Middle-Earth throws it's weight around in the real world

[Nostro44]

See these articles about "The Hobbit" -

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ises-name.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2012/...obbit-pub-name

[Tuco]

I'm surprised at the contention that the literary rights SZ owns would cover a British pub's name and theme. Do "world-wide film, stage and merchandise" rights include this kind of thing if the pub connection is to the books rather than to the film, stage and merchandise? They do not have rights to the published books in the UK, so far as I know. Too bad they don't have enough gold or TP to take it to court.

[Fortinobrand]

If you owned an IP of value you'd protect it too. We're not just talking a bit of a homage here, the entire place is over-the-top infringement. That's how our laws are currently set up, and until they change that's what we have to follow. Maybe these people could build their business the same way I've had to -- value, customer satisfaction, and always quality. It is possible to succeed without leeching off someone else.

[Tuco]

If you owned an IP of value you'd protect it too. We're not just talking a bit of a homage here, the entire place is over-the-top infringement. That's how our laws are currently set up, and until they change that's what we have to follow. Maybe these people could build their business the same way I've had to -- value, customer satisfaction, and always quality. It is possible to succeed without leeching off someone else.

OK, but what are they infringing? It appears to me that they're infringing the books, not the movies or MMO or anything else that I think the SZ IP covers.

[Earenya]

The problem this guy has is he's branded his pub with the stuff from the books, not just the name. He would lose in court IMO. It's the same reason that pubs/bars have to pay to use music they play in the course of their business. You can't just turn on a radio station in a bar/pub and play the music without paying for it because the rights are owned by the record company. The same is true here.

I don't necessarily like it, but that is the way it is. My mom volunteers at a small town museum near where I live. It's a small building dedicated to the local history and barely squeakes by from donations. They set up a display of one of the local high school bands and played an old 8mm video from the 70's of them playing some oldie songs at a concert. They got a cease and desist letter from a record company (yes somehow someone turned them in, go figure) and could not even show the band playing the music because it was copyright infringement. Stupid. But there you have it.

[whheydt]

The Register picked it up as well.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

[Tuco]

The problem this guy has is he's branded his pub with the stuff from the books, not just the name. He would lose in court IMO.

Yes, my point is that it's branded with stuff from the books, not from movies or stage productions. It was my belief that the UK book rights are owned by the Tolkien Estate rather than by Saul Zaentz. If that's correct, then OK, he'd lose to the Tolkien Estate in court. But why would he lose to SZ, who is bringing this suit?

[Chyll_Elite]

OK, but what are they infringing? It appears to me that they're infringing the books, not the movies or MMO or anything else that I think the SZ IP covers.

Other reports I've read indicate the pub is using images from the films in material at the location, which is probably what triggered the attention after being in business for 20 years.

It is also owned by a large chain, so it is not 'the little guy' being persecuted by the big license organization as I have also seen stated. There is another thread on this somewhere....

edit: there is is http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...f-Middle-Earth

[Fionnuala]

If you owned an IP of value you'd protect it too. We're not just talking a bit of a homage here, the entire place is over-the-top infringement. That's how our laws are currently set up, and until they change that's what we have to follow. Maybe these people could build their business the same way I've had to -- value, customer satisfaction, and always quality. It is possible to succeed without leeching off someone else.

Anyone who thinks that they're protecting their IP by taking a source of free marketing to court is an idiot. It's not like the existence of a Hobbit themed pub would endanger the sales of media based on the IP in any way. If anything, it could only increase it.

[Ironcrown]

Wonder how many Hobbit themed restaurants there are around the world? That's a lot of lawsuits! Saul needs to be more reasonable. I bet some of these places have been in business longer than he's owned the rights!

[whheydt]

Wonder how many Hobbit themed restaurants there are around the world? That's a lot of lawsuits! Saul needs to be more reasonable. I bet some of these places have been in business longer than he's owned the rights!

That sort of thing can be a defense. I'm part of a group that runs an annual table-top gaming convention. Our name alludes to a very well known table-top RPG. However, the company that originated that game was well aware of our existence and name and did....nothing. Should the current owners of the IP go after us for our name, we could invoke the legal principle of estoppel, because the IP owners have known for many years and took no action and are--thus--prevented from taking legal action *now*.

(Disclaimer...IANAL, but I read a lot of articles on Groklaw.)

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

[Malindruel]

A lot of peeps are missing the entire point of this.......

It is not the theme of the pub that is in contention.

It is the NAME ... SZC has gone after everything that contains the word Hobbit, claiming they own the rights to it

The Hungry Hobbit cafe, Advert for Doors .. Have your own Hobbit entrance, now the Pub, The Hobbit. Are all falling foul of this Hollywood farce

The thing is ... SZC bought the rights to JRR Tolkiens work, which we won't dispute.

Hobbit is nothing to do with Tolkien's work.
It was in the English language 60 - 70yrs BEFORE Lord of the Rings Books was written.
It only became famous thru Prof Tolkiens work

SZC are suing everybody because they think they are trying to cash in on the film of the same name due out later this year.

And as known, The Hobbit Pub was around long BEFORE SZC bought the rights

I wonder gow many pubs would have to close down if the Royal Family started suing over the name
Or how long Hollywood would last when they get sued for use of a name that belongs to a UK district

[Chyll_Elite]

A lot of peeps are missing the entire point of this.......

It is not the theme of the pub that is in contention.

It is the NAME ... SZC has gone after everything that contains the word Hobbit, claiming they own the rights to it

The Hungry Hobbit cafe, Advert for Doors .. Have your own Hobbit entrance, now the Pub, The Hobbit. Are all falling foul of this Hollywood farce

The thing is ... SZC bought the rights to JRR Tolkiens work, which we won't dispute.

Hobbit is nothing to do with Tolkien's work.
It was in the English language 60 - 70yrs BEFORE Lord of the Rings Books was written.
It only became famous thru Prof Tolkiens work

SZC are suing everybody because they think they are trying to cash in on the film of the same name due out later this year.

And as known, The Hobbit Pub was around long BEFORE SZC bought the rights

I wonder gow many pubs would have to close down if the Royal Family started suing over the name
Or how long Hollywood would last when they get sued for use of a name that belongs to a UK district

If the pub wasn't directly pairing images from the movie with their establishment I'd be right there with you, but they blew up their ability to make this arguement by unavoidably linking themselves to the franchise use of the term.

[Tuco]

A lot of peeps are missing the entire point of this.......
...
The thing is ... SZC bought the rights to JRR Tolkiens work, which we won't dispute.

OK, I'll dispute that. SZC bought the film and stage rights to LotR and The Hobbit. Not the book rights.

Hobbit is nothing to do with Tolkien's work.
It was in the English language 60 - 70yrs BEFORE Lord of the Rings Books was written.
It only became famous thru Prof Tolkiens work

I'll dispute this also - it's not in my Oxford English Dictionary. My understanding is that Tolkien made up the first line of The Hobbit before knowing what the whole work was going to be, and the word appeared for the first time in manuscript at that point.

And as known, The Hobbit Pub was around long BEFORE SZC bought the rights

The pub apparently adopted its name around 1989. Tolkien sold the film and stage rights in 1969. SZC bought these film and stage rights in 1976.

Wonder how long before he finds The Other Change of Hobbit... the original Change of Hobbit closed ages ago.

[NickStern]

Such Completely wrong info being tossed about as fact.....

SZC has held the world wide distributuin and licensing rights to the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings Trilogy since 1976....
Long before this huge Pub Chain Started useing the name Hobbit on one of its Pubs and even longer before the started useing images from the movies including a picture of Elijah Wood from the movie on thier loyalty card.

This link will explain how long SZC has held the rights and where they came from.....
Before SZC held the licensing rights UA did back to 1969 so no one since then has any right to use any copyrighted Trademarked material without proper Prior approval.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-earth_Enterprises

To claim that someone can steal the IP of another that is protected via a company Like SZC, hired and retained to do exactly what most of us should want protecting the rights of the little guy the, Tolkien estate is really silly.
To use it with out license without paying royalties is theft and if you do that you risk exactly what is now happening.

[NickStern]

OK, I'll dispute that. SZC bought the film and stage rights to LotR and The Hobbit. Not the book rights.

You are incorrect on that they hold world wide distribution rights to the Books The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings Trilogy any and all creations made from them as adaptions including the movies and stage shows all originate from the books.
J.R.R. Tolkien himself sold these rights to UA in 1969.
SZC took over in managing the IP distribution and publishing rights in 1976.

Again See this Link.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-earth_Enterprises

Further the game we are all here playing LOTRO is licensed to Turbine from SZC and is based only on the books they have no rights what soever to incorporate anything from the movies. They have to be very carefull in that regard.
So use this huge Pub Chain is in viloation of the Law and should know better.
They are not some mom and pop little Pub that is trying to Pay Homage to Tolkien In a well meaning yet misdirected way.

[Tuco]

You are incorrect on that they hold world wide distribution rights to the Books The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings Trilogy any and all creations made from them as adaptions including the movies and stage shows all originate from the books.
J.R.R. Tolkien himself sold these rights to UA in 1969.
SZC took over in managing the IP distribution and publishing rights in 1976.

Again See this Link.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-earth_Enterprises

I quote from that page:

J. R. R. Tolkien, the author of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, sold the film, stage and merchandising rights of those works to United Artists in 1968, who in turn sold them to the Saul Zaentz Company in 1976 which licenses them through Tolkien Enterprises.

It did and does not include the book rights. The most recent of the many editions of LotR I have on my shelf is the 50th anniversary edition, one volume, gold edges, that says it's published by Houghton Mifflin. No mention of Saul Zaentz.

[DobbelB_EU]

I hope he just covers the paintings up untill 2043. The aniversary of the death of someone great should never be something to be happy about, but in that case, it will be.

It's just a fanpub, like there are fansites. Interpreting a law literaly may prove out they are infringing copyrights. But there are doing harming nobody. It's ridiculous for a company to be so narrow-minded.

[Ironcrown]

Such Completely wrong info being tossed about as fact.....

SZC has held the world wide distributuin and licensing rights to the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings Trilogy since 1976....
Long before this huge Pub Chain Started useing the name Hobbit on one of its Pubs and even longer before the started useing images from the movies including a picture of Elijah Wood from the movie on thier loyalty card.

This link will explain how long SZC has held the rights and where they came from.....
Before SZC held the licensing rights UA did back to 1969 so no one since then has any right to use any copyrighted Trademarked material without proper Prior approval.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-earth_Enterprises

To claim that someone can steal the IP of another that is protected via a company Like SZC, hired and retained to do exactly what most of us should want protecting the rights of the little guy the, Tolkien estate is really silly.
To use it with out license without paying royalties is theft and if you do that you risk exactly what is now happening.

I happen to know of one such place that's been in operation since 1972 and even has it's own website. I do not know if they legally have aquired the rights to use The Hobbit and all its affliated names/places/etc. You can order sandwhiches with names like Gandalf, the Withy Windle, and Smaug's Delight among many others and wash it all down with a Misty Mountain or Mithril Mix Smoothie or even a Pippen Pina Colada. The place looks like a Hobbit hole and even has a round door! I need to take my boys there soon...they'd love it!

[Celestrata]

Guys, we already have a thread discussing this in off-topic, as this story is not explicitly LOTRO related. Please search around a bit before you post your topic, just to make sure it hasn't already been started.

Thank you!