Fairness towards consumers

[probitas]

Before Turbine went to consolidate the world servers, when they had contests, it was USA only. Rude, but whatever, it's your company, and it was just NA. Now though, apparently if you live in Germany, UK, or USA, you can win certain contests, but us Canadians, or anyone living anywhere else abroad, you get a big middle finger. I find that more than a little rude. Especially when they want you do something for them.

I don't see any reason to partake of your kool-aid, not when I'm not getting the same shake of the stick that the rest get. So sorry, Turbine, I won't be doing what you just asked me to do.

I think you should re-think your stance on this. My goodwill towards you is practically non-existent these days. But this kind of treatment as a 2nd class of consumer is the last straw. It's apparent that you do not value all of your customers equally. Some are obviously more equal than others. I understand it's optional on your part to offer things, and to have contests, but there is no more hiding behind 'tax laws' that prevent you from having Canadians or other nationalities entering in your contests anymore. Not when you've got Germans and UK citizens involved in them.

[VorpalK]

Your government in Canada places specific requirements and restrictions on promotions like this that are prohibitively expensive for any company like Turbine to abide by. Talk to your government about these requirements. There's nothing Turbine can do. They're not going to go to the expense or liability that including you would require. The countries you named that are included don't have these requirements.

It's really that simple.

[Hoppa_Joel]

Before Turbine went to consolidate the world servers, when they had contests, it was USA only. Rude, but whatever, it's your company, and it was just NA. Now though, apparently if you live in Germany, UK, or USA, you can win certain contests, but us Canadians, or anyone living anywhere else abroad, you get a big middle finger. I find that more than a little rude. Especially when they want you do something for them.

I don't see any reason to partake of your kool-aid, not when I'm not getting the same shake of the stick that the rest get. So sorry, Turbine, I won't be doing what you just asked me to do.

I think you should re-think your stance on this. My goodwill towards you is practically non-existent these days. But this kind of treatment as a 2nd class of consumer is the last straw. It's apparent that you do not value all of your customers equally. Some are obviously more equal than others. I understand it's optional on your part to offer things, and to have contests, but there is no more hiding behind 'tax laws' that prevent you from having Canadians or other nationalities entering in your contests anymore. Not when you've got Germans and UK citizens involved in them.

The only thing I can guess would be the cause of this would be how one country handles internet regulations vs granted and gained income.
I have not researched these laws to verify, but its possible that Canada's gift tax laws ( or something similar ) may be a reason.
I dunno, just guessing here.
I can understand your frustration.

[probitas]

Your government in Canada places specific requirements and restrictions on promotions like this that are prohibitively expensive for any company like Turbine to abide by. Talk to your government about these requirements. There's nothing Turbine can do. They're not going to go to the expense or liability that including you would require. The countries you named that are included don't have these requirements.

It's really that simple.

There are NO taxes on contests in Canada. A skill testing question is all. And what they are giving away has no value to them directly, so nothing to tax. Try using an intelligent argument.

See this, and read down to where it says: In some countries, lottery winnings are not subject to personal income tax, so there are no tax consequences to consider in choosing a payment option. In Canada, Australia, Germany, Ireland, Italy and the United Kingdom all prizes are immediately paid out as one lump sum, tax-free to the winner. In Liechtenstein, all winnings are tax-free and the winner may opt to receive a lump sum or an annuity with regard to the Jackpot prizes. In the United States, federal courts have consistently held that lump sum payments received from third parties in exchange for the rights to lottery annuities are not capital assets for tax purpose. Rather, the lump sum is subject to ordinary income tax treatment.

So if anyone gets taxed, its Americans.

I won an expansion from Funcom, Rise of the Godslayer, and there were no taxes. So I am sure it's a Turbine thing, and not at all a tax thing. They are being rude.

[chuimon]

Here is the official word that I found in a previous similar thread.

Rather than go back through the legal nightmares involved in running contest in multiple countries (which you've already read I see), I will say that we are investigating how to handle certain types of contests and giveaways in the future so that we can include as many players in as many places as possible. I've gotten some pretty crazy looks from the legal types around here, but they're looking into it. When they tell me something, I'll let you know.

Regarding things like screen shot contests, codes via twitter, etc. these have always been open to whoever happens to win the codes. Until now the Turbine Point codes haven't been especially useful to Codemasters players as the codes only worked on the NA service, but starting June 1 that issue goes away. In the case of these contests there will only be one contest open to all players. So no, this type of thing will not have an 'US and them" split giveaway.

After June 1, except where legally impossible, the idea of "US and them" will not exist within the LOTRO community.

I suspect the answer is still the same.

[danno8]

You know I once started a contest at a retail store I managed with our customers. The prize was a free movie night which included some Coke and Popcorn etc...

My area manager nixed the idea because we had a draw for the winner and that would be considered a lottery and a lottery requires a liscence and very specific rules. Those rules had to be posted for everyone to see and blah blah blah.

My point is that certain countries have certain laws that make contests overly complicated and prohibitive. Why would you think Turbine was excluding Canada? I'm sure they would love to include as many customers as possible.

[Lochhi]

Before Turbine went to consolidate the world servers, when they had contests, it was USA only. Rude, but whatever, it's your company, and it was just NA. Now though, apparently if you live in Germany, UK, or USA, you can win certain contests, but us Canadians, or anyone living anywhere else abroad, you get a big middle finger. I find that more than a little rude. Especially when they want you do something for them.

I don't see any reason to partake of your kool-aid, not when I'm not getting the same shake of the stick that the rest get. So sorry, Turbine, I won't be doing what you just asked me to do.

I think you should re-think your stance on this. My goodwill towards you is practically non-existent these days. But this kind of treatment as a 2nd class of consumer is the last straw. It's apparent that you do not value all of your customers equally. Some are obviously more equal than others. I understand it's optional on your part to offer things, and to have contests, but there is no more hiding behind 'tax laws' that prevent you from having Canadians or other nationalities entering in your contests anymore. Not when you've got Germans and UK citizens involved in them.

Would you like a hanky?

[probitas]

You know I once started a contest at a retail store I managed with our customers. The prize was a free movie night which included some Coke and Popcorn etc...

My area manager nixed the idea because we had a draw for the winner and that would be considered a lottery and a lottery requires a liscence and very specific rules. Those rules had to be posted for everyone to see and blah blah blah.

My point is that certain countries have certain laws that make contests overly complicated and prohibitive. Why would you think Turbine was excluding Canada? I'm sure they would love to include as many customers as possible.

Because if FUNCOM can give me an expansion pack digitally worth about 50 bucks US with no problem, I have a hard time believing Turbine has more problems with similar issues. Even if FUNCOM is from NORWAY.

[probitas]

Would you like a hanky?

I don't think you'd be so flippant if you knew what you could win.

[Altism]

Hmm well as i Canadian i do find that us and other non US countries really get the shaft when it comes to Prizes. I for one do not understand that in granting turbine points or in game content one can tax a non real item or give it a monetary value as said item is not real nor has any real world value. I have entered several contests involving US and Canada like coca-cola or other companies that give prises to US and Canadian residents so i find the use of saying it is our government in Canada doing it all makes no sense and i think you have to revaluate that equation.

[Arbalister]

There are NO taxes on contests in Canada. A skill testing question is all. And what they are giving away has no value to them directly, so nothing to tax. Try using an intelligent argument.

No, it's a Canadian Law thing. Tax has nothing to do with it:

Part VII of the Canadian Criminal Code deals with the "Disorderly Houses, Gaming & Betting" (Sections 197 through 213). The law makes it illegal to profit from gaming or betting, with notable exceptions - Provincial lotteries, licensed casinos and charity events.

This law prevents corporations from profiting from games of chance, like Subway's Scrabble and Tim Hortons' Roll up the Rim to Win contests. The only way companies can carry out these promotions and avoid breaking the law, is to exploit the fact that it is legal to allow prizes for games of skill (or mixed games of skill and chance). Thus, in order to hold a contest where one wins by chance, the game must include skill-testing questions.

(By court decision, the question must include three numbers to qualify as a "skill test".).

The same anti-gambling laws make it illegal to make money in exchange for playing the game, which results in "no purchase necessary" fine print one can see on the official rules and regulations for all such promotions. Thus, we can enter a contest by writing a letter and requesting a game piece or entry form.

Its a goofy law, it's uniquely Canadian, and its not a big surprise that companies disallow entries from Canada. Note, also, that different laws apply in Quebec - so many such contests, even in Canada, state "except Quebec."

[Zarador]

No, it's a Canadian Law thing. Tax has nothing to do with it:

Part VII of the Canadian Criminal Code deals with the "Disorderly Houses, Gaming & Betting" (Sections 197 through 213). The law makes it illegal to profit from gaming or betting, with notable exceptions - Provincial lotteries, licensed casinos and charity events.

This law prevents corporations from profiting from games of chance, like Subway's Scrabble and Tim Hortons' Roll up the Rim to Win contests. The only way companies can carry out these promotions and avoid breaking the law, is to exploit the fact that it is legal to allow prizes for games of skill (or mixed games of skill and chance). Thus, in order to hold a contest where one wins by chance, the game must include skill-testing questions.

(By court decision, the question must include three numbers to qualify as a "skill test".).

The same anti-gambling laws make it illegal to make money in exchange for playing the game, which results in "no purchase necessary" fine print one can see on the official rules and regulations for all such promotions. Thus, we can enter a contest by writing a letter and requesting a game piece or entry form.

Its a goofy law, it's uniquely Canadian, and its not a big surprise that companies disallow entries from Canada. Note, also, that different laws apply in Quebec - so many such contests, even in Canada, state "except Quebec."

+Rep for a well stated post.

Some of the townships in our state in the US also have some obscure laws in place. To promote business and some good will, our outlet center conducted bingo games with prizes donated by the shop owners and no expense whatsoever to the consumer.

This went well for a few weeks until it was shutdown by the local law enforcement as the town code does not allow any type of winnings whatsoever without a gambling permit issued by the state. The cost would have been so prohibitive, not to mention the paperwork and background checks involved, so they dropped the bingo. It would have taken about 6 months and over $5,000 to process the permit.

We also had to stop our hourly give away with free prizes for raffle tickets handed out to any patron with no purchase required as that was construed as gambling as well.

Blame the politicians, not the companies looking to drum up customers.

[danno8]

Because if FUNCOM can give me an expansion pack digitally worth about 50 bucks US with no problem, I have a hard time believing Turbine has more problems with similar issues. Even if FUNCOM is from NORWAY.

FUNCOM has offices in Canada. And perhaps they went through all the hoops and costs to make your contest legal and ligit. Bottom line is that you don't have all the facts as to why Turbine excludes Canada. My guess (and I don't think it's crazy to think this) is that it was a business decision, and probably not a personal one against all Canadians.

[Altism]

okay that would make sense if i was in a casino and betting cash but i am not i am playing a video game.not moving and selling assets so that point is moot i think. Also if a contest allows the reward toi be available in Germany, US and UK but not france,Spain, Portugal, Canada, hell the rest of the world how is that fair and make any sense. Especially when the regard is about contests and other companies offer it to Us and Canadian citzens..they got it to work why cannot Turbine or Warner Bros. I am sure they have corporate lawyers that can figure it out just like Coca-Cola and other game compnies do and offer it to Canada and the US. There is no tax on winnings at a Casino in Canada i cash out and walk. They do not taxe me for playing slot machines and besides we are talkign about a game a MMO not a run at the casino and gambling.

[Zarador]

Respectfully, the argument could just as easily be turned around with our new found friends on the servers causing the removal of the lottery system. Instead, I believe many of the US players are understanding in that going international forced a few unwelcome changes in the lottery system.

Oh, and Coca Cola has international offices. Turbine, even though a subsidiary owned by WB, is a US based firm offering services based out of the US. I would venture to say that a company operating out of Canada is subject to different laws than a company operating in the US.

[Altism]

So base an office in Canada ..hell put a server in my house..lol

[Lohi]

It is very common practice for contests to be restricted to certain regions. There are some exceptions but in general it's just too much of a headache to comply with all the rules of all the countries simultaneously. It is not intended as an insult.

[Yula_the_Mighty]

I am sure they have corporate lawyers that can figure it out just like Coca-Cola and other game compnies do and offer it to Canada and the US.

What you will see with companies like McDonalds and Coca-Cola is a bunch of restricted contests. McDonalds might run a French Quebec Canada contest. Run another English Canada contest. Run an American contest. Each with different rules. The cards and other pieces can not be combined. You got to turn them at McDonalds that supports that contest.

One big problem with running a combined contest is that you run into the null solution. In order to comply with one government laws you must break the laws of the other government. Even USA contests have a long list of places where the contest is not valid.

[probitas]

Respectfully, the argument could just as easily be turned around with our new found friends on the servers causing the removal of the lottery system. Instead, I believe many of the US players are understanding in that going international forced a few unwelcome changes in the lottery system.

Oh, and Coca Cola has international offices. Turbine, even though a subsidiary owned by WB, is a US based firm offering services based out of the US. I would venture to say that a company operating out of Canada is subject to different laws than a company operating in the US.

Yet some of those new friends from across the pond are able to be involved in this contest, with a shot at a prize some members of this community would find to be VERY much desired.

As far as tax laws go. If I go to Vegas and play the blackjack tables, and win, I pay my taxes like anyone else, then go to the legal office, get a form drawn up, and submit to have most of those winnings reimbursed to me because I'm not an American citizen. Same thing goes if I play the powerball. Pay taxes up front, then try to recoup later. When in the country, you follow the laws. So there is nothing stopping any US company from having a contest with no purchase necessary and no taxes. Because that's how things run here. Since they apparently can jump through the legal hoops for Germany and the UK, not having Canada or anyone else able to enter suggests they are too lazy to do it for us, or they just don't like us. And since they are now owned by WB, they have international offices. This site here is Warner Bros. Canada....now how much does your argument stand. They also have a UK presence and a German presence, so please stop pretending it's law. It's them being rude.

Australia, France, Spain, Italy, Portugal, and I could probably go on. Turbine staff are thinking too provincially, they are part of a worldwide corporation now. I could simply post the email, but I somehow think that would go over poorly.

[Arbalister]

okay that would make sense if i was in a casino and betting cash but i am not i am playing a video game.not moving and selling assets so that point is moot i think. Also if a contest allows the reward toi be available in Germany, US and UK but not france,Spain, Portugal, Canada, hell the rest of the world how is that fair and make any sense. Especially when the regard is about contests and other companies offer it to Us and Canadian citzens..they got it to work why cannot Turbine or Warner Bros. I am sure they have corporate lawyers that can figure it out just like Coca-Cola and other game compnies do and offer it to Canada and the US. There is no tax on winnings at a Casino in Canada i cash out and walk. They do not taxe me for playing slot machines and besides we are talkign about a game a MMO not a run at the casino and gambling.

It's got nothing to do with whether or not you're in a casino - it's got to do with a for profit company profiting from giving something away. The same law, as I noted above, governs roll up the rim, and subway's giveaway, etc. If there is any perception that they make *anything* from giving you a prize, they're liable under Part VII of the Canadian Criminal Code. So, to offer a prize to Canadian players, they have to a) prove your address, prove you age, ask a skill testing question (btw, have you ever won anything more substantial then a free coffee from Tims? I have - and the documentation that you have to complete and send in before you can claim the prize is hip deep in legalese), be prepared to provide proof that your entry was free, no purchase required, etc.

And that just federal law.

It gets more complicated the more granular you make it. agco.on.ca - the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario gets into the picture - and if they decide that the contest is a "lottery" you're looking at licences, application, etc. And even then - for total prize packages worth less then $50,000 - you get into needing municipal permits.

[probitas]

It's got nothing to do with whether or not you're in a casino - it's got to do with a for profit company profiting from giving something away. The same law, as I noted above, governs roll up the rim, and subway's giveaway, etc. If there is any perception that they make *anything* from giving you a prize, they're liable under Part VII of the Canadian Criminal Code. So, to offer a prize to Canadian players, they have to a) prove your address, prove you age, ask a skill testing question (btw, have you ever won anything more substantial then a free coffee from Tims? I have - and the documentation that you have to complete and send in before you can claim the prize is hip deep in legalese), be prepared to provide proof that your entry was free, no purchase required, etc.

And that just federal law.

It gets more complicated the more granular you make it. agco.on.ca - the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario gets into the picture - and if they decide that the contest is a "lottery" you're looking at licences, application, etc. And even then - for total prize packages worth less then $50,000 - you get into needing municipal permits.

LOTRO is f2p now, no purchase necessary. You could argue though that what is being requested could be considered labor...now what do the laws say about that?

[Yula_the_Mighty]

As far as tax laws go. If I go to Vegas and play the blackjack tables, and win, I pay my taxes like anyone else, then go to the legal office, get a form drawn up, and submit to have most of those winnings reimbursed to me because I'm not an American citizen.

You are not talking about contest law. You are talking about gambling law. Completely different set of rules.

[Arbalister]

LOTRO is f2p now, no purchase necessary. You could argue though that what is being requested could be considered labor...now what do the laws say about that?

So - VIP's aren't elegible? Premium players? It has to be provable in a court of law, that no profit was made by giving a prize. If anything the F2P model makes it *less* likely.

[Yula_the_Mighty]

LOTRO is f2p now, no purchase necessary. You could argue though that what is being requested could be considered labor...now what do the laws say about that?

Depends on what you win. Warner Brothers filed a value statement with the IRS in 2010 setting the Accepted Retail Value of a Turbine Point to one penny. WB gave away a 100,000 Turbine Points and issued a 1090 form to the IRS for one thousand dollars.

[Altism]

That is what you have international corporate lawyers for and WB is international. They have offices in Canada so if they host from Canada offering the contest from thier offices in Canada. That is what these corporate lawyewrs are paid for to find solutions. They don't then fire them all..get better ones that can do the job. Use Warner bros. legal end of it they deal with all the international stuff all the time. Turbine has to stop thinking small corporation anymore they are not just some backwater company based in US when they came into WB they became international.Everything they do internationally will reflect upon WB as well.