The beards on female humans is a symbolic update that heralds huge changes

[Radhruin_EU]

I did not really feel bad about any lore break over the years because it was always handled well and I wouldn't complain now if they've done it better.

Was it, now. Hobbit LMs? Where was the rationale there?

Now, if they added black elves and it's the same like now, absolutely zero effort to make it work, they would officially become an utter anti-thesis of themselves and the quality they usually deliver on landscape, right there at the intro to the game, congrats.

More like a next logical step further down the spiral because if you accept the idea that the so-called 'characters' are 'really' just avatars and the game is only an RPG in purely mechanical terms, then the appearance of all these not-really-characters-any-more no longer signifies anything within the game; it's entirely out-of-character, only there for display. The experience of the game's systems and content wouldn't change; your 'character' is then just a means with which to interact with it and to dress up to look nice. I bet you that if SSG did the same to Elves and hobbits tomorrow we'd likely only get the exact same arguments from the 'usual suspects' here - it's an avatar, blah blah blah. Maybe a bit more of a debate because after all, diverse peoples of Men are part of the setting to begin with, just not hanging out in Bree etc. whereas that's not the case with hobbits and Elves but otherwise we can guess what people would likely say, especially if the 'characters' are just thought of as avatars - it doesn't affect the game, they'd say, you can just ignore it, it shouldn't bother you.

Now what would really set the cat among the pigeons would be for the game to go full RoP and diversify all the NPCs as well, but I highly doubt SSG would go that far (they don't need to, in order to get the tick in the box for player representation).

[wispsong]

I've considered this point, and while I think it has merit, I'm of the opinion that keeping the distinctions among regions would still have been better. In 2011 I created a dark skinned Woman from Gondor. When this new update came out I was able to give her new hair better suited to the back story i had for her. Up until now, if anyone wanted to create a dark-skinned human character, you could do it, you just had limited facial options and could only choose straight hair. People with these characters, created in the past, can still add on the new cosmetic options with no need to change their origin background, just like I did. Limiting dark skin to Gondor (and maybe Dale somewhat) would not have taken away from anyone who had already created a character and wanted the new options - because they would have already had to have chosen Gondor to begin with. No origin change required. (Not sure how dark you could get with Dale and unfortunately there's no way to check now.)

I remember now seeing a few black characters in Bree before the update. You are right, no change was required there.

[Halphast]

To me, things that break the lore more than Elves with dark skin would:

-noisy poinsettia huorns following people around
-obviously female Dwarves joining males in battle (not just an aesthetic change; breaks the lore of Dwarf culture)
-Hobbit Loremasters (even though I have one)
-Loremasters existing as powerful nature wizards - at all.
-Runekeepers existing as a different kind of wizard - at all.
-Hobbits all over the world in "hidden" villages
-Hobbits participating in wars and adventures all over the world (NPCs too, not just characters)
-people wearing decorated layer cakes on their heads
-people with raven or insect wings
-riding war-steeds at full tilt through towns and villages causing absolutely no damage to anyone or anything
-bands playing ELO in Bree (even though I love ELO and our wonderful music community)

Also, back to the topic of this thread, beard options for women: it's now been 9 days since beard options went live and I've still never seen one person using them.

[TesalionLortus]

Was it, now. Hobbit LMs? Where was the rationale there?

I was thinking further back but now that you mention it, yeah, while I didn't mind the idea of opening up these classes, I did remember myself giving SSG some critique because they didn't adjust anything to make it fit with new races/combos. Now that you mentioned it... it's exactly what they did now, the same kind of lousy "does not matter, who cares, don't have time!" disjointed approach, which reflects poorly on a game so rich in storytelling and lore. Except the class/race combos have gone largely unnoticed and affect only the tiny group, you gotta choose a specific combo and then notice any such inconsistencies in the game. But here it's outright "hey, welcome to the game" creation panel, which is bonkers, and many players judge games by creation panel, especially casuals. Does this look appealing or not?

Even back then I said this is the sort of thing they should think of beforehand, not just utterly ignore, but at least back then MoL said he would be happy to change some descriptions/deeds with new combos if people come across them (though I wouldn't submit any of that, since I don't play these combos... I wonder if anybody did, or does lack of volunteers means SSG ends up with lousy disjointed descriptions huh?). But now we have no word from SSG whether they'll be adding origins and making some decent sense out of it, so I wonder. I mean, sure, one might say they're trying to have that check mark and then on landscape do what they usually do. Still doesn't mean it should be done in such a lousy way because they're effectively going from something rich in lore, with such good impression at creation panel, to something so utterly lousy and shallow that many of their competitors can easily beat them at first impression, from PC to mobile games or even browser games (they all know the power of "lore" impression and soothing one into the mood of rpg, even if many turn out to be boring lackluster games with poor storytelling).

[Radhruin_EU]

To me, things that break the lore more than Elves with dark skin would:

To you, perhaps, but for those of us who know our lore and where Tolkien got his inspirations from we'd basically have to forget the lot to make that true.

- Elves are from Northern European myth

- they're imagined as appearing the way they traditionally do because of that

- Tolkien was pretending for storytelling purposes that folk-tales of both Elves and Dwarves reflected folk-memories of such beings from long ago

- they're supposedly remembered in the North because he has them living on in the North for a great many years after the end of LOTR before the Elves eventually 'fade' and the Dwarves die out

- in Norse myth, there are 'Light Elves' who are 'fairer than the sun to look upon' (Light Elves or Elves of the Light = High Elves, here and that's why Galadriel looks the way she does) and who may be beneficent and then there are 'Dark Elves' who live beneath the earth and in looks and behaviour they're said to the opposite of the Light Elves: 'blacker than pitch' and malign. That image of Dark Elves found its way into Marvel comics and into D&D as the Drow. Tolkien gave that nastiness to the Orcs, instead, and repurposed the term 'Dark Elves' to mean more 'nice' Elves but just ones who'd never seen the Light of the Two Trees so they weren't as supernatural or powerful as the High Elves.

- that means there's no evident scope for Elves to be dark-skinned in this setting

- Elves weren't affected by climatic extremes like Men were and the High Elves had basked in the full light and heat of the Two Trees. Sunburn is for mortals!

- Men were destined to inherit the world and live throughout it so they were made with that in mind, but being mortal and hence more frail than the Elves they needed a broad range of skin tones to match.

- the Elves had never gone into the south and that's significant because the Men there had never had the chance to meet them and thus find out the truth about Morgoth and Sauron. (The Men of the East fell under Morgoth's sway and stayed that way before they had chance to get to know the Elves, which is why the Easterlings are on Team Morgoth in the Silmarillion whereas the Men who went on to become the Edain had broken away and gone west in hopes of meeting the Elves, which they eventually did). No implied scope for Elves down south either, regardless of how they might look.

So on the whole, it'd be just as crass as having hobbits doing magic (and for the same reason, going wholly against how Tolkien imagined them) but here's the thing: hobbits doing magic is a recent change, symptomatic of the same issue of SSG just doing 'whatever' and likewise something that shouldn't even have gone into the game. Are you trying to use that sort of ill-considered change as an excuse for more ill-considered changes? Because I really don't think that's a sensible way to look at it.

Some other comments on your list:

- cosmetics are neither here nor there, especially pets as we have the option to hide them for this exact reason
- player music is neither here nor there, what they choose to play doesn't reflect on the game itself at all
- any game like this needs at least one caster class to have commercial success (because lots of people like casters) and Turbine told us they needed the RK as well for the same reason.
- you can tell that LMs and RKs are more crucial because they put those in, which shows that dark-skinned Elves aren't anything like significant enough a draw to *require* them to be added like that regardless of lore
- playable hobbits were also a must-have for commercial success because of their sheer popularity (same point as above)
- hobbits living outside the Shire and the Bree-land is lore, albeit they shouldn't be in twee little villages you can just happen across (but again, a recent change, a case of 'whatever')
- as for thundering about on war-steeds without crashing into things: that's a game mechanical issue, not a lore one.

[Elmagor]

-Runekeepers existing as a different kind of wizard - at all.

RK can't be wizard and can't use magic without his RK stone.

-Hobbits all over the world in "hidden" villages

Hobbits never live only in The Shire and they travel all over the world, it's true (before they reach The Shire). Some of them can be lost and found other villages, why not? Smeagol don't live in The Shire, right?

-Hobbits participating in wars and adventures all over the world (NPCs too, not just characters)

Nob working is Pony as example. Company of Shire archers fighting in Battle of Fornost, another example. They involved in border wars in Rhudaur too.

-people wearing decorated layer cakes on their heads

We can imagine that in The Shire, why not? JRTT never denay that

-riding war-steeds at full tilt through towns and villages causing absolutely no damage to anyone or anything

Why not? We can't imagine what JRRT say high traffic closed in villages. During war, why not?

it's now been 9 days since beard options went live and I've still never seen one person using them

Because... no one asking for them in first place?

[Arnenna]

I was thinking further back but now that you mention it, yeah, while I didn't mind the idea of opening up these classes, I did remember myself giving SSG some critique because they didn't adjust anything to make it fit with new races/combos. Now that you mentioned it... it's exactly what they did now, the same kind of lousy "does not matter, who cares, don't have time!" disjointed approach, which reflects poorly on a game so rich in storytelling and lore. Except the class/race combos have gone largely unnoticed and affect only the tiny group, you gotta choose a specific combo and then notice any such inconsistencies in the game. But here it's outright "hey, welcome to the game" creation panel, which is bonkers, and many players judge games by creation panel, especially casuals. Does this look appealing or not?

Even back then I said this is the sort of thing they should think of beforehand, not just utterly ignore, but at least back then MoL said he would be happy to change some descriptions/deeds with new combos if people come across them (though I wouldn't submit any of that, since I don't play these combos... I wonder if anybody did, or does lack of volunteers means SSG ends up with lousy disjointed descriptions huh?). But now we have no word from SSG whether they'll be adding origins and making some decent sense out of it, so I wonder. I mean, sure, one might say they're trying to have that check mark and then on landscape do what they usually do. Still doesn't mean it should be done in such a lousy way because they're effectively going from something rich in lore, with such good impression at creation panel, to something so utterly lousy and shallow that many of their competitors can easily beat them at first impression, from PC to mobile games or even browser games (they all know the power of "lore" impression and soothing one into the mood of rpg, even if many turn out to be boring lackluster games with poor storytelling).

Magical hobbits are in the game, regardless of who thought they broke lore or not. For me, it doesn't get more lore breaking than that. They could introduce a dozen or more things far worse than bearded females, that still wouldn't come close to hobbits doing magic on the "completely off it, bonkers" scale.

I just moved on and don't look at them in game. Well sometimes I do, and I laugh a lot.

So, you're now saying you're fine with magic hobbits (you were back then) as long as there is some back story for them. Yet, not fine with bearded females no matter what?

How are you with females kissing, or flirting with other females in game? Or males kissing or flirting with other males? That's been around since launch. I wonder is that something that people would think Tolkien would frown upon.

[Arnenna]

RK can't be wizard and can't use magic without his RK stone.

And Gandalf couldn't do magic without his staff either. He did have magic powers without it, but not the kind that you are referring to.

So, your point is?

Hobbits never live only in The Shire and they travel all over the world, it's true (before they reach The Shire). Some of them can be lost and found other villages, why not? Smeagol don't live in The Shire, right?

But LOTRO isn't set in that time. Nowhere near it. Now, if you're going to argue that bearded females cannot exist, due to a time line, you probably ought to stick to it.

[Elmagor]

And Gandalf couldn't do magic without his staff either. You point is?

My point what regular normal person need some teaching/training/talent or some magic weapon to use magic. Galariel don't need staff for magic

[Arnenna]

My point what regular normal person need some teaching/training/talent or some magic weapon to use magic. Galariel don't need staff for magic

You're right, she doesn't, but she does have a magic ring. She is elven also, and not just a run of the mill elf.

You still don't have much of a point.

[TesalionLortus]

So, you're now saying you're fine with magic hobbits (you were back then) as long as there is some back story for them. Yet, not fine with bearded females no matter what?

I did not mention beards here. Beards are weird, I question the decision, but not like it actually bothers me and it doesn't exactly have too direct of an effect on the game's first impression either (especially now, that they changed it and it's not tied to randomization).

[Arnenna]

I did not mention beards here. Beards are weird, I question the decision, but not like it actually bothers me and it doesn't exactly have too direct of an effect on the game's first impression either (especially now, that they changed it and it's not tied to randomization).

Glad to hear it.

[Radhruin_EU]

I was thinking further back but now that you mention it, yeah, while I didn't mind the idea of opening up these classes, I did remember myself giving SSG some critique because they didn't adjust anything to make it fit with new races/combos. Now that you mentioned it... it's exactly what they did now, the same kind of lousy "does not matter, who cares, don't have time!" disjointed approach, which reflects poorly on a game so rich in storytelling and lore. Except the class/race combos have gone largely unnoticed

There was actually quite a bit of comment about hobbit LMs at the time, because it's such a direct loreLOL, stuff Tolkien kind of thing (one of the most obvious examples of them just not caring what they do now). But I've got a bone to pick with you there: all you ever seem to say you'd want for anything from them is some sort of quickly scribbled excuse to make it all okay or some sort of unspecified adjustment to somehow make it fit. That couldn't ever have worked in that case: you can't rationalise away clear steers from the author that he, for one, didn't imagine hobbits being into any sort of complex lore, let alone any kind of magic. (And he didn't imagine hobbits being warlike and bloodthirsty either, but they got Champion too).

I think you let them off way too easy. Like with this diversity business: an origin (just a trivial and generic bit of character bio) wouldn't be enough, it'd need a proper story, a starting zone, all of that. Maybe someone was a galley slave on a pirate ship that the crew had had to beach somewhere for repairs, and somehow contrives to escape. Something of that sort, anyway, classic character intro stuff. Easterlings would be easier, at least for the nearby ones; not so much for anyone from the far distant East as they don't turn up before Sauron's downfall (he'd sent for them - 'all the East is moving' - but he gets taken out before they show). Bit tougher to go from that to having some guy from there just turning up in Bree as if by magic. So again, I think you should probably expect a bit better from them than just an origin before you'll consider they'd have done a proper job of it.

[Elmagor]

We have one huge difference between Hobbit LM and female beards - people actually asking about Hobbit LMs many, many times. I still remember around 10+ topics related to them and hobbit captains, and I never, never seen any topic asking for female beard. Or asking about dark skined characters from Gondor or Rohan

[SniperCT]

"don't bring politics" I'm trans, apparently my just existing and playing this game and wanting some of my characters to reflect me is political lol

Some of the replies in this thread depress me. It's worse than the kerfluffle around expanding character creation options in WoW was.

These forums are almost always a cesspool (I have played dozens of MMOs and no one hates a game more than lotro players on the lotro forums, and that is saying a LOT) so I don't spend much time anymore, but it's been even worse lately.

I saw someone mention ff14 and I had to lol. You can literally make the full gamut of human representation in that game across most races, even the non-human ones (the game considers all the races to be humans though)

I can't wait for these options to hit my elves and high elves.

The removal of each region being unique saddens me too, and I don't understand why it couldn't have been preserved. It served an important purpose, which was to give players an idea of what each region's demographic was, and you could use that information to determine not only your character's look but also their background as well. For example, the people of Rohan were known for having light skin and mostly blonde hair - that was reflected in the color patch you had to work with. If you wanted something different you had to squish your cursor onto the edges of the swatch, and that to me represented that your character's look would not be a common one for that region. You could then use that info to create a more, interesting, realistic character - one who had Dunlending ancestry, for example, or some other background.

Likewise, Gondor was more diverse in its color choices, and that also made sense. The southern border of Gondor has been located in different places throughout Gondor's history, sometimes including Umbar, sometimes bordering closer to Harad and Kand, etc. It stands to reason that people would intermingle over the centuries, and that that would be reflected in darker skin colors and hair.

I don't see why SSG could not have included the new options in color swatches customized for each region. Give Gondor the color choices we have now, give Dale some of that too maybe (to reflect its closer proximity to the east perhaps), but leave Bree with a more tightly controlled palette and Rohan the most homogeneous of all. Then later maybe we could even get background choices for Umbar, Harad or Rhun, and for them someone with blonde hair and pale skin might be very rare indeed. They could have kept all the hair styles and head and facial sliders the way they are now, with the max choices for everyone.

I really dislike it when cool features that make the game unique are removed.

It's probably the way it is now to allow old characters to be changed without paying for a race change, as, currently, there is NO WAY to change your origin.

I for one would rather have access to all these options on my existing characters instead of having to reroll or pay $$$.

For 15 years, Representation wasn't such important? What changes in this 15 years, related to bearded females or color of skin? Nothing

They've been wanting to update/improve the player models for years. They finally have the time/budget to do so. So while they're at it, why not add more representation?

While the suggestion of adding cosmetic appearances in a region based manner is an idea, this would cause its own problems. The game is 16 years old. Some of us have had human characters for 16 years. The new regions and cosmetics would work for new characters, but 16 year old characters would be stuck in their original cosmetic options because there is no option in the barber shop that I know of to change your character's backstory and region of origin. I think SSG did the best they could for the most players. Let's appreciate the choices we have for our characters. As for fixing the bugs, I really wish the game had a test server and some of this was tested before going live.

The game has a test server, I did talk about some of the bugs with hairstyles and the like when the patch was put on it a week before it came out, but the conversation got derailed by... *gestures at this thread*

At the same time, some of us who made our characters years ago, spent time doing so, and were happy with the way they look now longer have them the same way. I appreciate the technical aspects, but I really do wish there was some way to retain the old models. I also miss what made each region (Bree, Dale, Rohan and Gondor) unique.

Likely technical reasons for this. As in the old models were actively impacting development and they were removed so that devs didn't have to worry about that anymore. This happened in WoW, too. Hell, Lotro is or has removed 32-bit clients and mac support and a variety of other things because of this reason.

I've considered this point, and while I think it has merit, I'm of the opinion that keeping the distinctions among regions would still have been better. In 2011 I created a dark skinned Woman from Gondor. When this new update came out I was able to give her new hair better suited to the back story i had for her. Up until now, if anyone wanted to create a dark-skinned human character, you could do it, you just had limited facial options and could only choose straight hair. People with these characters, created in the past, can still add on the new cosmetic options with no need to change their origin background, just like I did. Limiting dark skin to Gondor (and maybe Dale somewhat) would not have taken away from anyone who had already created a character and wanted the new options - because they would have already had to have chosen Gondor to begin with. No origin change required. (Not sure how dark you could get with Dale and unfortunately there's no way to check now.)

Dale could get nearly as dark as Gondor and had more varied eye colors.

[CaerArianrhod]

Therefore we ask that the devs stop the change train and reverse the human customisation update and rune-keeper shock rotation and give us option for the old maps, and that LOTRO stays LOTRO. Or even better, release LOTRO Classic with proper per-patch progression - there was a private server called Echoes of Angmar which ran on a pre-Moria patch and was quite popular before it closed, and now after the last update it would surely be even more popular. All hope lies in either restoring LOTRO to its former glory, or in LOTRO Classic - and, as my friend said, hope is not in vain.

First of all: WHO is "we"?
Not me. Please don't speak for me, when I didn't ask you to do so.
I am not affected by the changes, because my male/female characters look the same as before.
But I am very happy for any other players who wish to give their character such a unique appearance as it is currently possible.

Second: please stop such "it is the end of the world" exaggerated drama. It is such a stick-in-the-mud mindset.

“The world has changed.
I see it in the water.
I feel it in the Earth.
I smell it in the air.
Much that once was is lost,
For none now live who remember it.”

Get used to it.

[Chaltier]

t's now been 9 days since beard options went live and I've still never seen one person using them.

For the sake of everyone still playing who would rather let Middle Earth stay Middle Earth without modernity being shoehorned into it, let's hope it stays this way.

[CaerArianrhod]

For the sake of everyone still playing who would rather let Middle Earth stay Middle Earth without modernity being shoehorned into it, let's hope it stays this way.

For the sake of everyone still playing who would rather let Middle Earth stay Middle Earth without the age and mindset of the Neanderthal shoehorned into it, let's hope it stays this way, with all possible character options that are given now.

[Elmagor]

They've been wanting to update/improve the player models for years. They finally have the time/budget to do so. So while they're at it, why not add more representation?

Because it will be waste of money when people want to see engine upgrade/lag fixes? Hire more people, advertise your game better and you gain more players. Just look at Gundabad/Before the Shadow trailers, and compare them with Blizzard trailers. Adding new character creation features don't bring new players, because new players never find out about that features anyway. Or freak out of it and don't try to play. Such thing can only turn away players from Lotro

[TesalionLortus]

But I've got a bone to pick with you there: all you ever seem to say you'd want for anything from them is some sort of quickly scribbled excuse to make it all okay or some sort of unspecified adjustment to somehow make it fit. That couldn't ever have worked in that case: you can't rationalise away clear steers from the author that he, for one, didn't imagine hobbits being into any sort of complex lore, let alone any kind of magic. (And he didn't imagine hobbits being warlike and bloodthirsty either, but they got Champion too).

You can't exactly rationalize that one any more than you could a brawler, but some internal consistency though the game text/skill names etc would be still a desirable result. It's just a hallmark of a well-curated product, that's all. That's why I think that even if they do such things - it gotta be done with some "order" behind that, not just slapped onto what was there and not even trying, acting like the game's UI, tooltips and other such things, like some internal consistency in other areas, are somehow separate from the game and its worldbuilding, "this is ok, our players don't need that, it's just some silly stuff, if no one reports it as a bug then that's not needed at all" (seriously, where did they get THAT idea from? I seriously wonder, almost as if they never played any other game).

I think you let them off way too easy. Like with this diversity business: an origin (just a trivial and generic bit of character bio) wouldn't be enough, it'd need a proper story, a starting zone, all of that. Maybe someone was a galley slave on a pirate ship that the crew had had to beach somewhere for repairs, and somehow contrives to escape. Something of that sort, anyway, classic character intro stuff. Easterlings would be easier, at least for the nearby ones; not so much for anyone from the far distant East as they don't turn up before Sauron's downfall (he'd sent for them - 'all the East is moving' - but he gets taken out before they show). Bit tougher to go from that to having some guy from there just turning up in Bree as if by magic. So again, I think you should probably expect a bit better from them than just an origin before you'll consider they'd have done a proper job of it.

I mean, in an ideal world, sure, I agree with that, and Stout-axe/Beorning/High-elf treatment is what I would have expected. But we're clearly way past that point - both due to their desire to open these things up and technical/resources limitations, because having such starter zones would be a lot of work. Plus, if the idea would be waiting for X years until they can jump into it and add some starter zones for any such origins... strongly disapprove, because once again, SSG aren't modders and this game is no mod, it is expected to be (and from the business standpoint should appear as such!) a finished product that makes some sense, not some half-baked "we want to be perfect but can't right now so gotta wait 4 years, ok?" Out of the question. Or at least that's how it should be, from business/product appeal standpoint.

That's why - hopefully a well-done, so not just very trivial and generic - bit of character bio/lore flavor through text boxes could have sufficed here. A well-done version might as well include or hint somewhat at some of these things you're talking about. They can make it richer and provide a little bit more than just generic 3 sentences, why not, this is LOTRO. Costs nothing - some text work, a little bit of time, and maybe minimal UI work (or have it somewhat cluttered there without any adjustments to the UI but at least have it there, and then make sure that whoever makes the UI rework down the road will remember to organize it somewhat better in neat paragraphs or under additional panels that can be opened).

Anyway, that's how I see it, given what was their goal here and the trajectory they took. SSG would do wise to play a few other games in the fantasy/rpg climate and take note. They will find that, compared with many others, their creation panel is such a lackluster as of now. Super low (and confusing) lore (and rpg flavor) appeal, and very messy with the skin tones and Westerner labels, very misleading, given this game is nothing like RoP on landscape (they would do good to give people a hint maybe this is not necessarily like RoP and they know their Tolkien, despite the full customization freedom in players' hands, and perhaps even provide some lore hints for RPers trying to make their lore appropriate denizens). The ideal model is if you can convey some good idea about the world to an utter newbie through character panel alone, thanks to descriptions (or uniqueness behind creation choices but... LOTRO erased the meaning of these now, so won't do).

PS: Granted, assuming that's what they wanna do (but we don't know yet, maybe not?), I would probably have a hard time to come up with a somewhat nice hook/flavor text for some black hobbits and black elves origins and cultural lore pointers (or Asian hobbits and elves? lol)... but still, I stand by what I said above, someone like MoL gotta swallow the bullet SSG prepared for themselves (if that's how they go about it) and make it work within their own established universe, period. Come up with something moderately interesting or something that may appear lame and we just need to accept that, but do that. You can't have your cake and eat it too, if a product is to appear decently and have some appeal at entry level. You're either doing it or not doing it. We're doing it but try to pretend is not happening for all lore-related/flavor purposes/exposure... well, that's bonkers, in my view. I'll let SSG know if I actually run into a game that's done it this way - it might be a while...

[Mund]

- in Norse myth, there are 'Light Elves' who are 'fairer than the sun to look upon' (Light Elves or Elves of the Light = High Elves, here and that's why Galadriel looks the way she does) and who may be beneficent and then there are 'Dark Elves' who live beneath the earth and in looks and behaviour they're said to the opposite of the Light Elves: 'blacker than pitch' and malign. That image of Dark Elves found its way into Marvel comics and into D&D as the Drow. Tolkien gave that nastiness to the Orcs, instead, and repurposed the term 'Dark Elves' to mean more 'nice' Elves but just ones who'd never seen the Light of the Two Trees so they weren't as supernatural or powerful as the High Elves.

OK but you have to consider the message this sends today! The fact is, SSG is making a game in the year 2023, not 1923, and making light skinned creatures good and virtuous and black skinned creatures nasty and malicious is gross. There's a reason why white nationalists love their norse mythology symbolism.

-Runekeepers existing as a different kind of wizard - at all.

Some of us remember the playerbase meltdowns over the rune-keeper class back in 2008-9 There were multiple long threads for months about why the class didn't fit into the lore.

[Chaltier]

For the sake of everyone still playing who would rather let Middle Earth stay Middle Earth without the age and mindset of the Neanderthal shoehorned into it, let's hope it stays this way, with all possible character options that are given now.

Even were we not discussing a mediaevally-inspired world written by a very traditionally-minded Catholic, inserting ideology that didn't even exist at the time LotR was written is just out of place. That you hyperbolically compare to Neanderthals a definition of biological sex that was the universally-accepted norm throughout all of history - including when Tolkien lived - until about ten years ago, the altering of which is still rejected by most of the world, isn't a good start to a convincing argument for including it in his world.

"Representation" of something the author never imagined for RL reasons is just out of place in-universe. This isn't WoW where they can reimagine the game world at will to insert references to celebrities and popular culture. If that's what the devs want, they should start their own IP. Short of that, there are plenty of ways to represent marginalized groups that actually belong in Middle Earth and their battle for acceptance by the Free Peoples, such as refugees from Harad and Rhûn.

Despite what we critics of this patch are being accused of, I feel confident speaking for most of us in saying it's not about females having facial hair - bearded dwarves are fine, and had they added facial hair options to female Beornings it would likely have bothered no one because it makes sense within the established lore. It's about an addition that doesn't fit in-universe to promote an obvious RL ideology (whether we agree with the ideology or not is irrelevant) without giving the slightest thought to how to fit it into Middle Earth using established lore. This is why things like the Rune Keeper aren't nearly as problematic - for all its faults, at least they took the idea from something Tolkien wrote, built upon it, and then made the effort to explain it and make it work.

[SniperCT]

Because it will be waste of money when people want to see engine upgrade/lag fixes? Hire more people, advertise your game better and you gain more players. Just look at Gundabad/Before the Shadow trailers, and compare them with Blizzard trailers. Adding new character creation features don't bring new players, because new players never find out about that features anyway. Or freak out of it and don't try to play. Such thing can only turn away players from Lotro

Different skillsets, the team working on character models isn't working on lag.

Y

PS: Granted, assuming that's what they wanna do (but we don't know yet, maybe not?), I would probably have a hard time to come up with a somewhat nice hook/flavor text for some black hobbits and black elves origins and cultural lore pointers (or Asian hobbits and elves? lol)... but still, I stand by what I said above, someone like MoL gotta swallow the bullet SSG prepared for themselves (if that's how they go about it) and make it work within their own established universe, period. Come up with something moderately interesting or something that may appear lame and we just need to accept that, but do that. You can't have your cake and eat it too, if a product is to appear decently and have some appeal at entry level. You're either doing it or not doing it. We're doing it but try to pretend is not happening for all lore-related/flavor purposes/exposure... well, that's bonkers, in my view. I'll let SSG know if I actually run into a game that's done it this way - it might be a while...

Hobbits are frequently described with brown skin, so going darker is not unreasonable. (And there is literally nothing in the books that says there couldn't be black hobbits)

Origins for easterling and southron elves is easy. Elves originally came from the far east, not all sailed west, many turned back or away early. They could have ended up in hidden cities in the east and the south, separated by the ages from their kin. I can even provide a name for the southerners that I've used in fanfic and the like, Cúrondhrim (SSG you can totally steal it) the people/host of the crescent moon

But they're likely to not add new origins simply so players can change their existing characters more easily, which is fine.

Also, one could reasonably argue that Noldor (high elves) come in darker coloring based on various text and descriptions. Certainly they could stand to have ruddier skin tones (since some of them are even NAMED for being ruddy/redtoned, Caranthir among others). I cannot get a dark/reddish enough skin tone for my high elves, for example. They're all ... fairly pale and not even tanned, which is ridiculous.

We originally weren't going to be allowed blonde/silver hair for elves, my wife and I fought for that on the beta forums, it was an epic battle over lore lol

I will wage that same fight for darker skinned elves.

Some of us remember the playerbase meltdowns over the rune-keeper class back in 2008-9 There were multiple long threads for months about why the class didn't fit into the lore.

I was there, gandalf...

Warden too, but mostly runekeeper. I wasn't fond of them at the time either, though that was 50% the zappy noises hurt my ears.

[Elmagor]

Different skillsets, the team working on character models isn't working on lag.

No one say they must work on lags. Hire new people. Or hire new people to advertise work from this people. I check gaming sites - no news about Lotro anniversary, no news about Character Avatars. Last news only about 2032 road map and some sites have news about Carn Dum release, that's all.

[SniperCT]

No one say they must work on lags. Hire new people. Or hire new people to advertise work from this people. I check gaming sites - no news about Lotro anniversary, no news about Character Avatars. Last news only about 2032 road map and some sites have news about Carn Dum release, that's all.

IIRC they've mentioned a few times they've been hiring people. But that takes time to onboard. WoW famously doubled their dev team and development actually slowed for nearly two years before things picked up.

Come to think of it, something like character models might actually be the kind of thing you use to onboard new people and get them used to the tools and game engine. A lot of dev teams do that, assign a new hire some tasks to get them some experience in the specific hiccups and quirks of the game while also still contributing. In another game I follow, one onboarding task recently mentioned was assigning a new hire to redo some turrets and improve them.