=Book 3: Echoes of the Dead= SPOILERS/Lore Question

[jts4ever]

=DONT READ IF YOU WANT TO EXPERIENCE BOOK 3 WITHOUT SPOILERS=
dont worry theres not much


Ok so after several hours i finally finished echoes of the dead which i must say was one of the best books yet!!
every chapter awesome! and the story for this book was epic! very eventful!

Anyways thats no the reason why i posted this. Reason is i have a question to turbine/all you lore junkies. I know areas of lore in lotr fairly well and others im not so sure about. So as you know echoes of the dead is centered around the "army of the dead" or "oath breakers" who was cursed by isildur for breaking their oath to fight against sauron.

As the book progresses the grey company attempt to gain the alliance with the dead army and events happen here and there which are very cool. But my question is about the location of the army, in other words, the resting place of the army. (i might have missed something in the book but anyways). Now the army of the dead haunted beneath the white moutains in Gondor, after they died off and became the ghosts they are now. But why is the army under the Lich Bluffs in Enedwaith?? as seen at the end of the book.. Very confusing.

Im sure ive missed something here. But anyways. Just hoping someone can clarrify it all for me. Thanks!

[ImirielOfTheNorth]

The ones in the Lich Bluffs are Oath-Breakers who thought they could escape the curse by fleeing from the White Mountains to the north.
Whatever happened to them, it seems they met their end in Enedwaith and are now cursed there.
The Rangers wanted to use them to protect them as they made their way through Dunland, hence releasing them of their curse. Unfortunately, the Oath-Breakers did not want to listen to the Rangers which subsequently resulted in the death of poor ol Candaith and several other unnamed Rangers.

RIP Candaith, you sure did make my experience in the Weather Hills an interesting one.
The Epilogue Video at the end of the Book is so sad ;(

CRYCRYCRYCRYCRY

[Aoeworth]

If I recall correctly, I believe the quest dialogue was that these undead where a remnant that fled the White Mountain area in a effort to escape their curse. Sounds ok, but looks bad when their King is there too.

My question is, (I kinda thought I was missing some dialogue), but "Nar gives you a glance..."

Does that mean he has been under the thrall of Saruman? And is Nar the one who strangled Engopogo...you know that dude from Gondor?

[OldMadeOfLions]

If I recall correctly, I believe the quest dialogue was that these undead where a remnant that fled the White Mountain area in a effort to escape their curse. Sounds ok, but looks bad when their King is there too.

He's not there, though. Rioc isn't at the Forsaken Road.

MoL

[jts4ever]

So the king we saw in chapter 2 isnt the one we encounter in the forsaken road? So im guessing he is still in the White moutains with the rest of the army?

[EN-Esty]

The Forsaken Road is actually one of the few things I'm not too keen on with this update. While I enjoyed the epic book and session instance as a whole I do have a small grievance with the number of "light" versions of iconic areas/mobs/people introduced with this one update since they always make the "proper" version feel a little less special for me when we eventually see them. I understand the need to give us variation and things that feel middle-earthy but I'd rather they left us a few things that would be special for later.
-Esty

[GV-Tanith]

I just want to know why Isildur felt it necessary to haul off and go RAWR after calling down his curse upon the Oathbreakers during the session play. Seems rather out of character.

[Southpa]

I just want to know why Isildur felt it necessary to haul off and go RAWR after calling down his curse upon the Oathbreakers during the session play. Seems rather out of character.

Um, everyone knows that a RAWR is required to properly bestow a curse.
Noob.


I thought it was definitely an above-average Epic book. The lore of the Second Age is my favorite (Numenor, etc), so it was nice to have it wrapped up in there. The only part I thought could have used a little more clarity was Curunir's (I think it was him) realization that Sauruman was behind the current events in the book. It's like, I talked to Nar, he rattled-off some of his usual drivel, I talk to Curunir and all of a sudden it makes sense to him? That was weird. I kept thinking I missed something, but I don't think I did (maybe I did?).

If the ranger realized it was Saruman after the last time I spoke to Nar, he should only have been confirming what was made evident by the last discussion with Nar. I figured it would be Saruman anyway...but Nar could have been used better at the end there IMO.

Also, the best rewards are in the first 1/3 of the book. Harumph.

[Fruinjuice]

RIP Candaith, you sure did make my experience in the Weather Hills an interesting one.
The Epilogue Video at the end of the Book is so sad ;(

When this happened, I thought the quest name should have been "Candaith's Remains", but that allusion to another quest (Calenglad Remains) would have been more fitting if it was Calenglad that perished.

Great job on the book - now to go through it with my other 2 capped alts to see if i missed anything...

[TheOneRinger]

Um, everyone knows that a RAWR is required to properly bestow a curse.
Noob.


I thought it was definitely an above-average Epic book. The lore of the Second Age is my favorite (Numenor, etc), so it was nice to have it wrapped up in there. The only part I thought could have used a little more clarity was Curunir's (I think it was him) realization that Sauruman was behind the current events in the book. It's like, I talked to Nar, he rattled-off some of his usual drivel, I talk to Curunir and all of a sudden it makes sense to him? That was weird. I kept thinking I missed something, but I don't think I did (maybe I did?).

If the ranger realized it was Saruman after the last time I spoke to Nar, he should only have been confirming what was made evident by the last discussion with Nar. I figured it would be Saruman anyway...but Nar could have been used better at the end there IMO.

Also, the best rewards are in the first 1/3 of the book. Harumph.

Yes, you did. If you ask Nar the non-quest-text questions, he'll tell you himself that

*SPOILER* Saruman was the one giving him information. *SPOILER*

[OldMadeOfLions]

Yes, you did. If you ask Nar the non-quest-text questions, he'll tell you <spoilery spoilery spoilery>.

Istien told me that people were going to miss those comments on Nar, but I didn't believe her.

It seems like it's pretty common for people to not see them. I was wrong on this one!

MoL

[TheOneRinger]

Istien told me that people were going to miss those comments on Nar, but I didn't believe her.

It seems like it's pretty common for people to not see them. I was wrong on this one!

MoL

Well, *I* read it all, if that makes you feel any better. A couple times, actually, on different characters. It was very good, although a bit frustrating that the Grey Company didn't seem to gain any ground.

[Southpa]

Ah...I thought mebbe they were just carrying forward from the same ones you could read previously. My bad. I'll be sure to read them on alts 1-7.

[Barruktp]

Ah...I thought mebbe they were just carrying forward from the same ones you could read previously. My bad. I'll be sure to read them on alts 1-7.

Yeah I missed that as well... Thought they were previous quest information. It seemed kind of incongruous that Corunir brought up Saruman right afterwards.

OTOH, the mysterious appearance of the old man in book 2 is now easily explained...

[LagunaD]

The books since Moria have all been very weak IMO; this one was better than the last few, although it still made very little sense.

**** PLOT SPOILERS ****

OK, so Nar the insane dorf is suddenly going through books, which he has never done before, and that is alarming. If there was any connection between the book-rummaging (which was used as a plot device *twice*), I missed it in the dialog which "resolved" the mystery.

The middle part of the book - with Wadu's family and the attack on Nar - was pretty much filler and also made no sense. We learn at the end of the book that Saruman has some kind of underground path and has met with Nar many times. If so, why does he need to send an army to get him? Why not just meet him again, do some Wizard-y stuff, and spirit him off to Isengard? And why is Nar worth abducting at all? Saruman has clearly manipulated him, and convinced him of only what he (Saruman) wants him (Nar) to believe. He is no danger to Saruman, and no use to the Rangers or anyone else. He knows nothing of value to Saruman, either. The only plausibly interesting thing about him is that he has talked to Saruman, and that only came to light because Saruman drew attention to him in the first place!

Second, the whole "resolution" makes no sense. The original mystery was how Nar knew of Elrond's words. The answer to that is supposed to be that Saruman gave him that information. OK, so how did Saruman know? If he is somehow able to eavesdrop on Elrond in Rivendell, there is virtually nothing he *doesn't* know. According to the lore, even the *existence* of a living heir of Elendil was a closely guarded secret, and Sauron's discovery of it (when Aragorn used the palantir) was so alarming that he scrapped his existing plans to launch an *immediate* attack on Gondor.

Saruman could conceivably have learned about Aragorn independently. Gandalf might have disclosed it to him, before Saruman unmasked himself as a traitor (although I don't think anything in the lore suggests that he did). Also Aragorn revealed his true identity to Eomer when they met, and Eomer reported this to Theoden, meaning Wormtongue was aware of it (during the confrontation in the Golden Hall, Wormtongue mentions other information Eomer reported). And Wormtongue would have no doubt faithfully reported it to Saruman. But the meeting of Eomer and Aragorn happened only a couple days before the Battle of Helms Deep - not much time for Saruman to plant the information in Nar's mind, and one would suppose he had far more pressing matters to attend to around that time...

But even that doesn't explain Saruman's clairvoyance regarding the words of Elrond - or why Saruman would even care. The Oathbreakers were sworn to help *Gondor* fight *Sauron*. Saruman's immediate plans were for the destruction of *Rohan*. Having accomplished that, he could have prevented Aragorn from even reaching Dunharrow and the Oathbreakers.

So none of it really makes any sense. A recurring theme in the lore is that the malicious, power-mad villains like Sauron and Saruman are so focused on their own schemes, and so confident of their success, that they are blind to the weaknesses that will ultimately be their undoing. It is pretty hard to reconcile that with Saruman: a) knowing about the Grey Company, b) somehow knowing the exact words of Elrond, and c) diverting his own attention from the war he is about to launch to elaborately manipulate the mind of an insane dorf for no apparent reason and d) diverting his elite forces (Uruks) away from those battles to capture that insane dorf, again for no apparent reason. Especially given that, contrary to the inventions of the film, the Grey Company does not arrive until after the decisive battles between Saruman and Rohan.

A more lore-accurate attitude by Saruman, even *assuming* he knew they were coming, and *assuming* he somehow knew the words of Elrond, would seem to me: "Hah, the fool Elrond sends a score of rangers to contend with my army of ten thousand! But they will be too late! Let them come! Once we have overrun Rohan and taken captive those who are not slain, the Shire, Breeland and the rest of Eriador will be defenseless! Bwa-ha-ha!"

[whheydt]

Second, the whole "resolution" makes no sense. The original mystery was how Nar knew of Elrond's words. The answer to that is supposed to be that Saruman gave him that information. OK, so how did Saruman know? If he is somehow able to eavesdrop on Elrond in Rivendell, there is virtually nothing he *doesn't* know. According to the lore, even the *existence* of a living heir of Elendil was a closely guarded secret, and Sauron's discovery of it (when Aragorn used the palantir) was so alarming that he scrapped his existing plans to launch an *immediate* attack on Gondor.

Prior to the revelation of Saruman's treachery, he was head of the White Council. As such, he would almost certainly know about Aragorn. As a Maia and a master of lore, he would have known about the Isildur's history and the curse he laid at the Stone of Erech. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to surmise that he could pretty much guess what Elrond would have said about this matter.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

[LagunaD]

Prior to the revelation of Saruman's treachery, he was head of the White Council. As such, he would almost certainly know about Aragorn. As a Maia and a master of lore, he would have known about the Isildur's history and the curse he laid at the Stone of Erech.

Actually the *last* meeting of the White Council was before the *first* meeting of Gandalf and Aragorn, when "Estel" was still a young boy being concealed in Rivendell. I agree he would have known about curse.

It wouldn't be much of a stretch to surmise that he could pretty much guess what Elrond would have said about this matter.

About *what* matter though? Even assuming Saruman knew that an heir was still alive, nobody except Galadriel - presumably through her ring-assisted ability to see things in the future - foresaw that Aragorn would be going to Rohan, or thought of sending the Dunedain to meet him there.

Even Gandalf the White - having spoken to Galadriel only days before running into Aragorn - had no inkling that the Grey Company was on the way, and never even suggested the possibility to Aragorn (who as a result nearly missed meeting them...).

And it still leaves the question: why would Saruman bother passing this knowledge along to an insane dorf, and then waste valuable resources trying to capture this same dorf who had no information of any value?

[kitkatrynn]

I got the idea that the whole thing was done to confuse the rangers and make them waste time. But I agree it seems like a waste of resources on the white wizard's part.

Here is the dialogue from Nar for those who missed it:

[djheydt]

Istien told me that people were going to miss those comments on Nar, but I didn't believe her.

It seems like it's pretty common for people to not see them. I was wrong on this one!

MoL

MoL, it's not your fault; though Istien was right. Many players are not sufficiently Lore-addicted to read every bit of text they come across, hoping to find out something new (or rather, very old) and interesting.

*I* read all the text, and when I read the punchline I said aloud, "Oooooooohhhhhh, [bleep.]"

Now to another matter: did some dev name Candaith Dunadan after Candeth Martine in Asheron's Call? Challenged, lost, slain ... but Martine in his death did a great work and redeemed himself and his name for all time. Candaith made a HUGE mistake and died for it ... but the cursed lieutenant did state that the Dead would fulfill their oath to Isildur when the time came. So maybe Candaith's death has contributed toward Elessar's eventual victory. Here in the Sixth Age we have long known that the One is able to bring good out of evil.

/sniffle

[ilikeham49]

**** PLOT SPOILERS ****

OK, so Nar the insane dorf is suddenly going through books, which he has never done before, and that is alarming. If there was any connection between the book-rummaging (which was used as a plot device *twice*), I missed it in the dialog which "resolved" the mystery.

The middle part of the book - with Wadu's family and the attack on Nar - was pretty much filler and also made no sense. We learn at the end of the book that Saruman has some kind of underground path and has met with Nar many times. If so, why does he need to send an army to get him? Why not just meet him again, do some Wizard-y stuff, and spirit him off to Isengard? And why is Nar worth abducting at all? Saruman has clearly manipulated him, and convinced him of only what he (Saruman) wants him (Nar) to believe. He is no danger to Saruman, and no use to the Rangers or anyone else. He knows nothing of value to Saruman, either. The only plausibly interesting thing about him is that he has talked to Saruman, and that only came to light because Saruman drew attention to him in the first place!

Second, the whole "resolution" makes no sense. The original mystery was how Nar knew of Elrond's words. The answer to that is supposed to be that Saruman gave him that information. OK, so how did Saruman know? If he is somehow able to eavesdrop on Elrond in Rivendell, there is virtually nothing he *doesn't* know. According to the lore, even the *existence* of a living heir of Elendil was a closely guarded secret, and Sauron's discovery of it (when Aragorn used the palantir) was so alarming that he scrapped his existing plans to launch an *immediate* attack on Gondor.

Saruman could conceivably have learned about Aragorn independently. Gandalf might have disclosed it to him, before Saruman unmasked himself as a traitor (although I don't think anything in the lore suggests that he did). Also Aragorn revealed his true identity to Eomer when they met, and Eomer reported this to Theoden, meaning Wormtongue was aware of it (during the confrontation in the Golden Hall, Wormtongue mentions other information Eomer reported). And Wormtongue would have no doubt faithfully reported it to Saruman. But the meeting of Eomer and Aragorn happened only a couple days before the Battle of Helms Deep - not much time for Saruman to plant the information in Nar's mind, and one would suppose he had far more pressing matters to attend to around that time...

But even that doesn't explain Saruman's clairvoyance regarding the words of Elrond - or why Saruman would even care. The Oathbreakers were sworn to help *Gondor* fight *Sauron*. Saruman's immediate plans were for the destruction of *Rohan*. Having accomplished that, he could have prevented Aragorn from even reaching Dunharrow and the Oathbreakers.

So none of it really makes any sense. A recurring theme in the lore is that the malicious, power-mad villains like Sauron and Saruman are so focused on their own schemes, and so confident of their success, that they are blind to the weaknesses that will ultimately be their undoing. It is pretty hard to reconcile that with Saruman: a) knowing about the Grey Company, b) somehow knowing the exact words of Elrond, and c) diverting his own attention from the war he is about to launch to elaborately manipulate the mind of an insane dorf for no apparent reason and d) diverting his elite forces (Uruks) away from those battles to capture that insane dorf, again for no apparent reason. Especially given that, contrary to the inventions of the film, the Grey Company does not arrive until after the decisive battles between Saruman and Rohan.

A more lore-accurate attitude by Saruman, even *assuming* he knew they were coming, and *assuming* he somehow knew the words of Elrond, would seem to me: "Hah, the fool Elrond sends a score of rangers to contend with my army of ten thousand! But they will be too late! Let them come! Once we have overrun Rohan and taken captive those who are not slain, the Shire, Breeland and the rest of Eriador will be defenseless! Bwa-ha-ha!"

Well I'm not fully done with the book just yet, but from what I saw on others posts I would like to tell you my opinion on what you said.
If you recall isenguard and mordor have been in communication with each other through the palantir, and I believe that saruon was able to see glimpses into parts of the future and at least foresee events, (i might be wrong though) or it is possible that he knew of the dunedain and that they might attempt to go to the paths of the dead, he possibly had the fear that the heir of issildur might be around. If saruon knew that then he could have told saurman which then saurman would have told nar. Or it is quite possible that it was a lucky guess.

From the post by kitkatrynn, I think it is possible to tell that nar was rummaging through books to find information for saruman. I think also saruman might have known about the rangers from his orcs and sent some uruks to nar to make sure that the rangers didn't suspect that nar was with saruman, like a decoy.

at least thats my thoughts on it. Perhaps that can explain some questions you have about the plot.

[Istien1]

I got the idea that the whole thing was done to confuse the rangers and make them waste time. But I agree it seems like a waste of resources on the white wizard's part.

Here is the dialogue from Nar for those who missed it:

I'm not going to repost your image kitkatrynn, but I like your UI skin. It looks very entish!

MoL, it's not your fault; though Istien was right.

*whistles nonchalantly* All in a day's work I suppose.

Very glad you're all enjoying it, and at least read enough to notice that you missed something!

[Stormwaltz]

I'm not going to repost your image kitkatrynn, but I like your UI skin. It looks very entish!

That's Delving Hills - the only alternate UI skin I've ever tried. It's quite nice.

http://www.lotrointerface.com/downlo...vingHills.html

[Overtone]

Hmm. Great rewards in this book! Thanks for that.

As for the story/lore, Isildur came across as a Grade A A-Hole. I'm no lore junkie. I only play one on the Interwebz, but I mean, he is an outsider to these mountain men. Just because they meet as strangers and agree on an alliance at that time without really knowing each other, doesn't really warrant cursing them for all eternity when they don't have his back years down the road. lol

Don't know if that's how it went down in the books, but there just wasn't any depth to it. Very disappointing. Where did Isildur get his power to curse someone like that? lol The Ring? The big black rock? I don't get it. Seems the wise thing would have been for Isildur to use his power to persuade the mountain men to get back on track, not curse them forever. These guys were half-wit wild men for the most part. How could you expect them to ward off the allure of Sauron? Pretty campy.

I thought the Forsaken Road part was fairly interesting. RIP Candaith. I kind of liked that dude, but calling out the immortal undead just isn't smart even when my RK is by your side.

Like I said though, the Shoulders my RK pulled down are great. Put the rawr back into quest item rewards and my toon will be wearing them daily.

[kitkatrynn]

I'm not going to repost your image kitkatrynn, but I like your UI skin. It looks very entish!

Thank you, it's called Delving hills. The bottom skill bars are very hobbity

[whheydt]

Hmm. Great rewards in this book! Thanks for that.

As for the story/lore, Isildur came across as a Grade A A-Hole. I'm no lore junkie. I only play one on the Interwebz, but I mean, he is an outsider to these mountain men. Just because they meet as strangers and agree on an alliance at that time without really knowing each other, doesn't really warrant cursing them for all eternity when they don't have his back years down the road. lol

I don't read it that way... For a Numenorean, Isildur is probably better than most. As a king, it's not too surprising that he gets on his high horse, both in extracting the original oath and his rage when the oath is repudiated.

Rioc, now...there's an interesting piece of work. He agrees to the oath readily enough. It appears that, given a choice between Isildur's displeasure now and the risk of opposing Sauron later, he takes the easy way out and swears to what Isildur wants. He may see the alternative as coming into more or less immediate conflict with a young, but energetic and powerful Gondor and likely losing and the later risk of opposing what he knows is a nearly elemental power to his destruction. Ultimately, he tries to have it both ways--and is cursed for his failing. Rioc strikes me as a canny old coot who is out of his depth in dealing with contending powers much greater than he is.

Since it is revealed, when the blow off happens, that Rioc and his people have been "worshipping" Sauron for *years*, it shows that Rioc never intended to keep his oath in the first place, hence Isildur's quite justifiable wrath. Had Rioc formally repudiated the oath before allowing the attack on the Gondorian outpost (presumably through his territory, if not with his active assistance), Isildur would have had far less justification for the curse.

Rioc could even have tried (and might have similarly failed) in the same mode as the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, in which word of the ultimatum was supposed to be delivered to the US Secretary of State 30 minutes before the attack hit in order to meet the letter of international law while violating the spirit of that law.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer