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  1. #26
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    Im glad I now have the option to roam middle earth with my bearded brethren. Thank you SSG for this amazing change I am happy to be included in your online adventure

    Dwarrowdelf: R12 Warden Jak\ R8 Minstrell Amoxx\ R10 Runekeeper Smellslike\ R9 reaver Martiall\ R10 Defiler Tussin-1
    Crickhollow: R12 Defiler Tussinn\ R10 Reaver Martiall\ R10 Warg Superiorskill

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanguardIV View Post
    That's alot of copium if ever I saw one.
    and women having beards isn't?

    Have you ever seen a woman?


    One thing for sure - it is the time when real world politics arrive to world chat in LOTRO. Welcome to yet another toxic MMORPG community.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanguardIV View Post
    And by "many against", do you mean the vocal minority who just keep spamming the forums repeatedly?
    And everyone else who was silenced, who was silenced on reddit and potentially banned too, and all of these people who aren't vocal to begin with but may rightfully feel doubtful about some of the choices and less enthusiastic about the game/its world as a result. Because any vocal population (all of these places combined) is just... the minority of overall population, most likely. You know, in a game with 140 levels, plenty of players who take their time and haven't even reached the cap yet (it's not wow). I know at least one person who doesn't raise their voice online, and they don't consider this update some massive success with all of these doubtful things/missteps and feel less enthusiastic about finishing latest content, might put that on hold and play something else. Who is to say how many of such people are out there? (and sounds like such players could be good for SSG to keep since they're usually also the ones who don't mind and don't vocally complain about lag every week but as Cord recently admitted they'll never fix lag completely ;p)
    Last edited by TesalionLortus; Apr 22 2023 at 06:44 AM.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TesalionLortus View Post
    And everyone else who was silenced, who was silenced on reddit and potentially banned too, and all of these people who aren't vocal to begin with but may rightfully feel doubtful about some of the choices and less enthusiastic about the game/its world as a result. Because any vocal population (all of these places combined) is just... the minority of overall population, most likely. You know, in a game with 140 levels, plenty of players who take their time and haven't even reached the cap yet (it's not wow). I know at least one person who doesn't raise their voice online, and they don't consider this update some massive success with all of these doubtful things/missteps and feel less enthusiastic about finishing latest content, might put that on hold and play something else. Who is to say how many of such people are out there? (and sounds like such players could be good for SSG to keep since they're usually also the ones who don't mind and don't vocally complain about lag every week but as Cord recently admitted they'll never fix lag completely ;p)
    I play other MMOs (Age of Conan for 8 years and Archage for 3 years) and they NEVER change anything in how my characters looking in game. Never understand how actions like that can bring more people in game

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakreal View Post


    Im glad I now have the option to roam middle earth with my bearded brethren. Thank you SSG for this amazing change I am happy to be included in your online adventure


    Wow, that is never going to bring in new players to this game. I hope SSG looks at this and sees just how ridiculous this is in LOTRO. This looks like they put Tolkien and the lore of LOTR in a rocket and sent it to the sun. If it isn't removed or at least an option to turn it off isn't made then I want a beer gut, sunglasses, and really tight junk showing speedos for my male characters. Man, I think this might finally be enough for me to cancel my sub after 13 years.

    Posted in another thread :

    Quote Originally Posted by Scenario View Post
    I would not put high hopes on flying mounts in LOTRO for a variety of different reasons (lore and implementation are two of the largest challenges - plus the entirety of the game not being built to support them). There are other modes of transportation that would be more viable and more topical to things we are working on, should we decide to introduce new modes of travel.
    See how he quotes lore in this post. Where was that opinion when this idea was put out there ?????


  6. #31
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    Tolkien and Christopher on Beards. And secondly on appearances… by peoples and tribes…

    When I come to think of it, in my own imagination, beards were not found among Hobbits (as stated in text); nor among the Eldar (not stated). All male Dwarves had them. The wizards had them, though Radagast (not stated) had only short, curling, light brown hair on his chin. Men normally had them when full-grown, hence Eomer, Theoden and all others named. But not Denethor, Boromir, Faramir, Aragorn, Isildur, or other Numenorean chieftans."

    I will not hide from you, Master Peregrin,’ said Beregond, ‘that to us you look almost as one of our children, a lad of nine summers or so; and yet you have endured perils and seen marvels that few of our greybeards could boast of. I thought it was the whim of our Lord to take him a noble page, after the manner of the kings of old, they say. But I see that it is not so, and you must pardon my foolishness.’”

    Suddenly, caught by the level beams, Frodo saw the old king’s head: it was lying rolled away by the roadside. ‘Look, Sam!’ he cried, startled into speech. ‘Look! The king has got a crown again!’ The eyes were hollow and the carven beard was broken, but about the high stern forehead there was a coronal of silver and gold. A trailing plant with flowers like small white stars had bound itself across the brows as if in reverence for the fallen king, and in the crevices of his stony hair yellow stonecrop gleamed.”

    Gandalf was shorter in stature than the other two; but his long white hair, his sweeping silver beard, and his broad shoulders, made him look like some wise king of ancient legend. In his aged face under great snowy brows his dark eyes were set like coals that could leap suddenly into fire.’

    In a note written in December 1972 or later, and among the last writings of my father’s on the subject of Middle-earth, there is a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being observable in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it was a characteristic of all Elves to be beardless); and it is here noted in connection with the princely house of Dol Amroth that ‘this line had a special Elvish strain, according to its own legends’ (with a reference to the speeches between Legolas and Imrahil in The Return of the King V 9, cited above).”

    Forlong has come,’ Bergil answered; ‘old Forlong the Fat, the Lord of Lossarnach. That is where my grandsire lives. Hurrah! Here he is. Good old Forlong!’ Leading the line there came walking a big thick-limbed horse, and on it sat a man of wide shoulders and huge girth, but old and grey-bearded, yet mail-clad and black-helmed and bearing a long heavy spear. Behind him marched proudly a dusty line of men, well-armed and bearing great battle-axes; grim-faced they were, and shorter and somewhat swarthier than any men that Pippin had yet seen in Gondor.”

    Beren slipped aside from that blow and catching at his beard his hand found the carcanet of gold, and therewith he swung Naugladur suddenly off his feet upon his face: and Naugladur’s sword was shaken from his grasp, but Beren seized it and slew him therewith, for he said: ‘I will not sully my bright blade with thy dark blood, since there is no need.’ But the body of Naugladur was cast into the Aros.”

    Húrin took his freedom, and went forth in grief, embittered by the words of the Dark Lord; and a year was now gone since the death of Túrin his son. For twenty-eight years he had been captive in Angband, and he was grown grim to look upon. His hair and beard were white and long, but he walked unbowed, bearing a great black staff; and he was girt with a sword.”

    In the days of the Dark Kings, when a man could still walk dry-shod from the Rising of the Sun to the Sea of its setting, there lived in the fenced town of his people in the green hills of Agar an old man, by name Hazad Longbeard. 1 Two prides he had: in the number of his sons (seventeen in all), and in the length of his beard (five feet without stretching); but his joy in his beard was the greater. For it remained with him, and was soft, and ruly to his hand, whereas his sons for the most part were gone from him, and those that remained, or came ever nigh, were neither gentle nor ruly.”

    For indeed Tal-elmar laboured hard and at menial tasks, being but the youngest son of an old man, who had little wealth left save his beard and a repute for wisdom. But strange to say (in that town) he served his father willingly, and loved him, more than all his brothers in one, and more than was the wont of any sons in that land. Indeed it was most often on his father's behalf that the flint-flash was seen in his eyes.”

    Hobbits have no beards. There is little or no magic about them, except the ordinary everyday sort which helps them to disappear quietly and quickly when large stupid folk like you and me come blundering along, making a noise like elephants which they can hear a mile off.

    Before the crossing of the mountains the Hobbits had already become divided into three somewhat different breeds: Harfoots, Stoors, and Fallohides. The Harfoots were browner of skin, smaller, and shorter, and they were beardless and bootless; their hands and feet were neat and nimble; and they preferred highlands and hillsides.”

    Returning briefly to the manuscript P 5, I have not yet mentioned that in this text, as originally written, the old passage in P 1 concerning the Hobbits of the Marish (‘ the hobbit-breed was not quite pure’, ‘no pure-bred hobbit had a beard’, VI. 312), still preserved in the revision of P 2, was now altered: The Hobbits of that quarter, the Eastfarthing, were rather large and heavy-legged; and they wore dwarf-boots in muddy weather. But they were Stoors in the most of their blood, as was shown by the down that some grew on their chins. However, the matter of these breeds and the Shire-lore about them we must leave aside for the moment.”

    The Stoors were broader, heavier in build, and had less hair on their feet and more on their chins, and preferred flat lands and riversides. [Added: Their feet and hands were large.] The Harfoots were browner of skin, smaller and shorter, and they were beardless and bootless; they preferred highlands and hillsides. [Added: Their hands and feet were neat and nimble.] The Fallohides were fairer of skin and often of hair, and were taller than the others; they were lovers of trees and woodlands. [Added: All Hobbits were ‘good shots' with stone, sling or bow, but the Fallohides were the surest on the mark.]”

    The habit of building farmhouses and barns was said to have begun among the inhabitants of the Marish down by the Brandywine. The Hobbits of that quarter, the Eastfarthing, were rather large and heavy-legged, and they wore dwarf-boots in muddy weather. But they were well known to be Stoors in a large part of their blood, as indeed was shown by the down that many grew on their chins. No Harfoot or Fallohide had any trace of a beard. Indeed, the folk of the Marish, and of Buckland, east of the River, which they afterwards occupied, came for the most part later into the Shire up from south-away; and they still had many peculiar names and strange words not found elsewhere in the Shire.”

    “As they came to the gates Círdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and he was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said: ‘All is now ready.’”

    The following etymological note pertains to the name Russandol in the discussion of the name Maitimo in the numbered list of the names of the seven sons of Feanor (XII:352-53). A marginal note against that discussion provides the detail that Nerdanel “herself had brown hair and a ruddy complexion”. A note elsewhere in the papers associated with this essay reads: “Elves did not have beards until they entered their third cycle of life. Nerdanel’s father [cf. XII:365-66 n.61] was exceptional, being only early in his second.” – Vinyar Tengwar 41, July 2000, p.9.

    A note was sent to Patricia Finney (Dec. 9/72), answering a question about beards, that mentioned some of the male characters which she and a friend did not imagine as having beards. I replied that I myself imagined Aragorn, Denethor, Imrahil, Boromir, Faramir as beardless. This, I said, I supposed not to be due to any custom of shaving, but a racial characteristic. None of the Eldar had any beards, and this was a general racial characteristic of all Elves in my “world”. Any element of an Elvish strain in human ancestry was very dominant and lasting (receding only slowly — as might be seen in Númenóreans of royal descent, in the matter of longevity also). The tribes of Men from whom the Númenóreans were descended were normal, and hence the majority of them would have beards. But the royal house was half-elven, having two strains of Elvish race in their ancestry through Lüthien of Doriath (royal Sindarin) and Idril of Gondolin (royal Noldorin). The effects were long-lasting: e.g. in a tendency to a stature a little above the average, to a greater (though steadily decreasing) longevity, and probably most lastingly in beardlessness. Thus none of the Númenórean chieftains of descent from Elros (whether kings or not) would be bearded. It is stated that Elendil was descended from Silmarién, a royal princess. Hence Aragorn and all his ancestors were beardless.

    Théoden, who (1) has a white beard in The King of the Golden Hall, and (2) as per Unfinished Tales, has a mother descended from the line of Dol Amroth… and hence has Elven blood in his veins. If Aragorn’s heritage alone makes him beardless then Théoden (and Éomer) should be beardless too.

    This is followed by the information attributed to Gimli concerning the Dwarf-women, which was preserved in Appendix A (RK p. 360). There is no difference in substance in the present text, except for the statements that they are never forced to wed against their will (which ‘would of course be impossible’), and that they have beards. This latter is said also in the 1951”

    And now the Entwives are only a memory for us, and our beards are long and grey.
    Last edited by Baggins; Apr 22 2023 at 07:43 PM.

  7. #32
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    Discussion of many of Tolkiens discussions of appearances by geographical regions and people.
    The few exceptions for certain characters where skin is even brought up that I know of, include passages for characters such as Maeglin (Of Maeglin in Silmarillion) and Arwen (in Lord of the Rings), and maybe a few others (and not much beyond that)... And largely that Tolkien seemed to equate his personal sense of beauty with 'paleness' based on his wife Edith (Luthian) (as I believe we also see a reference beauty and white skin with Goldberry as well), among other places. Of course it should be noted most of the references if any do exist, are not technically usuable by LOTRO, due to them only having rights mainly to LOTR (and maybe The Hobbit), but not much else beyond that (although they have kinda got around that by renaming certain ideas like with the houses of the Dwarves).


    In the middle of the table, against the woven cloths upon the wall, there was a chair under a canopy, and there sat a lady fair to look upon, and so like was she in form of womanhood to Elrond that Frodo guessed that she was one of his close kindred. Young she was and yet not so. The braids of her dark hair were touched by no frost; her white arms and clear face were flawless and smooth, and the light of stars was in her bright eyes, grey as a cloudless night; yet queenly she looked, and thought and knowledge were in her glance, as of one who has known many things that the years bring. Above her brow her head was covered with a cap of silver lace netted with small gems, glittering white; but her soft grey raiment had no ornament save a girdle of leaves wrought in silver.

    J.R.R. Tolkien. The Lord of the Rings (p.226-227). Harper Collins, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

    She lifted up her white arms, and spread out her hands towards the East in a gesture of rejection and denial. Eärendil, the Evening Star, most beloved of the Elves, shone clear above. So bright was it that the figure of the Elven-lady cast a dim shadow on the ground. Its rays glanced upon a ring about her finger; it glittered like polished gold overlaid with silver light, and a white stone in it twinkled as if the Even-star had come down to rest upon her hand. Frodo gazed at the ring with awe; for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood.

    J.R.R. Tolkien. The Lord of the Rings (p. 365). Harper Collins, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

    As Maeglin grew to full stature he resembled in face and form rather his kindred of the Noldor, but in mood and mind he was the son of his father. His words were few save in matters that touched him near, and then his voice had a power to move those that heard him and to overthrow those that withstood him. He was tall and black-haired; his eyes were dark, yet bright and keen as the eyes of the Noldor, and his skin was white. Often he went with Eöl to the cities of the Dwarves in the east of Ered Lindon, and there he learned eagerly what they would teach, and above all the craft of finding the ores of metals in the mountains.

    Tolkien, J. R. R.. The Silmarillion (pp. 155-156). Harper Collins, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
    Some fans have interpreted Maeglin and Eol and other 'dark elves' as being darker in complexion than other elves that hadn't seen the Light of the Two Trees. But there is no indication anywhere that being exposed to the 'light' of the two trees changes skin tones. The idea that Maeglin is 'dark-skinned' goes against the text itself which does state his skin is white.

    Perhaps there is even support in an earlier writings Book of Lost Tales that he was dark skinned at one point... but that was changed later in later works... In the earlier outdated work he is described as being 'less fair' and compared to being 'swart', and compared to being part-orc (though certainly no evidence of this)... However, 'swart' doesn't necesarily mean 'black' or even 'dark brown' but can also mean 'ruddy' or 'tanned' compared to others... But many do interpret to mean 'dark skin'.

    Now the sign of Meglin was a sable Mole, and he was great among quarrymen and a chief of the delvers after ore; and many of these belonged to his house. Less fair was he than most of this goodly folk, swart and of none too kindly mood, so that he won small love, and whispers there were that he had Orc’s blood in his veins, but I know not how this could be true.

    Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Book of Lost Tales, Part Two: Part Two (History of Middle-Earth 2) . Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.
    But it does suggest compared to others of his people who were appeared more 'fair' (did Tolkien mean 'pale' when he says fair? Maybe if that is his personal idea of beauty). But it does seem to contrast 'fair' with 'swart'. Although I'm sure there are some that might interpret it to mean "he was less beautiful' than most elves (does 'swartness' and demeanor being part of that why he was 'less beautiful'?).

    But then again it seems he may have been retconned to 'white' in later written works... which would make the two descriptions in conflict... Or they could both be right, in that he's still 'white' but darker in complexion than others of his people.


    Another reference to potential skin color is that Ar-Feinel is described as being 'pale'. But the fact she's called White Lady could mean that she was a special case for the Noldor. If all other Noldor was 'white' then why call her White Lady?


    Ar-Feiniel she was called, the White Lady of the Noldor, for she was pale, though her hair was dark, and she was never arrayed but in silver and white.

    Tolkien, J. R. R.. The Silmarillion (p. 61). Harper Collins, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
    Of course she could have been literally "white" (like say alabaster or an albino) rather than say pink, ruddy, or tan, or some off-white color. But there isn't enough context to know for sure what was meant, or what "all noldor look like" in relation to her, that makes her special.

    In War of the Jewels is this note relating her 'whiteness' to her hair, and not necessarily her skin (although all around 'White" might be connected to both), in which originally the explanation of her title was 'snow-locks'.


    Aredhel Ar-Feiniel, the White Lady of the Noldor...
    Here, and throughout B(i), Isfin was changed to Arehel; and in the
    margin against the first occurrence my father wrote:
    This name is derived from the oldest (1916) version of FG. It is now
    quite unacceptable in form, unsuitable to the position and character
    of Turgon's sister, and also meaningless.
    Presumably he meant that since no etymology of Isfin was feasible it
    was on that account unsuitable to be the name of Turgon's sister (cf.
    II.344, where the original explanation of the name as 'snow-locks'
    or 'exceeding-cunning' is given, and the present note is referred to).
    Also written in the margin is '? Rodwen = High Virgin Noble' and
    'Rodwen Los in Golodh..' (last letters illegible; the word 'Virgin' is
    also not perfectly clear).

    At the top of the first page of the carbon B(ii) the notes on the name
    are different. Here my father wrote: 'Name Isfin must be changed
    throughout to Feiniel (= White Lady)'.
    In Morgoth's Ring is another comment about the White Lady, which may indicate some changes such as not agreeing on what hair color she was to have, but in this case indicates her skin appeared to be pale and 'clear of hue'? Whatever that means....


    She was called
    the White Lady of the Noldor; for though her hair was dark, she
    was pale and clear of hue, and she was ever arrayed in silver
    and white.
    However, she is described as white-limbed in Lays of Beleriend:


    Lo, that prince of Gondobar [Meglin]
    dark Eol's son whom Isfin, in a mountain dale afar
    in the gloom of Doriath's forest, the white-limbed maiden bare,
    the daughter of Fingolfin, Gelmir's mighty heir.
    'Twas the bent blades of the Glamhoth that drank Fingolfin's life
    as he stood alone by Feanor; but his maiden and his wife
    were wildered as they sought him in the forests of the night,
    in the pathless woods of Doriath, so dark that as a light
    of palely mirrored moonsheen were their slender elfin limbs
    straying among the black holes where only the dim bat skims
    from Thu's dark-delved caverns. There Eol saw that sheen
    and he caught the white-limbed Isfin, that she ever since hath been
    his mate in Doriath's forest, where she weepeth in the gloam;
    for the Dark Elves were his kindred that wander without home.
    Meglin she sent to Gondolin, and his honour there was high
    as the latest seed of Fingolfin, whose glory shall not die;
    a lordship he won of the Gnome-folk who quarry deep in the earth,
    seeking their ancient jewels; but little was his mirth,
    and dark he was and secret and his hair as the strands of night
    that are tangled in Taur Fuin* the forest without light.

    And white-handed in The Shaping of Middle Earth:

    Turgon, Fingolfin's son, had a sister, Isfin the white-
    handed.
    Galadriel is also known as the White Lady in a few sources, but its probably more about how she shown to others, and what she wore, than about her skin color....

    Elwing is another character described as the "White", and compared to be 'fairest' after Luthien.


    Here was born also Elwing the White,
    fairest of women save Luthien, unto Dior in
    Ossiriand
    Caranthir also known as Carnistir as mentioned in Silmarillion and in The People's of Middle-earth which means 'red-face', and that he and his mother had ruddy complexions.


    to Feanor, later found to be also seen in his mind.
    Carnistir 'red-face' - he was dark (brown) haired, but had
    the ruddy complexion of his mother.
    Another reference from War of the Jewels, in the chapter Quendi and Eldar.

    Christopher Tolkien noted on the Vanyar (this may be the source of many of the wikis/encyclopedias stating that the majority of elves are 'pale-skinned' or even 'white skinned') that being that tolkien meant 'fair' to mean complexion rather than beauty (but in context and the way Tolkien used as he points out originally referred to the hair color of the elves, not skin color):


    Vanyar thus comes from an adjectival derivative *wanja from
    the stem *WAN. Its primary sense seems to have been very
    similar to English (modern) use of 'fair' with reference to hair
    and complexion; though its actual development was the reverse
    of the English: it meant 'pale, light-coloured, not brown or
    dark', and its implication of beauty was secondary. In English
    the meaning 'beautiful' is primary. From the same stem was
    derived the name given in Quenya to the Valie Vana wife of
    Orome
    Also mentioned in Morgoth's ring about the Vanyar, but not necessarily indicating skin pigments...


    [Other names in song and tale are given to these peoples. The
    Vanyar are the Blessed Elves, and the Spear-elves, the Elves
    of the Air, the friends of the Gods, the Holy Elves and the
    Immortal, and the Children of Ingwe; they are the Fair Folk
    and the White.
    Some of the other groups are known as "grey-elves" and "dark elves" but this appears to have nothing to do with their complexion, according to notes by Tolkien. But also to do with mixing of peoples, and also color of their hair.


    Less commonly the form Sindel, pl. Sindeldi, is also met in Exilic
    Quenya. This was the name given by the Exiled Noldor (see
    Note 11) to the second largest of the divisions of the Eldar.
    (Note 16, p. 412) It was applied to all the Elves of Telerin origin
    that the Noldor found in Beleriand, though it later excluded the
    Nandor, except those who were the direct subjects of Elwe, or
    had become merged with his people. The name meant 'the
    Grey', or 'the Grey-elves', and was derived from *THIN, PQ
    *thindi 'grey, pale or silvery grey', Q pinde, N dialect sinde.
    On the origin of this name see Note 11. The Loremasters also
    supposed that reference was made to the hair of the Sindar. Elwe
    himself had indeed long and beautiful hair of silver hue, but this
    does not seem to have been a common feature of the Sindar,
    though it was found among them occasionally, especially in the
    nearer or remoter kin of Elwe (as in the case of Cirdan).(15) In
    general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the
    Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe. Indeed they
    could hardly be told apart except by their eyes; for the eyes of
    all the Elves that had dwelt in Aman impressed those of
    Middle-earth by their piercing brightness. For which reason the
    Sindar often called them Lachend, pl. Lechind 'flame-eyed'.
    In descriptions for Finwe describes him as 'white-browed'.

    In those days she had looked
    upon the Lord of the Noldor, dark-haired and white-browed,
    eager of face and thoughtful-eyed, and he seemed to her fairest
    and noblest among the Eldar, and his voice and mastery of
    words delighted her. Therefore she remained unwedded, when
    her people departed to Valinor, and she walked often alone in
    the fields and friths of the Valar, [turning her thought to things
    that grow untended] filling them with music.

    She loved Finwe dearly; for her heart had turned to him
    long before, while the Vanyar still dwelt with the Noldor in
    Tuna. In those days she had looked upon the Lord of the
    Noldor, and he seemed to her fairest and noblest of the Eldar,
    dark-haired and white of brow, eager of face but with eyes full
    of thought; and his voice and mastery of words delighted her.
    Therefore she remained unwedded when her people removed to
    Valinor, and she walked often alone in the friths and fields of
    the Valar, filling them with music.
    In another section of the book, Tolkien's description of Idril daughter of Turgon. And another instance where Tolkien seems to connect "fairness" with pale/white in his comparisons (if not in complexion his personal sense of beauty).


    But
    fairer than all the wonders of Gondolin was Idril Turgon's
    daughter, she that was called Celebrindal the Silver-foot for the
    whiteness of her unshod feet, but her hair was as the gold of
    Laurelin ere the coming of Melkor.

    Wise-hearted even beyond the measure of the daughters of Elfinesse was the daughter of the king, and she spoke ever for Tuor, though it did not avail, and her heart was heavy. Very fair and tall was she, well nigh of warrior’s stature, and her hair was a fountain of gold. Idril was she named, and called Celebrindal, Silver-foot, for the whiteness of her foot; and she walked and danced ever unshod in the white ways and green lawns of Gondolin.

    Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Fall of Gondolin . Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.
    Then on Luthien from The Lays of Beleriend is these quotes:


    Beside the mere 65
    quickening, rippling, rising clear
    the piping called. Then forth she came,
    as sheer and sudden as a flame
    of peerless white the shadows cleaving,
    her maiden-bower on white feet leaving; 70
    and as when summer stars arise

    The grass was very long and thin,
    The leaves of many years lay thick,
    The old tree-roots wound out and in,
    And the early moon was glimmering.
    There went her white feet lilting quick,
    And Dairon's flute did bubble thin,
    As neath the hemlock umbels thick
    Tinuviel danced a-shimmering.

    Wherever grass is long and thin,
    And the leaves of countless years lie thick,
    And ancient roots wind out and in,
    As once they did in Doriath,
    Shall go their white feet lilting quick,
    But never Dairon's music thin
    Be heard beneath the hemlocks thick
    Since Beren came to Doriath.

    But Luthien would wondering stay;
    fear had she never felt or known,
    till fear then seized her, all alone,
    seeing that shape with shagged hair 615
    and shadow long that halted there.
    Then sudden she vanished like a dream
    in dark oblivion, a gleam
    in hurrying clouds, for she had leapt
    among the hemlocks tall, and crept 620
    under a mighty plant with leaves
    all long and dark, whose stem in sheaves
    upheld an hundred umbels fair;
    and her white arms and shoulders bare
    her raiment pale, and in her hair 625
    the wild white roses glimmering there,
    all lay like spattered moonlight hoar
    in gleaming pools upon the floor.

    A night there was when winter died;
    then all alone she sang and cried
    and danced until the dawn of spring,
    and chanted some wild magic thing 720
    that stirred him, till it sudden broke
    the bonds that held him, and he woke
    to madness sweet and brave despair.
    He flung his arms to the night air,
    and out he danced unheeding, fleet, 725
    enchanted, with enchanted feet.
    He sped towards the hillock green,
    the lissom limbs, the dancing sheen;
    he leapt upon the grassy hill
    his arms with loveliness to fill: 730
    his arms were empty, and she fled;
    away, away her white feet sped.
    But as she went he swiftly came
    and called her with the tender name
    of nightingales in elvish tongue, 735
    that all the woods now sudden rung:
    'Tinuviel! Tinuviel!'
    And clear his voice was as a bell;
    its echoes wove a binding spell:
    'Tinuviel! Tinuviel! ' 740
    His voice such love and longing filled
    one moment stood she, fear was stilled;
    one moment only; like a flame
    he leaped towards her as she stayed
    and caught and kissed that elfin maid.

    As love there woke in sweet surprise
    the starlight trembled in her eyes.
    A! Luthien! A! Luthien!
    more fair than any child of Men;
    0! loveliest maid of Elfinesse, 750
    what madness does thee now possess!
    A! lissom limbs and shadowy hair
    and chaplet of white snowdrops there;
    0! starry diadem and white
    pale hands beneath the pale moonlight! 755
    She left his arms and slipped away
    just at the breaking of the day.

    Heard ye not then
    of that pretty fay, of Luthien?
    Her body is fair, very white and fair.

    'O Luthien, O Luthien,
    more fair than any child of Men,
    O loveliest maid of Elfinesse,
    what might of love did thee possess
    to bring thee here to terror's lair! 2850
    O lissom limbs and shadowy hair,
    O flower-entwined brows so white,
    O slender hands in this new light! '
    In The Shaping of Middle Earth:

    Luthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel on
    her white breast was the vision of greatest beauty and glory
    that has ever been seen outside the realms of Valinor
    A little more obscure perhaps is when describing Sauron taking on his Elven appearance in the third age its described as "fair hue" (which likely means 'fair color' but I'll leave further interpretation up to individuals);


    When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eönwë, the herald of Manwë, and abjured all his evil deeds.

    Tolkien, J. R. R.. The Silmarillion (p. 341). Harper Collins, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

    Men he found the easiest to sway of all the peoples of the Earth; but long he sought to persuade the Elves to his service, for he knew that the Firstborn had the greater power; and he went far and wide among them, and his hue was still that of one both fair and wise.

    Tolkien, J. R. R.. The Silmarillion (p. 343). Harper Collins, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
    Although it suspiciously sounds a lot like the biblical quotations about Satan masquerading as an angel of light (which is more about how he shines, and nothing about skin color).

    Then another in Book of Lost Tales, which compares Eärendel, the half-elven mariner as having 'white skin'...


    Now this babe was of greatest beauty; his skin of a shining white and his eyes of a blue surpassing that of the sky in southern lands—bluer than the sapphires of the raiment of Manwë25 and the envy of Meglin was deep at his birth, but the joy of Turgon and all the people very great indeed.

    Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Book of Lost Tales, Part Two: Part Two (History of Middle-Earth 2) . Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.
    And when speaking of the Noldor...

    For the Noldor belonged to a race high and beautiful, the elder Children of the world, who now are gone. Tall they were, fair-skinned and grey-eyed, and their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finrod…

    Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Book of Lost Tales, Part One: Part One (History of Middle-Earth 1) (p. 38). Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.

    In a draft for the final paragraph of Appendix F to The Lord of the Rings he wrote: I have sometimes (not in this book) used ‘Gnomes’ for Noldor and ‘Gnomish’ for Noldorin. This I did, for whatever Paracelsus may have thought (if indeed he invented the name) to some ‘Gnome’ will still suggest knowledge.* Now the High-elven name of this people, Noldor, signifies Those who Know; for of the three kindreds of the Eldar from their beginning the Noldor were ever distinguished both by their knowledge of things that are and were in this world, and by their desire to know more. Yet they in no way resembled the Gnomes either of learned theory or popular fancy; and I have now abandoned this rendering as too misleading. For the Noldor belonged to a race high and beautiful, the elder Children of the world, who now are gone. Tall they were, fair-skinned and grey-eyed, and their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finrod…

    In the last paragraph of Appendix F as published the reference to ‘Gnomes’ was removed, and replaced by a passage explaining the use of the word Elves to translate Quendi and Eldar despite the diminishing of the English word. This passage—referring to the Quendi as a whole—continues however with the same words as in the draft: ‘They were a race high and beautiful, and among them the Eldar were as kings, who now are gone: the People of the Great Journey, the People of the Stars. They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finrod…’ Thus these words describing characters of face and hair were actually written of the Noldor only, and not of all the Eldar: indeed the Vanyar had golden hair, and it was from Finarfin’s Vanyarin mother Indis that he, and Finrod Felagund and Galadriel his children, had their golden hair that marked them out among the princes of the Noldor. But I am unable to determine how this extraordinary perversion of meaning arose.†

    Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Book of Lost Tales, Part One: Part One (History of Middle-Earth 1) (pp. 38-39). Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.
    With that the comment from the Appendix F specifically for the Noldor, which only describes 'fair skin'...

    Elves has been used to translate both Quendi, ‘the speakers’, the High-elven name of all their kind, and Eldar, the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the Undying Realm and came there at the beginning of Days (save the Sindar only). This old word was indeed the only one available, and was once fitted to apply to such memories of this people as Men preserved, or to the makings of Men’s minds not wholly dissimilar. But it has been diminished, and to many it may now suggest fancies either pretty or silly, as unlike to the Quendi of old as are butterflies to the swift falcon - not that any of the Quendi ever possessed wings of the body, as unnatural to them as to Men. They were a race high and beautiful, the older Children of the world, and among them the Eldar were as kings, who now are gone: the People of the Great Journey, the People of the Stars. They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin; 1 and their voices had more melodies than any mortal voice that now is heard. They were valiant, but the history of those that returned to Middle-earth in exile was grievous; and though it was in far-off days crossed by the fate of the Fathers, their fate is not that of Men. Their dominion passed long ago, and they dwell now beyond the circles of the world, and do not return.

    J.R.R. Tolkien. The Lord of the Rings (p. 1136-1137). Harper Collins, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
    In Peoples of Middle-Earth is are these quotes:

    And their own true name in High-Elven is Noldor, Those
    that Know; for of the Three Kindreds of the Elves in the beginning,
    ever the Noldor were distinguished both by their knowledge
    of things that are and were in this world, and by the desire
    to know yet more. Yet they were not in fact in any way like to
    the gnomes of our learned theory, and still less to the gnomes of
    popular fancy in which they have been confused with dwarves
    and goblins, and other small creatures of the earth. They
    belonged to a race high and beautiful, the Elder Children of the
    World, who now are gone. Tall they were, fairskinned and greyeyed,
    though their locks were dark, and their voices knew more
    melodies than any mortal speech that now is heard. Valiant they
    were and their history was lamentable, and though a little of it
    was woven with the fates of the Fathers of Men in the Elder
    Days, their fate is not our fate, and their lives and the lives of
    Men cross seldom.

    In conclusion I will add a note on two important modern
    words used in translation. The name Gnomes is sometimes used
    for the Noldor, and Gnomish for Noldorin. This has been done,
    because whatever Paracelsus may have thought (if indeed he
    invented the name), to some Gnome will still suggest Knowledge.
    Now the High-elven name of this folk, Noldor, signifies
    Those who Know; for of the Three Kindreds of the Elves from
    their beginning the Noldor were ever distinguished both by
    their knowledge of things that are and were in this world and
    by their desire to know more. Yet they were not in any way like
    to the gnomes of learned theory, or of literary and popular
    fancy. They belonged to a race high and beautiful, the Elder
    Children of the world, who now are gone. Tall they were, fairskinned
    and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the
    golden house of Finrod; and their voices knew more melodies
    than any mortal speech that now is heard. Valiant they were,
    but their history was grievous; and though it was in far-off days
    woven a little with the fates of the Fathers, their fate is not that
    of Men. Their dominion passed long ago, and they dwell now
    beyond the circles of the world, and do not return.

    In a later (in fact the penultimate) text of the section On Translation
    my father still retained this passage, even though by that time he had
    decided against using Gnome, Gnomish at all in The Lord of the Rings
    (as being 'too misleading'), and introduced it with the words 'I have
    sometimes (not in this book) used Gnomes for Noldor, and Gnomish
    for Noldorin'. Perhaps because the passage now seemed otiose, in the
    final text he still retained a part of it but changed its application: the
    word to be justified was now Elves, used to translate Quendi and
    Eldar. In my discussion of this in 1.43-4 I pointed out that the words
    'They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were
    dark, save in the golden house of Finrod [Finarfin]' were originally
    written of the Noldor only, and not of all the Eldar, and I objected that
    'the Vanyar had golden hair, and it was from Finarfin's Vanyarin
    mother Indis that he, and Finrod Felagund and Galadriel his children,
    had their golden hair', finding in the final use of this passage an 'extraordinary
    perversion of meaning'. But my father carefully remodelled
    the passage in order to apply it to the Eldar as a whole, and it does
    indeed seem 'extraordinary' that he should have failed to observe this
    point. It seems possible that when he re-used the passage in this way
    the conception of the golden hair of the Vanyar had not yet arisen.(4)
    Of course traditionally 'fair skin' has a specific meaning, one as mentioned previously by Christopher Tolkien at least to the British speaking countries, one tied more to complexion than 'beauty' although from Tolkien's perspective it might be his ideal idea of beauty, based on his constant comparisons to 'pale-ness = beauty'...


    https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us...h/fair-skinned

    fair-skinned in British English
    (?f???sk?nd)
    adjective
    having pale skin; pale-complexioned
    Fair-skinned people who spend a great deal of time in the sun have the greatest risk of skin cancer.
    But again the context is talking about the Noldor, not necessarily other groups.

    It's interesting to note that at least at one point while developing the Noldor he described them as 'dark of hue'... but dropped this idea in later works.

    At the end of the paragraph he added to Text A: 'Dark is their
    hue and grey are their eyes'; this did not get into the later
    typescripts.
    It at least is interesting if its a contrast against the White Lady again, and her pale/clear hue..... But both ideas never made it into later sources. Of course some have pointed out that Noldor's dark hair is stressed in other sources, so Dark of hue might be referring to that or changed to dark hair rather than hue.

    Another obscure references is made in Unfinished Tales from Easterlings peoples perspective of the elves.... In which they call them the 'white-fiends'... Why? Does it have to do with perceived skin colors? What other context could it have?


    Morwen Eledhwen remained in Hithlum, silent in grief. Her son Túrin was only in his ninth year, and she was again with child. Her days were evil. The Easterlings came into the land in great numbers, and they dealt cruelly with the people of Hador, and robbed them of all that they possessed and enslaved them. All the people of Húrin’s homelands that could work or serve any purpose they took away, even young girls and boys, and the old they killed or drove out to starve. But they dared not yet lay hands on the Lady of Dor-lómin, or thrust her from her house; for the word ran among them that she was perilous, and a witch who had dealings with the white-fiends: for so they named the Elves, hating them, but fearing them more.

    Tolkien, J. R. R.. Unfinished Tales . Harper Collins, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

    Morwen he had seen once, when he rode to her house on a foray; but a great dread of her had seized him. He thought that he had looked in the fell eyes of a white-fiend, and he was filled with a mortal fear lest some evil should overtake him; and he did not ransack her house, nor discover Túrin, else the life of the heir of the true lord would have been short.

    Tolkien, J. R. R.. Unfinished Tales . Harper Collins, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
    Other obscure descriptions of groups of elves include the warriors under Meglin in Book of Lost Tales during battle of Gondobar (Gondolin), where their faces are describe as having a ruddy glow.

    mattocks. There Meglin prince of Gondobar gathered many warriors of dark countenance and lowering gaze about him, and a ruddy glow shone upon their faces and gleamed about the polished surfaces of their accoutrement.

    Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Book of Lost Tales, Part Two: Part Two (History of Middle-Earth 2) . Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.
    Luthien's cloak was made by elves 'white-hands'. And references to elves with 'white fingers'....

    Her cloak
    by white hands woven, like a smoke,
    like all-bewildering, all-enthralling, 3820
    all-enfolding evening, falling
    from lifted arms, as forth she stepped,
    across those awful eyes she swept,
    a shadow and a mist of dreams
    wherein entangled starlight gleams.

    There mirth there was and voices bright; 85
    there eve was peace and morn was light;
    there jewel gleamed and silver wan
    and red gold on white fingers shone,
    and elanor and niphredil
    bloomed in the grass unfading still, 90
    while the endless years of Elven-land
    rolled over far Beleriand,
    until a day of doom befell,
    as still the elven-harpers tell
    Some more random descriptions of elves this time from The Song of Aelfwine from The Lost Road and Other Writings:


    There blowing free unbraided hair
    is meshed with beams of Moon and Sun,
    And twined within those tresses fair
    a gold and silver sheen is spun,
    As fleet and white the feet go bare,
    and lissom limbs in dances run,
    Shimmering in the shining air:
    such loveliness to look upon
    No mortal man hath ever won,
    though foam upon the furthest sea
    He dared, or sought behind the Sun
    for winds unearthly flowing free.
    Another detail that might be important to the discussion, but doesn't indicate skin color directly... Is that all the three clans of elves are derived from three different individuals (part of the original 144 elves, 72 males and 72 females that awoken in series of three awakenings of three clans in the east in Cuiviénen near the Sea of Helcar), divided into three clans the Minyar, which had 14 members; the Tatyar, which had 56 members; and the Nelyar (or Lindar), which had 74 members. Those who chose to go west with Orome became known collectively as the Eldar, and their clans became known by new names: the Minyar became the Vanyar, the Tatyar became the Noldor, and the Nelyar became the Teleri. Those who chose to stay behind near Cuiviénen are known as Avari. Their initial population included a little more than one-third of all Quendi and was evenly divided between Tatyar and Nelyar (it was of Avari, who some were later captured and turned into orcs). Avari (aka Moriquendi or "Dark Elves") who were slow and unwilling to depart their own lands, and would spread gradually throughout the wide lands of Middle-earth. It has also been said that elves are slow to procreate. There are not many 'generations' since they first awoken in the world. They have lived a very long time. Their population is rather small compared to the other races, and many of them are closely related. Of those Avari (which exist only east of the Misty Mountains), who are still kin to the other three clans who went west, became the largest population of all the elves, but still less than most other races.

    Another issue some point out about Tolkien is his tendency to compare others groups from 'outside' of Free Peoples lands and kingdoms of having darker complexions/skins and this is treated as somehow indicative of them being uncommon (and different to the free peoples) and from lands far to the east or to the south. This is rarely done with any of the free peoples.... This includes both humans, orcs, and cross-bred creatures (half-orcs troll-men etc).... If not dark, often being described with traits that the free peoples seem to treat as 'uncommon', potentially distasteful such as 'sallowness' (or as Tolkien put his inspiration being closer to Mongols). This has lead to criticism put against Tolkien for this perceived tendency. Some fan writers have even written stories where they play this as a form of racism by the Free Peoples, and in one case one Russian writer wrote a story from enemy's point of view that portrayed Gondor/Free Peoples as the truly bigoted, xenophobic and backwards nation (while east/south/Mordor were a diverse, technologically advanced, progressive modern society).

    Here is an example from The Lost Road and other Writings where Easterlings gets heavily contrasted against Free Peoples, noting their 'different' appearance...

    Now the Easterlings or Romenildi, as the Elves named
    these newcomers, were short and broad, long and strong in the
    arm; their hair was black, and grew much also upon their face and
    breast; their skins were swart or sallow, and their eyes brown; yet
    their countenances were for the most part not uncomely, though
    some were grim and fierce.
    There are lots of discussions in The Shaping of Middle-Earth, The Lost Road and Other Tales, and The War of the Jewels, of the elves calling them "Swarthy Men", hugely focusing on their 'otherness' (and color) to them.... Note that Easterlings themselves call the elves they encountered the "white-fiends" so this dynamic goes both ways. The Haradrim of the South are also called "Swertings (Swarthy Men) in LOTR (although swert has etymology in Old Duthc for 'sword", so its kind of a play on words?). Mind you goblins/orcs also get tossed many times into the 'swart/swarthy' category as well, along with the Easterlings, and half-orcs. We know that Bill Ferny was also stoodout for his "swarthy" complexion in LOTR (though he was a Bree-lander), and he hung around so called 'squint-eyed southerner' (implied later to be a half-orc or a goblin-man).

    The Three Houses of the elves consider the Romenildi as Swarthy-Men and Swarthy-Men consider the three houses of elves as the “White-Fiends”.

    There was small love between the Three Houses and the
    Swarthy Men; and they met seldom. For the newcomers abode
    long in East Beleriand; but the people of Hador were shut in
    Hithlum, and Beor's house was well nigh destroyed.

    In the description of the Swarthy Men, or Romenildi ('Eastern
    Men', Easterlings) as they are called here, my father was following
    AB z annal 263 (463), the year of their first coming into East
    Beleriand. The form Bor was changed from Bor subsequent to the
    writing of the manuscript, as in AB 2 (note 33), but Ulfang and
    Ulwarth (appearing only by emendation in AB 2) are original.
    $152. There is here the explicit assertion that the house of Beor was
    well nigh destroyed -, earlier in this chapter ($138) it was said that after
    the Battle of Sudden Fire 'Barahir was now by right lord of the
    remnant of the folk of Beor; but most of these fled from Dorthonion
    and took refuge among the people of Hador in the fastness of Hithlum.'
    The passage concerning the people of Haleth and the destruction of
    the Orcs in Brethil by Haleth and Beleg with archers out of Doriath is
    derived from annal 258 in AB 2, and much expanded.
    $153. The story of Hurin's sojourn in Gondolin is found in AB 2 (annal
    256) in very much the same form as it is told here. The statement in the
    opening sentence of the paragraph that Haleth and Hurin (then
    seventeen years old) were 'in that battle' refers to the destruction of the
    Orcs in Brethil in the year 458; Hurin was born in 441. See note 32 to
    AB z.
    Or in the case in LOTR when Smeagol who has been from one side of the mountains to others, and a been to Mordor and back talks about 'dark faces' and not having seen men like them before...


    ‘More Men going to Mordor,’ he said in a low voice. ‘Dark faces. We have not seen Men like these before, no, Sméagol has not. They are fierce. They have black eyes, and long black hair, and gold rings

    J.R.R. Tolkien. The Lord of the Rings (p. 646). Harper Collins, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

    Some other notes... Beornings and Hador according to the Peoples of Middle-earth... as the detail is kinda interesting. Although unrelated to discussion on elves.... Noteably they are kin to the folk of Hador, but show more physical differences skin wise...


    The Folk of Hador were ever the greatest in numbers of the
    Atani, and in renown (save only Beren son of Barahir descendant
    of Beor). For the most part they were tall people, with flaxen
    or golden hair and blue-grey eyes, but there were not a few
    among them that had dark hair, though all were fair-skinned.

    There were fair-haired men and women among the
    Folk of Beor, but most of them had brown hair (going usually
    with brown eyes), and many were less fair in skin, some indeed
    being swarthy. Men as tall as the Folk of Hador were rare
    among them, and most were broader and more heavy in build.
    In the story Tale-Elmar we get some interesting viewpoints from the Wild Men locals as they see the Numenoreans colonizing Middle-earth from the west (which compares what swart people think of the white-skinned people)...


    In the days of the Dark Kings, when a man could still walk dryshod
    from the Rising of the Sun to the Sea of its setting, there
    lived in the fenced town of his people in the green hills of Agar
    an old man, by name Hazad Longbeard.(1) Two prides he had: in
    the number of his sons (seventeen in all), and in the length of his
    beard (five feet without stretching); but his joy in his beard was
    the greater. For it remained with him, and was soft, and ruly to
    his hand, whereas his sons for the most part were gone from
    him, and those that remained, or came ever nigh, were neither
    gentle nor ruly. They were indeed much as Hazad himself had
    been in the days of his youth: broad, swarthy, short, tough,
    harsh-tongued, heavy-handed, and quick to violence.
    Save one only, and he was the youngest. Tal-elmar Hazad his
    father named him. He was yet but eighteen years of age, and
    lived with his father, and the two of his brothers next elder. He
    was tall, and white-skinned, and there was a light in his grey
    eyes that would flash to fire, if he were wroth; and though that
    happened seldom, and never without great cause, it was a thing
    to remember and be ware of. Those who had seen that fire
    called him Flint-eye, and respected him, whether they loved him
    or no. For Tal-elmar might seem, among that swart sturdy folk,
    slender-built and lacking in the strength of leg and neck that
    they praised, but a man that strove with him soon found him
    strong beyond guess, and sudden and swift, hard to grapple and
    harder to elude.

    Never again shall I be glad,
    while I am held captive among a strange folk that I deem base
    and unlovely.'
    'So be it,' said Buldar. 'But it is not to be thought that I should
    let thee go free. For thou art precious in my sight. And consider
    well: vain is it to seek to escape from me. Long is the way to the
    remnant of thy folk, if any still live; and thou wouldst not go far
    from the Hills of Agar ere thou met death, or a life far worse
    than shall be thine in my house. Base and unlovely thou namest
    us. Truly, maybe. Yet true is it also that thy folk are cruel, and
    lawless, and the friends of demons. Thieves are they. For our
    lands are ours from of old, which they would wrest from us
    with their bitter blades. White skins and bright eyes are no
    warrant for such deeds.'
    It another major human, Wormtongue is described as a 'pale man' with a 'pale wise face', having a 'long pale tongue' suggesting he is abnormally pale, compared to other people around him, Gandalf, and the other members of the Fellowship there.

    Denethor is described as having 'skin like ivory'.

    Hobbits get a little more description of the Harfoots being 'browner' than other groups.. And Fallohide coming from their skin color of being 'pale' and 'fair-skin' from 'fallow' also means "light yellowish-brown color"... Stoors I think described between swarthy and ruddy in some sources (but not in LOTR itself, so not exactly sure on the sources of this info, maybe it comes from unofficial sources?). Bilbo's people as described in the Hobbit are said to have 'clever brown fingers'. Frodo is described as being a "stout little fellow with red cheeks" by Butturbur.

    On Gollum we have this quote:

    His skin was white, no doubt with a pallor increased by dwelling long in the dark, and later by hunger. He remained a human being, not an animal or a mere bogey, even if deformed in mind and body: an object of disgust, but also of pity – to the deep-sighted, such as Frodo had become. There is no need to wonder how he came by clothes or replaced them: any consideration of the tale will show that he had plenty of opportunities by theft, or charity (as of the Wood-elves), throughout his life. —Bodleian, Department of Western Manuscripts, Tolkien Papers, A61 fols 1– 31.

    Tolkien, J. R. R.; John D. Rateliff. The History of the Hobbit: Mr Baggins and Return to Bag-End: Mr Baggins v. 1 (Kindle Locations 21323-21327). HarperCollins Publishers. Kindle Edition.
    In the Hobbit he's described as;


    He was Gollum— as dark as darkness, except for two big round pale eyes in his thin face.

    Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Hobbit (Kindle Location 1181). Harper Collins, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
    In LOTR itself, described as having 'tight-drawn sallow skin', and having almost bone-white legs, long whitish hands, and as a 'black fellow' by some orcs.


    over the border; and anyway I had never heard of any like this black fellow. ‘“ Good-day to you!” I says, going out to him. “This lane don’t lead anywhere, and wherever you may be going, your quickest way will be back to the road.” I didn’t like the looks of him; and when Grip came out, he took one sniff and let out a yelp as if he had been stung: he put down his tail and bolted off howling. The black fellow sat quite still. ‘“ I come from yonder,” he said, slow and stiff-like, pointing back west, over my fields, if you please. “Have you seen Baggins?” he asked in a queer voice, and bent down towards me. I could not see any face, for his hood fell down so low; and I felt a sort of shiver down my back. But I did not see why he should come riding over my land so bold. ‘“ Be off!” I said. “There are no Bagginses here. You’re in the wrong part of the Shire. You had better go back west to Hobbiton – but you can go by road this time.” ‘“ Baggins has left,” he answered in a whisper. “He is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold.” ‘“ No you won’t,” I said. “You’ll go back where you belong, double quick. I give you one minute before I call all my dogs.” ‘He gave a sort of hiss. It might have been laughing, and it might not. Then he spurred his great horse right at me, and I jumped out of the way only just in time. I called the dogs, but he swung off, and rode through the gate and up the lane towards the causeway like a bolt of thunder. What do you think of that?’ Frodo sat for a moment looking at the fire, but his only thought was how on earth would they reach the Ferry. ‘I don’t know what to think,’ he said at last. ‘Then I’ll tell you what to think,’ said Maggot. ‘You should never have gone mixing yourself up with Hobbiton folk, Mr. Frodo. Folk are queer up there.’ Sam stirred in his chair, and looked at the farmer with an unfriendly eye. ‘But you were always a reckless lad. When I heard you had left the Brandybucks and gone off to that old Mr. Bilbo, I said that you were going to find trouble. Mark my words, this all comes of those strange doings of Mr. Bilbo’s. His money was got in some strange fashion in foreign parts, they say. Maybe there is some that want to know what has become of the gold and jewels that he buried in the hill of Hobbiton, as I hear?’ Frodo said nothing: the shrewd guesses of the farmer were rather disconcerting. ‘Well, Mr. Frodo,’ Maggot went on, ‘I’m glad that you’ve had the sense to come back to Buckland. My advice is: stay there! And don’t get mixed up with these outlandish folk. You’ll have friends in these parts. If any of these black fellows come after you again, I’ll deal with them. I’ll say you’re dead, or have left the Shire, or anything you like. And that might be true enough; for as like as not it is old Mr. Bilbo they want news of.’

    J.R.R. Tolkien. The Lord of the Rings (pp. 94-95). Harper Collins, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

    ‘You must have seen him: little thin black fellow; like a spider himself, or perhaps more like a starved frog. He’s been here before.

    J.R.R. Tolkien. The Lord of the Rings (p. 738). Harper Collins, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
    Apparently to explain this though;



    He is often said to be dark or black. At his first mention [in The Hobbit] he was 'dark as darkness': that of course means no more than that he could not be seen with ordinary eyes in the black cavern - except for his own large luminous eyes; similarly 'the dark shape' at night [The Lord of the Rings, Book II, Chapter 9]. But that does not apply to the 'black (crawling) shape' [in Book IV, Chapter 1], where he was in moonlight.

    Gollum was never naked. He had a pocket in which he kept the Ring....His skin was white, no doubt with a pallor increased by dwelling long in the dark, and later by hunger.

    A Reader's Companion Book IV Chapter 1: "The Taming of Sméagol"
    Also as I previously mentioned 'swarthy' is a vague word... it doesn't necessarily mean 'dark' as in black skin... it can have to do with tanned skin, weather-beaten skin... Considering that so-called 'white' is a spectrum from between very pale (not albinoism) to extreme tanned 'brownish' skin...

    https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/swarthy


    Swarthy means dark skinned. If you like tall, dark and handsome men, you find a swarthy complexion attractive.

    Not everyone with dark skin is swarthy. The word is usually used to describe someone whose skin is weather beaten and darkened by the sun, or has an olive complexion. But the famous 19th-century American poet Walt Whitman, who was of English and Dutch stock, seemed to be describing himself in his poem "Behold This Swarthy Face," so swarthy may be in the eyes of the beholder.
    Swarthy is often in literature used in context to fall onto the end of the "white" scale. These are often referred to as "Caucasian", "Western", "European" in medical journals/scientific journals (but none is really precise or accurate). I speak only in the skin tone sense, not in geographic sense, as these places actually have people of medium and darker shades of melanin as well, from immigration, or in ancient times (like perhaps 8000 years ago), evolving into the current skin tones over time/or from intermarriage from the near-east, whatever the individual genetic histories. It doesn't necessarily mean 'black'.
    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...kin-180954874/

    On Rohan people they are all pale skinned compared to other people around them (even some in Gondor are more swarthy compared to them, especially those from Forlong’s people):

    "We will take their king. Death to the Forgoil!
    Death to the Strawheads! Death to the robbers of the North!" Such names they have for us.
    Not in half a thousand years have they forgotten their grievance that the lords of Gondor gave the Mark to Eorl the Young and made alliance with him. That old hatred Saruman has inflamed. They are fierce folk when roused.
    They will not give way now for dusk or dawn, until Theoden is taken, or they themselves are slain.'

    Of their language nothing appears in this book, save the name Forgoil which they gave to the Rohirrim (meaning Strawheads, it is said).
    Dunland and Dunlending are the names that the Rohirrim gave to them, because they were swarthy and dark-haired; there is thus no con-nexion between the word dunn in these names and the Grey-elven word Dûn 'west'.

    Page 564
    .. grass and wait for the Whiteskins to join the picnic?' 'But we can't run in the sunlight. 'You'll run with me behind you,' said Uglúk. 'Run! Or you'll never see yo...
    Page 566
    .. If you're afraid of the Whiteskins, run! Run! There's the forest, he shouted, pointing ahead. 'Get to it! It's your best hope. Off you go! And quick, before I knock a few more ...
    Page 567
    ... Lugbúrz was your road. The Whiteskins are coming.
    What's happened to your precious Nazgûl? Has he had another mount shot under him? Now, if you'd brought h.
    Page 568
    ... the Isengarders. 'You're cooked. The Whiteskins will catch you and eat you. They're coming!' A cry from Grishnakh showed that this was not mere jest. Horsem...
    Page 570
    ..be killed, unless the filthy Whiteskins break through.
    Understand? As long as I'm alive, I want 'em. But they're not to cry out, and they're not to be rescued. Bind their 1.
    Page 571
    ... in the dark. But these Whiteskins have better night-eyes than most Men, from all I've heard; and don't forget their horses! They can see the night-breeze, or so it's said.
    Last edited by Baggins; Apr 22 2023 at 08:36 PM.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by soltasword View Post
    Wow, that is never going to bring in new players to this game. I hope SSG looks at this and sees just how ridiculous this is in LOTRO. This looks like they put Tolkien and the lore of LOTR in a rocket and sent it to the sun. If it isn't removed or at least an option to turn it off isn't made then I want a beer gut, sunglasses, and really tight junk showing speedos for my male characters. Man, I think this might finally be enough for me to cancel my sub after 13 years.
    Well that's extremely rude of you to say. My character player belongs in this game just as much as the next, and I am finally happy to have a representative character for me!

    If my wonderful character model bothers you that much, maybe you should re-evaluate being on the internet. I cant understand the mind of someone who would get bothered by this so much, maybe seek out your inner demons through regular weekly counseling?

    Best of luck to you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baggins View Post
    Tolkien and Christopher on Beards. And secondly on appearances… by peoples and tribes…

    Discussion of many of Tolkiens discussions of appearances by geographical regions and people.
    "Not all those who wander are lost....some are so stubborn that they always think they're going in the right direction."

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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by zipfile View Post
    That’s ok it’s only for people who are about lore, and what Tolkien wrote. If you aren’t one of those it doesn’t apply to you. Because we know many people don’t care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakreal View Post
    Well that's extremely rude of you to say. My character player belongs in this game just as much as the next, and I am finally happy to have a representative character for me!

    If my wonderful character model bothers you that much, maybe you should re-evaluate being on the internet. I cant understand the mind of someone who would get bothered by this so much, maybe seek out your inner demons through regular weekly counseling?

    Best of luck to you!
    Ok, now imagine if with next update they change your representative character in game into something what you don't look like representative for you anymore. You will be happy?

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elmagor View Post
    Ok, now imagine if with next update they change your representative character in game into something what you don't look like representative for you anymore. You will be happy?
    I am unsure what that has to do with this thread. Please consider making a new thread or perhaps a thread you have already responded to about unwanted changes to avatars.


    My character is representative of any character that exists in lotro equally. And I am proud to be apart of their journey.

    I am able to express myself freely as seen here in the midst of battle.


    Thank you lotro DEV's for this amazing change!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakreal View Post
    Thank you lotro DEV's for this amazing change!
    is what all would have said... if only the overall graphics got a visible boost in some way (and there are numerous possibilities, off the top of my head)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakreal View Post
    Well that's extremely rude of you to say. My character player belongs in this game just as much as the next, and I am finally happy to have a representative character for me!

    If my wonderful character model bothers you that much, maybe you should re-evaluate being on the internet. I cant understand the mind of someone who would get bothered by this so much, maybe seek out your inner demons through regular weekly counseling?

    Best of luck to you!

    Actually, maybe you should seek out your insecurities with weekly counseling if not being able to accept others opinions is such an issue for you. If you want to do anything that is out of the norm, you have to be able to accept that not everyone is going to like it or agree with it ( nor should they have to). And if people not liking or agreeing with you for your choice(s) bothers you then you yourself are not comfortable with the choice(s) you made. It isn't anyone's responsibility to make you feel good about what choice(s) you make for yourself. It's your responsibility.

    All I ask was a simple option to be able to turn beards off on women for those of us who think they don't belong in this game ( and they don't ) because it breaks our immersion in the game. If you want to wear one, go right ahead, no one is stopping you. And I am glad for you that you think your character represents you now. But it still doesn't change the fact that it is a ridiculous option that wasn't needed nor should have been put into the game. You don't have to agree with my opinion, you don't have to like my opinion, but you do have to accept that I am entitled to my opinion just like you, yours. And neither your opinion or mine is better than the other. Their just different.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakreal View Post


    Im glad I now have the option to roam middle earth with my bearded brethren. Thank you SSG for this amazing change I am happy to be included in your online adventure
    What are they doing to our game...?
    "The leaves were long, the grass was green, The hemlock-umbels tall and fair, And in the glade a light was seen Of stars in shadow shimmering.
    Tinuviel was dancing there To music of a pipe unseen, And light of stars was in her hair, And in her raiment glimmering. [...]" ~ J.R.R. Tolkien

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by soltasword View Post
    Actually, maybe you should seek out your insecurities with weekly counseling if not being able to accept others opinions is such an issue for you. If you want to do anything that is out of the norm, you have to be able to accept that not everyone is going to like it or agree with it ( nor should they have to). And if people not liking or agreeing with you for your choice(s) bothers you then you yourself are not comfortable with the choice(s) you made. It isn't anyone's responsibility to make you feel good about what choice(s) you make for yourself. It's your responsibility.

    All I ask was a simple option to be able to turn beards off on women for those of us who think they don't belong in this game ( and they don't ) because it breaks our immersion in the game. If you want to wear one, go right ahead, no one is stopping you. And I am glad for you that you think your character represents you now. But it still doesn't change the fact that it is a ridiculous option that wasn't needed nor should have been put into the game. You don't have to agree with my opinion, you don't have to like my opinion, but you do have to accept that I am entitled to my opinion just like you, yours. And neither your opinion or mine is better than the other. Their just different.
    really has nothing to do with an opinion or not. And yours is a very destructive opinion that wont solve your problem.


    You want:
    An option in a video game to toggle off the way people look. Because you cant get a handle, emotionally I might add, that people look different than what you like.

    Sounds a lot like some unchecked emotional hatred is going on. Something is not wired upstairs correctly and requires further self-evaluation or you can seek outside sources. Its okay friend!


    Hope this helps! My character is cheering for you!

    Dwarrowdelf: R12 Warden Jak\ R8 Minstrell Amoxx\ R10 Runekeeper Smellslike\ R9 reaver Martiall\ R10 Defiler Tussin-1
    Crickhollow: R12 Defiler Tussinn\ R10 Reaver Martiall\ R10 Warg Superiorskill

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    If you really want to play a bearded woman, then come join those of us who play female dwarves. We already exist and are Tolkien-approved! They already had dark or light skin options, and interesting braided styles. You can choose from Longbeard (more luxurious beards) or Stout-Axe (actual female pro-nouns.) I play both but I prefer Stout-Axe.

    Honestly, I'm a bit peeved that SSG seems to have forgotten that we players of bearded women already exist. Female dwarves were unique for their beards and now they are not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soltasword View Post

    All I ask was a simple option to be able to turn beards off on women for those of us who think they don't belong in this game ( and they don't ) because it breaks our immersion in the game.
    This is a world where goblins and trolls exist and trees can move around and your issue is beards?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baggins View Post
    Tolkien and Christopher on Beards. And secondly on appearances… by peoples and tribes….
    Thank you for taking the time to compile this. I have all of the source material, but not the time to painstakingly sift for each reference over so many of the course of the Professor's writing history. Particularly with his Letters, where he delves into more detail over these specific topics. Bravo, Baggins!
    Check out my LOTRO videos on Youtube at: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRX...jPUNAiwtrJ_eiw

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rimenuir View Post
    This is a world where goblins and trolls exist and trees can move around and your issue is beards?
    What is with this argument? I hear it so often, I just don't get it. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean anything goes! Goblins, Trolls and Ents exist in the world Tolkien created. Bearded women do NOT (with exception of the dwarves). You can't just add anything you want, just because it's fantasy.
    "The leaves were long, the grass was green, The hemlock-umbels tall and fair, And in the glade a light was seen Of stars in shadow shimmering.
    Tinuviel was dancing there To music of a pipe unseen, And light of stars was in her hair, And in her raiment glimmering. [...]" ~ J.R.R. Tolkien

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanguardIV View Post
    So are rune-keepers, Brawlers, hordes of hobbits leaving the shire. Us fighting a balrog and surviving when even Glorfindel died trying. Elves allowing dwarves entrance into Lothlorien.

    Hobbit homes having dwarf, elf, beorning, and men home owners. The Rohirrim ignoring our elf characters as being elves and just being friendly to us. The Nameless being Aliens. Anything to do with Mordor's expansion.

    And about 80% of the game.

    Didn't break the game then, and frankly people didn't seem to mind so much.
    Where prove what everyone who encounter balrog 100% die during fight? Tolkien never say that. Elves can allow dwarves enter into Lothlorien, you can ask Gimli if you want.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbit_bounder View Post
    What is with this argument? I hear it so often, I just don't get it. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean anything goes! Goblins, Trolls and Ents exist in the world Tolkien created. Bearded women do NOT (with exception of the dwarves). You can't just add anything you want, just because it's fantasy.
    Agreed. Any and every MMO has a line, so were do we draw it? What would be the things they wouldn't accept, and why?

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laithien View Post
    Agreed. Any and every MMO has a line, so were do we draw it? What would be the things they wouldn't accept, and why?
    Flying mounts, apparently.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakreal View Post
    really has nothing to do with an opinion or not. And yours is a very destructive opinion that wont solve your problem.


    You want:
    An option in a video game to toggle off the way people look. Because you cant get a handle, emotionally I might add, that people look different than what you like.

    Sounds a lot like some unchecked emotional hatred is going on. Something is not wired upstairs correctly and requires further self-evaluation or you can seek outside sources. Its okay friend!

    Thank you for proving my point. You totally believe your opinion is the only one that matters and because my opinion differs from yours, I am the one with the problem. Well, I am done here. There is no point trying to get through to you since you believe your way of playing the game is the only way and everyone who doesn't agree with you has some kind of emotional problem. Happy bearded trails to you.


  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laithien View Post
    Agreed. Any and every MMO has a line, so were do we draw it? What would be the things they wouldn't accept, and why?
    They would cheer if SSG added guns and actively defend it. We can't win.
    "The leaves were long, the grass was green, The hemlock-umbels tall and fair, And in the glade a light was seen Of stars in shadow shimmering.
    Tinuviel was dancing there To music of a pipe unseen, And light of stars was in her hair, And in her raiment glimmering. [...]" ~ J.R.R. Tolkien

 

 
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