Hunter Update - Option #1

[Catrine]

$0.02 of someone who plays mostly ranged characters, mostly hunters, mostly blue line, mostly solo:

I play ranged characters so I can kill things before they get close enough to kill me, hunters mostly for the guide skills, blue line so I don't have to worry about interrupting skill inductions, and solo because I am not good at any of this (and also busy). As long as I can continue incompetently shooting my way through the fields of murdery orcs between me and all the interesting things I want to visit, I will be a happy camper

[Gwaerendes]

After reading through both Options purposed, I'd say I like the first option better. I play hunters in all three lines, and enjoy each of those characters for their different play styles. Like others, I am sort of surprised that Yellow Line was the one you were focusing on preserving in the second option, since I rarely run into others playing it.

A question about Rapid Assault as described in Post #47: is there a reason why it has a cool down twice as long as the current skill that it is replacing? Three minutes (180s) is a longer time compared to Rapid Fire's 1 minute 30 seconds (90s)...and it is doing virtually the same thing (minus possibly the Physical Mastery buff of the current Rapid Fire?).

I would like to say that yes, this is considered an MMORPG. 'RP' is a part of that, and being able to create a character (a hunter, say?) and have the opportunity to play that character in a different way than another of the same class is also part of the game. I vote for keeping all three Hunter lines and developing them for that reason.

[Arially]

I would say of the two presented options this one is better but I still can't say I enjoy this one's blue-line emphasis on melee much at all. For me, the movement ability for the blue line has always meant kiteing. and losing out on focus due to not ever playing in melee sounds like a disappointing change to the class/line combo that I main here in LOTRO.

That said, given one of the two options removes the blue line entirely, I would absolutely take Option 1 as is with no reservations.

[Michaleo]

Besides the removal of Barrage (something they're still kicking ideas around) these changes are mostly just additive to what is already there. i.e. you could play precisely as you are with basically no difference, but if you wanted to do even more damage than you are currently doing, you could mix in some of the new melee.

Of the 3 medium armour classes Hunter has the highest mits. And some pretty solid self healing. So yeah, Hunter can happily be in melee, squishier specs manage it.

Discussing the removal of Barrage reminds me of the one-liner "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, what did you think of the play?" I guess we didn't really need that big, induction-less attack that we can do 3 times in 5 seconds.

There is no way to add melee-related traits without negatively affecting ranged blue. I'm willing to be proven wrong, but show me the arithmetic before you commit to the change. Those trait points come from somewhere.

No hunter is "happily in melee".

Repeating myself: Please don't make things worse for noobs, casuals, and solo questers in order to add some options for group play.

[WeirdJedi]

I didn't care about melee on my hunter for a long time. Blue Barrage was sort of the only thing you needed in those days. Then everything changed by the time I got to level 100. I'm not just talking about the difficulty introduced with Mordor. Update 22.2 came out with some heavy changes that made me switch to redline. On top of that, I didn't see it worth going after the legendary crystals to increase my melee damage when I barely hit enemies with them anyways. Of course, the LI Revamp helped with that.

When I started doing things with other people, that's when I began experimenting with all three lines. I've found myself heading towards the enemy to interrupt them, cutting off enemies that were in pursuit of others with low cut, slowing people down with quick shot in precision stance, and yes - even temporarily tanking in endurance stance with the help of Eldar's Grace.

I remember trying to setup a "survival" legendary bow to test out some traceries you wouldn't normally use. I was not impressed with how my Cry of the Hunter went from a 23,788 bubble to 32,114. While the cooldown reduction was primarily useful, the Press Onward tracery wasn't too helpful with the boost when it went from 258,381 - 287,090 to 277,695 - 308,550.

[Joedangod]

Discussing the removal of Barrage reminds me of the one-liner "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, what did you think of the play?" I guess we didn't really need that big, induction-less attack that we can do 3 times in 5 seconds.

As mentioned they're still kicking around the replacement. Bit misleading though, since third shot is a 12s cooldown.

There is no way to add melee-related traits without negatively affecting ranged blue. I'm willing to be proven wrong, but show me the arithmetic before you commit to the change. Those trait points come from somewhere.

He's adding melee modifiers to existing traits in addition to the ranged modifiers on them already and he's merging a bunch of the redundant "upside" traits like Fleetness getting merged into standard traits. As he said, he's mostly trying to make this additive on to what already exists rather than subtracting what already exists.

[Joedangod]

The last update I will make here is to Bowmaster.

Anyhow, to get back to comments on this.

Fast Draw and Quick Draw need to be tweaked. You've got red hunters sitting at around -60% inductions (varies a bit depending on raid sets and traceries) all of the time. Heartseeker, a skill that has historically had an induction going up to 5s in duration now goes off in 1s. That's the biggest induction there is on the class. 1 second. The inductions on this spec range between 0.2s and 1s. The inductions fire off faster than regular skills do. You don't get any of the tension of "Well, do I actually have time to fire off this cast or do I need to get moving?"

I'm not suggesting that we go back to 5s heartseekers, that is way too long an induction. But this stuff should actually be inducted. Induction reductions need to go down significantly, a set-bonus for -10% shouldn't effectively be functioning as a 20% reduction (going multiplicative is also an option). It's rough when red hunters effectively have 2/3rds the induction time vs Blue/Yellow for most of the levelling experience because Quick Draw is out of reach. Stuff like quick shot should actually have a visible induction, doesn't need to be huge, it's spammable filler so probably ~0.75s (with reductions) is the spot to aim for as that'd be roughly in line with regular skill execution speed. Heartseeker should probably be going up to 1.5-2s induction (with reductions), it's the big nuke shot, it should have some build up.

Currently you're basically using the post skill animations as the actual attack duration on an induction skill, ideally you reduce the length of those animations. The induction itself should represent the time you need to be stationary for a cast, the post-cast shouldn't be included in that. Ideally you also allow movement during that post cast animation. Take Swift Bow as an example here, with Swift and True you get the induction time removed from Swift Bow and it becomes an instant skill which should allow it to cast on the move, instead you hit and you're still stuck rooted for the next second. Addressing this post-cast delay would go a long way to improving the fluidity of the spec whilst still fixing the induction problem.

[Joedangod]

Is Burn Hot still in its current position in red?

I don't think it makes sense for blue to be able to pick up reds DPS cooldown, especially considering they'd only ever be able to pick it up when they're close/at the level cap. Such a situation would leave them relatively underpowered in legendary servers and the like. There's a similar issue with Heartseeker, albeit that one is a bit less miserable since it's so high up in red that it only takes a minor dip.


Could Burn Hot possibly become a baseline skill picked up in the around level 40 with Capstones modifying it? i.e. in blue Burn Hot becomes "Burn Hot: Rapid Assault"?

[SSG_Orion]

On Nimble Fingers, the finesse is there, specifically, for trap consistency - though getting more finesse to consistently hit shouldn't be unwelcome.

On Decoy/Deadly Decoy, it could be made indestructible and simple explode on a timer. Maybe it would make more sense to have the Decoy become different variants. Decoy and Deadly Decoy. They could share a cooldown and do different things so that there would be utility to each variant.

Decoy - being the taunt version that extends its duration with Master Trapper. Better utility in small fellowship/solo play - when needed.
Deadly Decoy being the version that adds the critical chance buff after exploding. Better utility ins fellowship and raid play.

On Combat Traps, I could see moving this up to 2s per rank, but with the addition of explosive traps moving all traps to AoE effects, we need to be cautious with cooldowns.

On Endurance, I really do think that all the stances need to be updated. I'm looking at ways to update these this weekend.

On Danger Sense, I could see a modest increase to the daze and root, but a large boost would likely not work.

On Bard's Arrow, we will see where the numbers end up. It may be that the damage on bard's arrow does not need to come down.

On Advanced Placement, I can see this being +10-20m over the current 5-10.

On Master Trapper, given my comments above, Decoy might gain duration. The ommission of Triple Trap's damage boost was just a copy/paste error. I could also see Tripwire moving the knockdown duration.

On Distracting Shot, with the full trait and max tracery, you'd drop the cooldown to about 14s. It's conceivable that the new trait Improved Distracting Shot could see a 5s duration/rank improvement too.

On Trapper of Foes in general, there is a desire to push this trait tree a bit further and to allow the utilities to overlap. We will get there through testing, of course.

[SSG_Orion]

For Huntsman, I am going to start by asking the question. The larger responses to the alterations proposed for Hunstman are focusing on the addition of melee to the trait tree, and the fear that this would negatively impact the ranged mobility. That would not be the desired outcomes. That is why, for the most part, the changes to traits and set bonuses are adding melee aspects, not diluting the existing ranged mobility or damage. The one clear exception is the removal of Barrage. To adjust for that I would like to understand better, how most of you are using your current rotation. Could you share your current rotations for landscape, solo instance, small group, etc...?

On Impactful Arrows, this could also increase melee damage too, yes.

On Hunter's Voice, I could see a small boost to the shield too, yes.

On Shot through the Heart, I could see this affecting the melee skills too.

On Hunstman in general, therelikely does need to be another melee and the most obvious choice would be to return Blindside back into the arrow thrust through the enemy followed by a ranged shot. There might be a nice compromise here where the range on this skill is increased further than traditional melee skills. Oh, and all the melee skills will have their range unified to the standard distance for other melee classes. The strange disparity needs to be normalized.

Just to close this out, the goal with incorporating melee into this tree is to make it an additive aspect of the trait tree, with better benefit in longer fights - traditionally group play. A well-played version of Huntsman using the mix and match of melee and ranged skills should be roughly comparable, in damage output, with a well-played Bowmaster.

[Hephburz-2]

On Nimble Fingers, the finesse is there, specifically, for trap consistency - though getting more finesse to consistently hit shouldn't be unwelcome.

It's not a hill I plan to die on, I just still think it's still too much free stat when Hunters are already one of the best placed classes in terms of their stats because of Agility giving 1 point of crit, and Vitality giving 1 point of tactical mit.

On Decoy/Deadly Decoy, it could be made indestructible and simple explode on a timer. Maybe it would make more sense to have the Decoy become different variants. Decoy and Deadly Decoy. They could share a cooldown and do different things so that there would be utility to each variant.

Decoy - being the taunt version that extends its duration with Master Trapper. Better utility in small fellowship/solo play - when needed.
Deadly Decoy being the version that adds the critical chance buff after exploding. Better utility ins fellowship and raid play.

This would actually be very very good, and as such serve both functions well! A very neat idea!

On Combat Traps, I could see moving this up to 2s per rank, but with the addition of explosive traps moving all traps to AoE effects, we need to be cautious with cooldowns.

Understandable, 2s per rank would be better.

On Endurance, I really do think that all the stances need to be updated. I'm looking at ways to update these this weekend.

PLEASE!!!!!

On Danger Sense, I could see a modest increase to the daze and root, but a large boost would likely not work.

Again, understandable.

On Advanced Placement, I can see this being +10-20m over the current 5-10.

Also, PLEASE!!!!

On Master Trapper, given my comments above, Decoy might gain duration. The ommission of Triple Trap's damage boost was just a copy/paste error. I could also see Tripwire moving the knockdown duration.

What is the plan here regarding piercing trap, there was expressed discontent about the mitigation bypass, which I also agree with. I think it should retain it's current effect as it would fill a much needed missing aspect of Yellow Hunters support - off-healing. Perhaps a needed potency reduction though given the aoe aspect?

On Distracting Shot, with the full trait and max tracery, you'd drop the cooldown to about 14s. It's conceivable that the new trait Improved Distracting Shot could see a 5s duration/rank improvement too.

14s cooldown with 15s daze duration sounds.. "Ok", arguably the daze duration should still be in line with the long dazes of riddle and blinding flash however, but again, not a hill I'm prepared to die on.

Or did you mean +5s per rank so essentially 25s duration? If so this is definitely the better option.

On Trapper of Foes in general, there is a desire to push this trait tree a bit further and to allow the utilities to overlap. We will get there through testing, of course.

Final thoughts:

• Would it be possible to seperate the traps in triple trap, i.e. you have 10 seconds to place 3 traps and then the skill goes on cooldown, allowing you to place the traps at different locations rather than altogether?
• Some kind of reset cooldown skill that could reset the cooldown on all of your traps? Perhaps a 5min cooldown?
• Could you please increase the radius on Rain of Thorns to 20m? During boss fights when waves of adds spawn they don't always run together in the same direction or even at the same speed, it can be difficult to lock them down with a small radius.
• Armour Rend seems like it is still going to be underwhelming, with high enough finesse nobody b/p/e's anyway, this will probably be a "dead point" trait. Please consider changing to something else?
• Please do something with the +% Evade trait.

Offensively, given the aoe aspect of the majority of the traps, especially things like decoy + triple trap, you could potentially argue that the offensive capacity of YHunter would match up to, or even in aoe situations exceed the level of offensive support supplied by a Red Captain, which is not a bad thing, RCaptain has sat on it's lonely throne for far too long - however, these offensive aspects alone are probably not enough to yet compete for said spot - the line needs something else, I don't know what, but, consider all that a RCaptain can do and you will understand what I mean.

[Hephburz-2]

To adjust for that I would like to understand better, how most of you are using your current rotation. Could you share your current rotations for landscape, solo instance, small group, etc...?

It's been a while since I played blue in anything outside of Landscape, but mostly fights/encounters start the same way in Blue as in Red, you camoflauge, focus, HS your main target, and then depending on whether you are aoe or not you would either go into RoA + Split Shot, then applying barbed fury, blood arrow for exsanguinate, followed by QS spam whilst throwing in swift bow and barrages off cd or you go straight into barbed fury, blood arrow for exsanguinate, Swift Bow and barrage followed by QS spam (+ RoA for the DoT). There isn't much "rotational" aspect to Hunter, most of the time it is simply use every skill off cooldown whilst you can (except pen shot which you use simply for the debuff, outside of this it's a focus/dps loss) so you don't have to use quick shot, and when you have nothing else to use or absolutely need focus (which is less of an issue in Blue because you have no big spender like Upshot, which perhaps should be changed), use quick shot.

I could log on over the weekend and get you a blue parse breakdown myself or ask some of the other Hunters in kin to do one for here.

On Impactful Arrows, this could also increase melee damage too, yes.

On Hunter's Voice, I could see a small boost to the shield too, yes.

On Shot through the Heart, I could see this affecting the melee skills too.

Great to all 3 of these!

On Hunstman in general, therelikely does need to be another melee and the most obvious choice would be to return Blindside back into the arrow thrust through the enemy followed by a ranged shot. There might be a nice compromise here where the range on this skill is increased further than traditional melee skills. Oh, and all the melee skills will have their range unified to the standard distance for other melee classes. The strange disparity needs to be normalized.

I would argue against this, the ranged interrupt was one of the nicest changes made to Hunter in recent memory. An AoE Melee skill would be better.

[Elrohir_of_Kellemar]

I play two redline hunters. One is at cap level the other is 85. I use the yellow trap skill on both, but use blue line for my secondary traits. I much prefer the ability to stand in one spot due to my computer situation. My internet connection makes playing a mobile character too frustrating. I play mostly solo with my hunters so comparison to other classes is not something I worry about. Any skills to make Swift Bow or Heartseeker quicker to use is helpful. A constant problem is waiting for those skills to be usable since other skills generally don't deal enough damage to use on new, non-attacking foes. Once foes are able to reach a Hunter, the melee skills do a useful amount of damage, but, since there are only three useful skills, Dazing Blow would solve some problems if it were AOE. Note: I use Blindside as a melee skill so I may be over-estimating melee damage. Overall, I adjust to the changes that are made to a class, so I'm fine.

[Forgotten_Legend]

Huntsman's identity is mid-range mobile harasser. The intent with this change would be to enable them to move in an out of melee fluidly to maximize their contributions to group DPS, without impeding their landscape/solo efficacy.

Bowmaster is the classic stand and deliver style ranged damage dealer. A bit bland, but definitely efficient.

Trapper of Foes is supposed to be the hybrid AoE/CC unique spec line.

Certainly didn't expect to get warm fuzzies for this first offering on this option. I'm looking to start the discussion on where we, the collective we, want to move Hunter.

Out of the gate, Option #1 is supposed to start carving out identities: Huntsman is the skirmisher, Bowmaster is the backline DPS, and Trapper of Foes is the AoE/CC.

Yes. I want to modernize the class a little. Being able to move while using a ranged weapon is possible, but more difficult. Specialists - like the Huntsman - would ignore those difficulties but the other Hunters could benefit from being able to move. However, the incentive should be to reward the expected playstyle. Hunstman moving, Bowmaster stationary, and Trapper being a little tricksy.

So you can fulfill the role of a skirmisher that can be effective in melee as well as ranged.

for option 1, with more emphasis on being able to melee... i would move to re-add / re-theme the melee skills that were removed way back with the trait tree change. i for one really miss having those melee skills. it also makes we wonder what the point of extra melee damage is when we have so few ways to melee.

Also, huntsman and bowmaster, in my opinion, double up too much on what they provide: (ADDED) focus cost reduction / focus generation, induction reduction/ removal, AoE (with different skills, mind you) those AoE ranged skills feel more appropriate low in the trapper tree to be available to the other specialized trait trees.

i still don't know which i prefer, but i think i'm leaning into option 2

[kalil]

I was initially leaning to the # 2 option but as the blue line get's fleshed out # 1 may be the way to go. If dps will roughly be the same what will be the point of the red line? Since blue will have the heals and excellent movement in it's line.

[Joedangod]

I was initially leaning to the # 2 option but as the blue line get's fleshed out # 1 may be the way to go. If dps will roughly be the same what will be the point of the red line? Since blue will have the heals and excellent movement in it's line.

Playstyle.

You can either be the melee/ranged hybrid spec that needs to stay relatively close to perform its optimal DPS (with the option of ignoring all the melee stuff and being as effective as it currently is). Or you can be the long range, immobile turret spec. If the DPS is similar you can freely pick the one you enjoy more without concern about handicapping a group.

[Joedangod]

On Hunstman in general, therelikely does need to be another melee and the most obvious choice would be to return Blindside back into the arrow thrust through the enemy followed by a ranged shot. There might be a nice compromise here where the range on this skill is increased further than traditional melee skills. Oh, and all the melee skills will have their range unified to the standard distance for other melee classes. The strange disparity needs to be normalized.

For reference I believe this gives us the following:

Scourging Blow - 8s CD - Damage
Rupture Artery - 20s CD - Damage
Blindside - 18s CD - Interrupt
Dazing Blow - 20s CD - Corruption Removal/CC
Nature's Barb - 10s CD - Corruption Removal

Honestly kinda feels like Nature's Barb is a little redundant and that it'd be better off keeping Low Cut as a shorter CD AoE melee ability. Are you intentionally giving fairly long CDs to the melee stuff to nudge it towards short stints in melee as opposed to just staying there?

[Perks]

Oh, and all the melee skills will have their range unified to the standard distance for other melee classes. The strange disparity needs to be normalized.[/COLOR].

? What is the standard? You have some classes with 3.5m, Brawler with 4.2m, and then some with 5.2m. 3.5m is pretty abysmal to deal with movement mechanics as a melee btw and 5.2m is the sweet spot, so please dont make is 3.5m.

[SSG_Orion]

For reference I believe this gives us the following:

Scourging Blow - 8s CD - Damage
Rupture Artery - 20s CD - Damage
Blindside - 18s CD - Interrupt
Dazing Blow - 20s CD - Corruption Removal/CC
Nature's Barb - 10s CD - Corruption Removal

Honestly kinda feels like Nature's Barb is a little redundant and that it'd be better off keeping Low Cut as a shorter CD AoE melee ability. Are you intentionally giving fairly long CDs to the melee stuff to nudge it towards short stints in melee as opposed to just staying there?

TBH, improved dazing blow would likely be changed - we are trying to get the corruptions closer to the same level and where Nature's Barb fits better.

[SSG_Orion]

? What is the standard? You have some classes with 3.5m, Brawler with 4.2m, and then some with 5.2m. 3.5m is pretty abysmal to deal with movement mechanics as a melee btw and 5.2m is the sweet spot, so please dont make is 3.5m.

We are looking at trying to normalize at 4.2m base. Though that might not be the final decision.

[Joedangod]

TBH, improved dazing blow would likely be changed - we are trying to get the corruptions closer to the same level and where Nature's Barb fits better.

...could Barb replace Dazing Blow instead then? Just feels like Low Cut is an odd choice to replace.

[zipfile]

4.2m base.

5m for all classes to have their melee attack, anything else and it's horrible to play during fights that require movement and repositioning as well.
7m for all AOE skills would be a nice buffer.

Like, playing 3.5m class in Moors is absolutely horrible. 5m feels good.


#MakeMeleeFiveMeters

[SSG_Orion]

...could Barb replace Dazing Blow instead then? Just feels like Low Cut is an odd choice to replace.

If we're looking to set the corruptions at a certain level, no.

[wispsong]

Playstyle.

You can either be the melee/ranged hybrid spec that needs to stay relatively close to perform its optimal DPS (with the option of ignoring all the melee stuff and being as effective as it currently is). Or you can be the long range, immobile turret spec. If the DPS is similar you can freely pick the one you enjoy more without concern about handicapping a group.

Closer then now or as close as now? Because range becomes obsolete if we have e to be closer in blue when we are now. If blue hunter goes melee and red stays without mobility...hunter is gone for me. I rather have the lesser dps and keep what I have since I can't play melee.

[SSG_Orion]

Closer then now or as close as now? Because range becomes obsolete if we have e to be closer in blue when we are now. If blue hunter goes melee and red stays without mobility...hunter is gone for me. I rather have the lesser dps and keep what I have since I can't play melee.

Huntsman will not be a melee trait tree, it will be augmented by melee, but keep the core philosophy.