On Lore-masters and Tamed Creatures

[CaerArianrhod]

This has come up in several posts, but it is the sort of change that would fundamentally alter the class. One might argue that in LotRO, the Lore-master is the one true induction-based heavy hitter remaining in the game. For players who enjoy that playstyle, what are their other options should anchored inductions be removed from the class? Not to suggest that there should be no changes to inductions, but a categorical change allowing all damaging skills on the move (even if only in red-line) would be a significant shift.

This may be true from a higher view about general class balancing.
As a player, for me, it looks like (taking the delvings as an example. This is an exaggerated example!! An LM don't die that easy): try to cast a big spell with long induction/animation --> get some puddles under my feet --> move out of puddles --> try to cast a big spell with long induction/animation --> get some puddles under my feet --> move out of puddles --> dying.
But this is the main problem: SSG is creating more and more dynamic environments, and a "true induction-based" class just don't fit in such environments any more well.
The "heavy hitter" is questionable. The burst damage is "nice", if we can go through all big damaging skills, but all what it is "nice". Not enough to be the "true induction-based" class, since some cooldowns are too long and the single target skills do too less damage without their corresponding traceries.
Maybe would help here to combine some traceries into one (like Ring of Fire, Cracked Earth, Sticky Ground has all the same percentage) so we could slot some traceries for the single target skills too.

One of the reasons this discussion is valuable is that Lore-masters still have one foot in pre-Helm’s Deep class design. A red-line, full-DPS Lore-master still has a large number of skills which are unrelated to improving your personal damage (or even survivability). Signs of Power, KotLM, Beacon, etc provide you with little to no personal benefit, and this is before considering the fact that a level-capped Lore-master still has a heap of trait points to spend in either blue-line (at least providing some personal benefit through the inner-flame damage bonus and catmint-raven debuff) or yellow-line (where you immediately pick up lores, even if you’re just trying to pull things like the +Lightning Damage passive on Storm Lore traits).
This leaves a DPS-oriented Lore-master with a kit loaded with group support skills, even if they’re running about solo or even (perish the thought) trying to fill a DPS-space in a 3-person group.

This is true, but ...
In my opinion: if you are "wiping out" skills from the red line, the red line LM would need to get a significant damage boost. And I am not sure if that would make sense, because we have dedicated DD classes. The argument with 3 man is a double-edged sword, because such a red line wouldn't be only for 3 man instances. Trust me, I don't enjoy playing any other class as much as my red line LM, but I think the main reason is that even a red line LM can do a lot of other things too, and I wouldn't like to change that too much. What would we have if you're removing all those "unrelated to improving your personal damage" skills? A class with a lot of fire and lightning skills. But we already have the Rune Keeper for that. IMHO the red line need some improvement like lower CD and/or lower induction time and/or a bit more damage, but making the red line to a second rune keeper like line? I don't think that's necessary.

While this is true of the current state of the game, is there any reason why a yLM should be the only class able to fill that support role? Burglars also have a support trait specialization, but most players don’t turn up their noses at a burglar being able to put out respectable damage while traited and built for maximizing damage output. In abstract, why shouldn’t a yellow-line burglar be able to fill the ‘support’ role for a group while a Lore-master fills a ‘DPS’ slot?

There is no reason, why a yellow-line burglar shouldn’t be able to fill the ‘support’ role for a group while a Lore-master fills a ‘DPS’ slot, IF you rework not only the Lore master but also the Burglar. The yellow LM is the stronger class in terms of mass control and debuffing (except mass corruption removal) and DPS support in 6-man or in raid. For 3 man is the opposite true, a yellow burg is preferable because of it's DPS while still fully supporting.

The core issue with pets (from my perspective at least) is the fact that they were not designed to be re-summoned in combat, let alone ad-infinitum in combat. When folks say ‘we’re just using pet skills’ that’s totally fine until you start dismissing and re-summoning a pet with the knowledge that re-summoning it will reset all of its skill cooldowns.

I absolutely agree with you. We have seen in HoA at the 2nd boss how this can be abused.
But to be honest, I am not sure who to blame for that. Pets and pets related issues have been neglected for a very long time, or they were some "quick fixes" with more questionable results than solutions. See Naerband for first big nerf to bear, then removing aggro stance of pets, passing the eagle to blue line only, newly the removal of the "tanking" from bear. Clearly, those abilities have been abused and used for exploits. But those "quick fixes" - albeit understandable - did more bad to pets than good.

While we have the ability to put an initial cooldown on pet skills (which makes a skill unavailable immediately when a pet is summoned) this isn’t ideal because the cooldown isn’t visible to the player. Our only real alternatives are to either nerf the pet skills themselves (or otherwise prevent them being used, like with bear taunts in instances) or to add a cooldown to the summoning skill itself, which prevents you from resetting your pet skills repeatedly (though you can still do it twice in quick succession, assuming you have already had the pet out for long enough that its summon cooldown has already elapsed).

...

As a hypothetical, what if your pets no longer had debuff-applying skills, but you had a single debuff skill on your bar which changed depending on your active pet (essentially a dynamic lore skill with higher uptime than cooldown) which allowed you to apply multiple debuffs via either pet cycling or target cycling, but at a lower rate than what is currently achievable via pets?

What about a solution like the "Oathbreaker's Shame"? It has a CD on the target mob. Such a CD on the mob itself could have been the solution for the bear taunt too.
The idea with a "dynamic lore skill" sounds very interesting. (Actually, something similar has been done with the Warden's Way of the Spear/Shield/Fist)
Balancing cool downs and effect durations would/could be a difficult task. Raids in the current state of the game are a DPS race in high tiers. The support from an LM and the pet debuffs are essential for succeeding, so ideally they are up all the time.

Depending on what you are going to do with the other pets, but if we still have only 3 combat-buff pets (bear, lurker, raven), how could this skill work?
60 sec CD on pet summoning, 70 sec pet effect duration, 20 sec CD on the skill itself.
Green: first rotation
Orange: second rotation

	sec.	20 sec skill CD	sec.	20 sec skill CD	sec.	20 sec skill CD	sec.	20 sec skill CD	sec.	20 sec skill CD	sec.
1. pet effect CD	70		50		30		10/70	-	50		30
1. pet summon CD	60		40		20		60	-	40		20
2. pet effect CD	-		70		50		30		10/70		50
2. pet summon CD	-		60		40		20	-	60		40
3. pet effect CD	-		-		70		50	-	30		10/70
3. pet summon CD	-		-		60		40	-	20		60

Would leave 10 Seconds for summoning induction and casting the spell and other things. If the effect is still running, it would be refreshing itself.
There is only one draw back: it still not offer a solution to the problem, when the pet is killed before the skill could be used.

Would you support a change that locked more debuff potential behind the Ancient Master specialization, while freeing red-line to deal more direct damage?

No. See above, that would make the red line to a 2nd rune keeper.

On trait-lines, specializations, and group roles:

I have observed before that the blue trait specialization, the Keeper of Animals, does not seems to have a clearly defined role. Thematically, it’s the ‘pets’ trait line, but what does that mean for your role and priorities? It has a bit of group support, a bit of personal damage, but mostly ends up being used to moderately enhance red or yellow (or for the occasional cheeky flipped version of those two which are essentially the same but with Murder of Crows in lieu of other capstones).

For this reason, I have floated the possibility of the blue ‘Keeper of Animals’ tree becoming a passive trait tree. Though a number of players have argued that the ‘Ancient Master’ line, being the ‘core’ identity of the class should become passive instead, and at least one player has argued that the ‘Keeper of Animals’ tree should remain a specialization but provide the benefits of a red captain, acting as an alternative choice for offensive group support..

Over time, the blue line had increasingly become a niche product. If any of the skill trees are going to be only a supporting line, then as it currently is, it would be the blue. The pets are too weak. Damage is less than mediocre, even if skilled blue-red, there isn't enough group support to skill blue-yellow.
I don't mind if the line stay, but in that case it needs a significant amount of love. At the end, it will be an economical decision (time and effort) what happens to it.

[SerowLOTRO]

I originally rolled LM to play as a gish-type (D&D battlemage) but I think Red LM should be the utility line, so that LM has a stronger identity as the pet and support class. We already have RK for magic badaboom, all the LM's funky dot gameplay can be used to reinforce Red RK gameplay. Make Blue pets worth something by changing traceries from magical damage to pet damage, and either cut down on magic damage spells, or make them have more interactions with pets/debuffs.

[Elmagor]

I never understand why devlopers putting such nerf on bear pet to prevent abuse with boss and screw 99.9% of bear use for LM when they can just add new buff to boss. Remove protection from slow effects, CC and FM from instance bosses or add new buff related to bear pet/captain herald. Every class must have same threat from developers. Why nerf LM bear when you don't nerf other classes for same things? Not fair in all. Bad and not wise decision.

[Loox]

I originally rolled LM to play as a gish-type (D&D battlemage) but I think Red LM should be the utility line, so that LM has a stronger identity as the pet and support class. We already have RK for magic badaboom, all the LM's funky dot gameplay can be used to reinforce Red RK gameplay. Make Blue pets worth something by changing traceries from magical damage to pet damage, and either cut down on magic damage spells, or make them have more interactions with pets/debuffs.

Lms are supposed to be support, not cannons. I agree red should be utility.

[Ryvick]

Or, what if you rework Blue to be a dedicated Spec-able Healer role line (Allowing all pets and any changes including spec-able blue traits made to improve them into Standard LM auto-granted), Red a spec-able DPS line, and Yellow a Utility line (Still focused Heavily on Buff/Debuff/CC)

[Daniyel]

I like that the pet rotation adds activity and raises the skill ceiling. I've also gotten adjusted to the 3 minute cooldown on the spirit of nature pet.


I find myself using different pets in different circumstances. the circumstances don't really depend on content. they depend on the group composition.


meaning, If we have a hunter in group, I always use Bear, Bog Lurker, and Raven if the hunter runs Fire Oil.


If we have a Fire RK in the group, I always run Raven.


If we have champ, burg, brawler, red beorning, or hunter, I always run a Bear at least.


Each pet has its own role.


I feel like my pets actively contribute to our gameplay in group play via pet rotation and bear tanking in fellowship instances (Not raids anymore since it got disabled).


I feel like my pets actively contribute to my gameplay solo.


I do mostly find myself locked into whatever is optimal for the group because i want to contribute the maximum amount to the group via pet rotations ie Catmint raven, bog lurker, bear, heal pet in a pinch.


I am frustrated by the fact that the long-mez is also my interrupt skill, but im happy that I can use most skills while moving and not having to face the targets. please do NOT revert that change no matter what else you do!


Water-lore-stacking provides me with something to steadily cycle into my skills and help the healers keep everyone healed up greatly. the recent revert back to having an initial heal is MOST welcome thank you for fixing that!


I feel like I contribute meaningfully to the group in moments where there are few/no adds to CC or manage by working the pet rotation and keeping burning embers and water lore up. without a pet rotation, i would be so bored with nothing to do!

[Maedol]

The most annoying thing about yellow lore master is these lore debuffs.

The problem is that when using Windlore, only the very 1st effect is distributed, so you often have to use a completely useless fire or lightning skill to make it 2nd or 3rd. Please fix this.

I would also very much like the Pleasant breeze skill to be always available without using the useless gust of wind. Lm support-heal in my understanding, but 2 skills per heal is not enough. Also in this regard, I would like him to have a 5% crit chance in the yellow line

[bohbashum]

SIZE=3]Pets (more than just the Keeper of Animals trait line)[/SIZE]
Do you engage with the ‘pet rotation’? If yes, how do you feel about it? Do you like that it adds activity or raises the skill ceiling, or do you find it overwhelming or even tedious?

Do you find yourself using different pets in different circumstances? Do you feel like your pets actively contribute to your gameplay and your Lore-master fantasy? Do you have opportunities to use the pets you like, stylistically? Or do mostly find yourself locked into a few types, either statically or in a constant ‘pet rotation’ (ie: Catmint raven, boglurker, bear).

Some of you may have guessed at this, but we’re eyeing some changes to pets similar to the changes made to captain pets in U35. Primarily, that would mean a pet summoning cooldown, which would limit your ability to use any given pet skill repeatedly (ie: bypassing the pet skill cooldowns by dismissing and resummoning the pet itself). Like captain heralds, this would still allow you to immediately resummon a pet that you have had out for a while (long enough for its cooldown time to fully elapse) but it would prevent you from using pet skills more than twice in a row without waiting for either the individual skill’s cooldown or the pet summoning cooldown.

I don't like the "Pet Rotation" as it acts outside of the normal gameplay.

By this I purely mean you are managing 2 sets of skill queues.

This is a pet issue in general in a lot of games. And maybe thats what people like about pets. But the idea of a "Pet" in my mind has always been one of coordination, not separation. If I want the pet to do a skill, my personal character should also act on it.

Sic'Em was, in my opinion, a great functional skill of what pets should do. You still have "The Pet Rotation" but instead of; Summon -> Use Skill -> Dissmiss, it should just be 1 skill, Summon pet. Then the pet autonomously uses it's skill and dismisses itself.


Suggestion:

To this end I would much rather simplify pets into 2 categories
- Active Pet
- Skill Pet

Active Pets
- These pets are actively out
- Doing things independent to the lore master on there own skill bar (like live...)
- You are not dismissing them or benefitting from dismissing them or rotating pets. They are out permanently.
- You can micromanage the pet for optimisation or set-and-forget, or, leave it on passive for it's passive buffs (Eagle, Raven, Light)

Skill Pets
- These pets are tied to a Lore-Masters skill
- The lore-master uses a skill, the pet is summoned, the pet does it's thing, and then leaves.
- Example 1. Bear taunt: The lore-master will summon a bear that will grab aggro for 10seconds. Apon ending will leave. Cooldown 1min.
- Example 2. Bog Lurkers Strike: The lore-master summons a bug lurker to strike and mark the target for ranged attacked. +5% inc Ranged & Tactical critical chance for 30s. Cooldown 1min.
- Example 3. Sabertooths Swipe: The lore-master summons a sabertooth that swipes and chills 5 targets. 5m radius. +5% inc Melee critical chance for 30s. Cooldown 1min.

This way you still have pets as a key part of the class, they're still being "rotated". The debuffs can remain. But it's less crowded on your ability and more on your active choices and cooldowns.

Obviously take numbers will grain of salt as I'm fully assuming there would be LI traceries or traits to buff them / reduce cooldown.

You still have your core "Active" pet that you could rotate. Obviously these can be tied to purpose like Raven (offensive debuff), Eagle (survival), Light (Heals), Lynx (Personal DPS). But you aren't told to swap these around. Infact the lines could promote use of 2+ of these. Say if we just have "Debuff line" and "DPS line". Eagle and Lynx could be red line buffed massively with perks to LM. While Raven and Light are buffed for debuff LM.

DPS
A DPS-oriented Lore-master has some interesting skills and mechanics, but your overall repertoire of damaging skills can sometimes feel quite thin. Are there things you like about the current damage potential at your disposal? What frustrates you when trying to prioritize DPS? Reliance on induction skills? A dependency on tar + catmint raven to maintain high output? Waiting for cooldowns when Burning Embers is already tiered up and Lighting Strike/Storm are on cooldown? What do you like about your core damage rotation? What do you wish you did better?

I dont mind the inductions. Specifically the dps skills. I might sound crazy given modern day gaming. But at least the LM has it's limit. That being said, in PvP this is a huge downside. It would be a HUGE QOL to give the Lore-master some kind of cooldown to allow induction on move or a general overview to ensure they're smaller and don't "root you in place" after the induction.

Tar, Warding Lore, add some interesting dynamics to fights to make sure people are fighting in them. But the cooldowns and inductions don't all add up to make it a fun experience. They could both have there inductions removed and usable on the move to make sure optimal positioning and using them is fun. Cooldown/Durations at or over a min just doesn't cut it when many fights you move far too regularly to stay in a place for a minute. In theory, I'd love them to have no cooldown and just replaces previously set (akin to old captain banner) so the lore-master is just managing where he places his goo as the fight moves. But not completely dictating the fights movements, or being caught completely out of the loop.

Catmint could honestly be deleted. It's effects can be tied to a dps skill to make sure the LM thinks about it's own damage instead of being selfless and a weird light armor tank build.

The Ancient Master – Support-first Lore-master
The Ancient Master line is often the de-facto primary trait setup for Lore-masters, but that doesn’t mean it is above reproach. While LMs are primarily sought after in raid groups, instances, and PvP for their support capacity, that doesn’t mean the ‘support-first’ LM has no room for improvement. For those of you who live and breathe yellow-LM, what do you like about the class and the role? What do you wish were different? Are you frustrated by the fact that your long-mez is also your interrupt skill? Does Water-lore-stacking provide you with something to steadily cycle into your skills, or does it feel like too much necessary upkeep? Do you feel like you contribute meaningfully to the group in moments where there are few/no adds to CC or manage? Do you just wish you had a Wizards Lightning skill to reapply your preferred 'Out in the Cold' or 'Playng with Fire' debuffs?

Infuriating line.

Blue and Yellow content for best support. Blue technically has better support thanks to -IncDamage on pets, but it's inconsistant and not required. So all the eggs in one basket to use AncientCraft with minor heals elseware and call it "Best Support" line. Even tho most of it's support can be picked up by blue and red just fine.

The "Meta" of LMs to sit in yellow and do very little but reapply debuffs/buffs creates a void of player skill. The low end LMs buffing low end hunters isn't actually doing much. They would likely have more value doing DPS with the same debuff skills. But obviously, you play for peak, so LM's build this weird setup where there own stats are purely defensive and utility.

I honestly hate it.

All the LMs debuffs could do damage. At least then you would slowly start to be slightly more concerned of your DPS and feel involved in the fight than a cheerleader.

Skills that are QOL but remove mechanics knowledge and skill like Ancient Master could be gone. Just learn to combo skills to spread debuffs. You don't need the skill. It could be somthing more interesting.

Even after all that the light armor lore-master is defensively a mess sporting healer like mitigations but little self survival. There needs to be somthing somewhere to make sure they're not left behind. Especially as the Lore-master is the range AoE burst class. So easy can you dump your entire load to get the aggro of 1 stray and die instantly, so obviously, you build like a tank and then vit stack into boredom.

If you kill pet rotating, yellow lore-masters are going to be twiddling there thumbs a lot. There needs to be some consistently in the class to translate from solo play to group play. Giving the debuffs some damage gives you that translation and then progresses into LMs doing damage skills. If this is an issue for end-game, a yellow line skill to "Mute" debuff damage so they can debuff stunned adds is desirable. But I still think Lore-Masters should do damage, even when debuffing, similar to Burglars and create some parity between the "Support" classes.

Edit: Just wanted to update this top post to note that we are not planning to remove the Support role or identity from the Lore-master. Many of you have expressed that you enjoy playing a support class, and that this is part of a group dynamic that makes LotRO unique.

I'm not against removing yellow line, but that doesn't mean removing support role. The class has 2 roles, it should have 2 lines. But it could (doesn't mean it should) be clear.

I have observed before that the blue trait specialization, the Keeper of Animals, does not seems to have a clearly defined role. Thematically, it’s the ‘pets’ trait line, but what does that mean for your role and priorities? It has a bit of group support, a bit of personal damage, but mostly ends up being used to moderately enhance red or yellow (or for the occasional cheeky flipped version of those two which are essentially the same but with Murder of Crows in lieu of other capstones).

Similar to this reasoning. Blue and Yellow could be merged for the most part. All the best bits and mechanics. Then creating a new "Yellow" to actually be a sub-set of traits that buff the supporting role of the pets or debuffs if red or yellow.

Looping all the way back...

Suggestion:

Blue: Support
Red: DPS
Yellow: Pets

Support is obvious. Fire/Frost lores, spreading debuffs, odd healing, power healing, warding lore, root, stun, all that jazz. But key here is that it's focussed on DEFENSIVE buffs.
Red is the same. Can basically not touch it in this theory.
Yellow becomes mainly about adding mechanics to the loremaster and most importantly, about your "active" and "skill" pets.
- Yellow unlocks many pets to be used as skills
- yellow unlocks Ancient Craft at it's full ability, this skill is equally good in red and yellow
- yellow has a higher priority on offensive debuffs and buffs

This way you can think of the 4 builds
B/r - A survivalist lore-master with group defensive support but able to do some damage
B/y - A Strong supporting lore-master applying both defensive and offensive buffs & debuffs with less focus on it's own damage
R/b - A survivalist dps lore-master who's focus is on its own performance (think PvP, High tier delvings, 3mans)
R/y - A strong dps & dps support with high AoE damage and offensive buffs+debuffs.

Nothing has been lost here in reality even with a line lost. Just you've added 4 viable choices and 2 meta choices.

[Forodir]

First of all, big thanks for engaging us in this effort and getting opinions before setting changes in stone. Highly appreciated.

Let's start with the basics: LM is a class with pets, it's the core of the class and I wouldn't change that.

Also, when doing updates let's take all playstyles into account. Let's not just tune the class to be optimized for current raid configurations. LM should be fun to play in landscape and also have a viable spot in 3 and 6 man instances. E.g. currently it is hard to squeeze in PUG's since the focus is in Tank/DPS/Heal-trinity and LM cannot fill any of those spots naturally.

Back in times I played LM mostly in blue line in landscape. It brought nice survivability and fast skill execution. It also provided nice tools for tactical options when using pet for thread control and splitting group of enemies between pet and yourself. It was like playing WITH you pet as equal companions and defeating enemies together. With removing the +3 level capstone and reducing the DPS+thread from the pets, they don't have much use as companions anymore but are more like cosmetic pets with some debuffs.

In current state, pets are used mostly for their debuffing capabilities. So e.g. when rotating pets in instances, it is not about the pet you pull, it is about the debuff it provides. Some pets provide extra functionality like Bear's thread control (now nerfed) and healing from Spirit. I'm not a hardcore raider and don't utilize pet rotation, but to rotate pets just to get the debuff it provides and dismissing it right away doesn't feel right. I'd like to see one pet per fight approach which we had back in old times when you couldn't resummon the pet during the combat. Pets should provide more value outside just one debuff and you should pick the proper pet for the combat and stick to it, even to the point trying to keep it alive since you cannot resummon it again. Then again we have these pathing problems, where pets get stuck and they can bug otherwise as well so I'm not fully locked on this resumming ban if these bugs couldn't be fixed. Having Return to master available during combat might mitigate the problem, though.

About blue line. I don't like to see blue line removed just for the sake of it. It could co-exist with other lines. Maybe the pets could be enhanced in that line so that DPS capability from the red line would be splitted beween you and the pet where in red line it is just you providing all that DPS. So that would mean having smaller DPS from yourself but pet being able to compensate with increased DPS. So in short, bring back the old blue line.

Outside the pets, I'd like to see LM being able to fill some role outside the support role in instances. The tanking role is probably out of the picture so it's either DPS or healing. Having a DPS role improved would be easier by just ramping up the DPS in general. That could be done by reducing the utility and (de)buffing capabilities from the red line. There is no natural line for healing unless that comes from the yellow line together with buffing but both roles may not be trivial to combine under one line.

Then some random thoughts that I see other people also pointing out:
- If it wasn't obvious from above, please bring back proper thread based tanking for bear
- All the big skills (Lightning-Storm, Ents, Nature's fury) have too long cooldown
- Nature's fury is a nice skill but if the primary target dies early, the AoE part stops also. The AoE part should continue still.
- We have quite a skill bloat, some of them could be combined easily, especially some support line (de)buffs
- Allow more skills to be executed while moving. It doesn't have to be all, but having just one DPS skill while moving is quite limiting. Also some skills root you for too long.
- There could be another interrupt skill and it should also be more immediate
- Corruption removal capability is quite weak

[Mithithil]

The most annoying thing about yellow lore master is these lore debuffs.

The problem is that when using Windlore, only the very 1st effect is distributed, so you often have to use a completely useless fire or lightning skill to make it 2nd or 3rd. Please fix this.

I would also very much like the Pleasant breeze skill to be always available without using the useless gust of wind. Lm support-heal in my understanding, but 2 skills per heal is not enough. Also in this regard, I would like him to have a 5% crit chance in the yellow line

But look at some of those numbers. The power cost and TacMast reductions are...risible. Not worth any effort to get and make no relevant difference. Unless we get the serious power drain option affectring a mob's power cost is pointless and any mob where doing this will matter will always have "enough power". As for -1450 TM, that would not be significant 50 levels ago, should be closer on -145000 and even then that's probably less than a 10% debuff. I know that at end game a lot of it is edge cases where those 5% differences matter, but with morale bloat and the consequential mob damage those edge cases are being marginalised.

Warm up only matters on inductions and for the unbreakable ones the effect will happen anyway, again, this isn't as useful as it could be. A better result would be "Warm Up, temporarily makes any induction breakable". Much more useful and a combination for which to work. A buff on bosses to prevent this working if you must, and then why bother having the skill. +20% on a 5 second induction is a whole second, which if the game is running smoothly...but... It may be better to work with evironment limitations than across them :-)

[Elmagor]

Or, what if you rework Blue to be a dedicated Spec-able Healer role line (Allowing all pets and any changes including spec-able blue traits made to improve them into Standard LM auto-granted), Red a spec-able DPS line, and Yellow a Utility line (Still focused Heavily on Buff/Debuff/CC)

It's more easy to buff red spec to allow LM deal 90% of hunter/champion dps. Blue spec have so many weak traits, or traits working on pet. You just can't rework it this way where LM can replace Mini/RK/Beorning in serious instances. In 3-man with Captain - of course, even on T5. But just imagine LM being only one healer in SV T5, HoR T5 or Sagroth T5. He don't have bubbles, he don't have in-combat rez. Go and try Hrimil T3+ with blue LM, and show us result.

LM not JUST a pet class, you can't make him into Necromancer sort of class when he wasn't dps, LM hybrid support class. You just can't buff his pet side so much what his support side stop being needed in instances. His best side was always CC and debuffs, pets was never relevant in hard content for 16 years.

He need red spec for daily quests/delving missions/T1-T2 content where his debuffs not needed. Why he need blue spec when he have pets in any spec anyway?

When mini lose yellow spec and warden lose yellow spec that wasn't their main trait tree. Doesn't matter like you or not, blue spec wasn't core spec for LM for 15 years, and must be reworked, and yellow spec working fine. Why fix something what wasn't broken, and broke something what working fine for years?

[flamestrom]

LMs don't walk alone, we got a lot of friends on our side, you got that Urchir? We will put your dead face into oblivion! (friends currently unavailable... please hold...)

Dear SSG, let me clarify a few things about different lines purpose from my perspective. A whole game meaning is circling around simple thing - killing mobs (in most ways), and from that point of view all become very clear.

The Blue-Line "identity"...
1 - physical DPS from Pets when a foe immune to the Fire attacks or reflected back any tactical damage ("A Murder of Crows", I'm watching on you, because even the "Shield Wall" can't help me).
2 - Pets get strong attack and defence buffs
3 - Pets get increased agro
4 - Pets get immune to "Knockback" and hold adds in specific point (Sabertooth Cat was the best for me because of AoE auto-attack)
5 - slower but safer DPS on one/multiple targets

The Red-Line identity...
1 - tactical AoE DPS
2 - increased damage
3 - increased magnitudes for critical hits
4 - faster but more dangerous DPS on one/multiple targets

The Yellow-Line identity...
1 - tactical ST DPS
2 - almost all damage dials through the combination of any stun-skill plus Embers with "Injury To Insult" effect (the attempt to compensate low LM's survivability which doesn't work where it really needs - PvMP and Instances)
3 - faster but more dangerous DPS on one target

What would I like to see...
1 - Light-type ST DPS in Yellow-Line
2 - instant cast for "Bane Flare"
3 - instant cast for "Knowledge of Cures"
4 - more base range for "Water-lore"
5 - double the duration time for "Nature's Fury"
6 - less CD for "Big skills"
7 - opportunity to get all word-of-power-DPS-traceries (because all LM's DPS separated between three different types of skills/effects)
8 - opportunity to lower the level of incoming healing on a target
9 - channel duration for main Pet buffs/debuffs to prevent a horrible/clunky/annoying abuse-mechanic
10 - no CD for Pets re-summon (we need a possibility to react on the changed situation)
11 - access to the "Beacon of Hope" in any Line
12 - more survivability for class

What wouldn't I like to see...
1 - The Ancient Master capstone (you, SSG, gave up already at the stage of impossibility to fix the problem with stucked tier 10 mana-share-effect)

Who would I go with in 3-man instance...
Tank with auto-heal / 2 range DPSers with auto-heal

Who would I go with in 6-man instance...
Any Tank / Minstrel / Any range DPSers

Who would I go with in Raid (LM plus Burglar or two Burglars)...
Since most dangerous adds hit in % of your HP, AoE debuff loses almost all meaning. That's why I'd prefer two Burglars with strong DPS and both crutial effects on Boss - double "Enrage" and double "Disable". They can share a mana, they can CC foes, they can use skills in move...

A few thoughts about "Raid LMs"...
1 - these guys need to wait 2 minutes CD skill to root something instead of use 10 seconds CD skill
2 - they got a decent Heal, but they don't have any essences for it, almost all slots filled with Vitality
3 - they have found their calling in Pets-abuse-mechanic, because they don't know what to do except that and a few Dazes
4 - they think they have some rights to broadcast the "right vision" of class down to the gameplay tiers and marginalizing all class (done) (I see such behaviour even in this thread)
5 - some of them thinks that Yellow-line add 4 additional targets for the "Ancient Craft" (the corresponding belief is present in this thread)

What do other classes "know" about us...
1 - "Ancient Craft" skill only in Yellow-Line
2 - low CD for mana-share-skills
3 - almost no Heal
4 - almost no DPS
5 - any Pet could be used for exploit
6 - LM's AoE causes most of the server lags (they own macro doesn't count)

Personal experience...
1 - I did a few times HH t2 as a Red LM. Most people didn't even notice it (it's been a long time since I've enjoyed a Raid)
2 - I really feel sorry for the guy who tried to rotate Pets on Creoth from Spring of the Red Maid instance (his sad image still stands before my eyes)

Final thougts...
People reject what they don't understand well. The part of the responsibility for that is on you SSG. You can change everything drastically and too often. Nobody needs that. Please, at least don't touch debuff access in Red and Blue Lines. Thanks all for reading - have fun!

[Feldanor]

I am delighted that LM is getting looked at for a bit of a revamp.

I am looking at it from a T3/4 raiding stand point, which may explain some of my views.

I love lm as a support and group character. Grouping is why I play the game.

Regarding Yellow.

I wouldn't change much about yellow in its current form. It has a role to do, and it does it well. It's pretty solid as it is. Maybe not perfect, but it excels at aoe debuffing, got some great CC, and some good heals. (I am keeping pets separate for now) The only things I would love to see are a separate, instant interrupt, and a much better corruption removal skill. For a support class we have borderline useless corruption removal skills. I would also possibly like an update to warm up, winter storm debuffs too, as some aren't great. However most of yellow makes LM vital in anything above a t2 raid, so it's definitely in a strong position at the moment.

Regarding Red

In higher tier raids red doesn't really server a purpose. For raiding I run a high MIT's and morale build for survivability useful so find any damage is weak, and mostly there because it looks cool. I definitely agree that red LM needs a buff, but wouldn't want to see it being able to match good champs, hunter or wardens. the tactical class to be too DPS imo should be rk but that's a separate discussion. LM should do nice DPS, but shouldn't be competing with the top DPS classes as it will/should always have a vital spot in any raid or group content.

Regarding Blue and pets.

Personally pets at the moment are only there to apply specific buffs. Bear to increase group damage then dismiss and summon raven for fire mit debuff, dismiss then summon lurker for ranged crit. Or other orders. Basically it's boring. And only uses a few pets. I haven't summoned my Lynx or sabertooth in years now! Just remembered we have an eagle too. The point I'm trying to make, badly I'm sure, is that blue line should be all about the pets.

Make it a utility like and give each pet a point. Someone earlier suggested give each pet a passive like captain pets. Spirit pet does a percent heal over time, bear boost raid MIT's, lynx boost raid dps and so on. I think it's important these buffs apply to the raid, not just fellowship, as one of lms vital roles is in raids but if you make it fellowship only, most the buffs would be useless. No tank needs more damage or crit really. Blue currently has a great capstone but most of the time you can't use it, as blue has no real use in group content. I would, unpopularity I think, like to see pets have a shared cd when dismissed or killed. This would stop spamming of pets and making you think and focus on which would be best to use. The cd doesn't have to be long, but enough that you can't just spam them. For example the spirit pet cd is way too long. Makes it hard to use unless you know a specific phase that will need it is coming. 15/30s would probably be sufficient.

In all blue should become utility and be all about pets. Boosting their DPS/Healing/Tankiness to reasonable levels. Let bear taunt in all fights again. Universal summon cd would stop that getting spammed. Traits could simply be 5 points into bear boosts raid MIT's by 1% per point used for example.

Summary.

I'm sure not everyone will agree or even like the suggestions above. And that's fine. These are just my opinions on a class I've played a lot this expansion. I think LM is a very strong class. It's heals are very good at the moment, which is why I haven't mentioned them. Its very good and debuffing and cc'ing. Just a few quality of life improvements needed. Corruptions and interrupt. Red needs boosting. I don't know you make LM a continuous dpser. It isn't a line I hugely find useful in the content I enjoy. The biggest area that needs love is blue and pets. Well thought-out changes there would really breath some life into, what is currently, a pretty boring summon skill dismiss rotation for pets ATM.

[-Tanyc-]

I agree with OnnMacMahal that the inductions should stay. The blue/red setup with lynx and crafted traceries made inductions almost disappear already.
The same setup made the Lm a good dps class. I don't remember the exact numbers I got with it few month ago, but they were quite impressive.
The problem is, that a Lm isn't expected to be dps, and it will take a lot (OP dps) to make people perceive it as a dps class.
I personally don't want to see the Lm being the new Fotm dps class. It's fine as it is. It's a supporter.

"In abstract, why shouldn’t a yellow-line burglar be able to fill the ‘support’ role for a group while a Lore-master fills a ‘DPS’ slot?" - this is really scary, NOO, please don't go that way

Yes, pets were not made to be used the way they are now. I don't get what OnnMacMahal means with "(though you can still do it (*the pet skill) twice in quick succession, assuming you have already had the pet out for long enough that its summon cooldown has already elapsed)". Do you want to make the pet to be used like the Trickster burglar skill with maximum 2 properties (like 2 Disables or Provokes) being applied?
The dynamic lore skill you suggest reminds me of burglar's trick/removal options (consume a trick for glee heal, stuns etc.). Same burglar thinking behind this: "Would you support a change that locked more debuff potential behind the Ancient Master specialization, while freeing red-line to deal more direct damage?"

If you consider to delete a trait line and make it passive I would choose the yellow line. I agree that the yellow line is the core of the Lm and it should basically always be usable. That's why the lores are at the top of yellow trait tree. In addition to CC/debuff skills the 2 optional trees could enable the Lm to do more dps in red line or to do more heals with blue line. Blue could be shaped as a Radagast-pet-style healing tree. I guess Sic'em was a try on the Radagast theme before it got removed. Why not have Loyalty and Inner Flame applying for all the group? Flank heals could be made useful here, too.

To sum it all up I don't like the Lm to be "burglarized".

I like the true Lm.
The way it is described here: https://forums.lotro.com/forums/show...e-and-Glossary
(search the site for Fire-lore & The Study of Fire-lore; Deep Lore; Dunedain Learning; 3 red traits changing Ent cd to 2min & LotrD to 15 sec; Healer, Wind-lore, Master of the staff and Harmony with Nature were nice as well)

I may sound like a broken record but those are the things I'd like to see again, sorry.

[Elmagor]

The problem is, that a Lm isn't expected to be dps, and it will take a lot (OP dps) to make people perceive it as a dps class.
I personally don't want to see the Lm being the new Fotm dps class. It's fine as it is. It's a supporter.

Mini and RK supporter too, and still they always overdps LM. When they buff mobs (huge numbers of morale and armor, delving system), LM need to have at least one spec for playing outside of group instances.

[Ethuilir]

I like bohbashum's idea regarding some pets being turned into a 'summon, apply effects, and leave'. I had a similar suggestion for the spirit pet when the aoe heal skill was given a prep time. Pets in general could use a revamp. My concern with the pet system, though, is if the game can handle 'fancy' pet summonings and whatnot without the performance being affected.

Maybe do away with pet skills and just have a separate skill that applies all the pet effects consecutively. This way, players can just have whichever pet they want active while still being able to have the benefits of the other pets. The effects probably could use some consolidation. Appropriate pet VFX and sound for when each effect is applied would be nice. OR have a separate skill that changes effects depending on which pet is active. Then have all pets share a summon cooldown.

I realize this is pretty much what Sic 'Em was in essence, but hopefully the sequential 'summon' is not as performance-heavy as the old simultaneous summon; and this should not be Blue line only as this would be a replacement for pet rotation as a whole.

The problem with this is that there will only be one shared cooldown for all the effects.

- - -

I think no Lore-master spec should be turned into a utility line as each one is too unique in my opinion, and have different fantasies. There are also too many skills. I'd much prefer each spec to be improved, especially Blue and Red. Much more, I'd prefer the focus to be on reworking the pet system first and foremost and then adjust the spec trees accordingly.

[CaerArianrhod]

I agree with OnnMacMahal that the inductions should stay. The blue/red setup with lynx and crafted traceries made inductions almost disappear already.
The same setup made the Lm a good dps class. I don't remember the exact numbers I got with it few month ago, but they were quite impressive.
The problem is, that a Lm isn't expected to be dps, and it will take a lot (OP dps) to make people perceive it as a dps class.
I personally don't want to see the Lm being the new Fotm dps class. It's fine as it is. It's a supporter.

If you have the two traceries 11% + 8%, neither the additionally 5% tracery nor the cat with 10% brings you a benefit (which is then between 0.3 and 0 (null) seconds depending on the skill).

• you would give up 10% tactical damage on the lurker.
• if you really go that path down, it makes Don't Interrupt Me to an obsolete skill
• you are loosing three big skills (Improved Sticky Ground, Natur's Furry, Ents) to get one: Murder of Crows.

When the changes with MoC were made, I tested blue/red, but I never could reach the same DPD as with red/yellow and this is still the case.

I don't like this kind of "this class is DD/tank/support/heal only" mentality (and I am sure I am not alone with that: red guardian, red captain tank or DD warden? ... and so on), albeit I agree with you that each class has a "main role".
But such a main role doesn't mean, that the other line(s) shouldn't be viable.

Yes, pets were not made to be used the way they are now. I don't get what OnnMacMahal means with "(though you can still do it (*the pet skill) twice in quick succession, assuming you have already had the pet out for long enough that its summon cooldown has already elapsed)". Do you want to make the pet to be used like the Trickster burglar skill with maximum 2 properties (like 2 Disables or Provokes) being applied?

It means that you can summon a pet early, so its summoning cool down begins to run. Use then the pet skill later and resummon the pet and being able to use its skill again.
I do that with Nature's Sprit in some instances. It is a timing question. And it always a danger that the pet is killed accidentally before its skill could be used.
This is why I do not like the idea of having a CD on the pet itself, if they stay as they are now.

[Vilan]

I was thinking of how Catmint is great on spirits and ravens and pretty useless on other pets. Here's some alternative ideas, not necessarily all together at once.

Bear
Roaring Challenge becomes AOE
Roaring Challenge applies reflect damage effect on bear
Bear Hug gets +3 sec stun

Eagle
Nobility gives extra ICPR
Sacrifice doesn't apply Survivor debuff on you
Beak Rend also heals you

Cat
Lynx remains in stealth and can Surprise Strike repeatedly
Sabretooth Throat Slash applies 3 sec stun to unflanked mobs

Boggie
Angry Bees adds +miss chance
Root Strike also roots target for 5 sec

[piefiend]

Pets (more than just the Keeper of Animals trait line)
Do you engage with the ‘pet rotation’? If yes, how do you feel about it? Do you like that it adds activity or raises the skill ceiling, or do you find it overwhelming or even tedious?
-------------------

I used this line the most because I tend to play solo and I like being able to use my animal friend as part of my DPS or tanking abilities. I tend to use the sneak kitty and the bear. I don't use the other much because I rarely group with other players. I like how LOTRO makes the pet actually be useful. One of the reasons I don't play FF14 is because the Summoner's early game pet is basically just window dressing. It's lame and doesn't feel like a part of you. I've fake never forgiven LOTRO for nerfing the "pocket bear" after the last LOTRO beta. I miss pocket bear who could hold aggro. I don't like playing with others and I really enjoy having my bear tank and then I'm able to do things.


DPS
A DPS-oriented Lore-master has some interesting skills and mechanics, but your overall repertoire of damaging skills can sometimes feel quite thin. Are there things you like about the current damage potential at your disposal? What frustrates you when trying to prioritize DPS? Reliance on induction skills? A dependency on tar + catmint raven to maintain high output? Waiting for cooldowns when Burning Embers is already tiered up and Lighting Strike/Storm are on cooldown? What do you like about your core damage rotation? What do you wish you did better?

--------------------

I don't like this line that much but it would be more interesting if our DPS increased enough to make the playstyle feel different. What I don't like is there are many attacks that do relatively the same thing. Again, I don't raid or group much so I'm just attacking normal mobs or signatures is my thing. I see the redline because able to AOE well and have increase DPS. I would be ok with the pet being window dressing in this lin and that the pet should be secondary and maybe even disappears because the energy goes to you in this line.

The Ancient Master – Support-first Lore-master
The Ancient Master line is often the de-facto primary trait setup for Lore-masters, but that doesn’t mean it is above reproach. While LMs are primarily sought after in raid groups, instances, and PvP for their support capacity, that doesn’t mean the ‘support-first’ LM has no room for improvement. For those of you who live and breathe yellow-LM, what do you like about the class and the role? What do you wish were different? Are you frustrated by the fact that your long-mez is also your interrupt skill? Does Water-lore-stacking provide you with something to steadily cycle into your skills, or does it feel like too much necessary upkeep? Do you feel like you contribute meaningfully to the group in moments where there are few/no adds to CC or manage? Do you just wish you had a Wizards Lightning skill to reapply your preferred 'Out in the Cold' or 'Playng with Fire' debuffs?

-------------
I don't play this line. Too many buttons. Debuffs aren't that useful with normal mobs and signatures. I wish they did DOTs too and then I'd look at them more. I'm sure it's a great group support class and that seems fine. I just want the ability to have a pocket bear back on normals and signatures again.

[Dranak123]

ok...is it the case that OnnMacMahol is fishing (with respect) for justification to do a number on LM's or are they being unduly influenced by 'raid robots; ?
why is it that i can do more short dps in blue than red on targets under 10 million as given by combat analysis.? is it because you dont know blue or i dont know red ?

[Merlinous1]

Hi everyone, I’d like to kick off a conversation about Lore-masters. Lore-masters (along with yellow-line Burglars) have long filled a unique 'support' function in role and group composition, as evidenced by the dominance of the yellow ‘Ancient Master’ line. However, ‘support’ can mean different things to different players or in difference contexts, and the Ancient Master is only one of three possible trait lines available to Lore-masters. So let’s start talking about Lore-masters: what the class does well, what things bug you, and what you might feel needs a bit of improvement. I’m also going to post some preliminary thoughts and questions below about specific aspects of the class, including pets, DPS skills and ability, and support-primary skills and mechanics, to help guide the discussion.



Pets (more than just the Keeper of Animals trait line)
Do you engage with the ‘pet rotation’? If yes, how do you feel about it? Do you like that it adds activity or raises the skill ceiling, or do you find it overwhelming or even tedious?

Do you find yourself using different pets in different circumstances? Do you feel like your pets actively contribute to your gameplay and your Lore-master fantasy? Do you have opportunities to use the pets you like, stylistically? Or do mostly find yourself locked into a few types, either statically or in a constant ‘pet rotation’ (ie: Catmint raven, boglurker, bear).

Some of you may have guessed at this, but we’re eyeing some changes to pets similar to the changes made to captain pets in U35. Primarily, that would mean a pet summoning cooldown, which would limit your ability to use any given pet skill repeatedly (ie: bypassing the pet skill cooldowns by dismissing and resummoning the pet itself). Like captain heralds, this would still allow you to immediately resummon a pet that you have had out for a while (long enough for its cooldown time to fully elapse) but it would prevent you from using pet skills more than twice in a row without waiting for either the individual skill’s cooldown or the pet summoning cooldown.



DPS
A DPS-oriented Lore-master has some interesting skills and mechanics, but your overall repertoire of damaging skills can sometimes feel quite thin. Are there things you like about the current damage potential at your disposal? What frustrates you when trying to prioritize DPS? Reliance on induction skills? A dependency on tar + catmint raven to maintain high output? Waiting for cooldowns when Burning Embers is already tiered up and Lighting Strike/Storm are on cooldown? What do you like about your core damage rotation? What do you wish you did better?



The Ancient Master – Support-first Lore-master
The Ancient Master line is often the de-facto primary trait setup for Lore-masters, but that doesn’t mean it is above reproach. While LMs are primarily sought after in raid groups, instances, and PvP for their support capacity, that doesn’t mean the ‘support-first’ LM has no room for improvement. For those of you who live and breathe yellow-LM, what do you like about the class and the role? What do you wish were different? Are you frustrated by the fact that your long-mez is also your interrupt skill? Does Water-lore-stacking provide you with something to steadily cycle into your skills, or does it feel like too much necessary upkeep? Do you feel like you contribute meaningfully to the group in moments where there are few/no adds to CC or manage? Do you just wish you had a Wizards Lightning skill to reapply your preferred 'Out in the Cold' or 'Playng with Fire' debuffs?

DPS LM- Would love less induction times. I want to see LM be some viable DPS in runs and not be slowed down by numerous inductions. Side note- I want more lightning and even Arcane type magic. I know we are very nature based but still would be nice to see some additional spells as we havent seen anything really new/change in a while. Same for all 3 lines of LM really.

Yellow LM-I think we are VERY valuable to a group but things could be better. I want to see my interrupt skill be different than my mez spell. Wizards lightning skill? please elaborate as that sounds interesting. Water lore is manageable if its needed but I am open to changes. would like to see if we can offer any other group buffs vs mostly debuffs to mobs.

OVERALL LM- I am rather happy with LM but I would like to see 1 thing added and it is MINOR. Illuminating your staff and (more likely) walking with it when you go into walk mode.

[Merlinous1]

On trait-lines, specializations, and group roles:

I have observed before that the blue trait specialization, the Keeper of Animals, does not seems to have a clearly defined role. Thematically, it’s the ‘pets’ trait line, but what does that mean for your role and priorities? It has a bit of group support, a bit of personal damage, but mostly ends up being used to moderately enhance red or yellow (or for the occasional cheeky flipped version of those two which are essentially the same but with Murder of Crows in lieu of other capstones).

For this reason, I have floated the possibility of the blue ‘Keeper of Animals’ tree becoming a passive trait tree. Though a number of players have argued that the ‘Ancient Master’ line, being the ‘core’ identity of the class should become passive instead, and at least one player has argued that the ‘Keeper of Animals’ tree should remain a specialization but provide the benefits of a red captain, acting as an alternative choice for offensive group support.

Keep in mind, it’s not a guarantee that any line would become passive in an eventual Lore-master revamp, but feel free to add your thoughts on the matter in this thread.

Keep Yellow Line. KEEP KEEP KEEP. Red of course KEEP. Blue makes sense to become the passive/buff line for the other 2 trees.

[MythicDude]

Thanks so much for finally looking at a very forgotten (in terms of functionality in todays raids and pvp) class. The LM is now and 16 years later has remained my very favorite toon to play.

My recommendations are simple:

In BLUE.... being all about pets, make those pets REALLY good. I mean REALLY REALLY good. The LM should be controlling pets. Those pets should be instant to cast with the cd's on the pets skills virtually non-exisitent, and the damage from any pet (sans the light) should be on par mid-range damage with health appropriate for doing such a job.

Yellow..... this should be all about cc, and REALLY good CC. Roots should root several targets with break chances lowered considerably. Stuns should last longer than they do, bane flares shouldn't have long cd's. Debuffs are actually okay, but durations should be longer and debuff circles should be expandable like the red line has with ring of fire so the debuff radius is larger. This would help with fights that are constantly needing to move. Same thing with Tar.
Heals need to be on par with an RK/Mini in Yellow so there's an option there. Pets in this line should be as they are now though because the LM should be controlling the fight, not relying on pets or the actual LM.

Red... This is NATURES FURY....... it should really be that then. The skills are called what they should be (lightning storm, ring of fire, burning embers, light of the rising dawn, etc.) but the damage they do is certainly not showing the fury of nature.
Based on previous statements by Orion we were all under the impression that there would be two high DPS classes and the rest would all be on par with each other. That has yet to happen and RED LM's remain VERY VERY far down the chain with regards to sustainable DPS. It is because of this that in LM's are relegated to yellow for raids, and seldom if ever sought out as a first choice for DPS.
It would be great to have LM's truly wield the power of nature with sustainable damage on par with RK's or DPS'ing mini's. Pets would be either not an option, or a basically useless like they are now.

This way, a raid could fill with a yellow lm that's controlling things, a blue that's fighting with potent pets, and a red that is actually doing real damage. That would be three roles to choose from and..... gives raid leaders options to fill 12 , 6 and 3 man fights with players that they simply can't do right now.


Another thing with RED LM's or really any LM build, but I say red, because it's the closest to dps you can get. MOBILITY!!!!!! Virtually everything a LM does regardless of trait line is done standing still and with craaaaaaazy long inductions. As the game has matured, the speed in which things are done as well as moving around in a fight (pve or pvp) is ESSENTIAL to survival. As such, there should be a modification similar to how RK's have high dps (fire), but no movement, or movement at the cost of potency (lightning).
I'm not suggesting that lm's should have a lighting/light build and another fire build.... that would be redundant. What I'm suggesting is that standing still to execute a skill should give AMAZING results in that skills execution...... For instance, sticky gourd should be doing similar damage to say a hunters reign of arrows..... Howerver, if the LM uses that same skill on the move, it should do what it's doing now (which isn't much in relative terms)

Lastly, inductions and cd's........ if red is truely suppose to be about damage, there needs to be faster inductions (moving or not) and reduce some cd's on some skills (5 minutes for ents go to war is just silly in the current fight configurations)

I've personally been asking for RED lm changes for many many years now, and can't tell you how appreciative I am that someone is finally listening.

LM is fun, but it could be REALLY run if there is a very clear distinction in the three roles versus what they are now. This will also have the LM playable solo in PVP which is not something done much given the severe handicaps standing still, and having very looooooooong inductions has in an environment that nothings stands still in.

Thanks so much for listening!!!!

[Jula]

I just wanted to start this by saying the Loremaster is 100% my favourite class and the one I started playing LOTRO with - I love the pure Support focus instead of tank/healer/DPS. Please don't change the core of the class!
There is a lot of content here already so just a few thoughts. Some of them are inspired by a sense of nostalgia for the pre-trait tree LM I started out on:

1) Its great that the LM has such a wide and varied toolkit and I wouldn't want that to change. Its very important to be able to switch on the fly to respond to circumstances whether that is a bit of healing, damage, debuffing, CC or being able to use a bear to tank a boss while the actual tank is rezzed. However, we do have an awful lot of skills and very full bars. Adding Wizards Frost, for example, seemed an odd design decision which I assume was made to give a reliable frost damage skill to upgrade Fire Lore and Frost Lore. As others have said, the Playing with Fire and Out in the Cold mechanics are a bit clunky and in some cases very underwhelming anyway and most people pay little attention. Maybe rethinking the mechanic was a better solution to this problem? Overall, some consolidation of the less "iconic" LM skills may be appropriate. I for one would not miss Pleasant Breeze and there are other examples.
2) You've asked about Pet Skills and rotation. Essentially people are using Pets as a configurable extra sets of skills. So maybe just give us that - some kind of bonus skill or skills based on the pet out. That could have a shared cooldown to stop rapidly cycling through pets to spam skills if thats a worry. Or you could also only allow combat resummoning of the selected pet so we can't swop pets mid fight but don't lose utility if a pet dies. Maybe then we could get our proper Bear Taunt back? NB Blue could get some bonus here like extra or better pet skills (which might allow you to remove catmint?) - maybe even a second pet or the ability to combat summon different pets. You'd need to try and make all of the pets valuable with skills that offer more than just a trivial amount of pet damage. There should be more than one "best option" like the Raven fire mit debuff but a choice depending on circumstances. In summary, Pets should do more than just be a configurable sets of skills to cycle through beyond level 70-ish. Better DPS or some meaningful customisation of our skills or stats based on the pet being out (like the Raven Tactical Mit buff) could be considered.
3) If wanting to focus on 2 not 3 main trait lines, I could see an argument for making Blue and Yellow the main trait lines and Red the bonus as its always nice to boost DPS but I don't see this as our primary role. Yellow could focus on debuffs and CC, Blue on offhealing (enough to do 3 mans say) and buffing Pets (NB I consider Fellowship members to be unruly and wilful Pets that rarely do as told so Blue could have meaningful fellowship wide buffs). I've been here long enough to recall that our better heals were historically in Blue not Yellow - i.e. like it was pre Helms Deep when Healer and Beacon of Hope were Blue Keeper of Animals traits.
4) I miss having a reliable way to apply Ranged damage debuffs. Wind Lore used to do this. I miss Herb Lore and Warding Circles outside of Yellow. I also miss getting Storm Lore, Fire Lore and Frost Lore which I consider core to the class by default so always trait for these in Yellow under every circumstance.
5) I miss having access to the Eagle outside of traiting Blue. It being a Blue trait I could get to in Red or Yellow was fine. The Eagle used to be obtainable by everyone via a Legendary trait and is cool. It used to do interrupts, flank well and the self rezz was neat. It could stand to be a bit better so it becomes an option alongside Bear and Raven. NB It used to be that the Bog Lurker was the Blue only pet, so I'd happily see that boosted and made Blue only if you feel Blue needs a unique pet.
6) I miss flanking being a meaningful mechanic especially flank healing. Its still there but its not very significant. I miss being able to do meaningful melee damage with staff skills
7) I would like a way to get an in-combat rezz. It doesn't need to be very good. Or available in every trait line. But I'd like it.
8) Lightning Storm on a bunch of mobs is the coolest thing in LOTRO by far. Especially the sound effect. I would give up a number of the newer red line skills like Natures Fury to be able to do this more often. While you are at it, I'd like to use Ents more too and not just as a big stun. It would also be nice to have Ents available to all LMs too as this also was obtainable pre trait trees via a Legendary trait but I can live with the current setup.

[Loox]

My keeper of Animals Lynx @ level 140: scored a critical hit with Savage Bleed on the Crystalline Cold-drake for 1,675 Beleriand damage to Morale
I guess I'm happy it was a crit hit. :~