Confused about Amarthiel/Narmeleth *Contains Spoilers*

[Cerridwen]

Did Amarthiel exist separate from Narmeleth or was Amarthiel the name Narmeleth used after she crafted Narchuil? The video, Daughter of Strife, says that after crafting Narchuil, Narmeleth fell into madness allowing the spirit of Amarthiel to overcome her. During the books, we learn that Amarthiel was defeated at Fornost and Laerdan broke Narchuil in two. We also learn that at some point after Fornost, Narmeleth is imprisoned by Laerdan at Sithad and he hopes to restore her to her former self. The books also mention that Narmeleth is freed from Amarthiel after witnessing Laerdan's death.

So I'm confused. The video makes it sound like Narmeleth was possessed by Amarthiel's spirit, which would make them two different people. But the imprisoning of Narmeleth after Fornost (how long after because if they are two people Narmeleth would have been possessed after Amarthiel was killed at Fornost) suggests that they are the same person and this was Narmeleth under the spell of Narchuil. As for the part where Narmeleth is freed of Amarthiel's spirit after her dad's death, that can go either way.

[Lara69690]

I just finished the volume 1 epic storyline and I interpreted it to mean that Amarthiel was possessing Narmeleth's body. Narmeleth was obviously still there, just pushed to the side.

Narmeleth herself was tricked to come away from the safety of her father and forge Narchuil which made her vulnerable to Amarthiel and the ring's power.

At least that's what I think about it all.

[Yula_the_Mighty]

Amarthiel is a spirit. Mostly likely a fell spirit like the one that has entered the woman in Fields of Fornost. Amarthiel and Narmeleth live in the same physical body. Sometimes Amarthiel is in charge. Sometimes Narmeleth is in charge.

As you go through the Epic you find out that Laerdan is afraid of Elrond and the Rivendell elves. Laerdan wants his daughter Narmeleth back. He is concerned if he asks for help, they are going to say - We can not get Amarthiel out of your daughter's body. We not letting the Amarthiel + Narmeleth combine wander around. We going to kill her. That will get rid of Amarthiel. Too bad for Narmeleth.

[erikthe10man]

Amarthiel is a spirit. Mostly likely a fell spirit like the one that has entered the woman in Fields of Fornost. Amarthiel and Narmeleth live in the same physical body. Sometimes Amarthiel is in charge. Sometimes Narmeleth is in charge.

Unlike Tomax and Xamot, who are two different people who feel the same pain.

[CWood]

Amarthiel is a bad guy (well, bad girl). Narmeleth is the stuff you put on toast with butter. Really yummy. Especially orange.

[Graythandor]

I've always thought Amarthiel was the corrupted persona of Narmaleth under the influence of Narchuil, much like the glimpse we get of Galadriel as a fearsome goddess when she is tempted by The One Ring.

[GEARS1980]

I took her as an elf version of Gollum, one mind splintered and twisted by a ring high gone bad. Although, I don't think that Tolkien would have approved of an elf gone so far bad, even Feanor, at his worst, harmed his fellow elves out of spite for anyone that got in the way of his greed and a strong vengeful hate of Melkor. I just don't see Tolkien approving of an elf throwing in their lot fully with Sauron, especially after how he wrote of the elves reaction when he first put on the ring of power, knowing Sauron instantly for who he was, and shunning him. That... would however give a boost to the "she was possessed" interpretation. But I didn't note anything when I was doing the books to make me realize she was possessed. It's been pre-Moria since I finished those books though, a long time.

Perhaps it was a bit ambiguous on purpose, leave it to the reader.

[brasswire12]

I've always thought of them as the same person, like Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader.

[robnkarla]

I've always thought Amarthiel was the corrupted persona of Narmaleth under the influence of Narchuil, much like the glimpse we get of Galadriel as a fearsome goddess when she is tempted by The One Ring.

As well as Gollum/Smeagol. I could be completely wrong, but I viewed it as the persona that came about from the corruption of Narchuil.

[kerryak]

Amarthiel is a bad guy (well, bad girl). Narmeleth is the stuff you put on toast with butter. Really yummy. Especially orange.

That's what made the cage-fight between Nutella, Peanut Butter, Vegemite, Kraft Singles, Jam, and Narmeleth so epic.



And man did Vegemite get it's butt kicked.

[Blackadar]

I saw her as two sides of the same coin and that Amarthiel was just Narmeleth corrupted by the ring.

[Yula_the_Mighty]

I've always thought Amarthiel was the corrupted persona of Narmaleth under the influence of Narchuil, much like the glimpse we get of Galadriel as a fearsome goddess when she is tempted by The One Ring.

This explanation also works. There are many such examples. I can not think of any cases where they are cured. Vast majority are like ruler of Carn Dum or the Nazgul. Bad to the bone. The only switcher that I can think of in the books has already been mentioned - Gollum and Smeagol.

[Cerridwen]

I took it as Amarthiel and Narmeleth being two separate entities because it said "allowing the spirit of Amarthiel to overcome her". But I really don't know what to believe the more I think on it, and I doubt Turbine will tell us; they probably want it to be ambiguous. I hate not knowing, though, and it's really bugging me.

[Blackadar]

According to Tolkien Gateway, they're two different people: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Amarthiel

I'll be darned. Guess I had that wrong.

[Cerridwen]

According to Tolkien Gateway, they're two different people: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Amarthiel

I'll be darned. Guess I had that wrong.

Sorry, but that site can't be taken as fact because anyone can write anything. In fact, whomever wrote that 'article' didn't even catch on about why Amarthiel fights Mordrambor in the ice cave.

[GEARS1980]

According to Tolkien Gateway, they're two different people: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Amarthiel

I'll be darned. Guess I had that wrong.

I'm going to say, either they have access to some Turbine notes we've not been shown in game, or they are making a great deal of their own assumptions.

[Graythandor]

That explanation doesn't make sense to me in light of Book XV, though. After destroying the ring and reverting entirely back to Narmaleth, Narmaleth vows to aid in the defeat of Mordrambor in penance for the "things I have done" and acknowledges that there is no redemption for herself. If she was possessed by a foreign spirit the entire time she would bear no blame in the deeds of Amarthiel. IMO, this part of the story only makes sense if she's sorry for the acts she herself committed under the corruption of Narchuil.

p.s. wikis aren't always correct.

[Cerridwen]

That explanation doesn't make sense to me in light of Book XV, though. After destroying the ring and reverting entirely back to Narmaleth, Narmaleth vows to aid in the defeat of Mordrambor in penance for the "things I have done" and acknowledges that there is no redemption for herself. If she was possessed by a foreign spirit the entire time she would bear no blame in the deeds of Amarthiel. IMO, this part of the story only makes sense if she's sorry for the acts she herself committed under the corruption of Narchuil.

p.s. wikis aren't always correct.

But she would feel bad because she betrayed her father's wishes about seeing Antheron and about leaving Mirobel, and she crafted the ring that gave Amarthiel more power (Amarthiel was powerful without the ring). I'd also think she'd feel bad because it was her body even if not her mind.

I can see both schools of thought as being valid, I just don't know which one really is. I hate ambiguity

[Berephon]

Did Amarthiel exist separate from Narmeleth or was Amarthiel the name Narmeleth used after she crafted Narchuil? The video, Daughter of Strife, says that after crafting Narchuil, Narmeleth fell into madness allowing the spirit of Amarthiel to overcome her. During the books, we learn that Amarthiel was defeated at Fornost and Laerdan broke Narchuil in two. We also learn that at some point after Fornost, Narmeleth is imprisoned by Laerdan at Sithad and he hopes to restore her to her former self. The books also mention that Narmeleth is freed from Amarthiel after witnessing Laerdan's death.

So I'm confused. The video makes it sound like Narmeleth was possessed by Amarthiel's spirit, which would make them two different people. But the imprisoning of Narmeleth after Fornost (how long after because if they are two people Narmeleth would have been possessed after Amarthiel was killed at Fornost) suggests that they are the same person and this was Narmeleth under the spell of Narchuil. As for the part where Narmeleth is freed of Amarthiel's spirit after her dad's death, that can go either way.

Official Answer: They are not the same.

Let me give you some background that you don't fully get in-game: Because Narchuil is a minor Ring of Power, not one of the Great Rings, it cannot be used to directly corrupt its wearer; however, it does open one to the influence of Sauron (as all rings of power do), and Narmeleth was swayed by Sauron in his beautiful form. She opened herself to him, and Sauron was able to put a fell spirit (Amarthiel) into her. (In short, she's possessed as Amarthiel.)

[GEARS1980]

Official Answer: They are not the same.

Let me give you some background that you don't fully get in-game: Because Narchuil is a minor Ring of Power, not one of the Great Rings, it cannot be used to directly corrupt its wearer; however, it does open one to the influence of Sauron (as all rings of power do), and Narmeleth was swayed by Sauron in his beautiful form. She opened herself to him, and Sauron was able to put a fell spirit (Amarthiel) into her. (In short, she's possessed as Amarthiel.)

That eases my biggest lore gripe to date in game then, I always had a problem with an elf giving themselves over to Sauron while still fully aware.

I do have to wonder though, why you kept it so ambiguous compared to Skorgrim or Thorog? You actually see the fell spirits at work with those particular antagonists. (even though they were bad to begin with, and dead)

[Cerridwen]

Official Answer: They are not the same.

Let me give you some background that you don't fully get in-game: Because Narchuil is a minor Ring of Power, not one of the Great Rings, it cannot be used to directly corrupt its wearer; however, it does open one to the influence of Sauron (as all rings of power do), and Narmeleth was swayed by Sauron in his beautiful form. She opened herself to him, and Sauron was able to put a fell spirit (Amarthiel) into her. (In short, she's possessed as Amarthiel.)

I love you so much right now. This has been killing me for a while and I always assumed Amarthiel was a spirit that entered Narmeleth but I wasn't positive.

[Angadan]

The clue is in the names. Narmaleth and Amarthiel share all but two letters...there is an "I" in Amarthiel that is not found in Narmaleth, and an "N" is naturally in Narmaleth but not Amarthiel.

Together, they spell either "in," which hints at the fell spirit's placement inside the elven maiden, or "ni," which some Knights in some movies might say is the answer to my theory. lol j/k

[Ioffryd]

Official Answer: They are not the same.

Let me give you some background that you don't fully get in-game: Because Narchuil is a minor Ring of Power, not one of the Great Rings, it cannot be used to directly corrupt its wearer; however, it does open one to the influence of Sauron (as all rings of power do), and Narmeleth was swayed by Sauron in his beautiful form. She opened herself to him, and Sauron was able to put a fell spirit (Amarthiel) into her. (In short, she's possessed as Amarthiel.)

Uh-oh. Can o' Worms time.

Laerdan's breaking of Narchuil obviously did not have the effect of casting "Amarthiel" out of Narmeleth, although it may have weakened her (Amarthiel, that is). In the Sithad flashbacks, we see the two spirits wrestling for control of the body, with Laerdan trying to counsel and encourage the Narmeleth side. Eventually of course, Mordirith stops by to visit and Amarthiel takes over again, even without Narchuil being present or whole.

When Amarthiel is stricken down by Mordirith, Mordrambor claims Narchuil and cuts Narmeleth's hand off. After this and Laerdan's sacrifice, Narmeleth is freed from Amarthiel's grasp, but we never see the fell-spirit leave her as we did with Skorgrim.

So, what exactly happened here? Did Mordirith have the power to destroy the Amarthiel spirit? Or at least banish it back to the netherworld? Or did Mordrambor's maiming of Narmeleth cause Amarthiel to depart? Or did Narmeleth finally find the strength to simply cast Amarthiel out?

I gather from Berephon's comments that the Amarthiel spirit and the ring Narchuil were NOT necessarily connected to each other. The creation of Narchuil and the introduction of Amarthiel into Narmeleth were two separate acts of Sauron/Antheron. All that Narchuil did was make Amarthiel more powerful while she had it. She obviously didn't need it to do all the other nasty, evil stuff she did, like possessing people, changing shape, etc. Mordrambor didn't seem the least bit negatively affected by Narchuil (other than becoming even more smug and annoying than he had been before*).

Final random thought: My Sindarin is rusty, but "Amarthiel" translates as "doomed elf", does it not?




* Imvho, Mordrambor is the best antagonist in the game. I HATED that dude, and couldn't wait for my chance to punt him in the delicates. The fact that it took me ~25 PuG runs of 1.15.12 to finally off him just made the accomplishment that much better. Otoh, defeating bosses like Gwathnor, the Mistress of Pestilence and even Gorothul didn't carry any emotional reward. They were pretty bland and uninspiring.

[Ouchiewawa]

Official Answer: They are not the same.

Let me give you some background that you don't fully get in-game: Because Narchuil is a minor Ring of Power, not one of the Great Rings, it cannot be used to directly corrupt its wearer; however, it does open one to the influence of Sauron (as all rings of power do), and Narmeleth was swayed by Sauron in his beautiful form. She opened herself to him, and Sauron was able to put a fell spirit (Amarthiel) into her. (In short, she's possessed as Amarthiel.)

I figured they were separate after all Narmeleth was not the only person Amarthiel possessed in the storyline.

[ericpae1]

Official Answer: They are not the same.

Let me give you some background that you don't fully get in-game: Because Narchuil is a minor Ring of Power, not one of the Great Rings, it cannot be used to directly corrupt its wearer; however, it does open one to the influence of Sauron (as all rings of power do), and Narmeleth was swayed by Sauron in his beautiful form. She opened herself to him, and Sauron was able to put a fell spirit (Amarthiel) into her. (In short, she's possessed as Amarthiel.)

Thank you very much for the answer to this. It has been eating at me for a long time and it's great to know the answer.