AOE Aggro PLEASE

[JLotro]

The warden is close to being a decent tank now, but AOE aggro is much too low.
Attempting to hold aggro with geared champs and hunters around is just a mess.
It is giving the Warden tank a bad rap.

The radius of DC is too small, and the cooldown is too long IF that was to be our main
AOE aggro tool. Ideally our gambits should generate more threat in blue and DC could
be the backup move.

I think a reasonable fix would be to widen the DC radius, AND increase threat on our
AOE gambits. Any chance of this ???

[zipfile]

Lol

[Jakreal]

Lol

[infinitewhimsy]

....are you using Resounding Challenge?

[Thunderblast]

The warden is close to being a decent tank now, but AOE aggro is much too low.
Attempting to hold aggro with geared champs and hunters around is just a mess.
It is giving the Warden tank a bad rap.

The radius of DC is too small, and the cooldown is too long IF that was to be our main
AOE aggro tool. Ideally our gambits should generate more threat in blue and DC could
be the backup move.

I think a reasonable fix would be to widen the DC radius, AND increase threat on our
AOE gambits. Any chance of this ???

What gambits are you using?

Wardens have by far the best AoE aggro control in the game. Resounding Challenge is the main tool, but EoB, Conviction, Goad, War-cry, Deflection, let alone the Desperate Combat skills (which are literally a stack of 4 AoE taunts that can be used in quick succession) and Defiant Challenge all exist.

I'm quite frankly surprised that you're having so much trouble. Resounding Challenge should be one of the abilities you use frequently anyway bc of the massive radius and DoT, and EoB is definitely a survivability staple these days when fighting a lot at a time.


If you're having trouble getting aggro in the opening seconds of combat and don't want to spend DC right off the bat so that you can save the threat copy, you can do this (as long as you have the "RC" builds instant threat" traited):

RC (from battle prep) => (33) Goad => (32) (31) RC => RC (battle memory) => (11) Deft => (3) (23) (1) RC => RC (battle memory)

This builds an enormous amount of threat (RC x5 and a Goad for good measure) very quickly and gives you plenty of time before you need to use DC, at which point it'll be copying much more threat.

[JLotro]

What gambits are you using?

Wardens have by far the best AoE aggro control in the game. Resounding Challenge is the main tool, but EoB, Conviction, Goad, War-cry, Deflection, let alone the Desperate Combat skills (which are literally a stack of 4 AoE taunts that can be used in quick succession) and Defiant Challenge all exist.

I'm quite frankly surprised that you're having so much trouble. Resounding Challenge should be one of the abilities you use frequently anyway bc of the massive radius and DoT, and EoB is definitely a survivability staple these days when fighting a lot at a time.


If you're having trouble getting aggro in the opening seconds of combat and don't want to spend DC right off the bat so that you can save the threat copy, you can do this (as long as you have the "RC" builds instant threat" traited):

RC (from battle prep) => (33) Goad => (32) (31) RC => RC (battle memory) => (11) Deft => (3) (23) (1) RC => RC (battle memory)

This builds an enormous amount of threat (RC x5 and a Goad for good measure) very quickly and gives you plenty of time before you need to use DC, at which point it'll be copying much more threat.

Yes, warden is good aggro.... EVENTUALLY.
If you (not you specifically) are a tank with 1-click skills then you may "LOL", I understand how the the issue can be lost on you.
If you are warden tanking with only moderate DPS around then OK.
If you are tanking t1 where it does not matter if mobs run to a hunter for a few seconds then OK.

But, try a t3+ where loss of aggro means a dead hunter in 3-4 seconds. It's different now.

Yes, RC is a go-to. If 1 RC had enough to hold aggro a few seconds when a hunter hits hard right away
it would allow some time to pull off a couple more and keep up. But there are issues to pull off
several IN TIME, when half the mobs are running to hunters 30+ meters away. The idea of using 4+
to get aggro means that in the mean-time things are scattering. It gets messy QUICKLY.

DC (our fast 1-click) could be a solution when this happens, but the range/radius is too small (10m)
when ranged dps is... RANGED. I have a geared hunter and observe the same with other wardens.
Ranged dps even gets essences that extend the range (40m+?), making matters worse.
I think a consideration for the radius of DC could be informed by the ranges that hunters, etc, can operate from.

[Constrictions]

The warden is close to being a decent tank now, but AOE aggro is much too low.
Attempting to hold aggro with geared champs and hunters around is just a mess.
It is giving the Warden tank a bad rap.

The radius of DC is too small, and the cooldown is too long IF that was to be our main
AOE aggro tool. Ideally our gambits should generate more threat in blue and DC could
be the backup move.

I think a reasonable fix would be to widen the DC radius, AND increase threat on our
AOE gambits. Any chance of this ???

AoE aggro is fine.

Try this:

When anticipating having to pick up aggro:
1. Activate Battle memory,
2. Load up and use Deflection (traited to gain aggro) with Sh-Sp + Sp-Fi mastery
3. Use battle memory deflection
4. Use Resounding (traited for aggro) via builders Fi + Sh and mastery Fi-Sp
5. Use exultation of battle. If you use the yellow trait where builders reduce mastery cds, you should have Fi-Sh back at least, probably at least one other you can use.
6. If you have lost aggro, use taunt javeli nor defiant challenge

You should make sure to position yourself approximately in the middle of / between the group of mobs you want to tank for these gambits. Again, if you are anticipating picking up aggro, position yourself before they spawn / before you need aggro.

A key tip: Using these gambits in assailment turns them into ranged taunts that centre their radius on your target. If you need to get aggro from range but cannot position yourself easily, use the javelin version of the gambits.


You should be able to get a resounding and two deflections off within about 2 seconds, and exultation is a pretty good way to seals the deal. If this combo does not give you aggro without DC, you were never going to get it without DC anyway. Your team should, in this case, consider practicing some restraint to ensure you are able to actually pickup the mobs before they decide to go full monty on them. It helps if you have +aoe targets on your LI's, and then of course you can always use war cry and some of the AoE dots for damage aggro afterwards.

The days of turning on auto attacks and using war-cry + DC for permanent aggro are over, and they should never - ever - return. Aggro management is now a thing again once more (albeit, a pretty small duty).

If you are struggling to get and keep aggro without a force taunt/threat copy, it is no longer just your fault as the tank. Tell your fellowship/raid to hold back for 2-3 seconds - just like the good old days.

[Constrictions]

Yes, warden is good aggro.... EVENTUALLY.
If you (not you specifically) are a tank with 1-click skills then you may "LOL", I understand how the the issue can be lost on you.
If you are warden tanking with only moderate DPS around then OK.
If you are tanking t1 where it does not matter if mobs run to a hunter for a few seconds then OK.

But, try a t3+ where loss of aggro means a dead hunter in 3-4 seconds. It's different now.

Yes, RC is a go-to. If 1 RC had enough to hold aggro a few seconds when a hunter hits hard right away
it would allow some time to pull off a couple more and keep up. But there are issues to pull off
several IN TIME, when half the mobs are running to hunters 30+ meters away. The idea of using 4+
to get aggro means that in the mean-time things are scattering. It gets messy QUICKLY.

DC (our fast 1-click) could be a solution when this happens, but the range/radius is too small (10m)
when ranged dps is... RANGED. I have a geared hunter and observe the same with other wardens.
Ranged dps even gets essences that extend the range (40m+?), making matters worse.
I think a consideration for the radius of DC could be informed by the ranges that hunters, etc, can operate from.

A hunter sitting so far away and blasting newly spawned mobs straight away is not your fault as the tank. They completely deserve to die, and you should not feel like you have to apologize for their death. A gentle reminder that hunters often need to be reminded to turn on their brains.

An AoE force taunt with the radius the same range as a hunter is a complete joke. That has to be a satirical suggestion.

[JLotro]

A hunter sitting so far away and blasting newly spawned mobs straight away is not your fault as the tank. They completely deserve to die, and you should not feel like you have to apologize for their death. A gentle reminder that hunters often need to be reminded to turn on their brains.

An AoE force taunt with the radius the same range as a hunter is a complete joke. That has to be a satirical suggestion.

Hmm... you can see I did NOT say DC should have the same range as a hunter, but that it could inform the decision.
So, for example 10m (DC) vs 40m+ hunter... 1:4 ratio -- perhaps 1:3 would be a big improvement.
It really has to do with how fast mobs move out of range and the minimum time it takes to react.

[JLotro]

AoE aggro is fine.

Try this:

When anticipating having to pick up aggro:
1. Activate Battle memory,
2. Load up and use Deflection (traited to gain aggro) with Sh-Sp + Sp-Fi mastery
3. Use battle memory deflection
4. Use Resounding (traited for aggro) via builders Fi + Sh and mastery Fi-Sp
5. Use exultation of battle. If you use the yellow trait where builders reduce mastery cds, you should have Fi-Sh back at least, probably at least one other you can use.
6. If you have lost aggro, use taunt javeli nor defiant challenge

You should make sure to position yourself approximately in the middle of / between the group of mobs you want to tank for these gambits. Again, if you are anticipating picking up aggro, position yourself before they spawn / before you need aggro.

A key tip: Using these gambits in assailment turns them into ranged taunts that centre their radius on your target. If you need to get aggro from range but cannot position yourself easily, use the javelin version of the gambits.


You should be able to get a resounding and two deflections off within about 2 seconds, and exultation is a pretty good way to seals the deal. If this combo does not give you aggro without DC, you were never going to get it without DC anyway. Your team should, in this case, consider practicing some restraint to ensure you are able to actually pickup the mobs before they decide to go full monty on them. It helps if you have +aoe targets on your LI's, and then of course you can always use war cry and some of the AoE dots for damage aggro afterwards.

The days of turning on auto attacks and using war-cry + DC for permanent aggro are over, and they should never - ever - return. Aggro management is now a thing again once more (albeit, a pretty small duty).

If you are struggling to get and keep aggro without a force taunt/threat copy, it is no longer just your fault as the tank. Tell your fellowship/raid to hold back for 2-3 seconds - just like the good old days.

Will give deflection a try more. It's too bad Goad remains at only 6m range in Assailment.

[Elmagor]

The warden is close to being a decent tank now, but AOE aggro is much too low.
Attempting to hold aggro with geared champs and hunters around is just a mess.
It is giving the Warden tank a bad rap.

The radius of DC is too small, and the cooldown is too long IF that was to be our main
AOE aggro tool. Ideally our gambits should generate more threat in blue and DC could
be the backup move.

I think a reasonable fix would be to widen the DC radius, AND increase threat on our
AOE gambits. Any chance of this ???

Posts like this giving the Warden tank a bad rap.

[Thunderblast]

Yes, warden is good aggro.... EVENTUALLY.
If you (not you specifically) are a tank with 1-click skills then you may "LOL", I understand how the the issue can be lost on you.
If you are warden tanking with only moderate DPS around then OK.
If you are tanking t1 where it does not matter if mobs run to a hunter for a few seconds then OK.

But, try a t3+ where loss of aggro means a dead hunter in 3-4 seconds. It's different now.

Yes, RC is a go-to. If 1 RC had enough to hold aggro a few seconds when a hunter hits hard right away
it would allow some time to pull off a couple more and keep up. But there are issues to pull off
several IN TIME, when half the mobs are running to hunters 30+ meters away. The idea of using 4+
to get aggro means that in the mean-time things are scattering. It gets messy QUICKLY.

DC (our fast 1-click) could be a solution when this happens, but the range/radius is too small (10m)
when ranged dps is... RANGED. I have a geared hunter and observe the same with other wardens.
Ranged dps even gets essences that extend the range (40m+?), making matters worse.
I think a consideration for the radius of DC could be informed by the ranges that hunters, etc, can operate from.

I'm having a hard time picturing how this happens. So you run into the middle of the monsters and they stick to you by default (surely the Hunter isn't running at the front of the group). Then you drop your first RC (the one out of battle prep).

Then is the biggest delay, while you wait for the Goad animation to finish. In that ~1 sec space of time, let's assume the worst and say that the Hunter picks up a random monster. The monster has about a tenth of a second to get out of the radius of your next 20m RC. There's no way the monster pulls that off.

Then you double cast RC (one built from nothing but masteries, and one from the Goad potency). This will cause the monster that just turned around to fight the Hunter to turn around again and try to fight you.

This time you have to wait ~2 seconds before your next wave of RCs. Let's again assume that our worst fears come true and the confused monster again turns around to hit the Hunter. The monster again has very little time before your next RC double cast, and there's no way the monster can get out of dodge to avoid getting re-aggroed by you.

At this point, the fight will have been going for about 5 seconds, and in order for the Hunter to have been so efficient at aggroing this one monster, the Hunter must have been really busting a gut to deal some burst DPS. This means that the Hunter will be running low on focus, and you'll have a brief window where you can hit Defiant to get aggro for 10x which should be the next 50 seconds worst case. Since Defiant has a 30 sec cd, you should now be able to pretty much go AFK aggro-wise, at least on this particular monster.



If you're doing something else, it's definitely possible that the Hunter could peel a single monster off of you, but that's a pretty easy fix: just Warning Shot and the monster will be with you for a little while.

[the7hing]

The warden is close to being a decent tank now, but AOE aggro is much too low.
Attempting to hold aggro with geared champs and hunters around is just a mess.
It is giving the Warden tank a bad rap.

The radius of DC is too small, and the cooldown is too long IF that was to be our main
AOE aggro tool. Ideally our gambits should generate more threat in blue and DC could
be the backup move.

I think a reasonable fix would be to widen the DC radius, AND increase threat on our
AOE gambits. Any chance of this ???

Before pull cast /use Goad. Pre build resounding challange.
Pull with it, and you will have it stored in battle memory.
Dont use your defiant challange as 1st pull skill. Hit them with resounding, give 0.5 1 sec to dpsers to aoe them, then lock agro with defiant.
I guarantee you that you wont lost that agro, unless someone taunt them from you. Up to your next DC cd.
Also fierece resolve, resolution, and exulatation of battle are great for aoe agro.
If you stil experience some agro loss, or just want to play it safe you can always use 2 anger traceries - teal +gold
This is what i use, and i dont see myself changing it soon.




Wrd is already great tank, in 3m(best solo 3m tank imo) 6m grp, and also raid.
The only downside is lag.

Will give deflection a try more.

Dont. Deflection is good only to get attention of the new spawn mobs, wont help you with agro and its a waste of masteries, or tim, if you hard build it.
I try to sneak it in rotation, doesnt worth it at all. For same time you can switch stances and hit with DC /if they are at range.

[JLotro]

I'm having a hard time picturing how this happens. So you run into the middle of the monsters and they stick to you by default (surely the Hunter isn't running at the front of the group). Then you drop your first RC (the one out of battle prep).

Then is the biggest delay, while you wait for the Goad animation to finish. In that ~1 sec space of time, let's assume the worst and say that the Hunter picks up a random monster. The monster has about a tenth of a second to get out of the radius of your next 20m RC. There's no way the monster pulls that off.

Then you double cast RC (one built from nothing but masteries, and one from the Goad potency). This will cause the monster that just turned around to fight the Hunter to turn around again and try to fight you.

This time you have to wait ~2 seconds before your next wave of RCs. Let's again assume that our worst fears come true and the confused monster again turns around to hit the Hunter. The monster again has very little time before your next RC double cast, and there's no way the monster can get out of dodge to avoid getting re-aggroed by you.

At this point, the fight will have been going for about 5 seconds, and in order for the Hunter to have been so efficient at aggroing this one monster, the Hunter must have been really busting a gut to deal some burst DPS. This means that the Hunter will be running low on focus, and you'll have a brief window where you can hit Defiant to get aggro for 10x which should be the next 50 seconds worst case. Since Defiant has a 30 sec cd, you should now be able to pretty much go AFK aggro-wise, at least on this particular monster.



If you're doing something else, it's definitely possible that the Hunter could peel a single monster off of you, but that's a pretty easy fix: just Warning Shot and the monster will be with you for a little while.

If RC was able to hold for a couple seconds at first... but no, it is aggro over time. So, it is these first 5 secs that are problematic with high rdps.
Example:
I start with RC, then half second later the hunter(s) 25-35m away hits RAIN.
If hunter is geared they almost ALWAYS pull some away (more than 1). Goad maybe, but mobs only need to run a measly 6m to be out of range of goad. If I
DC I get them back, but I blew DC which I would rather save for an emergency. The geared AOE hunter creates a need for me to use DC as more of a norm.
Asking hunter to chill a bit helps, they don't like that. If goad and DC had a bit more range it would be smoother. Not talking about ridiculous range, probably
in the 12-15m range would work.

[the7hing]

If RC was able to hold for a couple seconds at first... but no, it is aggro over time.

Put point at Undeniable Challenge ? Spaming 2 will give you like 3 sec / vs every dps.

[JLotro]

Posts like this giving the Warden tank a bad rap.

...wondering if you ever have useful days.

[the7hing]

If RC was able to hold for a couple seconds at first... but no, it is aggro over time. So, it is these first 5 secs that are problematic with high rdps.
Example:
I start with RC, then half second later the hunter(s) 25-35m away hits RAIN.
If hunter is geared they almost ALWAYS pull some away (more than 1). Goad maybe, but mobs only need to run a measly 6m to be out of range of goad. If I
DC I get them back, but I blew DC which I would rather save for an emergency. The geared AOE hunter creates a need for me to use DC as more of a norm.
Asking hunter to chill a bit helps, they don't like that. If goad and DC had a bit more range it would be smoother. Not talking about ridiculous range, probably
in the 12-15m range would work.

So you use DC RIGHT after first AoE skill of your DPS. As i told you this will lock them for like 30 sec.
For emergency/ new spawning mobs you have DC. Also there is no way to lost ST agro, just troll st taunt at your rat. Use gambit builders to reset your taunt, even if your gambit is build up already, no harm to hit one extra gambit builder just to reduce your warning shot.
Warden is the best aoe tank atm. Way better than guardian. Second best at solo tanking beaten only by cpt / because of combat ress, but providing more fellow heal + dmg boost than cpt. If you have a problem, be sure is not the class. Try diferenct skill combination. As said, the only reason to fail as wrd is the lag.

Here is the build i use. You are free to copy.

[JLotro]

So you use DC RIGHT after first AoE skill of your DPS. As i told you this will lock them for like 30 sec.
For emergency/ new spawning mobs you have DC. Also there is no way to lost ST agro, just troll st taunt at your rat. Use gambit builders to reset your taunt, even if your gambit is build up already, no harm to hit one extra gambit builder just to reduce your warning shot.
Warden is the best aoe tank atm. Way better than guardian. Second best at solo tanking beaten only by cpt / because of combat ress, but providing more fellow heal + dmg boost than cpt. If you have a problem, be sure is not the class. Try diferenct skill combination. As said, the only reason to fail as wrd is the lag.

Here is the build i use. You are free to copy.

Hey Thanks - I experimented with having Conviction rolling right before the pull with RC and it seems to be an improvement.
Lag may be a factor. Some people seem to be saying that they can pull off 4 gambits in a couple seconds, but in my experience
the UI response is too slow for me to achieve that (though it is much better than it used to be).

[Constrictions]

Dont. Deflection is good only to get attention of the new spawn mobs, wont help you with agro and its a waste of masteries, or tim, if you hard build it.
I try to sneak it in rotation, doesnt worth it at all. For same time you can switch stances and hit with DC /if they are at range.

Deflection is good because of the much shorter animation time.

I counted that if you prepared the gambit in BM and loaded it up before a mob spawn such that your masteries were mostly back off cooldown, you could use both deflections and half load up a single RC in the time it would take you to have started building a second RC in the case you wanted to use that first. I also have not noticed a significant difference in aggro generation between these two methods. The other thing to note here is that between builders reducing mastery cds and deflection/RC only sharing one mastery, it's not unfeasible to run both in a short aggro rotation.

As a disclaimer though, I have not yet actually run a simulated test to determine how much aggro deflection generates vs RC, so happy to admit that what you suggest is better if thats what turns out to be the case.

If that were the case though, I think this would just help to show how much of a non-issue aggro is right now.

[Kander]

At start of fight you can throw 3x RC + EoB in virtually 2s.
I must admit my finesse is low for t4+ and I'll need to fix it, since that's the only way I lose aggro cause with the same team in t2 I don't even have to use taunts.

Charge BM, build RC, then while animation is happening, battle prep won't fade away if you use masteries, so first mastery won't get into cd, you build fi-sh + fi-sp right after firing first RC, which is another, then use it, use battle memory, build EoB with fist builder + sp-sh + fi-sh (that didn't get in cd before), right after you can even use another RC by fist builder + sh-fi + sp-sp (all out of cd) and it takes 1s max per gambit, it's 6s at start and you use 4 RC + 1 EoB + Passive heal aggro from EoB. If no resists that combo will keep aggro of absolutely everything except if group is focusing one target with buffs + OB + cds, for which you have defiant challenge or warning shot, that amount of previous aggro, the aggro copy is more than enough for something like 100M morale worth of damage, which won't happen again before you have another taunt so...