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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by TesalionLortus View Post
    That's a strange argument to make because for all purposes they look how they look, which wouldn't entail a female-like avatar, and with increased customization controls you could theoretically reflect it on the male one somewhat. That's basically what it means to roleplay in games. Even when you don't particularly care you still find yourself roleplaying, that's the thing. Nevermind Middle-earth is a little bit like "history" and it was presented that way, the way Tolkien envisioned it. Should we also have outright historical settings that try to portray things that were not possible and frame them as historical, so an outright lie and trying to rewrite reality itself? (I don't think so... that's bonkers, although that's already happening btw, in some cases - so very worrying).
    There is nothing strange about it. What? You've never seen a man that looks a little feminine out in the real world? Where you hiding? Have you travelled at all? True, the vast majority of males look manly (particularly in the Western World), but not all do. Can't exclude them.
    Sometimes, no matter how hard you look, there is no best light.


  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    There is nothing strange about it. What? You've never seen a man that looks a little feminine out in the real world? Where you hiding? Have you travelled at all? True, the vast majority of males look manly (particularly in the Western World), but not all do. Can't exclude them.
    It's not that. It's what I said. This could have been reflected even better thanks to new sliders, assuming there were even more sliders to customize the way bodies of males appear (and females too, special attention on breasts there, it's silly all females have them in the same sizes).

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Who said anything about new players? Not me, not SSG in their announcement either. Read it again . . . .

    LOTRO is celebrating the uniqueness of every player!! Nope, no mention of new players there.

    This thread isn't about the lack of game advertising, I think most players would agree with you that needs improving. It's off topic here though and would make no difference to the conversation even if it weren't.

    No idea why the changes are coming now. Nobody does, except SSG. Could be something as simple as they wish to be more inclusive, or could be something far more pressing, such as a compliance issue. Its all guesswork, because only they know why. Everything else is speculation. Things have changed in the last 15 years, the world has changed in the last 15 years. People better catch up with it.

    I'm genuinely happy for you that you can create your character in Middle-earth to reflect yourself, and in a way that you're happy with. Its also great that you have had the freedom to do that for the last 15 years. It's also great that many other players can now do the same.
    How they celebrating the uniqueness of every player with screwing about how OUR character look? We already unique, thanks for mother nature. Our characters also unique, because we put many efforts into making them unique.

    They upgrading avatars for race of man - yes, they talking about that for a while. And no one say what it can be bad things. Did they announce year ago what they add beards for female characters? No. They announce more weird haricuts? No. Dark skin? No. Did they announce year ago what our OLD race of man avatars stop working? No. If they announce "we add new origins for race of man - Umbar, Harad, and THIS new origins can have some new features who looks natural for that regions, when Gondor, Rohan and Arnor have their own new features who looks natural for that regions - fine, I think most of us accept that. Man from Rohan must looks like man from Rohan - JRRT have enough skills to show us difference between different regions in this world. Man from Rohan can't look like man from Umbar, because he represent Rohan. He don't represent player who create that Man of Rohan character. Otherwise you don't celebrate uniqueness of every player, you celebreate destroying of that uniques.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    There is nothing strange about it. What? You've never seen a man that looks a little feminine out in the real world? Where you hiding? Have you travelled at all? True, the vast majority of males look manly (particularly in the Western World), but not all do. Can't exclude them.
    But this is not real world, this is middle-earth. Why you can't see that difference? Where you hiding? You just start playing Lotro? No. We don't exclude them. JRRT exclude them in this fantasy world.

    Just use any other game as example. You start playing Warcraft. Fantasy world and you accept fact what fantasy world have their own rules, races and genders. Same for Starcraft. Same for Final Fantasy. Any other fantasy game. That's why they called fantasy games. They don't need to look exactly like real world. They don't need to have all rules exactly like real world. How many churches we have in middle-earth? We need them? No. How many christianity symbols we have in middle-earth? We need them? No.
    Last edited by Elmagor; Apr 27 2023 at 11:58 AM.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elmagor View Post
    How they celebrating the uniqueness of every player with screwing about how OUR character look? We already unique, thanks for mother nature. Our characters also unique, because we put many efforts into making them unique.

    They upgrading avatars for race of man - yes, they talking about that for a while. And no one say what it can be bad things. Did they announce year ago what they add beards for female characters? No. They announce more weird haricuts? No. Dark skin? No. Did they announce year ago what our OLD race of man avatars stop working? No. If they announce "we add new origins for race of man - Umbar, Harad, and THIS new origins can have some new features who looks natural for that regions, when Gondor, Rohan and Arnor have their own new features who looks natural for that regions - fine, I think most of us accept that. Man from Rohan must looks like man from Rohan - JRRT have enough skills to show us difference between different regions in this world. Man from Rohan can't look like man from Umbar, because he represent Rohan. He don't represent player who create that Man of Rohan character. Otherwise you don't celebrate uniqueness of every player, you celebreate destroying of that uniques.



    But this is not real world, this is middle-earth. Why you can't see that difference? Where you hiding? You just start playing Lotro? No. We don't exclude them. JRRT exclude them in this fantasy world.

    Just use any other game as example. You start playing Warcraft. Fantasy world and you accept fact what fantasy world have their own rules, races and genders. Same for Starcraft. Same for Final Fantasy. Any other fantasy game. That's why they called fantasy games. They don't need to look exactly like real world. They don't need to have all rules exactly like real world. How many churches we have in middle-earth? We need them? No. How many christianity symbols we have in middle-earth? We need them? No.
    Because, as I said earlier, this update isn't about game characters, it's about players. Real people.

    As for origins, who's to say they won't follow when the expansion arrives?
    Last edited by Arnenna; Apr 27 2023 at 12:12 PM. Reason: addition to close
    Sometimes, no matter how hard you look, there is no best light.


  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by TesalionLortus View Post
    It's not that. It's what I said. This could have been reflected even better thanks to new sliders, assuming there were even more sliders to customize the way bodies of males appear (and females too, special attention on breasts there, it's silly all females have them in the same sizes).
    So, we're actually in agreement then? Nothing at all wrong with the new representation options in character creation, we could just do with a lot more of them.

    Anyhow, I've already got more involved in this than I'd like. This thread makes for a lot of uncomfortable reading, which is why I stayed out of this one, and the many others for as long as I did.

    It's been a bit of an eye opener.
    Sometimes, no matter how hard you look, there is no best light.


  6. Apr 27 2023, 12:10 PM

    Defender of the Great Apes

    Reason
    Duplicate reply to wrong post

  7. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elmagor View Post
    H We don't exclude them. JRRT exclude them in this fantasy world.
    if you removed all the things *already in the game* that JRRT excluded from his fantasy world, there would be no game left.

    let's stop pretending this is about the lore.

  8. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Because, as I said earlier, this update isn't about game characters, it's about players. Real people.

    As for origins, who's to say they won't follow when the expansion arrives?
    Because current changes looks like they put the cart before the horse. Introduce origins first and appearance second. Real people never ask for that. Real people want to see other changes in game first. Don't broke something what don't needs to be fixed in first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by mr_underfoot View Post
    if you removed all the things *already in the game* that JRRT excluded from his fantasy world, there would be no game left.

    let's stop pretending this is about the lore.
    Lore still have huge influence in the game. Let's stop pretending what lore don't exists in Lotro.

  9. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    So, we're actually in agreement then? Nothing at all wrong with the new representation options in character creation, we could just do with a lot more of them.
    Well, not entirely, I guess. Since it's happening (which I never thought they would do) I do think more options seems needed, not "could just do with a lot more" but direly needed (and they brought it on themselves by having such a saturation of certain new choices at the expense of everything else they could have created). Though I disagree beards were anywhere near needed, since could have been handled though male bodies, with more control over them. Still difficult to create a more skinny character, in a way.



    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    As for origins, who's to say they won't follow when the expansion arrives?
    SSG could say. But their silence on the matter is nowhere near reassuring, so we shouldn't be surprised people worry and criticize them over this. Plus, since all these options were already released, it's more expected of any such origins to go along with it or follow closely behind. Putting it off to expansion release, when it's basically just some text, doesn't seem right nor "cool" nor desired (and still deny us an Easterling perhaps? because it's not expansion-themed? come on!).

  10. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elmagor View Post
    Lore still have huge influence in the game. Let's stop pretending what lore don't exists in Lotro.
    yes, lore exists in the game. along with a LOT of non-lore stuff. but you seem to want stuff that tolkien excluded from the books to also be excluded from the game. which would mean:

    - no hobbits outside of shire (except maybe bilbo)
    - no beornings
    - verrrry little magic
    - no elves and dwarves except in a few locations
    - no book of mordor content onwards
    - almost no mithril
    - almost no elven/dwarf-forged weapons
    - no warsteeds
    - no festivals
    - muuuuch fewer orcs n stuff

    the list goes on.

  11. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_underfoot View Post
    yes, lore exists in the game. along with a LOT of non-lore stuff. but you seem to want stuff that tolkien excluded from the books to also be excluded from the game. which would mean:

    - no hobbits outside of shire (except maybe bilbo)
    So you pretent what Staddle never exists, and Buckland never exists?

    Don't forget what hobbits travel a lot in middle-earth before they found The Shire

    Poor Nob from The Prancing Pony, for you he never exists, right?

  12. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_underfoot View Post
    yes, lore exists in the game. along with a LOT of non-lore stuff. but you seem to want stuff that tolkien excluded from the books to also be excluded from the game. which would mean:

    - no hobbits outside of shire (except maybe bilbo)
    - no beornings
    - verrrry little magic
    - no elves and dwarves except in a few locations
    - no book of mordor content onwards
    - almost no mithril
    - almost no elven/dwarf-forged weapons
    - no warsteeds
    - no festivals
    - muuuuch fewer orcs n stuff

    the list goes on.
    Have you actually read the books?

    - saying there are no hobbits outside the Shire would come as news to the ones who lived in Bree (I've never understood why people keep forgetting about them). Also the ones who lived 'Outside'.

    - since some Beornings were far from cuddly (grim and bad) it's far from impossible that some Beorning dude might have got himself exiled from the Vales. Simply not a lore issue.

    - the Dwarves actually get out quite a bit because they do a lot of trading. Not a lore issue.

    - Mordor being authentic would simply make things different, it wouldn't mean no content at all past that point

    - almost no mithril - why would that be bad? For that matter you wouldn't be getting your mitts on lembas so casually, either. But stuff being rare and special isn't a bad thing.

    - no Dwarf-forged weapons? Think again: that's one way the Dwarves made money. But sure, the Dwarves of Erebor couldn't make blades as good as the ones made before Smaug came to Erebor. But again - only a problem if you think players should always get the coolest possible stuff.

    - no warsteeds - true in that they wouldn't have anything to do with mearas but again, you're too focused on the idea that players have to get their hands on all the cool stuff

    - no festivals - WHAT? No. Might have to make 'em more authentic but they did have festivals, you know.

    - fewer Orcs and stuff. Well yeah, you wouldn't start the game off in Eriador either. But there's no shortage of Orcs elsewhere...

    You rattling on about lore is still a red herring because the changes they've just made are not only one of the biggest lore-breaks ever but trash the whole concept of a character. More than enough there to complain about on lore grounds while leaving aside a lot of the less lore-breaking stuff. Plus various of us haev commented on stuff like that in the past. If this is the usual business about how supposedly unless we complain constantly about everything lroe-breaking ever we can't complain about anything new they do either, it's about time you got a new argument because this just isn't working. Nobody's buying it.

  13. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post

    I have much lighter opinion of SSG this last week, that's for sure. They've bitten the bullet, and stood by their decision, and good for them. They've got my support on this.
    Well said. The reaction from many in this community is disappointing at best. The lore has become so much more rigid in the views of some since SSG has given players an opportunity to "be who they want to be" and follow the story of Middle Earth in their own unique way. No one here that is complaining has been forced to change their character to something that does not represent how they perceive themself in game. Everyone still has the option to make their character their own.

    SSG gave something to the player base, and it is something that makes the community all that much more welcoming for everyone. Appreciate the gesture for what it is and make your characters however you prefer. Please stop trying to tell others what their character should look like and pushing your view of Middle Earth and how people should look on everyone in game. It is a story. It is a game. We all envision different things in this imaginary world where we relax and enjoy our time in Middle Earth.

    Thank you to SSG for giving people this opportunity.

  14. #88
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    at 1st i couldn't care less if they made bearded women, but now, judging from the overreactions.

    i cant wait to roll a big booba bearded lady and flex for all you haters!
    .

    Mortem Tyrannis

  15. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neinda View Post
    forced to change their character to something that does not represent how they perceive themself in game. Everyone still has the option to make their character their own.
    Not really, old avatars cannot be used anymore and the characters look nothing like how they looked for the past 16 years.


    Quote Originally Posted by Neinda View Post
    Thank you to SSG for giving people this opportunity.
    What opportunity?

  16. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fadil View Post
    This is such a short sighted and silly take.
    Not if you understand how an RPG works conceptually. You are not your character. I said 'indirectly', not that that means no identification but allowing for the fact that your character is not directly 'you'. If you think it's meant to be a direct relationship then no. In case you hadn't noticed, this game kept that essential difference between player and character for sixteen years and only now, when they've suddenly dropped it, do you make this claim? It's nonsense, identifying with your character does NOT mean they have to look like you or be like you. Like we can all identify with characters in books, plays, movies or other media when they don't look like us at all; they just need some quality we can relate to. So no, I'm not buying it. I've known too many people IRL whose characters looked nothing they did in real life for that to seem credible.

    Also this casual conflating of the terms avatar and player-character. No to that as well.

    As for that thing about the 'Other', in case you hadn't noticed in LOTR as written there's a big divide in Middle-earth between the Free Peoples and everybody else thanks to Sauron's efforts (you know, this big bad evil dude who's been spreading lies, distrust, fear and hate for thousands of years?). As a result the west is not full of people from Harad and Rhun, and this sort of 'instant' diversity where characters supposedly from Bree etc. now unaccountably show diversity like you might see in a modern city with no explanation possible or offered in-game shows that to be a complete red herring. Where you can really see Tolkien's views on that is where he implies that many of the Haradrim might have been dragged into the war against their will, i.e. they've victims of Sauron's warmongering and malice. But that doesn't make them any more likely to be hanging around Bree, because they have the misfortune to be on the wrong side of the conflict.

    As for trying to suggest Tolkien's views on gender might be relevant - the guy was deeply religious (and Catholic at that), socially conservative and traditionally-minded, with old-fashioned views on gender roles. Like to be sure, Eowyn has her moment of martial glory but it damn near kills her and what does she do after? She sets all that aside and determines to be a healer, and gets married - i.e. she reverts to the traditional feminine role she'd been chafing against and is then finally happy. I could go on about other things like patriarchal power-structures and Tolkien's positive zest for monarchy (and by literal divine right, at that) plus the sort of primogeniture that only very seldom lets women rule in their own right, but that's enough to make the point. You're reaching.

    Edit: and as for being swarthy, as you mentioned the House of Beor: you're leaping to a conclusion, there - Tolkien's work was written for an English audience and in typical usage, 'swarthy' might have been applied to anyone of any noticeably darker complexion than the English are wont to be, i.e. only slightly dark because we English tend to be on the pallid side. Other European peoples such as (for example) Italians used to be described as swarthy, if you go back far enough. Remember that therre's a solid European context to all of this, and remember what becomes of the Three Houses of the Edain and how the Dunedain are described.
    Last edited by Radhruin_EU; Apr 27 2023 at 03:51 PM.

  17. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neinda View Post
    Well said. The reaction from many in this community is disappointing at best. The lore has become so much more rigid in the views of some since SSG has given players an opportunity to "be who they want to be" and follow the story of Middle Earth in their own unique way. No one here that is complaining has been forced to change their character to something that does not represent how they perceive themself in game. Everyone still has the option to make their character their own.

    SSG gave something to the player base, and it is something that makes the community all that much more welcoming for everyone. Appreciate the gesture for what it is and make your characters however you prefer. Please stop trying to tell others what their character should look like and pushing your view of Middle Earth and how people should look on everyone in game. It is a story. It is a game. We all envision different things in this imaginary world where we relax and enjoy our time in Middle Earth.

    Thank you to SSG for giving people this opportunity.
    Not correct, all my man characters look different, and I can't get the original look back. Also, I still can't use old male/female hair styles and the opposite, just the new ones. Some of the new hair styles would look good with straight hair as well and some of the old with curls or locks. Still can't identify with me. And things that needed to be made easier like skin/eye/hair tones are still a mess to choose. As they go on to the next race, maybe they pay attention to this.

  18. #92
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    You don't have to worry about more players joining. Reading this thread is enough to keep them from joining. The bigotry is clear in many of these posts. My biggest issue with this thread is that it exists. The bold-faced bigotry shouldn't be tolerated in an effort to give a "fair" voice. Mods should delete it. If you want to have discussion about how dark skin and bearded females don't belong in a game, there are other online venues that would welcome such discussions.

    I'm not advocating censoring your opinion from the whole wide world - be racist and homophobic all you want. But it shouldn't be tolerated by a privately owned company on a public forum. You can try to be careful about how you phrase things all you want, but it is obvious to all of us what you really mean and what you really have a problem with, and it has nothing to do with "the lore" of the game.

  19. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarfish View Post
    You don't have to worry about more players joining. Reading this thread is enough to keep them from joining. The bigotry is clear in many of these posts. My biggest issue with this thread is that it exists. The bold-faced bigotry shouldn't be tolerated in an effort to give a "fair" voice. Mods should delete it. If you want to have discussion about how dark skin and bearded females don't belong in a game, there are other online venues that would welcome such discussions.

    I'm not advocating censoring your opinion from the whole wide world - be racist and homophobic all you want. But it shouldn't be tolerated by a privately owned company on a public forum. You can try to be careful about how you phrase things all you want, but it is obvious to all of us what you really mean and what you really have a problem with, and it has nothing to do with "the lore" of the game.
    Such threads keep exist until developers open why they do this, what they want to see with that and why they don't consider that lore-breaking

  20. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by wispsong View Post
    Not correct, all my man characters look different, and I can't get the original look back. Also, I still can't use old male/female hair styles and the opposite, just the new ones. Some of the new hair styles would look good with straight hair as well and some of the old with curls or locks. Still can't identify with me. And things that needed to be made easier like skin/eye/hair tones are still a mess to choose. As they go on to the next race, maybe they pay attention to this.
    This is a different matter, and has my support. I think they should add in the old styles to ensure that players can still use them. Some folk will miss them as that is what their characters were about.

    Adding stuff back, or adding new stuff - yes, absolutely. Fix the bugs that came along with the new things, yes, absolutely. But, that isn't what a lot of players are asking for in this, and other threads, which is to remove certain options. No to that.
    Sometimes, no matter how hard you look, there is no best light.


  21. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    the changes they've just made are not only one of the biggest lore-breaks ever
    one of the biggest lore-breaks EVER, huh?

    bearded ladies.

    one of the biggest lore-breaks EVER.

  22. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarfish View Post
    You don't have to worry about more players joining. Reading this thread is enough to keep them from joining. The bigotry is clear in many of these posts. My biggest issue with this thread is that it exists. The bold-faced bigotry shouldn't be tolerated in an effort to give a "fair" voice.

    I'm not advocating censoring your opinion from the whole wide world - be racist and homophobic all you want.
    Do you even listen to yourself? I've posted here too and I'm incredibly offended now - what you say is not true. Take your censorship and vile bile elsewhere.

  23. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_underfoot View Post
    one of the biggest lore-breaks EVER, huh?

    bearded ladies.

    one of the biggest lore-breaks EVER.
    I think most players have there own version of the biggest lore break in game. Mine has come and gone. Hobbits swinging magic wands around in the air and summoning lightning strikes from the sky. Still, it exists in the game. Players that didn't want it, accept it and move on, comfortable in their choice not to use the option.
    Sometimes, no matter how hard you look, there is no best light.


  24. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    But, that isn't what a lot of players are asking for in this, and other threads, which is to remove certain options. No to that.
    You must be reading them wrong then. The names of some of the threads are controversial (or OPs in particular have some challenging requests that aren't going to happen) but my impression is that most would be satisfied with some lore origins and more options that were missing added. Or something like a check box to disable beards, like we could disable newer avatar looks from before (I doubt SSG would do that, but still, that's not taking anything away, and even for such unharmful suggestion people were... being laughed off and attacked here, like they're not human beings worth of any consideration, that's not ok).

  25. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_underfoot View Post
    one of the biggest lore-breaks EVER, huh?

    bearded ladies.

    one of the biggest lore-breaks EVER.
    I wasn't talking about that, if you look. Try to keep up.

  26. #100
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    this whole argument is just silly.

    what next? are you gonna ban a male character from wearing dresses now?

    Women shouldn't wear pants?

    dwarven men shouldn't have free nipples? ( i hear they chafe easy ) its a condition.

    even today the shadow of Sauron's malice lingers, just waiting to return.

    its a freaking fantasy game lol
    .

    Mortem Tyrannis

 

 
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