Why can't people read an NDA?

[mjk47]

I am intrigued by the steady stream of NDA-breaking posts that have been turning up in these forums since the beta started. Some here, some in the F2P forum, and some in the various New Player Forums.

Presumably anyone who accepted a beta invitation received instructions on where to obtain the Bullroarer client, and how to access the Official Beta Forums. I am not in the beta, butI do have a copy of the Bullroarer client on my system from previous open betas, and every now and again I start it up so that it is up-to-date, just in case I do receive an invitation before the beta ends. When it starts up it puts up messages similar to those in the main client login window, with the exception that they contain things like links to the Official Beta Forums, and constant reminders that you are subject to an NDA.

Despite all this, people still seem to manage to come here and post questions in the main forums. and I was wondering why this is.

Do they:

1. Get carried away by the excitement of being in the beta and simply forget their instructions?
2. Never read the instructions in the first place?
3. Have a cavalier disregard for the strictures of the NDA?

Since it is hard to imagine Turbine actually litigating against someone for posting "Is Bullroarer down?"in the General Discussion forum, one has to wonder what sanction might strike sufficient fear into a beta tester to ensure that they are punctilious in observing their obligations. Dismissal from the beta is probably the only real sanction that can be applied. Would forfeiture of any existing account be any more effective? In the current F2P beta, what would be an effective sanction for someone who does not currently have an account?

I'm not advocating such draconian measures, just wondering why it is that accidental NDA breaches occur, and what might prevent them. Deliberate breach is a wholly different matter, and that probably does require heavier measures.

[esdumby]

Really woudnt know if it is a break of the NDA if you arnt in beta. Turbine has announced alot of things already in the form of articles and interviews.

[Yula_the_Mighty]

A lot of it is a "I do not care". Our modern experience consists of entrapment via agreements that we have no choice in. No way to opt out. You either agree to terms. Or not have:

1) The ability to fly on a plane.
2) Get treated by medical care people
3) Get your power, water, internet turned on.
4) Get and use a computer, software, Ipod, Kindle ...
5) Get a job

I consider myself a rather strict straight arrow. I routinely break agreements that I make. It is the only way to survive. I think modern life has contributed a break down in our obedience in every aspect of our life. Even our government does this. They pass laws that are never going to be enforced. The police are not coming looking for you. Or if they do it is very rare. How many people going over the speed limit on the road get a traffic ticket?

Every day I make decisions on how many rules I am going to break based on how likely I will be caught? What the punishment is? Versus the benefit of ignoring the rule. A lot times not only are your very unlikely to get caught. There is no teeth to bite you.

[mysteriouskavu]

Some people just don't like "the man" man.

[mjk47]

Really woudnt know if it is a break of the NDA if you arnt in beta. Turbine has announced alot of things already in the form of articles and interviews.

Admitting you are in the beta is specifically a breach. While most NDAs have a clause that says if something comes into the public domain by other means it is no longer covered, it is unlikely that Turbine would announce that an individual was in the beta, so that one always has you hosed.

[mjk47]

I consider myself a rather strict straight arrow. I routinely break agreements that I make. It is the only way to survive. I think modern life has contributed a break down in our obedience in every aspect of our life. Even our government does this. They pass laws that are never going to be enforced. The police are not coming looking for you. Or if they do it is very rare. How many people going over the speed limit on the road get a traffic ticket?

I tend to agree with you. An unforced law becomes an unenforceable law. I sometimes think that Robert Heinlein had the right idea when he suggested that Government should consist of 2 elected bodies. One should require a 2/3 majority to pass a law, on the grounds that if it couldn't get that much support it was probably a bad idea. The other house should only require a 1/3 majority to repeal a law, arguing that if that many people were against it it should probably go.

[Cerridwen]

Some don't care.
Some just don't pay attention to where they are posting? Maybe?
Some don't think first.

I've not been reading the forums much so haven't seen most of the NDA violations I've heard about but I've seen some on Twitter where people proudly announced they got a '#LOTRO beta invite' (with subsequent 'you just violated the NDA' messages from other LOTRO players).

I know from the previous betas that you get instructions in the beta invitation email, which includes links and everything; and there's always been beta forums so I don't see why this time would be any different. *shrug*

[chuimon]

Despite all this, people still seem to manage to come here and post questions in the main forums. and I was wondering why this is.

Do they:

1. Get carried away by the excitement of being in the beta and simply forget their instructions?
2. Never read the instructions in the first place?
3. Have a cavalier disregard for the strictures of the NDA?

My guess is a floating mix of all three in varying proportions added to a disinclination to actually figure something out instead of having someone tell you how to do it.

[Schirf]

I am intrigued by the steady stream of NDA-breaking posts that have been turning up in these forums since the beta started. Some here, some in the F2P forum, and some in the various New Player Forums.

Are you sure they're NDA breaking posts? Turbine has started the media leak process... and taking about details published in an interview with a Turbine staffer is hardly NDA breaking if the topic doesn't stray into facts that cannot be extrapolated from the article(s).

btw: I'm NOT in the Beta... not is my wife.

[mjk47]

Are you sure they're NDA breaking posts? Turbine has started the media leak process... and taking about details publication in an interview with a Turbine staffer is hardly NDA breaking if the topic doesn't stray into facts that cannot be extrapolated from the article(s).

Actually none of the ones I have seen have actually said anything interesting. (There was one that might have, but it was edited by the time I saw it.)

Mostly they are just posts like "I can't login to the beta test server", which are an automatic breach of the NDA as the first rule of the NDA is that you cannot reveal yourself to be a beta tester.

And if you are wondering where they are, they tend not to have a very long life once they are spotted by a moderator. (Although some strangely seem to hang around indefinitely, even after being locked.)

[Smokey050]

Simple Answer, they don't care.

Why should they care? The beauty of the internet is the fact people can't control you (as of yet anyhow). So why in the world would someone abide by a NDA when it comes to the internet or internet based programs... It's like jumping into a Fire and then screaming why are the flames burning me...


In all seriousness though, they are asking random people to work/test stuff out for free (talk about cheap labor lol, no wonder I can't find a paying job as game tester). At the same time they are asking people they know nothing about to sign a NDA and expect them to be honest. Would you ask a thief to sign a contract saying they won't steal from you and then leave them in your home for a week while you go on vacation?

[cedwin]

Do the forum moderators take the weekend off? I've seen several posts talking about the beta that have been up all weekend.

[tuor66]

How do you know the NDA breaker didn't get a Private Message as a head's-up / warning ?

People make mistakes, I would hope there's a bit of investigation and dialog before the hammer drops. On the other hand - filling your personal blog with all sorts of goodies and screen shots is another matter .....

[Cerridwen]

Do the forum moderators take the weekend off? I've seen several posts talking about the beta that have been up all weekend.

Someone's always available but they aren't constantly on probably; they can work from home. Already today a thread has been removed where someone stated they were in beta.

How do you know the NDA breaker didn't get a Private Message as a head's-up / warning ?

People make mistakes, I would hope there's a bit of investigation and dialog before the hammer drops. On the other hand - filling your personal blog with all sorts of goodies and screen shots is another matter .....

I don't have experience with this because the betas I was in I didn't tell anyone until we were allowed to, but it's blatantly clear in the email and on the forums that you can't reveal you are in beta, and it usually says it's grounds for a boot, so who knows if a warning is warranted since they've already had plenty of warning. Since we're not Turbine, we can only speculate but really, it's not for us to say. Some just try to remind people they aren't supposed to reveal being in beta.

[trancejeremy]

Because for one, most people don't even read online agreements. There was an online store (or something) that put in a clause about selling their soul and no one noticed.

Beyond that, unless you're a lawyer, it can be hard to decipher them.

I also really doubt that an online NDA is enforceable in a court of law. Back in the day, companies would mail you an agreement and you'd have to sign and send back.

So basically, the worst that could happen is they revoke your access to beta. OMG, you don't get to do unpaid work for a million dollar company anymore. How awful.

[Nymphonic]

Due to RL issues taking up all of my time I did not accept my beta invite. I wonder if saying that means I violated a rule.

I think people just don't care. Or maybe they feel strongly enough about an issue that they are willing to take the risk in talking about it in the normal forums.

[Patrickwg]

People just do not take the time to think about what they are doing before they post, or they just do not care.

Here are some NDA violators for you turbine

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...sid=1&pageNo=1

[mjk47]

Due to RL issues taking up all of my time I did not accept my beta invite. I wonder if saying that means I violated a rule.

Nope, that one is definitely OK. You're not under the NDA until you accept it. It's not like Mission Impossible.

[Raath]

Even tho I'm sure some people just don't care about the NDA....

...perhaps others are simply making a mistake?

[Cerridwen]

I also really doubt that an online NDA is enforceable in a court of law. Back in the day, companies would mail you an agreement and you'd have to sign and send back.

It wouldn't be worth the time or money to go to court over an NDA violation probably, but an NDA is a legally binding contract. Probably the absolute worst that would happen is having your account banned, but only Turbine knows these things for sure. Anyway, it's up to Turbine to deal with this stuff. We can remind folks they aren't supposed to talk about beta but that's all. I doubt the ones who post care or they wouldn't be posting to begin with. Some care about rules, others don't. I prefer people follow the rules, but they aren't hurting me by revealing they're in beta.

[Mark_J]

Turbine did a lot of advertising for this Beta as their new F2P model and all you needed to sign up for an invitation was an email address. I don't know how many current active LOTRO Players are in Beta but I bet they are a minority. It just makes sense that the vast majority of the people in Beta are the ones Turbine is trying to entice into the game, not the ones already here.

That said, I think the NDA violators don't know any better or simply don't care. The same sort of trend I believe we'll see from many of the new F2P Players....

[Silverangel]

Are you sure they're NDA breaking posts? Turbine has started the media leak process... and taking about details published in an interview with a Turbine staffer is hardly NDA breaking if the topic doesn't stray into facts that cannot be extrapolated from the article(s).

This was my first thought--maybe the OP missed some of the 2-part Massively interviews or something else. I haven't seen anything that I imagined could be a violation, although I don't doubt they have occurred.

[mjk47]

This was my first thought--maybe the OP missed some of the 2-part Massively interviews or something else. I haven't seen anything that I imagined could be a violation, although I don't doubt they have occurred.

Saw those articles. As noted above, most of the violations are revealing the poster as a beta tester, not spilling the beans on details. I am sure that most of them are inadvertent, but absolutely against the terms of the NDA. Not major, premeditated infractions, but just had me wondering how it is that a steady stream of folk seem to keep making these mistakes. it hardly seems rocket science to keep within the rules that you sign up to.

I was rather hoping that starting this thread would help existing forum members from making similar mistakes by bringing it to their attention.

[Cerridwen]

Turbine did a lot of advertising for this Beta as their new F2P model and all you needed to sign up for an invitation was an email address. I don't know how many current active LOTRO Players are in Beta but I bet they are a minority. It just makes sense that the vast majority of the people in Beta are the ones Turbine is trying to entice into the game, not the ones already here.

That said, I think the NDA violators don't know any better or simply don't care. The same sort of trend I believe we'll see from many of the new F2P Players....

The thing about this is that you have to have an active (as in paid) subscription to post on these forums. I'm betting since the beta forums can be blocked to non-beta players that these forums can be blocked to non-subscribed players who are beta testing. I could be wrong, but that's what seems logical to me.

[auseklis1984]

I agree with most people about how beta testers just don't care/don't read the NDA - not even like the first little portion that even pops up for you. Recently, I've spotted quite a few players on Vilya's glff/unite and even kin chat stating that they got an invite/are in beta followed by a prompt and swift chorus of other players silencing them. Half of the time, the original person just didn't know. Why? They don't read the NDA because perhaps they're just too excited to read it or they're like the rest of us when it comes to any NDA or even Terms and Agreement on other products for our computers: "Yeah, yeah, yeah, don't do anything illegal... sure... whatever. I want to listen to my music now!" *scroll to bottom quickly and click*

It's a human flaw that can't necessarily be controlled. It's like trying to keep an awesome secret your friend told you, but you didn't realize when you told everyone that it was a secret. Secret's out and it's over an done with. What more can be done after that?

The mods are doing what they can from their side and I can appreciate that since people tend to have lapses in judgement and post something... and basically those people have become killjoys for the rest of us.