Why not convert Shadowfax into a regular server and change the name?

[DavidWe]

I was wondering, why not simply keep Shadowfax as a regular server, but change the name to Waymeet or something like that? With the lag issues still interrupting gameplay, would another server help?

[SniperCT]

They'll do what they did with Ithil and Anor, repurpose the hardware for future gimmick/legendary servers.

And Shadowfax typically has like..30 players on at any one time. Not worth keeping live and quite frankly should have been shut down a year ago.

[istvana]

Much as I love Shadowfax its time has run out. A regular ruleset server with 30 non-anonymous players will not help the game. People complain that some of the regular servers that typically have 400 or 500 or more on are too dead for them (though I do not feel that way at all).

No Shadowfax should NOT have been shut down a year ago. Letting people know that if a new progression server is set up they can count on it staying alive until it hits the current level cap is important. Shut them down early as population decreases (and population always does decrease after some of the most popular expansions like Moria and Isengard) and you tell people that Treebeard doesn't have the years left that people there are counting on - might as well leave the game. And any new legendary server that replaces Shadowfax may only have a year or two so no point in bothering with it - might as well leave the game.

[SurrealStorm]

It needs a twist, and what they should have done with Anor IMHO; Make it a VIP Only live server.

That way it can keep the vip features, provide a place for all other VIP Legendary servers to transfer to when they finish (if they don't want to go live), and is another benefit for VIP Subs, encouraging others to subscribe. As they cycle through legendary servers, the population will go up, heck, probably go up just by being a permanent server. Also providing a better experience (than current overloaded live servers). I'll be honest, I don't look forward to the severe lag and gold spammers that are prevalent on live servers today when I've had years of a great experience with the game.

Also I want to say, if they are using actual hardware to run these servers they are doing it wrong, very very wrong (I could go into deeper details about the server likely being singe threaded and not benefit much from todays physical hardware, but greatly from virtual; but I won't ). Server scenario for running this servers very much lends itself to running as VM's in which case the 'hardware' repurposing is nil. The cost comes to keeping it supported and updated weekly, as it's another server they have to keep patched 'etc 'etc.

While I don't think SSG has any interest in doin anything like this, it would be a great option to have when it comes to transfer (or not trannsfer) times.

PS: I also hope they are keeping track of the 'Reward Track' timing when doing this, as forcing people to switch servers in the middle seems.. not ideal.

PPS: I am a bit biased.

Aeshael
Kin Leader
Warg Party Bus
Shadowfax

[auximenes]

A VIP-only server is something I'd support, even if I don't really want to transfer off of Landroval. I think it would offer a better player experience.

[istvana]

I would love a new VIP only server. Fresh start servers are popular in many games. It could have a "twist" to it - some special advantage that no other server has to attract and keep people (I won't speculate as to what it could be).

Something like this could even happen - we are down soon to one legendary server and a second would be good. The Valar have never dictated that a legendary server MUST be a progression server.

But keeping Shadowfax which would not be a fresh start server - no that won't attract many people to supplement the few on it now - many of whom are eagerly awaiting the free transfer so they can leave.

[SurrealStorm]

I would love a new VIP only server. Fresh start servers are popular in many games. It could have a "twist" to it - some special advantage that no other server has to attract and keep people (I won't speculate as to what it could be).

Something like this could even happen - we are down soon to one legendary server and a second would be good. The Valar have never dictated that a legendary server MUST be a progression server.

But keeping Shadowfax which would not be a fresh start server - no that won't attract many people to supplement the few on it now - many of whom are eagerly awaiting the free transfer so they can leave.

Perhaps, but having a Live VIP Server, say... No XP changes from live, but include the other Legendary Server perks (Deadly 'etc) would be great.

Whether they turn Shadowfax into that server or not, it'd be great to have before we're forced to transfer off.

Aeshael
Kin Leader
Warg Party Bus
Shadowfax

[maartena]

I was wondering, why not simply keep Shadowfax as a regular server, but change the name to Waymeet or something like that? With the lag issues still interrupting gameplay, would another server help?

They are likely going to use the resources currently used by Shadowfax to open up a NEW Legendary Server of some sorts. It was hinted in one of the recent developer streams (a few months back) that more legendary servers would be coming in the future, maybe even this year.

So I would not be surprised that Shadowfax gets its 3 months for level 140 (or LESS like they did with Anor), everyone gets to transfer off for free, and they they wipe that server and re-use it for whatever next Legendary-ish server they will have come up with.

[Elmagor]

They are likely going to use the resources currently used by Shadowfax to open up a NEW Legendary Server of some sorts. It was hinted in one of the recent developer streams (a few months back) that more legendary servers would be coming in the future, maybe even this year.

So I would not be surprised that Shadowfax gets its 3 months for level 140 (or LESS like they did with Anor), everyone gets to transfer off for free, and they they wipe that server and re-use it for whatever next Legendary-ish server they will have come up with.

New Legendary server will suffer same fate as Anor, Ithil, Shadowfax and Treebeard. Maybe they need have brainstorm before creating new server and add something new to keep people

[maartena]

Also I want to say, if they are using actual hardware to run these servers they are doing it wrong, very very wrong (I could go into deeper details about the server likely being singe threaded and not benefit much from todays physical hardware, but greatly from virtual; but I won't ).

They are running a hybrid. Database servers running PostGRE SQL are running on bare metal hardware because of the performance needed for those. A few other critical servers might also run on bare metal, but I think it is just the high-performance database servers. Then the rest of the servers are mostly virtualized, and have been since 2015. (Before that, they did run on bare metal as well, but when the game was developed in 2004-2007, virtualization was in its infancy.)

As for bare metal vs virtual: Both have their unique advantages and disadvantages. A database cluster with multiple servers can tolerate a reboot of one of the servers just as well as a virtual environment on VMWare, KVM, or whatever..... but you can still take advantage of direct hardware access which is critical on high-performance databases. The disadvantage is that you cannot get flexible with resources, and you can't spin up a templated server within minutes, it is going to require a bare metal install. But for something like a database cluster, you can easily have 4 beefy servers in a cluster all of which are load-balanced and synced between eachother, and when it comes to doing updates/upgrades or hardware failures, you can take one down without affecting any downtime whatsoever. They all have copies of the same database storage, and when the 4th server comes back up it just syncs the DB back up, and re-joins the cluster.

So I would disagree with you that running servers on bare metal hardware us "doing it very very wrong" because it completely depends on the scenario.

Most game world servers are running on virtual machines however, and it is much easier to spin up or spin down resources as needed. You can also clone a VM much easier before you do extensive maintenance, so you have a copy to revert to. I would not at all be surprised that is step one after the servers are down, make a few clones just in case..... that is where virtualization is powerful. I do this myself, when a certain program that isn't Microsoft's needs an update, I clone the machine first. God knows I have had to revert to an earlier copy more than once because the 3rd party software patching system is buggy and might fail.

[maartena]

New Legendary server will suffer same fate as Anor, Ithil, Shadowfax and Treebeard. Maybe they need have brainstorm before creating new server and add something new to keep people

Perhaps. But they all had the same popularity: Level 50 cap, level 60 cap, level 65 cap....... and maybe even the level 75 cap were popular and busy on all the Legendary servers, because people wanted to re-live the olden days, or at least the best alternative to the olden days. After that however..... popularity declined fast. I had EIGHT toons at level 50 and 60, because those were FUN levels..... I managed to get ONE character to level 75, and lost interest after that on all servers.

It is the "fresh start" that draws in a lot of people. LOADS of people in newbie zones, no one has anything or any money, crafting and the auction hall matter once more, prices are way, way down because no one has gold, and doing some of these old raids at level 50 or 60 is a whole different grouping experience and just very fun.

There is a very high chance that once a new server is launched, that I WILL be taking part in one..... but I do agree that they need to figure out how to keep people engaged. I think they have left the legendary servers mostly neglected. They made changes to loot tables and difficulty settings when they launched to level 50, and then again at level 60..... but by the time Mirkwood rolled around they sort of neglected the legendary servers, and there wasn't anything enticing to stick around. No new titles, no special events, nothing that VIP-like servers in other games have, which basically is the VIP treatment.

I think in order to remain successful, they should keep being engaged with the server, and not just stop developing for it after level 75 or so..... Major graphics updates may also happen. If a "big" graphics update is still in the works, perhaps they could launch those updates simultaneously with a new legendary server, starting with updates to Ye Olde Eriador first.....

[istvana]

There are many possibilities that they have not tried yet. Perhaps with their experience with the four legendary servers they have had they will decide to go in a somewhat different direction next time. In no particular order, and without saying I would want any of these I will list some approaches taken by other MMOs.

1. Normal server ruleset but VIP only. Would attract people liking a fresh start. Would give hope that it could be a "permanent" server not one that we knew would go bye-bye when it reached the then current level cap. Would attract people that like the idea of having all VIPs. Would maintain the idea of encouraging subscription by giving VIPs more options. Would cannibalize existing servers but that is true of *any* new server.

2. LOTRO not-really-classic. Permanent level 50 or level 75 cap not a progression server. Current game design not truly classic since that seems not to be feasible for them. Maybe take out some "current game" features that all the legendary servers have had such as missions or delvings.

3. Fresh-start server. Not necessarily any differences at all in ruleset. IMO not a likely approach since it offers no incentive to players other than being fresh start.

4. Roleplaying server. They dropped whatever enforcement they once had of naming and other special rules because of all the mergers. A new RP server could have those rules. Maybe the least likely of all possibilities.

5. Special ruleset server. Free-trade has been done in some other MMOs. More attractive to many people here - a group-focused ruleset. Make mobs too hard to easily solo at any level for which they give xp. Or give a large xp reduction for soloers or small groups. Not a place I would go but many people complain that "no one groups" on the normal servers.

[SurrealStorm]

So I would disagree with you that running servers on bare metal hardware us "doing it very very wrong" because it completely depends on the scenario.

Yea it does, but I think this particular scenario justifies the comment. Database aside. This is server code from 16 years ago, likely not very multi-threaded friendly, says to me, the best case scenario for these servers if virtual. Which, to the point I commented above with, leaves the compute resources at least as a pretty nominal lift.

Most game world servers are running on virtual machines however, and it is much easier to spin up or spin down resources as needed. You can also clone a VM much easier before you do extensive maintenance, so you have a copy to revert to. I would not at all be surprised that is step one after the servers are down, make a few clones just in case..... that is where virtualization is powerful. I do this myself, when a certain program that isn't Microsoft's needs an update, I clone the machine first. God knows I have had to revert to an earlier copy more than once because the 3rd party software patching system is buggy and might fail.

Right, especially with as old and (presumably) spagettified the server code for lotro has become. Like I said above even more so the likely lack of SMP.

So I don't think the 'hardware cost' is the issue with keeping these servers up (the original point). More likely any man power keeping them updated and maintained.

However the downside is I think a lot of people, NOW knowing these servers are only temporary, may be less likely to partake.

Aeshael
Kin Leader
Warg Party Bus
Shadowfax

[istvana]

"However the downside is I think a lot of people, NOW knowing these servers are only temporary, may be less likely to partake."

A valid point but I think quite a lot of us believed Shadowfax and Treebeard would go away after they hit the current level-caps when we decided to play there. A good home for a number of years is not a trivial inducement especially since we also believed that we could transfer off for free at the end and not lose a thing over having spent the same years on a different server. In fact that is surely one reason Treebeard was more popular than Shadowfax - it was set up to stay alive a lot longer because of slow progression.

Also this point only applies if the next new server is a progression server. Many MMOs have subscriber only servers (not that SSG needs to stick with VIP only) that are not at all progression servers.

[Frisco]

Perhaps. But they all had the same popularity: Level 50 cap, level 60 cap, level 65 cap....... and maybe even the level 75 cap were popular and busy on all the Legendary servers, because people wanted to re-live the olden days, or at least the best alternative to the olden days. After that however..... popularity declined fast. I had EIGHT toons at level 50 and 60, because those were FUN levels..... I managed to get ONE character to level 75, and lost interest after that on all servers.

It is the "fresh start" that draws in a lot of people. LOADS of people in newbie zones, no one has anything or any money, crafting and the auction hall matter once more, prices are way, way down because no one has gold, and doing some of these old raids at level 50 or 60 is a whole different grouping experience and just very fun.

There is a very high chance that once a new server is launched, that I WILL be taking part in one..... but I do agree that they need to figure out how to keep people engaged. I think they have left the legendary servers mostly neglected. They made changes to loot tables and difficulty settings when they launched to level 50, and then again at level 60..... but by the time Mirkwood rolled around they sort of neglected the legendary servers, and there wasn't anything enticing to stick around. No new titles, no special events, nothing that VIP-like servers in other games have, which basically is the VIP treatment.

I think in order to remain successful, they should keep being engaged with the server, and not just stop developing for it after level 75 or so..... Major graphics updates may also happen. If a "big" graphics update is still in the works, perhaps they could launch those updates simultaneously with a new legendary server, starting with updates to Ye Olde Eriador first.....

They all had the same popularity, yes--about 6 months worth. By the time Moria ended, server population peaked at fewer than 200 on Anor and Treebeard. Much lower on the other two.

That said, they could probably relaunch more of the same. It's almost no work, and there will always be people who rush over for the "fresh start" and spend a bunch of money. Though their pool of suckers is running almost dry after most of the likely players getting burned by the first two rounds.

A better bet would be more special event servers like Bombadil.

[SurrealStorm]

A valid point but I think quite a lot of us believed Shadowfax and Treebeard would go away after they hit the current level-caps when we decided to play there.

I know I didn't, and most of the people I know of didn't, heck at the time nobody knew Anor would close. However for me I was just getting back into the game after a 12 year hiatus.

A good home for a number of years is not a trivial inducement especially since we also believed that we could transfer off for free at the end and not lose a thing over having spent the same years on a different server. In fact that is surely one reason Treebeard was more popular than Shadowfax - it was set up to stay alive a lot longer because of slow progression.

I guess it'd be easy enough to prove by news or forum posts somewhere from around 2 years ago saying they were temporary? *shrugs*

[quote]
Also this point only applies if the next new server is a progression server. Many MMOs have subscriber only servers (not that SSG needs to stick with VIP only) that are not at all progression servers.

That would be pretty cool, but it would rely heavily on the idea(s) they have for the server(s).

Aeshael
Kin Leader
Warg Party Bus
Shadowfax