Dwarf doppelganger???

[Intrigue99gt]

So I noticed this quite a while ago, but it took my a while to get around to posting about it (also, sorry if this has already been discussed)... but did you guys notice that there are two Avar's in Middle Earth!

The first Avar that I noticed was in Moria at Orc Watch (he gives you some nice quests), and then when I went back into Angmar to finish up a bunch of quests and reputation that I skipped, there was Avar again handing out more quests!

How can this be, two Avar's existing at the same time but in far different locations...?

Do dwarves have twins, and if so, do they give them the same name? Do these twin Avar's know of each others existence...should we reunite them?

Or is one of these Avar's a doppelganger...perhaps created by the Enemy or even a Maiar?

Is Middle Earth in danger of being overrun by Avars?

[Van'cali]

hehe I also noticed there are a lot of dwarves named "Dwarf Miner". Sure, they are minor (hehehe) characters, but don't they deserve names too?

[BrianDavion]

maybe Avar's just a common name among dwarves?

[Cerridwen]

Eh, there's at least two Dwarves named Thorlak (sp?) but they are in different 'times'. Names can be reused because each area is supposed to be at a different time, though that seems to be changing somewhat with the Mysterious Relics and the new instances being added throughout Eriador. If you see two of the same name in the same area, that's a bug and should be reported.

[C31ebrimbor]

Yeah and how about all those guys in Suri Kyla whose names are Lossoth. Must be doppelgangers or their mothers weren't very original with their names.

[Karhald]

My name is Eric

I am the only Eric in the world.

Any other Erics are impostors.


Edit: Only players have to have different first names. It's for character database purposes, gotta keep 'em all separate. As for NPCs, the system probably recognizes them by a number, rather than a name.

Player sees NPC named 'Bob'
The game displays NPC as 'Bob'
The game recognizes 'Bob' as NPC12281


This is my completely undeducated guess. I'm probably waaaaay off the mark. I'm no programmer.

[Macfeast]

Well, there are examples of dwarves sharing a name, though they were usually distinguished by a surname or a number. There was Thorin II Oakenshield, but there was also a Thorin to preceed him, which is why Oakenshield is labelled as the second one. Then there was Thorin III Stonehelm, son of Dáin II Ironfoot. Dáin wasn't the first one to bear that name either, and so on.

It is unlikely they are supposed to be the same dwarf, as one of them is up in Angmar and the other one is part of the Iron Garrison, who came from Erebor (and, most important of all, they have different beards). Heck, they're probably not even related. Granted, it would probably help if either of Avar had something more to his name, like a number or a surname.

[Mikivaup]

It is also not uncommon to have them designate where they are from as in Avar of the Blue Mountains or Avar of Thorin's or some similar.

[Van'cali]

Do dwarves have twins, and if so, do they give them the same name? Do these twin Avar's know of each others existence...should we reunite them?

Or is one of these Avar's a doppelganger...perhaps created by the Enemy or even a Maiar?

Is Middle Earth in danger of being overrun by Avars?

I'm afraid your humor was lost on some.

[Berecron]

Yeah and how about all those guys in Suri Kyla whose names are Lossoth. Must be doppelgangers or their mothers weren't very original with their names.

It's all in emphasizing the right syllable.

LossOTH versus LOSsoth versus LOssOTH....

Very confusing to outsiders.

[Reniannen]

Well, there are examples of dwarves sharing a name, though they were usually distinguished by a surname or a number. There was Thorin II Oakenshield, but there was also a Thorin to preceed him, which is why Oakenshield is labelled as the second one. Then there was Thorin III Stonehelm, son of Dáin II Ironfoot. Dáin wasn't the first one to bear that name either, and so on.

They were numbered because they were kings; just like it is done now - Elisabeth II, Benedict XVI. They certainly didn't go around numbering every single Dwarf.

It is unlikely they are supposed to be the same dwarf, as one of them is up in Angmar and the other one is part of the Iron Garrison, who came from Erebor (and, most important of all, they have different beards). Heck, they're probably not even related. Granted, it would probably help if either of Avar had something more to his name, like a number or a surname.

From what I gathered Avar in Moria is a brother of three other Dwarves none of which is present outside of Moria. So they're not likely the same. Though not all Dwarves in Moria must have necessarily come from Erebor, Greyhammers' are from Thorin's Hall, aren't they?

[Zombielord]

Maybe it's always the same Avar you see: He just moves really, really fast from one place to another without you even noticing it

[DarObel]

It's all in emphasizing the right syllable.

LossOTH versus LOSsoth versus LOssOTH....

Very confusing to outsiders.

You, sir, are awesome. I love Zathras.

[Ceraby]

The first Avar you met is the imposter. The second one should be told of this right away.

[Macfeast]

They were numbered because they were kings; just like it is done now - Elisabeth II, Benedict XVI. They certainly didn't go around numbering every single Dwarf.

Ah, good call. Yeah, that's something I should have taken into consideration.

[Van'cali]

It's all in emphasizing the right syllable.

LossOTH versus LOSsoth versus LOssOTH....

Very confusing to outsiders.

Awesome explanation! haha

[Yula_the_Mighty]

The names you see for dwarves are their first name. There are a lot of last names. Some of them when you talk to them will give you their family name. There is a bunch of quests in Mirkwood involving the Greyhammer family. There is one in particular that spends a lot of time QQing about how the his family has been wronged. Eventually you get a quest to this dwarf's father in Thorin's Hall.

I sure hope there are not a lot of dwarves from other families that share the first name of the QQing Greyhammer...

[Intrigue99gt]

The first Avar you met is the imposter. The second one should be told of this right away.

My feelings exactly...he just came across as odd somehow, like a shadow was upon him and his name...something must be done...perhaps we should seek the council of Elrond?

[Berephon]

The names you see for dwarves are their first name. There are a lot of last names. Some of them when you talk to them will give you their family name. There is a bunch of quests in Mirkwood involving the Greyhammer family. There is one in particular that spends a lot of time QQing about how the his family has been wronged. Eventually you get a quest to this dwarf's father in Thorin's Hall.

I sure hope there are not a lot of dwarves from other families that share the first name of the QQing Greyhammer...

Actually, there aren't a lot of last names. Dwarves don't actually have last names. Their surnames are earned through deeds and have something to do with said deeds (for instance Thorin Oakenshield was called Oakenshield because he used a large branch for a shield in a battle.) So only significant dwarves have surnames. This includes the lot of Greyhammers.

However, I imagine there are probably many more Avars in Middle-earth than just the two in our game. Anyway, for game purposes, we made the conscious decision to allow duplicate names for NPCs as long as they appear in different regions (this because we have a limited selection of names available, as we use Tolkien's naming conventions.)

Of course, every zone is also frozen in time, so it is quite possible to have the same NPC in multiple locations simultaneously, as their zones may be in different times. (And in fact, we do...all over the place.)

[rosiebelle2222]

My Level 65 EU Dwavern tank goddess Rosiebelle Rabbitbane got her surname from her ancestor's proficiency at dealing with small furry critters - stealers of precious dwarvern carrots!

[Barruktp]

Actually, there aren't a lot of last names. Dwarves don't actually have last names. Their surnames are earned through deeds and have something to do with said deeds (for instance Thorin Oakenshield was called Oakenshield because he used a large branch for a shield in a battle.) So only significant dwarves have surnames. This includes the lot of Greyhammers.

However, I imagine there are probably many more Avars in Middle-earth than just the two in our game. Anyway, for game purposes, we made the conscious decision to allow duplicate names for NPCs as long as they appear in different regions (this because we have a limited selection of names available, as we use Tolkien's naming conventions.)

Of course, every zone is also frozen in time, so it is quite possible to have the same NPC in multiple locations simultaneously, as their zones may be in different times. (And in fact, we do...all over the place.)

Would it not be lore-appropriate to put "Avar, son of Fundi" or whatever his father's name was? That way the names are not identical. That is how dwarves usually introduce themselves anyway.

[Bob]

Names are reused for elves in LotRO too. There's a Gelirwen in Esteldin, Shadowed Refuge in Moria and in Mirobel last time I checked.

[Willowing]

Meet my namesake in Forochel...

[Berephon]

Would it not be lore-appropriate to put "Avar, son of Fundi" or whatever his father's name was? That way the names are not identical. That is how dwarves usually introduce themselves anyway.

You wanna talk about running out of names even more quickly?

[Berephon]

Names are reused for elves in LotRO too. There's a Gelirwen in Esteldin, Shadowed Refuge in Moria and in Mirobel last time I checked.

Same issue. The usable vocabulary to generate names with is extremely limited.