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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by SniperCT View Post
    I knew this thread would get derailed from the original purpose of discussing actual issues and bugs with the new options and into a revolving circle of arguing over narrow definitions of what is and is not lore and canon appropriate, with a side dash of people losing their minds over something not worth getting all up in arms about.



    Not an excuse, an explanation.

    As it stands right now, origins are tied to character creation, the only way to change them is to pay for a race change. Unhooking origins from that may or may not be possible, or it may be too much work for too little gain. We don't know. I'd rather they do it this way than not at all, and potentially figure out the origin later. It's such small potatoes it isn't really worth the data to even argue about.

    As long as we can still have the origin titles (my captain is of gondor frequently and I don't want to lose that) I don't really care what they do. I would love 'of khand' for one of mine though.

    Seriously? What you think of as "insignificant" or "not bugged" may not be insignificant to others. To me, it's actually a mental, narrative bug, if it just stays this way. It takes away from the world and it takes away from the immersion of creation panel in a bad taste. I say it again - remove origins entirely then, if adding new is troublesome for whatever reason. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. It's either add all these cool new origins people want or remove origins entirely so nobody feels invalidated by this. Don't add new origins because people won't be able to change but don't remove origins because same people want to keep them is the most flawed reasoning one can make (while at the same time pissing off everyone else and diminishing immersion of character creation process).

    I'll say it once again - consistency is important and devs need to pay more heed to it, players don't get heavily immersed in well-constructed fictional books or game worlds for no reason. But sure, tell me again it's just one of those things they should utterly ignore and put it into "maybe we'll do something about it... in 5 years from now" box, even though it's something so apparently simple to solve and what MANY MANY players are asking for.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by SniperCT View Post
    They aren't going to give us free race changes so we can change our characters' origins, and they are very unlikely to be able to make origin work on the barber. And it would be very unfair to require a store-bought item OR a reroll to access the new settings.

    Therefore, this is the only path forward, and we can, you know, pretend that dale-lander character is actually from much further east. Just don't use the 'of dale' title or something.
    This game can be played both ways. Let's think about the new classes. For example, about the upcoming corsair? I want to play a corsair, but the developers won't give my guard the corsair talent tree so that I can switch to them for silver. I will have to create a new character. This also severely limits the variety, as does the change in the origin of the character. But we do not discuss this, because the creation of a character when introducing new classes is the norm for us.

    I understand that all analogies are false, and I do not want to divert the conversation somewhere to the side. But let's think not about the simplest options for integrating new and potentially interesting features, but about more harmonious and neat ways. It seems to me that a reasonable solution would be to create new origins and provide a free option to change the origin for the characters of those races that have been expanded. As part of the new origins, it is worth emphasizing the introduction of new appearance features to better represent different cultures, not forgetting the neat expansion of customization for existing ones. For example, many players rightly noted the developers' lack of attention to old hairstyles and beards, and some one-sidedness in the styles of the new added customization options.
    Last edited by Rino90; Apr 14 2023 at 08:52 PM.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by TesalionLortus View Post
    Seriously? What you think of as "insignificant" or "not bugged" may not be insignificant to others. To me, it's actually a mental, narrative bug, if it just stays this way. It takes away from the world and it takes away from the immersion of creation panel in a bad taste. I say it again - remove origins entirely then, if adding new is troublesome for whatever reason. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. It's either add all these cool new origins people want or remove origins entirely so nobody feels invalidated by this. Don't add new origins because people won't be able to change but don't remove origins because same people want to keep them is the most flawed reasoning one can make (while at the same time pissing off everyone else and diminishing immersion of character creation process).

    I'll say it once again - consistency is important and devs need to pay more heed to it, players don't get heavily immersed in well-constructed fictional books or game worlds for no reason. But sure, tell me again it's just one of those things they should utterly ignore and put it into "maybe we'll do something about it... in 5 years from now" box, even though it's something so apparently simple to solve and what MANY MANY players are asking for.
    Would I love to add 'of khand' to one of my champions? Hell yes. I'd be all for that, I'm not saying that I don't want the option to alter the origins for my characters, I've actually wanted that for years now.

    I'm just not going to get hung up on it, and I do not believe it is as simple as you do. I believe it's incredibly complex, something tied so deeply to our characters the only way to change it right now is a full on race change. It has TITLES tied to it, it's not just a cosmetic thing! I'd rather they be very careful about messing with that on the off chance it could corrupt our character data if done wrong.

    And then there's the fact I do not want these options taken from Gondor, as an example. Of all the existing origins that's the one most likely to have the greatest variety of people. Dale is a close second.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rino90 View Post
    This game can be played both ways. Let's think about the new classes. For example, about the upcoming corsair? I want to play a corsair, but the developers won't give my guard the corsair talent tree so that I can switch to them for silver. I will have to create a new character. This also severely limits the variety, as does the change in the origin of the character. But we do not discuss this, because the creation of a character when introducing new classes is the norm for us.

    I understand that all analogies are false, and I do not want to divert the conversation somewhere to the side. But let's think not about the simplest options for integrating new and potentially interesting features, but about more harmonious and neat ways. It seems to me that a reasonable solution would be to create new origins and provide a free option to change the origin for the characters of those races that have been expanded. As part of the new origins, it is worth emphasizing the introduction of new appearance features to better represent different cultures, not forgetting the neat expansion of customization for existing origins. For example, many players rightly noted the developers' lack of attention to old hairstyles and beards, and some one-sidedness in the styles of the new added customization options.
    That class argument is a hilarious straw man, good work!

    Simple. Yeah, somehow I doubt its that simple, and you forget the fact that places like Gondor were in fact very diverse.

    And yes, they desperately need to improve the older hair styles and options, no disagreement there. But I can understand why they are reluctant - anything that changes how a character looks against the player's will is...bad. So they have to be very very careful how they handle it.

    Much easier to make some new stuff without preconceived notions.

  5. #55
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    In my opinion, allowing character origins from the distant regions under Sauron's domination is wrong.

    For one, it's doubtful the people there would understand Western speech, or have the opportunity to learn it.

    For another, such characters don't fit into the story, which begins in Eriador.

    Third, such characters would be viewed with suspicion far exceeding any of the existing origins.

    The one thing we know about people from those regions is that they were hostile and aggressive toward the people of the West at all times.

    If you allow Haradrim and Easterling player characters, why not orcs and goblins? Why not undead and unseen?

    I think people should accept Tolkien's vision, Manichean as it was, rather than insisting on distorting it to suit their own whims. There are plenty of more generic fantasy games that easily accommodate the "anything and everything" approach.
    Dagoreth (Warden) and Belechannas (Lore-master) of Arkenstone

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  6. #56
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    Or perhaps they're following the general trend of things.

    I think I just realized where some of the braid/dread options came from lmao

  7. #57
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    It's ok to have character origins from the distant regions under Sauron's domination (since we don't have Sauron in our timeline right now), BUT better way to do it will be something like that: Introduce new regions, introduce new NPC and quests. Make us emotionaly invest with dealing with people from Harad/Run/Umbar/Nurn, and after reading our feedback give us more options.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elmagor View Post
    It's ok to have character origins from the distant regions under Sauron's domination (since we don't have Sauron in our timeline right now)
    A Level 1 - 105 character has Sauron "in their timeline".

    It's true that allowing Haradrim/Easterlings to start after Sauron's defeat would address some of the otherwise glaring story discontinuity, especially if they started in their home areas.
    Dagoreth (Warden) and Belechannas (Lore-master) of Arkenstone

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  9. Apr 14 2023, 09:52 PM

  10. #59
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    I want the sliders on elves so badly. I want all the things on elves (making my noldor actually brown instead of this barely there tan would be nice), but mainly the sliders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmagor View Post
    It's ok to have character origins from the distant regions under Sauron's domination (since we don't have Sauron in our timeline right now), BUT better way to do it will be something like that: Introduce new regions, introduce new NPC and quests. Make us emotionaly invest with dealing with people from Harad/Run/Umbar/Nurn, and after reading our feedback give us more options.
    We're going to Umbar next, so we'll get some of that. But better to get the options in game sooner rather than later. And also not tie them into a paid experience.

    But we do make friends with a Corsair in the gondor storylines so that's already something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarbel View Post
    And if the general trend of things is bad?
    But they're not bad, they're not bad at all. They're actually amazing and fantastic!

  11. Apr 14 2023, 09:54 PM

  12. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by SniperCT View Post
    That class argument is a hilarious straw man, good work!
    If you didn’t notice in the quoted post, I specified that this statement is not an argument that proves anything, but carries a slightly different message, which I think is quite understandable to users. Moreover, I was not going to argue with you, but only expressed my opinion on the upcoming changes. After all, this is not a problem in an adequate society, right?

    Simple. Yeah, somehow I doubt its that simple, and you forget the fact that places like Gondor were in fact very diverse.
    And I did not forget this fact, where did you get this from? Especially considering that on current servers, the people of Gondor and Dale have a wider palette of skin colors when creating a character. I think you are accidentally attributing your own speculations to me.

    As for the proposed option, it is precisely that it is very simple. Instead of creating a series of unique sets of looks, we have one pull of parts that don't go well together. And they do not fit well precisely because they are thrown into one heap, in which, for example, old beards fail in the model of new faces. Correcting these errors (if corrections are made, of course) will also require a lot of work, so wouldn't it be better to approach this issue more professionally from the beginning? The question is rhetorical.

    Much easier to make some new stuff without preconceived notions.
    I see that you are concerned about simple solutions, but let me in my posts pay attention not to how easier it is, but to how carefully and accurately it is worth approaching the development of a project loved by many people, naturally purely in my opinion and without claiming to be true. Good luck, thanks for the chat.

  13. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by SniperCT View Post
    We're going to Umbar next, so we'll get some of that. But better to get the options in game sooner rather than later. And also not tie them into a paid experience.

    But we do make friends with a Corsair in the gondor storylines so that's already something.
    We deal with different creatures, from ghost (Faramir) and goblin (Viznak), how that can be enough for adding their skins in character creation screen?

  14. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by SniperCT View Post
    Or perhaps they're following the general trend of things.
    I just can't get over what they did to Aragorn. I mean, seriously, couldn't they make an original character? That dude looks NOTHING like Aragorn.
    "Grandchildren are God's reward for not killing your children when you wanted to."

  15. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidmeetHal View Post
    I just can't get over what they did to Aragorn. I mean, seriously, couldn't they make an original character? That dude looks NOTHING like Aragorn.
    And to add insult to injury, it's by Magali Villeneuve, whose work I have always adored...
    Dagoreth (Warden) and Belechannas (Lore-master) of Arkenstone

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  16. #64
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    Some of the new customizations are fine. Body slider needs tweaking or separation into different sliders for muscle, thickness, etc. Some of the eye colors are a bit odd/ bright and I personally would have preferred the different origins to have kept their slight differences (cosmetically). New hairstyle options are good, would like to see more added (braids, wavy, etc like someone else asked for). The facial hair being an option for female human characters is a bad joke. This was supposed to be Arda, last I checked. Remove that nonsense and add more facial hair options for female dwarves.
    Nanci - 115 Captain / Hirandiel - 115 Hunter / Hildimar - 115 Minstrel - "Weekend at Bill Ferny's" - Arkenstone (formerly of Windfola)
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  17. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by SophieTheEnchantress View Post
    The Standing Stone Games version of Middle Earth was a pretty good one. Over the years, some updates were very problematic, but nothing ever bothered me so much that I could not squint and ignore the worst of it. There is nothing to discuss. This update is a nuclear weapon I cannot ignore.
    My previous post was deleted, simply for agreeing with this comment. Tragic state of affairs.
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  18. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hirandiel View Post
    The facial hair being an option for female human characters is a bad joke. This was supposed to be Arda, last I checked. Remove that nonsense and add more facial hair options for female dwarves.
    Exactly this.
    "Grandchildren are God's reward for not killing your children when you wanted to."

  19. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by SniperCT View Post
    anything that changes how a character looks against the player's will is...bad. So they have to be very very careful how they handle it.
    No, they don't have to and they aren't. They're disabling that old checkbox to make old old looks possible. Nothing different if they took away some origin labels or added new, which requires new characters. Unless they're catering to some highly specific group for players who have the audacity to want to keep their old thing but also to deny everyone a new thing because they don't wanna miss out on the new thing and be forced to create new character to use it (which essentially concerns everyone, btw, not just you, so it's fair play if that happened and it's not like everyone has some giant problem with that, even if, ideally, an option to change would have been nice).



    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD2 View Post
    In my opinion, allowing character origins from the distant regions under Sauron's domination is wrong.

    For one, it's doubtful the people there would understand Western speech, or have the opportunity to learn it.

    For another, such characters don't fit into the story, which begins in Eriador.

    Third, such characters would be viewed with suspicion far exceeding any of the existing origins.

    The one thing we know about people from those regions is that they were hostile and aggressive toward the people of the West at all times.

    If you allow Haradrim and Easterling player characters, why not orcs and goblins? Why not undead and unseen?

    I think people should accept Tolkien's vision, Manichean as it was, rather than insisting on distorting it to suit their own whims. There are plenty of more generic fantasy games that easily accommodate the "anything and everything" approach.
    Are we back to this now? Come on. It's utterly void already. Period.

    That was true with old limitations at play, yeah, and made me against anything playable called a "Corsair", for example. But it's void, none of this matters anymore. If you want that kind of Tolkien vision and some basic common sense (as in.. Bree aren't supposed to be a New York) then all of these new skins would have to be tied to their appropriate Middle-earth origins, narratively. Otherwise your Far Haradrim or Chinese man is going to terribly stick out narratively and in this case it's even worse if you can't choose their origins as from a distant place, because it implies they've always lived there, as regular citizens (rather than strange travelers that keep to themselves) and that of course doesn't fit (and doesn't even fit what's shown there on landscape too) and is your very pinnacle of "anything and everything." You don't change that by being against a Harad origins, in fact you make it worse for all of us who might want to decently cosplay and immerse themselves in Middle-earth. What's done is done, "power to the people" and let people imagine whatever the heck they want with their dark skinned avatars if they want to, but at least some of us want options to still have some decent, logical fun in the game. (Unless the devs sprinkle all the towns of Middle-earth "in color" on landscape now too, and it stops being a gamey avatar thing, then there is nothing left to do but quit with a heavy agonizing heart)

  20. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rino90 View Post
    I see that you are concerned about simple solutions, but let me in my posts pay attention not to how easier it is, but to how carefully and accurately it is worth approaching the development of a project loved by many people, naturally purely in my opinion and without claiming to be true. Good luck, thanks for the chat.
    Exactly. This game is NOT a mod and these devs are NOT modders, neither it is early access on steam, and I can't stress this enough. I have every passion for this game and understanding for the difficulties involved in the old engine, but at the end of the day they're supposed to offer a finished, carefully weighted product that makes sense, from graphics, visuals to UI, text boxes and narrative. Not pick X and then say "whatever" to all the rest, like they're some modders delivering us a version 0.67 of a mod, maybe the polished text boxes will be there for version 1.1 or maybe not because something else seems cooler and important right now, but hey, you should be excited because we're giving you this brand new thing in a new version of our mod just ignore some of these weird, outdated, untouched things for now. That's NOT how it should be done here. And I can't believe that there are actually people who act like we're just in a modding community circle where things don't need to stick upon release (maybe they'll someday, maybe they won't) and still shocks me that the devs themselves had demonstrated such an approach too, on occasion, in their way of thinking, in recent times. (Things like balance, stats and such don't have to - contrary to what people always scream here about - because in mmo these are things that you typically adjust on daily/weekly basis. But all of these other things definitely should make some sense upon release)

    (Granted, it's still not live and early preview, but given that the devs demonstrated that line of thinking before, well... that's why it's not reassuring, and they seriously need to stop doing that and act like they're developing a mod or early access steam game)

  21. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by TesalionLortus View Post
    (Granted, it's still not live and early preview, but given that the devs demonstrated that line of thinking before, well... that's why it's not reassuring, and they seriously need to stop doing that and act like they're developing a mod or early access steam game)
    Because this update may be on live servers in the middle of next week?

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    you are all taking a videogame way too seriously. also Cord is gonna delete half of these posts coming Monday

  23. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elmagor View Post
    Because this update may be on live servers in the middle of next week?
    Yeah, true. I wasn't exactly sure when it's supposed to debut but you might be right. Hopefully they may still reconsider :P At the very least give us more options that we want in near future because the package they delivered was incredibly one-sided



    Quote Originally Posted by elvenes View Post
    you are all taking a videogame way too seriously. also Cord is gonna delete half of these posts coming Monday


    Funny that the devs took it seriously for 15+ years. Or that MoL is very utterly serious when writing all these stories or making extra things like BtS Afterwords

  24. #72
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    if your lenghty posts about landscape are anything to go by, your serious is well above and beyond any dev serious. But I did not aim my post to you specifically, but generally. They need to follow the guidelines from their licenser, and apparently in the upper levels they are fine with these changes. Again, it is a friggin videogame, the sky is not falling.

    well.... the sky might fall, but not for avatar changes, but for the lag and poor servers that keep on getting worse day after day

  25. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by elvenes View Post
    if your lenghty posts about landscape are anything to go by, your serious is well above and beyond any dev serious. But I did not aim my post to you specifically, but generally. They need to follow the guidelines from their licenser, and apparently in the upper levels they are fine with these changes. Again, it is a friggin videogame, the sky is not falling.
    Well, I'm sorry I'm actually passionate about the game and think immersion is important and are concerned about this, but maybe if you say so then passionate isn't welcomed nor desired, just neutral compliance, idk. While the lag may be a problem, and while I'm not against more options either, lousy/incomplete ways of doing some things are certainly not going to translate to strong appeal years in the future and note that the game, under normal circumstances, wouldn't probably be here anymore, is here for a reason and its own uniqueness on the market. (Not that it needs to be hardcore hardcore, never supported that idea of purity, that there can never be any of those "wave it away" "gamey" things, but there is certain order to things required, otherwise you just end up doing away with the appeal completely and everything just turns into shallow "just wave it away")

  26. #74
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    As in life, we take everyone and everything as serious as he/she/it wants us to think of it. When the Devs religiously stick to the lore, when they get in touch with Michael Drout in order to help with the Anglo-Saxon themes, when their Lore-Master deep-dives the source material (even the ones they don't have the rights to), when their Lead Writer takes his job very seriously, when they create their own languages (Dunlendish) well I guess that this videogame wants us to treat it seriously. Apart from that, I'm not fond of arguments like "It's a game" or "It's fantasy", as every fictional story has its own rules and laws.

    Now, as I said in the main thread, I do welcome most of the avatar changes with open arms, though I firmly believe that the list of Origins should be expanded, as the current four aren't sufficient in order to accommodate those changes. As the world of LotRO is growing, these little things should be taken into consideration. The various restrictions depending on the origins had their purpose and were justified by the lore, thus an expansion of the Origins is needed in my opinion. The world of Tolkien is rich and diverse and can easily be portrayed well in a medium like LotRO. As it stands right now though, I consider these changes to be "half-done", as it doesn't make sense thematically a Man of Bree, a Gondorian and a Rohirrim not potentially being distinguished from each other.

    Now, regarding the female beards. I'm not a big fan of them. Even if we don't take into account that it somewhat diminishes the importance of the female Dwarves (for Tolkien to mention it, there should be a reason), there aren't many examples of bearded women in the Middle-Ages. There is a bearded woman in Topographia Hibernica and Wilgefortis, a Portuguese Saint that in order to thwart an unwanted marriage prayed that she becomes repulsive, and God responded to her prayers by making her sprout a beard. There is also the iconography of Bearded Mary, which stemmed from the early medieval notion that chaste women would become men.

    I'm fully aware that the Devs mean well, there's no doubt here, though their execution needs some more thought and care, in my humble opinion.

  27. #75
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    Add more origins, do not destroy the current ones. Men of Bree have fair skin and certain hair, eye colours. Leave it as it is. Do not destroy the world you have been so carefully creating for years.

 

 
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