the same, better Inc damage reduction and 3 somewhat effective cooldowns. For the free people's is decent although not life saving, NS is really powerful but I don't like it expires and gives no buff if it doesn't trigger, but the +10% mit is huge for group content. Restorative shield work is okish for ST fights. For aoe fights it feels useless... My feeling is we'll dominate easier content, be somewhat acceptable in T3+ 6 man and raid up to T2, but raids T3+ we'll be the worse option or only offtank. I have to admit that if what I think comes true I guess it's a huge improvement and I'd be happy for it but I'll need to test way more, play with new traits, traceries, etc.

My experience is that wardens in the new patch are at least on par with other main tanks.

Example: https://youtu.be/0HUf1SkIeDc

Disclaimer: I only have gear obtained from T2 raiding (chest, legs, boots). No class essence. No golden cloak.
Group: This is a pre-made kin run, with a kin that has never completed T3 B3.

The healing received is in combat analysis before PIZ whatever his name is comes in to say “But YoU HaS ElITE HeALErS!”
This was first attempt, with an enrage at the end.

Feel free to disagree that wardens are now viable for T3 tanks.

[PreemptiveRegret]

My experience is that wardens in the new patch are at least on par with other main tanks.

Example: https://youtu.be/0HUf1SkIeDc

Disclaimer: I only have gear obtained from T2 raiding (chest, legs, boots). No class essence. No golden cloak.
Group: This is a pre-made kin run, with a kin that has never completed T3 B3.

The healing received is in combat analysis before PIZ whatever his name is comes in to say “But YoU HaS ElITE HeALErS!”
This was first attempt, with an enrage at the end.

Feel free to disagree that wardens are now viable for T3 tanks.

Is that Guard DPSing? It truly is a brave new world.

Blue looks functional rather than good. It's viable, but all that repetitive prebuffing like this video shows...no thanks.