The beards on female humans is a symbolic update that heralds huge changes

[znul]

LOTRO has always been very unique and specific from the very beginning, since Turbine made the controversial decision to follow the lore from the books to a great detail and ignore any changes that Peter Jackson made in the movies. Ever since, LOTRO has always been known for being as true to Tolkien's lore as fan fiction can get, and for being a specific game targeting a specific audience, Tolkien fans who want a mid-fantasy game without any sexual themes or gore and with mostly family-friendly content.

But recently, they have been trying to shift the target audience towards today's youth, the same audience that's the target of Rings of Power. It can be seen in many recent updates - this human update was only one of the many changes. In the recent 3 years there have been signs of the devs trying to adapt the game to today's youth - a good example is the new satellite maps which replace the old good stylish maps with the inaccuracies specific to early medieval maps, the increased slots in quest tracker, or the class balancing that changed the rotation all rune-keepers had been used to for over a decade. Also they changed the voice of Tom Bombadil in the Old Forest, meaning the consistency of voice experienced by new players was more important than the experience and nostalgia of existing players.

But the beards on human females are a symbolic change that makes it clear the devs no longer want to stay true to Tolkien's lore, and that they want to follow the same direction all games follow these days. It started with bearded women, but soon nudity and gore will follow - we already got big muscle males and Tomb Raider females, and from there bare chest is only a matter of time. We'll also get tons of cosmetic toys like modern World of Warcraft, and the game will become like any other MMORPG, with the same toxic playerbase, real world politics on world chat, insane gearscore requirements for dungeons, insults and kicks when someone's not doing enough DPS, and so on.

Therefore we ask that the devs stop the change train and reverse the human customisation update and rune-keeper shock rotation and give us option for the old maps, and that LOTRO stays LOTRO. Or even better, release LOTRO Classic with proper per-patch progression - there was a private server called Echoes of Angmar which ran on a pre-Moria patch and was quite popular before it closed, and now after the last update it would surely be even more popular. All hope lies in either restoring LOTRO to its former glory, or in LOTRO Classic - and, as my friend said, hope is not in vain.

[DavidmeetHal]

But the beards on human females are a symbolic change that makes it clear the devs no longer want to stay true to Tolkien's lore, and that they want to follow the same direction all games follow these days. It started with bearded women, but soon nudity and gore will follow - we already got big muscle males and Tomb Raider females, and from there bare chest is only a matter of time. We'll also get tons of cosmetic toys like modern World of Warcraft, and the game will become like any other MMORPG, with the same toxic playerbase, real world politics on world chat, insane gearscore requirements for dungeons, insults and kicks when someone's not doing enough DPS, and so on.

.

I'll be honest, I have the same concerns.

[TesalionLortus]

a good example is the new satellite maps
the increased slots in quest tracker

These are literally just actual improvements and satellite maps are just useful/more time respectful, just modern age of gaming thing, nothing to do with any youth in particular, you don't have to be new gen youth to appreciate that. Frankly, these two represent what we should be getting more of, rather than mostly useless/very subtle additions we seem to be getting all the time and their pace of updating the maps is very slowpoke to begin with.

Also they changed the voice of Tom Bombadil in the Old Forest, meaning the consistency of voice experienced by new players was more important than the experience and nostalgia of existing players.

Wait, when did that happen and which one is new/old? I doubt they care about voice consistency since they would have to change a lot of iconic characters... some more iconic than Tom even. Maybe some rights issues with the old voice?

But the beards on human females are a symbolic change that makes it clear the devs no longer want to stay true to Tolkien's lore, and that they want to follow the same direction all games follow these days. It started with bearded women, but soon nudity and gore will follow - we already got big muscle males and Tomb Raider females, and from there bare chest is only a matter of time. We'll also get tons of cosmetic toys like modern World of Warcraft, and the game will become like any other MMORPG, with the same toxic playerbase, real world politics on world chat, insane gearscore requirements for dungeons, insults and kicks when someone's not doing enough DPS, and so on.

The only legit concern but even then I wouldn't fear any gore, come on, how do you even imagine that. Or nudity, lol, on these old looking models? (Because it's not like the update has changed that in any significant way...). But yeah, they better focus on actually improving the game, don't play mobile game tactics but nothing really changes, or try to imitate wow which they really should do less of (not like wow is the only mmo out there, plus is nothing like lotro in style/gameplay priorities, and lotro should think more out of the box and try to take advantage of its unique appeal)

[Mithithil]

>>>since Turbine made the controversial decision to follow the lore from the books to a great detail<<<

I'm not of the opinion that was controversial.

Following anything suggested by TROP may well end as badly as TROP seems to be doing.

Sticking to Lore is in fact a USP that no other game can offer by comparison, even when they bend stuff for play reasons such as so many Hobbits wanting to go on an adventure.

[TesalionLortus]

Sticking to Lore is in fact a USP that no other game can offer by comparison, even when they bend stuff for play reasons such as so many Hobbits wanting to go on an adventure.

The recent move can be just more of "bending stuff for play reasons" to make people "feel represented," for all we know, and not indicative of anything more to come. Except it doesn't work without any lore excuses offered, like at least through some origins, and not with these highly specific hairstyles alone... which frankly make some people feel excluded in this update :P They really handled this one so awfully.

[choon_blaze]

And the irony is while they are trying to cater to the "youth", mmorpg is a genre gen-z players don't partake in. Lotro's average player age is 34-ish. If trying to appeal to gen-z was their goal, it will backfire on them with flying colors. It's the same reason why RoP has a very mediocre rating on IMDB. It just did not work. It will not work here either.

[Silmenande]

I only have meet one person who did not start playing this game because of Tolkien works, and they happily went to learn about that after.
While I am pretty sure this does not come from the devs but from the people in charge of the money, the delicate balance between running a business and staying true to the core of it's origin, has lately been tossed out of the window.
Same old ridiculous approach to an audience that has proven to fail to sustain a project over and over; entice people who loved the movies, the books, and the overall concept of Middle Earth?
They stay for good.
Cater to someone who wants to make a dark skinned, bearded Eorling female?
They will come for the novelty, stay a bit to trigger people, then just walk away like they did on that empty shell of a streaming series.

I get the changes to mechanics and the package presentation are a must, though they tend to conflict with nostalgia, but can't help to question the line of thought of the executive that green lighted this thing.
Still hoping it was just a graphical mistake on a barely tested update, and that the update in general is a spearhead for a future incorporation of actual origins to pick like Harad and Rhûn, and bearded Dwarven females, which would be great to roleplay.

And for the (thankfully) small crowd that will start cackling the word that starts with r (though they would call Christopher John Reuel Tolkien the same so it's kind of an honor)

-Middle Earth is a mythological construct, not the real world. (And is a ridiculous concept even in the real world, since we are all the same species with minor adaptive adjustments to our thousands of years living under specific environmental conditions.)

-Middle Earth is racist as heck, having actual different sentient species, some Dwarves don't like Elves, some Elves don't like Dwarves, some people in both species dislike Humans, some Humans don't like Elves or Dwarves at all, and most everyone likes Hobbitses and dislikes Orcs.

[xusia]

Therefore we ask that the devs stop the change train and reverse the human customisation update and rune-keeper shock rotation and give us option for the old maps, and that LOTRO stays LOTRO. Or even better, release LOTRO Classic with proper per-patch progression - there was a private server called Echoes of Angmar which ran on a pre-Moria patch and was quite popular before it closed, and now after the last update it would surely be even more popular. All hope lies in either restoring LOTRO to its former glory, or in LOTRO Classic - and, as my friend said, hope is not in vain.

Representation, representation, representation. That's what its all about. People from all walks of life want to see themselves in Middle-earth, irrespective of canon or lore.

LOTRO is a commercial undertaking and as such is not going to ignore potential new customers over "lore" concerns of some existing players.

Compromise is inevitable when you play a product owned by someone else.

[Arnenna]

Do we really need another thread on this? There are plenty of others.

I've kept my opinion on it out of the threads, and for good reason - if I don't like it, I can "choose" not to use it, or look at it. Just like I can totally bypass/ignore a player fish-slapping everyone to oblivion. If I like it, I can "choose" to use it and look at it.

The forum is a drag at the moment, the first page of GD is full of this topic, hence, I'm not here much. It's uncomfortable reading.

and btw, I'm about as far away from today's youth as it gets.

I'm not part of "we."

[Radhruin_EU]

Compromise is inevitable when you play a product owned by someone else.

You can't call something a compromise when it's entirely one-sided and all such 'compromises' only ever go one way.

Edit: and they all add up, and they're getting more marked as they go.

[Halphast]

new satellite maps
increased slots in quest tracker
class balancing that changed the rotation all rune-keepers
changed the voice of Tom Bombadil

But the beards on human females are a symbolic change
It started with bearded women, but soon nudity and gore will follow

This person basically took their own personal gripes about changes to the game and superimposed those gripes onto a doomsday timeline, evidence of the deterioration of the value of the game- supposedly leading to cataclysmic ruin. In reality these things are not related. They're not signs of the end, they're not evidence that the devs are heading in a particular "gen z" direction-- they're just decisions the OP disagrees with. I disagree with a few of those changes too, but it's a mistake to take them so personally and fit them into a prophecy of the downfall of LotRO.

The last argument, that beard options being available to female humans is going to lead to nudity and gore, is an illogical "slippery slope" argument. You don't like the beards- I don't either but they're optional. Beards are not related to gore nor nudity. An argument could have been made long ago that "sexy" merrevail were an actual baby-step towards nudity from previous monsters-- but it didn't continue, and nudity was not the result. Slippery slope averted. Beards are completely unrelated.

[elderlygamer]

I didn't realize people who play female characters were forced to put beards on their characters.

[mr_underfoot]

nothing to see here, folks. just more of the same people trying to trojan horse their politics into the forum under the guise of lore concerns...

[Fadil]

But the beards on human females are a symbolic change that makes it clear the devs no longer want to stay true to Tolkien's lore

We didnt need a new thread on this subject, where the same handful of posters complain and speculate about things.
The change doesnt effect me, since I havent seen a single female player with beard since the update went live.
And if I did see one, I wouldnt care.
Tbh: inclusion and tolerance are more in accordance with Tolkien's writing than all the intolerance we see on these mbs from a handful of people.
Tell me you read Tolkien, without ever understanding a word he wrote.

[xusia]

You can't call something a compromise when it's entirely one-sided and all such 'compromises' only ever go one way.

Edit: and they all add up, and they're getting more marked as they go.

Okay, replace compromise with a business concession. In fact that is a more apt summation of the situation.

A marketing decision has been made to pursue one type of customer over another. It is down to you to decide whether you wish to continue playing. But you cannot please both groups and SSG are certainly not going roll back on what will be perceived to be a diversity and inclusion issue.

I personally am quite capable of accommodating such changes. I love Tolkien's lore but support the nature and importance of representation. If I want faithful canon I read the books. LOTRO after all is a commercial product and not a community service dedicate to maintaining lore purity. That boat sailed when the game launched with playable hobbits

On a side note. I try to treat discussion such as this in good faith. IE This is lore purists worrying over changes for canonical reasons. However, threads such as this always smack of a "dog whistle" politics with some objectors are using a lore debate as cover for their prejudice.

[xusia]

Hey Znul, you're wasting your time and both you and I know it. SSG will not rollback these changes.

So why keep arguing? Do you need to be acknowledged as right? What are you hoping to achieve?

Do you really not like getting your own way? Or is this just a case of "not liking certain things"?

There comes a point with these sorts of thread when they cease to achieve anything meaningful with regard for debate and reflection and simply become a vehicle for unpleasantness.

Oh and as for "keep politics out of video games", don't be so naïve. Such a statement itself is a political statement and this argument was debunked decades ago.

Blimey MMO forums really are circular in their debates. I'm sure we covered all this 5, 10 15 years ago.

[Chaltier]

The addition of female beards is the reason I haven't been able to bring myself to log in lately; scrolled through the barber's new options once and that was it.

This was an amazing game, largely in line with Tolkien's lore with a few questionable decisions here and there, but at least before I knew I could log in and be immersed in Middle Earth without the slightest reference to hotly debated political topics Tolkien never would have dreamed of, but that appears to be over now. The devs trying to shoehorn their modern politics into LotRO is the final nail in the coffin for me.

Will keep an eye on it to see if it gets changed, but since they didn't even give us an opt-out for the horrendous GPS-style new maps I doubt we'll get any such thing here.

[Radhruin_EU]

they're not evidence that the devs are heading in a particular "gen z" direction

The OP did get carried away but what you said right here: au contraire, I think the game will be heading that way. Why is this being changed now, 16 years into the game's life? That's a long time, what's changed in the game's potential audience since then? Gen Z. And hence, quite likely, the specific things they've chosen to change. It's the "not your dad's Middle-earth" thing, like we saw with 'Rings of Power'.

[paintpixie]

I think this will be interesting to observe out of curiosity to see whether an mmo might be better off updating their game over a very long period of time, or sunsetting it and making a new one. I'm pretty sure you can still play the original Guild Wars game, but GW2 is a better game, and I think it was the right choice to make a new game in that case. I think WoW, on the other hand, has gone through major graphics overhauls (and other overhauls, most definitely) over the years. Now, this game is no WoW. (I've never played WoW, but that is THE mmo and compared to LotRO, they can probably better retain and attract players just from name recognition alone.)

Online games have to keep up with the times. They cannot just let themselves get older and wait to die along with their playerbase. I'm not even talking merely graphics. This game would not run if they didn't tweak the backend, behind-the-scenes stuff to keep up with modern technology. And the fact is, nobody wants to come and play an old, dated-looking video game when they have the option of playing one of many AAA mmos either.

I realize it's difficult for some players to deal with changes. Change IS hard. Especially when it's something you're used to, something you've been used to for many years. Sometimes those changes cause players to leave, sometimes they attract new ones, and a game company's job is to balance that. I've personally left games when changes have been too much for me, or when the game was no longer what it was. That's okay, too. Gaming is constantly changing. I mean, even with a lack of games being released to be played off-line, or special editions of games only including digital goods rather than actual, physical things WORTH paying extra for...

This thread says more about you than it does about the game. Obviously, the game should be updating itself. It has to be competitive to survive. I don't think it has anything to do with "today's youth". "Today's youth" wasn't watching Rings of Power. I don't think anybody did. X'D
But they do have to stay alive. Yes, they have a lot of stupid cosmetics, pets, emotes, etc now. But that's what people spend money on, young and old.

Anyway, I'm not trying to come to their defense or anything. I just think it will be interesting to watch what happens.

[Radhruin_EU]

I personally am quite capable of accommodating such changes. I love Tolkien's lore but support the nature and importance of representation. If I want faithful canon I read the books. LOTRO after all is a commercial product and not a community service dedicate to maintaining lore purity. That boat sailed when the game launched with playable hobbits

On a side note. I try to treat discussion such as this in good faith. IE This is lore purists worrying over changes for canonical reasons.

Talking about 'lore purity' and 'purists' isn't really in good faith. There are no such purists here: LOTRO would be anathema to a real purist, and was from day one. As for the rest, that's a thought-terminating cliché: just because it's a commercial product doesn't put the changes it makes beyond critique, and it's not as if breaking one bit of lore (especially one that was demonstrably necessary for commercial reasons right from the start, like playable hoobits) means that everything else is therefore up for grabs or that being bothered by anything that gets changed makes you a purist. Especially when they start changing things in the game itself that have been that way for more than a decade and a half.

[Vilan]

Wait, when did that happen and which one is new/old? I doubt they care about voice consistency since they would have to change a lot of iconic characters... some more iconic than Tom even. Maybe some rights issues with the old voice?

When the Woe of the Willow instance came out a couple years ago, Tom Bombadil is one of the NPCs in it and the voice actor was different than the one they used back in the day. They also went back and replaced the original voice actor's lines with the new one, so if you talk to Tom in his house on the landscape now you'll hear him with the new voice actor. Not sure why. As you said, there are other examples of inconsistent voice actors, like Hrimil in Anvil vs Hiddenhoard.

[Elmagor]

When the Woe of the Willow instance came out a couple years ago, Tom Bombadil is one of the NPCs in it and the voice actor was different than the one they used back in the day. They also went back and replaced the original voice actor's lines with the new one, so if you talk to Tom in his house on the landscape now you'll hear him with the new voice actor. Not sure why. As you said, there are other examples of inconsistent voice actors, like Hrimil in Anvil vs Hiddenhoard.

It's understandable because same actor can't be available for 15 years or his voice can change

[Seregthol]

The forum is a drag at the moment...

Ah, the unintended irony of this comment with regards to the controversy at hand.

[Ratharim]

without any [...] gore and with mostly family-friendly content

Are we playing the same game? 5 meters high human skull pyramids? Torture chambers? Deformed, unnamed monstrosities from below Moria? Humanoids with their brains overgrown by fungal parasites? Plague infested plains? Humans entrapped alive in giant spider cocoons? Chopped human carcasses and remains covering the floors around altars of Sauron? Carts full of corpses? Humans and elves left to die from the starvation in hanging cages? And many, many other examples.
You should go outside of Shire cause you clearly don't know the game world.

Therefore we ask that the devs stop the change train and reverse the human customisation update and rune-keeper shock rotation and give us option for the old maps, and that LOTRO stays LOTRO. Or even better, release LOTRO Classic with proper per-patch progression - there was a private server called Echoes of Angmar which ran on a pre-Moria patch and was quite popular before it closed, and now after the last update it would surely be even more popular. All hope lies in either restoring LOTRO to its former glory, or in LOTRO Classic - and, as my friend said, hope is not in vain.

This is not gonna happen. Sure, Blizzard was able to do this, but at the point of WoW classic launch they had millions of paid subscribers. LotRO has lass than 10K concurrent players counting all servers and around 30-40K active players monthly, large part of this are probably F2P. There is no budget to maintain two versions of the game - classic code would have to be maintained with security patches, compatibility fixes, etc. It's not like they can roll a build from 2007 on the servers just like that. The main branch is screaming for fixes and cleanup of remnants of no longer supported features, you want staff to be divided even further? Expectation beyond ridiculous.

[Elmagor]

At least they have some beard related changes in next update