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  1. #1
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    suggestion ( if possible) for New Forums : Prevent AI Art scraping.

    Hi, the AI art bots are a situation that is damaging to artists, to the point that there isn't any safe places to submit or show your art without the worry an art AI bo will steal the image for illegal usage in trainig things like dalle or midJourney etc.
    I don't know if it is possible to prevent these AI bots, but if it is possible I am sure a lot of artists would love a safe place to share work.

  2. #2
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    Embrace the future because this is the future. Silly censorship and trying to weed out advance isn't going to get you anywhere, it never worked in history, not a single time. Without getting into any politics any further... just my two cents.

    Also, it's not illegal, and it has great uses. In fact, SSG - being a smaller studio - should look ahead and perhaps incorporate something like midJourney into their workflow. It's cool to play with in any case, haven't had the time yet but I guess I'll check this out more thoroughly soon and while I'm at it I can take a look whether it can actually do something "lotro themed" Makes me curious now. But something tells me is better to loose less time on trivialities like simple surfaces or basic concept art ideas and then go straight to the actual creative, unique work. In SSG's case it might translate to more assets, art, variety for us to enjoy in the game, for example.

    What I said. It's a tool of the future. A tool to be used. Is not supposed to replace key key art, plus as a human - you have every capability to plagiarize and get inspired by art or game art of others you consume. It's no different with AI algorithm, it doesn't actually copy anything, what it creates is brand new, just inspired.

  3. #3
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    Lol
    "Not all those who wander are lost....some are so stubborn that they always think they're going in the right direction."

    "The 4th age is the store age" - Hetweith

  4. #4
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    what ever garbage you 'assume' is your future, it has killed mine.
    My previous, customers I had as a freelance artist no longer ask me to do things. Instead they post AI things they did with a propt. I cannot safely post my art, as it gets stolen by AI bots.

    This isn't "the future" this is theft, it steals potential work from a human artist. it steals their skill by copying it after it is taken.
    I wont argue this point, I have done that enough.
    but if you have such little compassion for a human and their livelihood to 'vanish' to AI, then go on and continue with your future.
    Mine is pretty much over.

  5. #5
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    and no I am not debating this.
    I am done, If you reply I will not.

  6. #6
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    I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to be rude or anything, to make myself clear - and it's not like I don't feel for you either, if that's the case. Rather, what I was trying to say, is that such advance is inevitable, in the end. I don't believe all humans will just get replaced. Art is a vast thing. There might be things AI may not be able to do nor grasp with a prompt generation - highly specific things. But yes, it might be a turbulent change, especially at this time of big corpo and creative depravation (so people can be satisfied with whatever and sameness), and all such changes were turbulent, unfortunately. If you feel like your life is already destroyed by it and it already damaged your lifestyle, the only thing I can say is adapt - use these tools too, plus in combination with your own artistic skills. Maybe it could help. Not that you need to listen to me or anything. But being practical seems more optimal than just oppose something for "principles" - it's a tool, neither good nor evil, and one that can enrich our creative life too, given good utility, and there are only so many years we humans live.

    No problem.. no need for answer. Just wanted to clarify..

  7. #7
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    Image recombination algorithms are a terrible blow to visual artists. The great bulk of existing visual artists, especially those coming up, will need to seek different careers. A new kind of career, comprised of people with no actual artistic skill who fish for interesting recombination art, will become the norm. Skilled visual artists who attempt to remain in the field and operate the old way will have original ideas stolen so fast, so completely, I doubt they will last very long. Huge production companies who can make films and trademark ideas will survive. Some visual artists will survive there, essentially as slaves to corporate entities with little recognition of their immense talent. They will become like the pyramid builders of Egypt, their efforts forgotten behind the name of some wicked tyrant.

    Stopping this is hopeless. If a human can view an image, an algorithm can, too.

    The whole situation reminds me of a scene in Star Trek II, where Kirk, Spock, and McCoy discuss the Genesis Device. Spock points out that, "It has always been easier to destroy than to create. " McCoy fires back, "Not anymore! Now we can do both at the same time!" "Dear Lord. Do you think we're intelligent enough to..."
    Sophie the Enchantress - Creator, Dreamer, Explorer - Happy yet Sad - Seeker of Beauty and Wonder
    I wish all of you many successful and happy adventures., brave Ladies and Lords of Middle Earth!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by SophieTheEnchantress View Post

    Stopping this is hopeless. If a human can view an image, an algorithm can, too.
    It is only hopeless, when we give up hope. To many people just shrug and let it happen.
    Napster changed the music scene forever, but Napster is gone. In its place is a system that isnt great for musicians, they get paid less, btu they aren't "lost forever".
    AI needs companies to stand up to it, find ways around it, and make their voices heard to our governments. We have copyright laws not being properly enforced because AI is new, and works around a copyright law abusing artists in multiple ways, ( theft of art, and theft of potential income )
    AI Art could have been developed as a toold an artist might use well to their advantage, but instead, it is turned into a tool of greed and just doing things in the most shady and wrong ways.
    Imagine, if you were an artist, and purchased an offline version of an AI program, fed your own work, and style into it, you could use this to help speed up your process, It could have been a 'win' for everyone, instead, the programmers, have chosen greed, insta fame, and theft as the venue of presenting it.
    If AI ( of any nature ) starts to be properly regulated then, artists, could work with it in several ways very well, ( as preveiously mentioned above ) and, also perhaps in a method of DLC by the artist.
    Imagine, you are not an artist but you purchase an AI Art program, you want art in the style of Charles Schulz to make catroons. You order a DLC pack, and now can prompt "Snoopy" like images, however, I believe there should be metatags and watermarks per each art piece saved. (small watermark saying created in AI(program) using Charles M Schulz DLC. )
    This could have been AI Art done "right" an artist could sell their packs themselves, and this in turn could possibly create income for that artist via a customer not fully satisfied with the AI, contacting the artist with a request to clean up or re-create a piece done by the machine.

    Options exist when this is properly regulated, and copyright laws are used, and not abused.
    So, I always see people say "It is here we cannot put it back in Pandora's box" Yes, but the horrors released from th box, need to be fought, not accepted.

    If bills come up to regulate Ai, in your governments, vote to preserve the real artist, and vote, to regulate the AI.
    In the mean time, companies, like SSG and more, can to their part for artists ( if this is possible, ) and look for ways to help block this blight on the artist community.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoppa_Joel View Post
    Imagine, if you were an artist, and purchased an offline version of an AI program, fed your own work, and style into it, you could use this to help speed up your process
    Which doesn't work because in this scenario such AI program is not well developed to begin with - it would be up to you, not only as an artist, but someone who knows all the workings of Ai development, to develop and teach your own algorithm based on your own work (and due to small amount of samples that would be hella difficult if not impossible). But since the work had already been done, in a mass-scale way which is the only way it could have been done, what you're asking for is already possible, in a way - because people have offline versions of these online algorithms and do train their own algorithms/variations too. (Though that still requires some know-how but maybe in the future will be more streamlined) Some will be freely shared, some will be paid for.




    Quote Originally Posted by Hoppa_Joel View Post
    If AI ( of any nature ) starts to be properly regulated then, artists, could work with it in several ways very well, ( as preveiously mentioned above ) and, also perhaps in a method of DLC by the artist.
    Imagine, you are not an artist but you purchase an AI Art program, you want art in the style of Charles Schulz to make catroons. You order a DLC pack, and now can prompt "Snoopy" like images, however, I believe there should be metatags and watermarks per each art piece saved. (small watermark saying created in AI(program) using Charles M Schulz DLC. )
    So you mean like Adobe with a sh*t tone of dlc that only an actual billionaire (rather than your typical small artist) can afford? (If they want to do this a perfect legal way anyway.)

    Which leaves us with the most important thing - all of these things are getting pirated, for these exact reason, because they can be, and because companies want a sh*t tone of money for them - whether Adobe or games - and even though some game companies try to fight it (denuvo and the like) these practices are a bit shady and don't stick. Piracy is kind of a "default" these days and even despite piracy companies/developers still find ways to earn money and there are people willing to pay money for products they like, to have official copies of them. Same goes for music, books etc. It will be turbulent but something similar ought to happen to art now. It'll be more accessible and creating art will be more accessible too. But people will find ways to still sell the official/original copies/highly specific art AI can't do etc.

    Governments aren't going to deal with this, just like you can't just deal with pirated games and movies, because offline versions of these algorithms are already out there, pirated, and they're not going away. And we're much better off if these things are somewhat officially recognized/legal/accessible to all (due to smaller price tag too, like now) rather than this forever back and forth and ending up with Ai products that only big corpo can actually - legally - pay for in their workflow. Which is why I said adapt. That's not some "choosing to look the other way" that's just being realistic with the advance that's happening here. There is no way in the world you can "copyright" any of that in any sane way and some of the copyrights that exist are already quite insane/restrictive/a huge boom to huge companies that abuse them and tend to own/buy everything while paying their human workers less and less. If they get hold of this new technology exclusively through some convoluted copyrights then we're all in the dust

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoppa_Joel View Post
    To many people just shrug and let it happen.
    That is exactly why it will happen and I have no hope. I also have no faith that law makers can intelligently regulate something like this. They are almost universally corrupt and/or stupid. Even if regulations do exist, how can anyone prevent an algorithm from roaming the internet and harvesting anything deemed worth harvesting? How can an independent artist of modest means possibly prove his or her art was stolen and afford the cost of litigation? Why would anyone pay an artist for an original work when an algorithm can produce equivalent results in seconds for a few pennies?

    Some artists will adapt and use new visual art tools to their advantage. Art algorithm fishing is already becoming a new profession. However, we will see a huge drop in overall technical skill, exactly as the industrial revolution demolished artisan manufacturing skill.

    Many artists will move to different mediums and specialties. That will lead to greater artistic innovation in other areas, at least for a time.

    Anyway, I do not see any way the good people at Standing Stone Games can possibly assist with the original suggestion. If you are a visual artist of modest skill, you will need to dramatically improve or find a new gig.
    Sophie the Enchantress - Creator, Dreamer, Explorer - Happy yet Sad - Seeker of Beauty and Wonder
    I wish all of you many successful and happy adventures., brave Ladies and Lords of Middle Earth!

  11. #11
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    I have sympathy for anyone who suddenly finds their livelihood threatened.

    I wouldn't expect to convince them to cheerfully accept it, but history is replete with examples of technology putting certain professions out of business, and creating new ones.

    Electrification, steam and internal combustion engines, computers, etc. Productivity increases are what raise our standard of living (in aggregate) even as they force some to find new ways to support themselves.

    It's the same dynamic that drives low-skill manufacturing jobs overseas and creates higher-tech jobs requiring more training and education in developed countries.

    Attempts to try to impede or reverse these trends with government intervention inevitably fail, and cause greater pain in the long term through stagnation and decreased competitiveness. As in other industries dislocated by technological change, a more realistic approach is to mitigate the short-term effects and provide support for people to re-train and adapt.

    There are only about 2.5-3 million professional artists of all types in the US, and this includes categories like designers, architects, musicians and actors:

    https://www.arts.gov/sites/default/f...al_Workers.pdf

    The number of people whose careers are threatened by generative art AI in the near future looks pretty small in absolute terms (which is not to minimize the impact on those affected, but just to keep the numbers in perspective). It's not hard to imagine that related job gains in the computing industry could eventually outnumber job losses in the visual arts.
    Dagoreth (Warden) and Belechannas (Lore-master) of Arkenstone

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    Fighting the Dorf menace to Middle Earth since 2008

  12. #12
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    Apr 2013
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    the people who defend AI "art" should perhaps learn how to draw themselves, so they can do the images they want instead of stealing an artist's work, passing it through a gazillion ugly filters and then have the gall to present their garbage as "i am the artist". no you're not, you're as garbage as the chimera image you just created. Art requires thought, feeling which belong to humans, not artificial computers, and if this is "the future" then it's an awful one to live in. end of the story.

  13. #13
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    This reminds me of something I saw in the Henry Ford museum: a light bulb machine. Whereas a professional glass-blower could make two bulbs a minute, eventually a glassblower succeeded in making a machine that made 400,000 bulbs in 24 hours; a machine that didn't need sleep or vacations. It was devastating to the people it replaced.

  14. #14
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    Im probably going to step on somebody toes now, but I belive this is the harsh reality some artist are facing.

    Great artist (less than 10% of all those who calls themself artists) will achive sucess and make a decent living of it, despite of the AI. Lets admit it, most artists will not be noticed.
    Those with lesser art skills, will loose to the AI. This means the hours they have spent trying to learn to draw, are wasted and for naught.

    I do see the concern and frustration for those who this will affect, but maybe its time to cut your looses and move on to other ventures instead.
    AI art is comming either you like it or not (that reminded me of a movie reference :-P).

    You either accept it or you waste your time being angry on it.
    You can be a angry as you want, for the rest of your life, but still that will not change the outcome we are moving towards.

  15. Apr 12 2023, 10:16 AM

  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoppa_Joel View Post
    what ever garbage you 'assume' is your future, it has killed mine.
    My previous, customers I had as a freelance artist no longer ask me to do things. Instead they post AI things they did with a propt. I cannot safely post my art, as it gets stolen by AI bots.

    This isn't "the future" this is theft, it steals potential work from a human artist. it steals their skill by copying it after it is taken.
    I wont argue this point, I have done that enough.
    but if you have such little compassion for a human and their livelihood to 'vanish' to AI, then go on and continue with your future.
    Mine is pretty much over.
    Whenever you publish your artwork online, it's open to theft in various different forms. All you can do is take steps to protect it the best that you can. Use private preview sites for you clients etc. That doesn't work well if you sell publicly though, so in that case, make use of good copyrighting and use DMCA when required. That said, sometimes that isn't good enough to prevent theft, depending on the image involved.

    I too, am a digital artist, have been for over a decade. I have one particular image that has been stolen and used over a million times. I used to issue DMCA's when the image was young and first published, but I had to give up chasing it in the end. Sometimes, you just got to stop running after it. I take some solace in knowing that all the various imposters of it out there are poor quality, low res copies, as that is all I ever publish. The high res, printable files are out of reach behind the scenes. Even the low res previews have protection to prevent copying, so when people do take it, its from a screen grab. If they wish to have that on their walls, good luck to them. If they want a high quality print, they have to come through me, and/or my publisher/printer, else they get some cheap variation. Cheap variations are a novelty, but they don't pass the test of time if your work speaks for itself.

    Just use all the tools you currently have at your disposal until something better comes along. Keep an eye out for Glaze cloaking.

    p.s. If you really do want to make a go of art as a business, change sites. RB and Z won't cut it. Keep in mind too, the POD industry is huge, most only manage it as a side line project to generate a bit extra.
    Last edited by Arnenna; Apr 14 2023 at 07:50 PM.
    Sometimes, no matter how hard you look, there is no best light.


 

 

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