Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

[Bhoris_they_spider]

Except in this case it did and the saying was just being used as a smoke screen.

Now the 'cat is out the bag' can we please get an apology for the above statement being repeatedly used by Turbine employees to fend off sugestions that RoI may be lacking in content, specifically instances?

What they really meant was "We know full well you've rumbled us and ROI aint coming witha lot of new stuff but we arent going to admit it becuase that will hurt our pre-order sales"

Apology plz!

[Wibz]

Now the 'cat is out the bag' can we please get an apology for the above statement being repeatedly used by Turbine employees to fend off sugestions that RoI may be lacking in content, specifically instances?

Apology plz!

Er, did any Turbine employee actually say this?

I thought it was players who couldn't believe Turbine would release an expansion without Instances.

[Bhoris_they_spider]

Er, did any Turbine employee actually say this?

I thought it was players who couldn't believe Turbine would release an expansion without Instances.

//forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?400762-Clearing-the-Truth-Up/page2#17

[Podraig]

Think at the end of the day they wont apologuise, they have proven there only in it for making as much money as possible, this exspansion if you could call it that is nothing but a way to make vip's and lifetime players pay for a quest pack, everything else in the pack besides the quests is free to f2p players. So at the end of the day the only chargeable content are the quests and a lousy lair raid.

If anything this will set a trend and if Vips and lifetime players fork out cash to buy it they will just do the same again down the road knowing they can get away with it. "Fool me once, shame on you, Fool me twice, shame on me".

Turbines biggest mistake was Lifetime subscriptions and they know it, but instead of just sucking it up and honouring there mistake they are now moving the goalposts trying to get lifetime subs and vip's to pay for quest packs.

[Wibz]

//forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?400762-Clearing-the-Truth-Up/page2#17

Ok, but that wasn't directly in reference to Instances and it's possible there is some content/feature that we don't know about. (though it's not looking very likely)

But if there is no other currently unannounced noteworthy content/features, then Sapience's post would be a blatant deception and deserves to placed with 'convenience not advantage' in the halls of Turbine's 'lies'.

[RicardoFurriel]

//forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?400762-Clearing-the-Truth-Up/page2#17

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...Truth-Up/page2

No need to apologize.

But someone posted in the other thread that poor Celestrata is left here with the wolves while everyone else is having a good one at Gamescom.

I can't help but feel bad. It took 2 days and 400 posts for Celestrata to have "permission" to post something. And even what was posted was one of these "Soon" answers.

Ps: remember the time when everyone laughed at "Soon"? Every answer was "Soon" and people were giggling and applauding how cute and funny of a response it was?

Ah ah ah. Is it still funny?

Cheers

[BellusDuFenna]

Wait, so one comment made by Sapience well before the "lack of instances" thing came up, is suddenly Turbine "repeatedly" touting this line in reference to the issue? While I agree that Sapience probably should not have tossed out that line, as it would inevitably come back to bite them in the ####, you can't really claim Turbine has been throwing that line around repeatedly in reference to RoI (or anything else, for that matter) when it was only used once.

This is what is called "a bit of a reach", folks.

[RicardoFurriel]

Wait, so one comment made by Sapience well before the "lack of instances" thing came up, is suddenly Turbine "repeatedly" touting this line in reference to the issue? While I agree that Sapience probably should not have tossed out that line, as it would inevitably come back to bite them in the ####, you can't really claim Turbine has been throwing that line around repeatedly in reference to RoI (or anything else, for that matter) when it was only used once.

This is what is called "a bit of a reach", folks.

That's why there's no reason for an apology. It is what it is.

[Wibz]

That's why there's no reason for an apology.

Well that's to be decided when RoI is released. Sapience's comment was in response to a comment saying that RoI lacked content/features, which basically says 'there is more coming, but we can't tell you yet', if there are no more content/features, then it's a blatant deception and definitely deserves an apology.

[RicardoFurriel]

Well that's to be decided when RoI is released. Sapience's comment was in response to a comment saying that RoI lacked content/features, which basically says 'there is more coming, but we can't tell you yet', if there are no more content/features, then it's a blatant deception and definitely deserves an apology.

The odds of winning the lottery are greater than getting an apology by the ppl in charge. If for nothing else, it would be a sign of weakness. And we all have big egos around here.

Cheers

[Wibz]

The odds of winning the lottery are greater than getting an apology by the ppl in charge. If for nothing else, it would be a sign of weakness. And we all have big egos around here.

Cheers

No doubt, the most likely outcome will be that Sapience's post will be deleted, and not for the first time...

[spiritintelligencia]

In my opinion, when you take the "Soon" and the "Absense of Evidence" mantras and you look at how these may have played into the RoI pre-order advertising... I can understand how people would feel rightfully angry.

I feel that there were probably alot of people who pre-ordered, fully expecting that more information about RoI would be released to flesh out the details in the pre-order.... but nothing really came.

Was this Turbine's fault? Did people assume too much... that there HAD to be more information coming, and more content that would be released (instances, etc)? Nobody likes to make assumptions and regret their decisions later.

The whole process with the pre-order this time seemed kind of murky... I am glad I did not pre-order.

[Bhoris_they_spider]

The possibility of no instances has been commented on pretty much since the E3 announcement. Instances were never going to be part of it. Turbine could have been more open and honest with their strategy rather than trying to keep the cat in the bag as long as possible to maximise revenues off people who assumed that any decent expansion would launch with a least a few new instances.

If they had chosen to be more open with the pre-order people would have grumbled a bit for sure but at least Turbine could have been applauded for its honesty. Instead they decided to take a more devious route to maximising revenue which will not sit well with a lot of people.

[Valiant_Turtle]

Like many I am moderately upset about the lack of instances at release and will probably ragequit if the instances later require a separate purchase. What is tempering my anger significantly is that the quality of the recent content has apparently been exceptional. My main is only lvl 58 so I haven't reached the In Their Absence or OD instances yet, but from what I've read they seem to be very high quality and enjoyable content. Both Inn of the Forsaken and Halls of Night seem to be popular and enjoyable. I've run Inn once and want to run it more, but I've had other priorities lately. Both new skirms are difficult offensives that seems to be exactly what many people wanted. Their track record for quality in this past year is really good.

I'm not too worried about the quantity of instances they eventually release for ROI as long as they are high quality. I'd probably be happy with 2-3 instances each for 3 and 6 man groups. Consider Moria: all I ever see is GS, HoC and School/Library. Everything else is generally only run for class quests.

[hallasan]

I disagree with an apology being required as the player-base is equally culpable for their expectation management, sense of entitlement and wanting more for less.

[Beleg-Of-Doriath]

I disagree with an apology being required as the player-base is equally culpable for their expectation management, sense of entitlement and wanting more for less.

One of the most ridiculous statements I've seen on this subject yet.


The playerbase is 'equally culpable' for assuming 'three regions' meant 'three zones' - which it always has in the past?
The playerbase is also 'equally culpable' for assuming at least one or two 3/6 man instances would be included in the expansion?
I suppose the playerbase is 'equally culpable' for Turbine not correcting this confusion and simply keeping silent in the hope of milking the pre-orders to the max?

Oh yes, those expectations are bang out of order. Definitely fits the bill of 'wanting more for less'.

[hallasan]

One of the most ridiculous statements I've seen on this subject yet.


The playerbase is 'equally culpable' for assuming 'three regions' meant 'three zones' - which it always has in the past?
The playerbase is also 'equally culpable' for assuming at least one or two 3/6 man instances would be included in the expansion?
I suppose the playerbase is 'equally culpable' for Turbine not correcting this confusion and simply keeping silent in the hope of milking the pre-orders to the max?

Oh yes, those expectations are bang out of order. Definitely fits the bill of 'wanting more for less'.

Yes, equally culpable for different reasons, particularly the issue of 'assuming'.

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi...L=ads-l&P=7605

[Beleg-Of-Doriath]

Yes, equally culpable for different reasons, particularly the issue of 'assuming'.

Obviously you're looking for any get-out-clause for Turbine you can find.

When Turbine advertises RoI as coming with 'three regions' then everyone assumed it would be three zones. This isn't a wild assumption - this is based on the games history. In the past such a statement has always meant actual zones. Turbine knew full well that is how the playerbase would take it so they went with it, got a load of pre-orders and still haven't properly corrected anyone even yet as far as I know.
It's deceptive marketing of the kind we've not seen with this game before.

The instances are slightly less of an issue. But it's a reasonable assumption to believe some would be included.

These weren't wild assumptions and ludicrous expectations people made. Your post was feeble.

[Southpa]

the player-base is equally culpable for their expectation management, sense of entitlement and wanting more for less.

Bull####.

Expectation is based in previous experience and future promise.

I have seen very little in the way of expectations that weren't in line with previous xpacs - or even a (continued) lower extrapolation of expectation relative to past xpacs.

For $30 today, you get considerably less than what you got for $30 the last 2 times they sold "expansions". That is a cold, hard FACT. This is not an expansion. It's Enedwaith 2.0 only XP will matter to everyone instead of some and you'll have to cough up $30 to do it.

"Wanting more for less"... that's freaking priceless, dude. (and by priceless I mean has zero value...in case you needed to be told)

The game has made the turn to catering mainly to F2P. A major release that offers the least ever - in magnitudes - to the subscriber/VIP. This is no longer our game.

[PypeRings]

In any other business transaction, we would just be gone. Nary a word.

MMO are designed however, to pull you in and make you feel invested in them. And we certainly do after years of playing. It not by chance or happy accident. It is by design.

So excuse us if we get a feeling of betrayal.

[hallasan]

The responses to 'equally culpable', 'assuming' and 'expectation management' are interesting given the countless threads/posts describing/decrying the changes in Turbine's business model while simultaneously holding Turbine to previous expectations.

My perspective is different. I enjoy the game and adapt to the changing business model until it reaches a mutually exclusive point. For me it hasn't. I also choose not to make an overwhelming emotional investment. Others have exercised their prerogative to make that investment and kudos to them. I just don't consider an overwhelming emotional investment as a credible argument as disappointment is revealed on the forums as vilification of Turbine which doesn't help and forces Turbine to say less and less as information and speculation by Turbine would be considered a promise by some regardless of qualifications.

So no, emotional pleas don't resonate for me and as a customer I don't consider an apology is required.

[Valiant_Turtle]

When Turbine advertises RoI as coming with 'three regions' then everyone assumed it would be three zones. This isn't a wild assumption - this is based on the games history. In the past such a statement has always meant actual zones. Turbine knew full well that is how the playerbase would take it so they went with it, got a load of pre-orders and still haven't properly corrected anyone even yet as far as I know.
It's deceptive marketing of the kind we've not seen with this game before.

You need to read the last part of Lowj's chat with Sapience. Sapience confirmed that there are indeed 3 separate maps and Lowj commented that it's quite large. On this issue they do seem to be meeting expectations.

[DorianFalkenmond]

Turbines biggest mistake was Lifetime subscriptions

no, the mistake was wasting much of the money made with this on .. summer festivals, outposts in the moors, legendary radiance and other amazing stuff.


but I´d agree that giving lifetimers 500 TP every months is over the top. I take it, but in my view, its not necessary. I have always exepcted to have to spend ~50$ a year for an expansion; I could instead collect the points and buy expansion with it, and so really play for free. I dont, I´ve bought me the big TP pack and will buy ROI with this.




I´m still looking forward to ROI. Will get me entertained for a good while. I have more problems when I think about what will come next. Will they continue to deliver so little? I hope, not..

[PypeRings]

I just don't consider an overwhelming emotional investment as a credible argument as disappointment is revealed on the forums as vilification of Turbine which doesn't help and forces Turbine to say less and less as information and speculation by Turbine would be considered a promise by some regardless of qualifications.

This notion that somehow them becoming less communicative is somehow the customers fault because we have objections to the products and prices we are offered and express them by the means provided is completely baseless. There is absolutely no evidence that this is the case beyond the supposition of those that want to defend their business practices.

They have chosen this path because they believe it maximizes their revenue, like almost all business decisions are.

[Beleg-Of-Doriath]

You need to read the last part of Lowj's chat with Sapience. Sapience confirmed that there are indeed 3 separate maps and Lowj commented that it's quite large. On this issue they do seem to be meeting expectations.

Maps don't equal zones. Bree-town and the Old Forest have their own maps, but they're still just areas within the zone of Bree-land.

I guess we'll have to wait and see exactly what comes. But my current opinion is that it will be one large full zone with the Gap of Rohan and Isengard as regions within it, each with their own maps.