Hunter Update - Option #2

[bohbashum]

We move Hunstman to a utility line. This allows the inherent utility of blue to apply to both the Bowmaster and Trapper of Foe lines.

This is honestly great.

The hunter has 2 competing dps lines.
- Mobility as a traitline perk is not cool. People will always pick whats "Meta". Even RK is struggling with identity crysis between red and yellow, hunter will not be that loved and will stick to whatever group finds the higher dps at the end.
- Blue is far better as a passive line. Induction suck, standing still sucks, old fleetness was amazing. Why not give red hunters another line to dip into and allows them a cooldown to do that?
- A "Survival dps" line doesn't really work. It's basically a "Not good enough" line and will forever be behind. The current blue has that. You are going to struggle greatly to balance them without making one gross when content it favours dominates the meta from that point on.

You can not expect players to swap lines freely when LIs are so restrictive. Making the 2 compete doesn't really happen. So players may build blue line on live because it's better solo survival, then suddenly hit a brick wall end-game when they're told to switch to even be viable.

I'm not a fan of even entertaining blue as a line currently. Sorry.

Blue line should focus on Focus generation, Bleeds, Reducing induction
- Survival should really be on yellow more. That way R/y is a more viable option than just thinking about it as loweing your dps in R/b
- Both yellow and red like bleeds. However, yellow likes it more thanks to "Sustained" damage being nicer on CC/Debuff classes as taking your eyes off the prize to deal with something else is less damaging.
- Yellow still has inductions in it's "normal" dps rotation and a high focus cost to keep things up. If it wants real damage, it can go red, but it should be able to afford utility of blue to make it manageable.

0-5 Ranks
Nock on the Move
Induction based attacks can be used while moving.

I'm more a fan of fleetness becoming a skill again. Honestly, this should be further down too as a capstone of the line. Otherwise your just making all hunters lose induct on move as it's priceless.

A cooldown say 45s with 20s duration. Where you induct on move.

The gameplay of hunters "gotta get the right position" is contradicting to many instances, but the cooldown will give them best of both worlds and a skill ceiling to optimise it.

I don't want hunters to become kiting gods, they already are thanks to the CC they have and run speed buffs. They don't need permanent induct on move.

Scourging Blow
Grants the Skill: Scourging Blow

I'm not really sure this skill has a place. In red going into melee would be awkward. In yellow, you want to keep that bleed system going.

This skill could do somthing else than it's live purpose, but it's not wanted as is.

Split Shot
Grants the Skill: Split Shot

Split shot is pretty wild on live. It's giving back more focus than it costs. It's making Hunters prime nukers and ranged AoE'ers. This skill could absolutely get nerfed and still be perfectly viable.

Improved Intent Concentration
-30s Intent Concentration Cooldown

This skill is completely pointless with it's animation. If this is going to stay, can it be instant and give focus every 1s over the next 10s or somthing?

Rain of Arrows
Grants the Skill: Rain of Arrows

Similar to nerfing split shot, I like this subtle sorting out of Rain of Arrows to not dominate range AoE and range nuking.

Fleet of Foot
(Combines Fleetness and Improved Fleetness)
On every harmful skill, an additional 20% chance to increase run speed by 10% and gain 1 focus

Not a fan of this as mentioned before. Fleetness as a skill like old was better.

Random run speeds hunter has it making it a kiting god. in PvP it will be strong. It will make all PvE even more snooze fest. And it feels super steppy on toes of other mobile ranges dps (minstrel, RK) who's stick is attacking on move while not having this kind of buff.

Standing still should be seen as a punishment for hunters, but an easy mechanic they can play around with (as they have done for 16 years!).

Lore-master, Healers, are getting awkwardly thrown under the bus if hunters are also in that melee group of people who can easy avoid puddles because they zoom around the map because reasons.

The generic balance between ranged/melee should be melee are mobile and can deal with puddles on demand. Ranged however might get stuck for a moment. with puddle heavy game, you don't want to buff hunters even more in this table.

Precision
2 Ranks
Tier 1: Stance: Precision now generates 1 Focus every 4s
Tier 2: Stance: Precision now generates 1 Focus every 3s

Your treating stances like line=stance. Which shouldn't be the case. Please remove them from LIs too.

If you want to add in a really easy skill ceiling. Let hunters sudo stance (maybe increase cooldown to like 30s) dance there stances. The buffs they apply actually be useful. and reduce the difference between them.

Currently they could be removed for all I care because gameplay they don't mean anything. Set and forget, even the game keeps it on for you.

Bodkin Arrows
Removed

Time for some hate.

I don't mind hunter (and champ) have built in mitigation penetration. They're just too strong.

It makes them scale better is a group to more define there main purpose, damage.

Thats not to say they should be stacked like the are, and thats not to say it should be ungodly numbers. But if this went down to 0.5-2.5 it would feel small enough it's not that insane compared to now.

Plant Feet
Every 1.5s you do not move you earn a rank of Hold Ground
Hold Ground has 5 ranks
Hold Ground grants +2% Evade, Damage, and Critical strike chance at each rank
When you move, all tiers of Hold Ground are dispelled
When you critically strike, reduce the rank of Hold Ground by 1

Anything that tells you not to move completely is bad in my opinion.

I know this contradicts whats before but it's all in staging.

Inductions and *Forced* standing still *Forces* the player to work around it. It's an obvious downside to being ranged that melee can be more mobile.

The hunter can learn to work around this. Using focus spenders or non induction skills to move in windows of opportunity. There is no issue in this. Hunters have been doing it well for 16 years now.

However, when you now say "Standing still is optimal dps" now it curves. The whole party must work around the hunter to make sure they don't move. Puddle placement away. Whenever you move (which is fun) it suddenly feels bad becuase you lost your buff.

This again contradicts more conventional hotspots. However they are normally free to jump in and out, it's not a straight punishment. Brawlers get out of there tiny square to get back into it.

Plant feet should be a medium cooldown with a small hotspot for a short while like brawler. Not an always on, just bonus for knowing when your allowed to stand still.

Heck, even go crazy and let hunters hotspot buff other ranged dps (tactical+ranged) and don't let them stack so only 1 hunter is wanted

Trapper of Foes
Grants the Skill: Lingering Wound
Grants the Skill: Decoy
Traps can be used while moving and have no induction.

We need to talk about these 2 skills given the new concept.

Lingering Wound is focus heavy as is in yellow. You don't generate much to keep stacking the bleed up. With blue as passive it may make it easier, but, you've also got barrage there costing a lot. This will make focus management on yellow hunter an absolute nightmare, when it should be a nightmare for the dps version, this should be about stacking bleeds and debuffs. Focus should be easier, especially a super rotational mechanical skill to cashout when ready like lingering.

Decoy is bad for the reasons you don't really expect
- It's cool decoy grabs aggro from adds
- It's not cool it's inconsistant in how it applies it's debuff (because you have to pray the target stays next to the decoy when it explodes)
- It's not cool the decoy stuns targets near by and does damage, the main purpose of the decoy end-game is to move targets away and stun em, the decoy they ruins that

Decoy should be able to combo with explosive arrow to make the debuff + stun consistent. Allow explosive arrow to trigger the explosion, causing the damage and stun. If they don't use explosion, the decoy should just vanish without anything.

Rain of Thorns
5 Ranks
+10% Damage to Rain of Thorns per rank

Whyyyyyyyy

This skill is not for it's dps, it's for it's root, which is 90% useless.

This skill should apply traps inc damage debuff. That way the hunter has a way to AoE the +IncDamage debuff easier to large groups.

Honestly, the AoE root is actually not cool (and same with trap). I actually trapped some adds next to a healer once and the healer died because of it. If this skills even remotely useful with damage or debuff, the root is more of a hindrance than a bonus. I would rather a short 5s 75% slow.

Armour Rend
Requires Piercing Trap
4 Ranks
Penetrating Shot debuffs Target: -4% Physical Mitigation and .75% Parry, Evade, and Block Rating/rank
Piercing Trap debuffs Target: -2.5% mitigation bypass per rank

Absolutely broken. You've just moved bodkins to yellow hunter but made it for group. Hunter will now reduce targets mits by 14%? ot 18% physical and 14% tactical?

If Armor Rend is just 1/2/3/4% more than Penetrating Shots original you're cooking with a cool trait. But this is massive on a dodgy skill.

Harassing Shot
New Skill requries 20 Ranks in Trapper of Foes
Grants the Skill: Harassing Shot
Force taunts the target and forces the target to attack the hunter for 5s
Cooldown 15s

... why...

Survival Gear
Requires 25 Ranks in Trapper of Foes
6 Ranks - all remain the same

Very cool with this. (and can you push this to lore-master thread?)

It's insane how easily hunter gets mits from this trait so easily.

Debuffers should be tankier naturally (and why I'm pushing this to LM thread) but it should be tough to get. This means R/y can be the tanky dps suppy guy... Likely useful for PvP/Delving/Solo/3man if needed as flavour, but not really impacting the meta.

The One Trap
Now requires Piercing Trap otherwise unchanged

This is a really bad change, but lets just list out traps

Default trap is mostly useless in red's group content but has usage solo to cheese fights further.
Triple trap: OK Damage. Same as above but added +IncDamage debuff that is awkward: Not garenteed to hit your target, potentially not 100% up time, targets can evade them by moving while placed with lag, the root can actually be a negative (as detailed above) in groups.
Tripwire is a unique knockdown/knockout which stacks with other CC. Easily got by red. Again used in solo to cheese fights. Long enough cooldown not abused. Trap again not always your target.
Piecing: A weak dot, with a terrible HealOnHit debuff. Basically pointless slow.
OneTrap: A mid dot with a basically pointless slow.

Why limit the slightly better dot by the bad dot? They're the same and both bad.

This is without going into Hunters complete bloat of CC which needs to be addressed.
- Why does Hunters Cry even do CC? It's the Anti-Stun, leave it as just that and nothing else. And then a terrible bubble on top, and last it puts a run speed buff for reasons?
- Bards Arrow is good CC without line limit, if you want yellow as CC, red basically has it here.
- Dazing blow stuns, for some reason? Is a default skill.
- Distracting Shot, the perma stun skill similar to Burglar and LM, doesn't last long enough to perma stun... WHY IS IT 3MINUTES DEFAULT!
- Pinning Shot - WHY IS THIS A THING! Does the hunter not root enough!!! WHY IS IT IN RED!!!
- Low Cut root - AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!1!!11!!!

And thats the hard CC's... Slows are even stupider. And then you have to remember hunter has traps it can craft and use.

It's an absolute mess. And it's all pointless. It's all worse than burglars riddle and AoE twist in actual content.

Can you please review this? before terrible suggestions like this...

Emergency Preparations
Requires The One Trap
3 Ranks
Rank 1: After evading an attack you place a Set Trap in front of you
Rank 2: After evading an attack you place 3 Set Traps around you (Front, left and right)
Rank 3: Grants the Skill: Survival Preparation
Survival Preparation places a set trap in front of you, a Piercing Trap to your left, and a The One Trap to your right

This is so bad.

It's all the issues above with even more awkward stuff added on.

Stop. Keep it simple, please. It's a bad line, stop trying to make it "cool" and make it useful.


Suggestions:

You have to nerf the CC down and make it more focused.
- All Traps (Trap, Crafted Trap, Triple Trap, Rain of Thorns) no longer root and instead -75% run speed for 2s.
- RainOfThorns is also applies trap debuffs
- Dazing Blow reduced cooldown to 15s default, no longer stuns, trait in yellow reduce it to 2/4/6/8s. (Corruption removal utility)
- Remove CC, Run speed, Animation, and Bubble from Hunters Cry.
- Tripwire applies a short 10s -10% damage -10% crit chance debuff. 1min cooldown.
- Bards Arrow is now unlocked early in the yellow line and applies knockdown & Knockout at 1min cooldown
- Pinning Shot is now a yellow exclusive set bonus replacing 'Heightened Senses' which reduces the targets damage by 10% (30s, 12s cooldown)
- Piecing Trap is persistent for 4seconds on activation dealing damage to all targets who stand on it (similar to explosive arrow puddle). Deals damage each second and applies dot. 1min cooldown. Each hit applies 0.2/0.4/0.6/0.8/1% mitigation reduction for 30s with trait Armor Rend)
- The dot Piecing Trap applies is stacks of Lingering Wound and can be cashed out.
- Distracting Shot is now default 30s cooldown, tracery reduces this to 15s
- Low cut root removed
- Decoy no longer explodes by itself
- The OneTrap applies Trap, Piercing, and Tripwire in one place 3m cooldown.
- Explosive Arrow combos with traps:
- - Decoy, explodes the decoy, applying crit debuff and stun.
- - If Explosive Arrow is used on an un-activated trap (Trap, Piercing, Tripwire) it will preps the trap and piercing damage to be fire damage and buffed.

Replace Emergency Preparations with basically anything simple. CC hunter is so bloating even with these nerfs and changes, the new huntsment idea makes them a kiting god regardless. With any traps or stuns traited you can still CC fine.

Trapper of Foes picks up an ability where it can, with proper execution, keep a target locked down with a root for a longer period of time

Who struggles with that?

[SkyWarpPro]

I am strictly a solo player. And I have played strictly the fire-while-you-move line since it was first introduced.

So with that in mind, here are my thoughts on these two options.

My blue line seems to be fine. If we want to add more cool things to it, I am fine with that. Otherwise, not sure I need any changes.

But I understand many others have different play styles and needs for raids perhaps, so I understand some are interested in changes.

But if I were to take a stab at changes here is what I would focus on.

Two options:

Option 1) Turn Yellow into an extra trait area for the other two lines. Where Blue is moving while firing and Red is stationary with extra damage and range. Give Traps to everyone that way.

Option 2) Combine Red into Blue. Give Yellow Blues ability to fire while moving. Both lines can fire while moving. Yellow is focused on Traps (with a lot of improvements) and longer range while the other (Purple?) is heavy in Damage.

Hunter should be the easiest ranged class to play. That means very few skills should depend on other skills to work or perform better unless they are passively done.

Some skills I just don't find a use for or seldom use: Moving Target, Rapid Fire, Intensified Fire, Strength of the Earth, Press Onward, Quick Shot, Earthborn.

The one thing I really miss is the ability to purge poison while moving.

[Elrohir_Luinwe]

0-5 Ranks
Nock on the Move
Induction based attacks can be used while moving.

As someone who’s played a blue hunter since the trait trees were introduced forever ago, I think option 2 is the way to go. Red becomes the dps build and yellow becomes the cc build. I like adding split shot to yellow, gives them more aoe damage too along with explosive arrow.
But, the cool thing that blue had going for it was the no focus lost on movement, and now only high level yellows can do that. It’d be great to see that as a traitable option in the blue tree. Even if it wasn’t optimized, I loved playing the strike on the move mobile hunter. Never staying still in combat. You get a little bit of that with red if you take some blue traits, but it looks like you sacrifice too much. Red still wants you to stay still.
Overall, it looks like yellow got the best end of this deal, but they need it. So no complaints.

[iebecker]

Please leave the blue line alone. Despite the comments of some others here, not all players care about the "meta" (in fact, I suspect, as in most games, the players who actually do care are a vocal but tiny minority). As a solo player, the current blue line suits my preferred play style perfectly. Despite the supposed "weakness" of the class, I have played the entire epic story, and all the side quests, dailies, skirmishes, etc, that I want - all as a blue line hunter, without any problems. I don't raid, so I couldn't care less about the opinions on the raid viability of the line.

[Forgotten_Legend]

i echo what someone else mentioned: is it intended that Rain of arrows (in blue) and Improved ran of arrows (in red) are in 2 different trait lines? it seems really strange... especially considering that on live, Improved Rain of Arrows requires the basic Rain of Arrows trait.

would Strong Arm Sharp Eye still replace Strong Draw? on this option, SASE has reduced damage buffs compared to the other option. (I currently take both Strong Draw and Draw Weight in my build)

i'd hate to lose Bodkin Arrows, but it seems you're shifting some of the trait's damage to Impact Arrows and haemorrhaging shot (which has more synergy with bleed traits and traceries)

Plant feet: so, will there be 5 max stats of the buff. or 5 ranks to train the full trait, or both? the description is a not clear. due to the word rank having a double meaning: rank of buff, rank of trait.
EDIT3: i just realized you had another description of this trait in Option 1: Did you mean

Plant Feet

Becomes:

Every 1.5s you do not move you gain a tier of Hold Groung to a max of 5 tiers
Hold Ground effects are removed if you move, are out of combat for 9s
Hold Ground removes a tier on each critical strike
Hold Ground: +2% Evade, Damage, and critical chance per tier

Harrassing Shot looks good, but i selfishly want it lower in the tree for 3-man content , because it's interaction with beneath notice is akin to champions with their ability to taunt and reduce threat. it's great for DPS classes to be able to separate a single foe from the tank, or to lose threat to the tank. it could also open up some mechanics options for small group instanced content, or allow for different group makeups for dual-tank encounters, allowing a main solo tank, with enough others being able to redirect the debuffs directed at the tank.

EDIT: i also generally won't take damage buffs to Crowd Control skills, such as Rain of Thorns or Champion's Horn of Gondor... it seems like a waste of trait points.
EDIT 2: it would also be nice to add a trait high up blue, or another skill or buff, to stop removing focus from movement, or move the yellow trait down lower in the tree for those who like the skirmisher playstyle....

if i understand correctly, making blue a utility line reduces the costs of blue traits from 2 trait points to 1 per rank? (sorry, i don't play any of the classes that have previously reduced a trait line to utility status)

if blue becomes utility line, this would be a good time to remove some of the double-up of traits: blue line and red line both have traits that reduce / remove inductions; reduce focus cost / generate focus. and then add more melee skills (need to buy with trait points) in their place. (examples would be single target multi hit, like Champion's ferocious strike, or shing-shing like AoE with only one strike per target from main hand and one strike from offhand, or melee kick knockdown, or melee bleed, or riposte to reflect damage of a single attack)

speaking of doubling up on traits: there is a bleed damage-boost trait in both blue and yellow.

i think i'm still leaning toward this option due to all the doubling up between red and blue.

[Bushybrow]

If blue skills are more easily obtained, such as in the warden revamp where the yellow line is 1 point per in even off-spec, I would prefer this option over the first proposed.

Reason being, the blue line is not going to be competitive damage with the red line damage even after what's proposed in Option 1.

If we're going to open it up as a mobility and self-buff tree for the other specs, really open it up imo.

Blue line hunter is the way most players interact with the game for the vast majority of solo play while leveling up, and that's because you get to move across landscape and it just feels better to play. Opening that up in a meaningful way to all hunter builds and buffing the yellow line makes sense to me - I certainly wouldn't mind it as a hunter main.

Honestly, I tried the yellow line for a few hours around lvl 50 and hated it. But if it's getting buffed and mobile through cheap off-spec nodes in blue line, and there's still a red line for straight up bow skills... I think I would enjoy playing both red and yellow line. I don't super love the melee aspect of hunter, or the turret aspect of it. It's not very much in line with the legolas-like character fantasy either.

[Joedangod]

Reason being, the blue line is not going to be competitive damage with the red line damage even after what's proposed in Option 1.

The aim of Option 1 is to have it compete with red for damage.

[theultimatekyle]

The aim of Option 1 is to have it compete with red for damage.

Then it becomes damage vs slightly less damage but can move for identity of the lines. Which sucks. Bringing yellow into prominence feels better for the class than blue.
Then it becomes damage vs CC, and both can move.

[hfe]

I'm biased, because I play almost solely yellow, sometimes red.

How I view this is that there is more utility possibilities for yellow, but also red. So very much welcomed.

To me, it seems that the high mobility playstyle from original blue still remains, but will maybe see some skills changed. But what does blue line really bring to the board today?, except the 'enjoyable' mobility for solo play? Some pvp maybe. That still looks accessible to me.



Can we just forget this 3 points needed for extra out of combat run speed boost?


Yes, overall, I think this is a more feasible way than option 1.

What i would love to see is to either be mobile, or stationary, that there are two distinct pathways to follow. Maybe a return of the old hunter skill, agile rejoinder. Or trap response skills.

[Tepee]

As a prime supporter in of the removal of the Yellow spec in the Guardian thread, here, I'm not very convinced that this is the right option. Let's compare the two cases.

Guardian:

The current proposal of changes ensures the continued use of the currently live Yellow spec, but with an upside that you can spec into Red or Blue, and get the traits from both lines. Nothing, again, nothing will I miss if I want to play as a Yellow Guard, because I can just get everything I used to (with the change on Take to Heart, but that is an upside for me).

Guardians needed a buff in group play, and the Yellow-line debuff support provided the needed compensation for that the Red line damage lacks behind the Champion, and the Blue line tank lacks behind the Captain.

Yellow spec on it's own was useless in most cases, I mostly used to solo 3-6 men landscape stuff and I haven't got a decent 1h+shield on me, so I could use my 2h, and gain the survivability buffs there. The other option would be to go blue, I would easily (I would say more easily actually) solo the same stuff (with a shield).

In group play, Yellow was mostly useless, it was mainly used as a 3-men instance "waltz trough quickly" trait line.

All niche use cases of the Yellow line would continue on, and those who cry about the "loss" of it would not cry after they try the class after the next update.

Hunter:

The current proposal would not ensure the continued use of the present time Blue spec "meta" identity, which is run-and-gun, shoot on the go, AND not losing focus while moving. I'm very much against any changes on this class that would cripple any present uses of the class. There are two options you can do if you remove Blue spec:

1. Give a trait in blue for the focus loss on movement removal. This means that the current Blue line users (like me) would be Red line users, with heavy emphasis on Blue traits. Current meta is Blue spec->Red traits for solo anyways so what's my problem?
My problem is, that contrary to Guardians, Hunters do not need this kind of huge buff. This would mean that the Red "stationary sniper" would become run-and-gun sniper. A machine gun sniper. A machine gun sniper on a motorcycle. You know what I mean? Red has it's downside for that insane damage that is requires you to stay put. Yes, it is needed in group, but most of the time, you want to go waltz-Blue for landscape. (At least if you are not a boring player; or someone with a potato PC, that can't handle the run-and-gun, I heard it recently from someone. The same is true for Red-Yellow RK, but that is much more interesting and I can have reasons to go group Yellow and solo Red sometimes.)
This option would make Red Hunter the most insane, longest range, fastest running nuker class, that noone would want to play anything else. And judging by it's current popularity already, good like finding tanks and healers for your 4 Red Hunters...

2. Use your current proposal. This means that the only way to eliminate focus loss on movement is that you spec in Yellow, and dip into Blue. This would mean that Red line would be not 100 times better than any other class spec, but just 80 times... Other than that, if I want to use run-and-gun, my offensive abilities would be crippled, because I would have to spend traits on traps that I never wanted, and lose DPS because if I want to dip into Red line, it would be very expensive.
Or yes, I can do spec into Yellow, and not purchase a single trait, just buy Blue then Red. Would be cool right? Definitely no.
This option would indeed kill Blue line as it is. Compared to Guardian, where Yellow lives on almost 100% fully, this change would kill the Blue spec. And for Guardians Yellow spec was like 20-30% solo player's style. Blue Hunter is like 50-70% of solo players' style. This would cripple the Hunter player base.

Summary:

For me, keeping alive Blue spec (the other thread) is the way to go. I'm really surprised that I'm saying this, because I was a huge supporter of the Yellow spec removal on Guardians.
But Orion's proposed changes on Blue line got me excited, and I would really, really like to see that majestic Blue line he showed us there. Melee-Ranged run-and-gun, hack-and-slash, hell yeah. AND that change would not nerf anything in the current Blue meta. Well, technically, we would lose Barrage to Red line, but we would gain Lingering Wound instead, and I'm all for a nice bleedy-bleedy.
The proposed changes to the Yellow Guardian, when the plan was to keep it alive was like 90% less exciting, and the DPS-AOE-Debuff-Tank role was too much of a hybrid, that it was useless in any of these cases. On the other hand, Blue line is not a meta for group, and? If you play Red solo instead, you miss half of the class essentially, because Blue Hunter is the best solo experience in the entire game. Objectively. I mostly play my main Red Guardian, but when I switch to my second main Blue Hunter, I always feel that unique awesomeness. Don't take this away from us please.

Unless there is a better proposal on removing Blue spec, I will 100% vote for the other option.

[Joedangod]

Then it becomes damage vs slightly less damage but can move for identity of the lines.

No, the intention is for blue to do roughly equal damage for red. The gameplay distinction is that now blue will mix in some hit and run melee stuff in order to maximise its damage.

It’s ranged sniper playstyle vs melee/ranged hybrid “ranger” playstyle. They’re not intending for blue to be a lesser dps than red, they want it to be an alternative dps option with different gameplay.


As for the rest both options offered are trying to promote yellow, there’s just a little disconnect between players/dev at the moment regarding the exact role yellow Hunter should be (if it’s to be a yLM equivalent it’s still missing lore-equivalent skills and the reliable CC).

[theultimatekyle]

No, the intention is for blue to do roughly equal damage for red. The gameplay distinction is that now blue will mix in some hit and run melee stuff in order to maximise its damage.

It’s ranged sniper playstyle vs melee/ranged hybrid “ranger” playstyle. They’re not intending for blue to be a lesser dps than red, they want it to be an alternative dps option with different gameplay.


As for the rest both options offered are trying to promote yellow, there’s just a little disconnect between players/dev at the moment regarding the exact role yellow Hunter should be (if it’s to be a yLM equivalent it’s still missing lore-equivalent skills and the reliable CC).

No, the intent was never stated to be blue doing roughly equal damage to red. That's what you want it to be. What the stated intent is:

Huntsman's identity is mid-range mobile harasser. The intent with this change would be to enable them to move in an out of melee fluidly to maximize their contributions to group DPS, without impeding their landscape/solo efficacy.
...

Yes. I want to modernize the class a little. Being able to move while using a ranged weapon is possible, but more difficult. Specialists - like the Huntsman - would ignore those difficulties but the other Hunters could benefit from being able to move. However, the incentive should be to reward the expected playstyle. Hunstman moving, Bowmaster stationary, and Trapper being a little tricksy.

Devs have long stated red is the raid damage dealer. And ultimately, again, damage vs slightly less damage at slightly reduced range but moving, is a boring decision. Blue is redundant. If you have to choose between two lines, I'd rather choose between damage vs CC.

[Joedangod]

No, the intent was never stated to be blue doing roughly equal damage to red. That's what you want it to be. What the stated intent is:

Huntsman's identity is mid-range mobile harasser. The intent with this change would be to enable them to move in an out of melee fluidly to maximize their contributions to group DPS, without impeding their landscape/solo efficacy.
...
Yes. I want to modernize the class a little. Being able to move while using a ranged weapon is possible, but more difficult. Specialists - like the Huntsman - would ignore those difficulties but the other Hunters could benefit from being able to move. However, the incentive should be to reward the expected playstyle. Hunstman moving, Bowmaster stationary, and Trapper being a little tricksy.

Devs have long stated red is the raid damage dealer. And ultimately, again, damage vs slightly less damage at slightly reduced range but moving, is a boring decision. Blue is redundant. If you have to choose between two lines, I'd rather choose between damage vs CC.

Apologies but that's incorrect, as seen below. Granted the quote you linked doesn't actually say anything about their goal for damage output, merely that they want them to have different gameplay.

Just to close this out, the goal with incorporating melee into this tree is to make it an additive aspect of the trait tree, with better benefit in longer fights - traditionally group play. A well-played version of Huntsman using the mix and match of melee and ranged skills should be roughly comparable, in damage output, with a well-played Bowmaster.

[Hephburz-2]

No, the intent was never stated to be blue doing roughly equal damage to red. That's what you want it to be.

I don't know where you got this idea from, but that is not what has been stated by Orion about where the damage of the class should be, lol.

It's just as Joe pointed out.

[Eckenbrand]

How about we make the Redline the one that gets the axe and keep Blue and Yellow as the fully-fledged trees so the Hunter is always a mobile damage dealer and the Redline mains can suck eggs

[Forgotten_Legend]

re-quoted from Option 1 thread to re-close the debate on What Orion said about Huntsman vs Bowmaster

A well-played version of Huntsman using the mix and match of melee and ranged skills should be roughly comparable, in damage output, with a well-played Bowmaster.

my personal thoughts, is that this wouldn't apply to option 2, because of Huntsman becoming a utility line instead of a competitive line to Bowmaster, but option 2 is not live, it's a proposal, so i'd think that the quote is relevent to where SSG wants to the class to be at, and why both Option 1 and Option 2 are offered to the player base. Based on the feedback offered on the two options, SSG may have been pleasantly surprised to learn that many hunters actually prefer version 2 of option 1. (you have to read the whole thread to find all of version 2, or, currently, i've quoted version 2 all in one post , 2nd to last post in the thread.My guess, is that option 1 version 2 will probably become the new hunter, with maybe some iterative changes / improvements. i'm actually heavily leaning toward option 1 version 2 myself, now that iv'e actually realized it was buried in the thread.

[Celegorn_DE-Vanyar]

pls, remove the Pathfinder-Trait, ,more runspeed out of combat is only a quality of life buff, no one use the trait in group or raid. beos or warden have also strong ooc runspeedbuffs, so the hunter can also have the 30% runspeed without invest skillpoints for that.

[Andarlawen]

First - I play a blue-line hunter with some traits in red and yellow. Solo play 99% of the time.

1. If blue-line hunter will not be a specialisation, then how will the traits be accessed in the tree? What will that look like?

Pathfinder
3 Ranks
+5% Boost to Find the Path Speed/rank

2. Does that mean that there will be no 15% ooc run speed boost anymore? It would make running around more tedious...

3. And how will the nock on the move and fire on the run combo work? are they passives like stances?

4. Speaking of stances, do we still get those at all, with blue line no longer being a specialisation?

5. Just my personal opinion, but I feel that the yellow line trapper spec would be more adept at being a support line rather than blue-line. I can definitely see the yellow traits be used in combination with red or blue trees.

~Just my two cents

[Andarlawen]

I am strictly a solo player. And I have played strictly the fire-while-you-move line since it was first introduced.

So with that in mind, here are my thoughts on these two options.

My blue line seems to be fine. If we want to add more cool things to it, I am fine with that. Otherwise, not sure I need any changes.

But I understand many others have different play styles and needs for raids perhaps, so I understand some are interested in changes.

But if I were to take a stab at changes here is what I would focus on.

Two options:

Option 1) Turn Yellow into an extra trait area for the other two lines. Where Blue is moving while firing and Red is stationary with extra damage and range. Give Traps to everyone that way.

Option 2) Combine Red into Blue. Give Yellow Blues ability to fire while moving. Both lines can fire while moving. Yellow is focused on Traps (with a lot of improvements) and longer range while the other (Purple?) is heavy in Damage.

Hunter should be the easiest ranged class to play. That means very few skills should depend on other skills to work or perform better unless they are passively done.

Some skills I just don't find a use for or seldom use: Moving Target, Rapid Fire, Intensified Fire, Strength of the Earth, Press Onward, Quick Shot, Earthborn.

The one thing I really miss is the ability to purge poison while moving.

I second all these, though I find press onwards became very useful after ~ level 100, as is quickshot for weaker and quick attacks. It helps me balance my focus level while fighting.
I also don't mind the slight complexity of attacks, like for eg with exanguinate and blood arrow ????

[grizzly375]

I don't have any specific input to the skills - I'm a casual hunter at best. BUT, I LOVE the idea of making the Huntsman line the "utility" line, allowing inductions on the move to the other two builds. Much better than keeping three lines of which only one is ever really played.

I do agree that a force taunt on any hunter skill is questionable to me - just sounds like too easy for a yellow hunter to inadvertently make a group-wiping "oops" of aggro.

[Arnenna]

Option 2 is looking quite sweet. Not had time to completely digest it all yet, but what i've read, I like,

On the force taunt, not sure that is really needed. A hunter is capable of pulling a mob off the tank already, though, they don't plant it anywhere and usually have to run it back to tank.

[kalil]

Vote for option #2

[Hephburz-2]

Option 2 is looking quite sweet. Not had time to completely digest it all yet, but what i've read, I like,

On the force taunt, not sure that is really needed. A hunter is capable of pulling a mob off the tank already, though, they don't plant it anywhere and usually have to run it back to tank.

Vote for option #2

I would urge you both to look for Orions responses on page 2 and 3 of the Option #1 thread, for his plans have changed from what is seen in the OP of that thread.