More blind choices with Shades of the Past. Turbine, this is not fun

[Lazlo_Hollyfeld]

Did you not learn your lesson with the Enedwaith Andreg anger?
Or the Dunland Andreg anger?

(boy, I'm glad we're rid of that character)

1) Do not force us to make choices that close off content. Much of the fun of this type of game is experiencing content. Why would you close some of it off? This is not "good storytelling". This is annoyance.

2) Do not force us to make blind choices. How the HECK am I supposed to know the consequences of choosing one side over the other? Blind choices like this are not "fun". All they serve to do is take me out of the game to a wiki or forum to find out what the correct choice is. This is not immersive. This does not make me feel like i'm more involved in the game world. You know what I'm going to do if I can't find any info on what the consequences are to this "choice"? I'm going to log off the character until some other poor schmuck gets screwed by choosing the wrong one and posts the results.

3) Your quest UI is horrible here. When I talk to one of the guys, the only button on the window for the quest is the "continue" button. So very many people will feel trapped, not realizing there's a tiny "x" button on the top right or that you can just walk away. Your UI should create a Pit of Success, not stress and frustration.


So ya, I haven't progressed on this quest because I have no idea if the choice is irrelevant or if it will seriously handicap me. So I wait. I wait and write negative feedback on the forums. This experience makes me want to sit the responsible person down and bonk them on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.

[Catisa]

Sorry, disagree 110%, I wish we had to make MORE choices, this would make sending several alts through the same path not nearly as boring.

[Lazlo_Hollyfeld]

Sorry, disagree 110%, I wish we had to make MORE choices, this would make sending several alts through the same path not nearly as boring.

Turbine shutting out content with a blind choice is not required for a person to choose to skip some content to save it for an alt.

[Pieck]

I like that we can make choices, I really don't agree with you.

[Lazlo_Hollyfeld]

I like that we can make choices, I really don't agree with you.

You enjoy making blind choices with no information? You don't mind that you could be shooting your character in the foot? You don't mind that you could very well be adding weeks to some future grind that you haven't even been told about yet? (as happened with enedwaith andreg and golden tokens)

If you want to make choices about what content to do, that's cool. I generally don't do much in Angmar when I'm leveling an alt because it's a depressing zone. We don't need turbine enforcing it. Especially with a blind fork where we don't even know what content or opportunities we'd be missing.

[Uvirith]

I disagree too, I like the choices. I like it when some players have access to a faction and some players dont and vice versa. It adds a lot to the uniqueness of a character.

So disagree 100% with the OP

[Adanamir]

I also agree with those who support the ability to make choices. I was kind of surprised, but delighted how a decision to pursue certain quests led to consequences in reputation levels. And it wasn't such a blind choice, as the quest text implied that what you are doing would hurt this other faction.

In fact, I wish this was implemented much more in the Dunland region, where you help to opposing factions (the Dunlendings and Rohan). I know it may be irritating that you suddenly lost reputation with one faction and won with another, but it's not such a big deal, not to mention that there are plenty of easy repeatable quests to get back your lost reputation.

[Lazlo_Hollyfeld]

I also agree with those who support the ability to make choices. I was kind of surprised, but delighted how a decision to pursue certain quests led to consequences in reputation levels. And it wasn't such a blind choice, as the quest text implied that what you are doing would hurt this other faction.

In fact, I wish this was implemented much more in the Dunland region, where you help to opposing factions (the Dunlendings and Rohan). I know it may be irritating that you suddenly lost reputation with one faction and won with another, but it's not such a big deal, not to mention that there are plenty of easy repeatable quests to get back your lost reputation.

This isnt' the "ability" to make choices. We've ALWAYS had the ability to make choices. I always had the ability to help the Eglain or not. Or to explore all of forochel or not. etc.

This game mechanic is REMOVING choices by shutting out content. And not only that, but removing content that I don't even know about yet at the time I have to make the decision to remove it.

[Uvirith]

This game mechanic is REMOVING choices by shutting out content. And not only that, but removing content that I don't even know about yet at the time I have to make the decision to remove it.

And we´re all good with that. In fact, everyone likes it, except you ;-)

But one thing shold be implemented alongside with the crossfaction-choices, a list with the rewards for each faction before the ultimate decision.

[Lazlo_Hollyfeld]

And we´re all good with that. In fact, everyone likes it, except you ;-)

But one thing shold be implemented alongside with the crossfaction-choices, a list with the rewards for each faction before the ultimate decision.

Go take a look at the rage threads about andreg's surprises and you will find plenty of people who are not fans of this change of design direction in the game. From my perspective, the game is being hostile because some people need to be told what to do rather than using their own willpower to choose for themselves.

[Tamiya]

There is nothing inherently wrong with choices. The NPCs present their cases, and you pick the one path that fits the character you're roleplaying. I don't see how you can argue that that is "not immersive". That is precisely what RPGs are all about.

The general complaint with that Enedwaith quest is that the rewards are not equal. If you make the "wrong" choice it becomes a little bit harder to farm reputation with another faction.

In the case of Shades of the Past, the rewards are different but equal.

In ROI, there's a quest in Dunbog where you have to choose between two NPCs, and you get different but equal rewards as well. Nobody complained about that one.

[moebius92]

Go take a look at the rage threads about andreg's surprises and you will find plenty of people who are not fans of this change of design direction in the game. From my perspective, the game is being hostile because some people need to be told what to do rather than using their own willpower to choose for themselves.

Actually, from what I remember of those threads, the people raging were raging because they didn't do what you did - they failed to read the quest text and realize they were shutting themselves out of content, and either finished or accepted a quest that they might not've if they'd read the quest text.

[Macfeast]

I'd say that Turbine did indeed learn their lesson with what happened in Enedwaith. The way I read the outrage, the problem there wasn't that they offered you a choice, the problem was that many perceived one of the choices to be noticeably worse than the other; Picking the wrong quest ended up permanently decreasing the amount of Algraig-rep you could obtain daily, further increasing the time it would take you to reach Kindred with the Algraig. With Grey Company-rep relatively easy to get by already, it's understandable that many didn't enjoy it; Picking the wrong quest would ultimately make things harder for you, and felt like a punishment.
That doesn't seem to be the case with the choices we are given in the Rushgore, the consequences doesn't seems anywhere near as drastic. While I haven't finised both questlines on different characters, the impression I'm getting is that the only difference in terms of rewards between these two questlines is which of the two repeatable quests in the Brown Lands you get a bonus for; Apart from that, they only differ in which storyline we are given. Nowhere near as drastic as what happened in Enedwaith, and you aren't really punished for choosing wrong, because both questlines will net you roughly the same in terms of rewards. Had the same been true for the choice we were given in Enedwaith, I don't think there would have been an outrage.

The way it seems to me, many don't seem to think of the choices as a problem unless picking the wrong quest ends up gimping you; When the differences are purely storyline-related, and one choice isn't noticeably better than the other, it seems many enjoy being given a choice. The perfect example would be the choice between telling Halros to stay in the Shire, and telling him to go with the Grey Company; So far, the only differences have been in the Epic storyline, and no one side has felt slighted by being given worse rewards, or being locked out of content. So far, I haven't seen any outrage about it, unlike what we saw with the Enedwaith-choice; That tells me that the problem doesn't lie with being given a choice, but with the outcomes not being equal.

As long as the outcome from our choices are roughly equal, so that people don't feel that they gimp themselves by picking one over the other (which was the case in Enedwaith), I think it's great to be given a choice. With consequences being equal, people can pick whatever they think works best in terms of the overall story, instead of meta-thinking and going "picking this one will net me the better rewards." It leads itself to more immersive storytelling, and giving players the illusion that their choices matter, something that has been missing up until now.

On another note, if the choices weren't blind, wouldn't that spoil the storylines? SPOILER-WARNING (highlight to read):
If I knew right away that choosing to pardon the oath-breakers would lead to them lending me aid in the Brown Lands, it wouldn't be anywhere near as satisfying as finding it out as part of the storyline. Being given that summoning-horn was a very rewarding experience, and it felt like what I did really mattered; It wouldn't have been the same if I knew about the reward from the start (which I actually think is one of the issues with quest-rewards being presented upon selecting a quest, rather than upon finishing it).

[Aeggil]

I actually like this kind of choice and I would like to see more of it instead of all characters progressing the same way with the same rewards.

Choices make storylines more interesting and also encourage us to actually read and listen to the quest-givers and feel like we are making a difference to the story. What fun is there in quests where no matter what you do the outcome is the same? That's more like reading a book than playing and interactive game.

It's a shame there's not more of this, but I guess these days everybody wants every reward offered to them regardless of their choices and cause outcry if they don't get it.

I do however agree that the UI might need some tweaking in situations like this, after tracking an old goat it should have been clear to turbine that many people are unaware that a choice between a 'continue' button or the little 'x' at the top right is not a clear choice and most just press the only available button. Why not add a 'go back' or 'decline' button to dialogues like this?

C

[telbric]

Disagree entirely.

The more branching content and exclusive choices you have to make, the better. MMOs are already horrible in the regard that nothing you do has any lasting consequences, so even small steps like this are a good direction.

[Hydragyrum]

I too am going to have to disagree with the OP, even so much as to say that I want more blind branches in the game. What fun is knowing exactly what is going to happen around every turn in a story? Besides, even the Aldraig fiasco was more of an annoyance than "shooting your character in the foot". It's not like you actually lost access to any substantial content or rewards. LoTRO questing has been way too linear lately - it's good to see some traditional RPG branching.

[Nostro44]

This isnt' the "ability" to make choices. We've ALWAYS had the ability to make choices. I always had the ability to help the Eglain or not. Or to explore all of forochel or not. etc.

This game mechanic is REMOVING choices by shutting out content. And not only that, but removing content that I don't even know about yet at the time I have to make the decision to remove it.

I agree with this, you're losing some content that you have no information about. Not everybody has the time or inclination to run multiple alts and do both sides.

[Fortinobrand]

Did you not learn your lesson with the Enedwaith Andreg anger?
Or the Dunland Andreg anger?

(boy, I'm glad we're rid of that character)

1) Do not force us to make choices that close off content. Much of the fun of this type of game is experiencing content. Why would you close some of it off? This is not "good storytelling". This is annoyance.

2) Do not force us to make blind choices. How the HECK am I supposed to know the consequences of choosing one side over the other? Blind choices like this are not "fun". All they serve to do is take me out of the game to a wiki or forum to find out what the correct choice is. This is not immersive. This does not make me feel like i'm more involved in the game world. You know what I'm going to do if I can't find any info on what the consequences are to this "choice"? I'm going to log off the character until some other poor schmuck gets screwed by choosing the wrong one and posts the results.

3) Your quest UI is horrible here. When I talk to one of the guys, the only button on the window for the quest is the "continue" button. So very many people will feel trapped, not realizing there's a tiny "x" button on the top right or that you can just walk away. Your UI should create a Pit of Success, not stress and frustration.


So ya, I haven't progressed on this quest because I have no idea if the choice is irrelevant or if it will seriously handicap me. So I wait. I wait and write negative feedback on the forums. This experience makes me want to sit the responsible person down and bonk them on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.

Your combined needs of total control and instant gratification are not what should shape the gameplay for the rest of us.

We are part of an epic struggle of good vs. evil.. In any such struggle there will be a lot of decisions to make, and some of those decisions will be mutually exclusive, and most of the time we will only be able to hope or guess as to the outcome of the choice.

This particular choice is clear: are the Oathbreakers irredeemably evil, and therefor must be defeated to protect the innocent, or can the Oathbreakers still make a choice to do what's right? Pick the one that your character believes, and play through. You are not "shooting yourself in the foot" -- you are experiencing and now even shaping a story as it unfolds.

If you can't cope with the stress of having to make a story choice in a game, then interactive media is a poor choice for you. Go read a printed book where there are no choices to be made, or go sit in front of the TV and be spoon-fed safe and easy fluff.

[Belechael]

Lmao!

Lazlo, only Nostro understood your post.

For what it's worth, I also agree with you, but you are talking to deaf people here...

[djheydt]

When I talk to one of the guys, the only button on the window for the quest is the "continue" button. So very many people will feel trapped, not realizing there's a tiny "x" button on the top right or that you can just walk away.

People who have been using anything on the Internet for more than a couple of days, who don't realize what the tiny 'x' button in the upper right is for, have a bigger problem than the one you describe.

[Hydragyrum]

Lmao!

Lazlo, only Nostro understood your post.

For what it's worth, I also agree with you, but you are talking to deaf people here...

I think we all understand his post, that's just not how we want to play an RPG. There's nothing wrong with wanting linear story lines, but RPGs are probably not the right genre to play to experience such gameplay. RPGs typically have choices you must make that permanently impact the story. In order to experience "all" the content in an RPG you typically have to play through it several times. Alt-heavy MMORPGs like LoTRO should be no exception, and in fact make leveling alts incredibly boring without some story branching.

[ararax2]

First of all, Algraig rep is easy to get, there were a ton of quests to get it. Now with continued Vol 3 Grey Company rep is pretty easy to get as well.

Gold Tokens are also easy to get if you want to find a group, or still easy to get via collecting eggs and killing sig drakelings.

I agree that for different (non moral) choices the rewards should be semi equal.

Ale Association and Inn League both offer similar rewards.

Enedwaith offers rep + coins

WinterFest offered cosmetics for both.

The Dunland split offered similar rewards and let you follow the other path as well.

I think when dealing with a rep grind, Theodred vs Dunland, SOME quests that decreased rep would have been cool.

But in such cases they should greatly increase rep with the giving faction. Such as +2k Theodred rep - 500 Dunlad rep.

But I do think they need to make sure that the choices are well laid out.

[Ceejay90]

" You enjoy making blind choices with no information? "
This is a conflict.....it is "BLIND" Not sure how it could be blind with full information!
I have no problem with this....I am sure during the journey the Company faced many blind choices. Come on I hate to say it but this is a game...enjoy it for what it is...the best MMOLRPG around

[Jiraiyaisnolia]

I think we all understand his post, that's just not how we want to play an RPG. There's nothing wrong with wanting linear story lines, but RPGs are probably not the right genre to play to experience such gameplay. RPGs typically have choices you must make that permanently impact the story. In order to experience "all" the content in an RPG you typically have to play through it several times. Alt-heavy MMORPGs like LoTRO should be no exception, and in fact make leveling alts incredibly boring without some story branching.

I agree. We've always had to make choices that affect our characters long term.

To an extent, even choosing our race and class 'locks out content', in the form of racial intro quests, class quests, and skill sets. (I've heard complaints about this too).

EDIT: As a side note, my daughter recently played a console RPG that had 8 alternate endings, and she has played thru the game several times already, making differant choices that changed the final outcome, sometime drastically. LOTRO hasn't had much of this, and, as such, a certain element of play is missing IMHO.

[RJFerret]

Yes, choices = good

Yes, blind choices = bad (those limit options, removing choices)

More options = good

It is hilarious so many claim to disagree with the OP, then continue to say they want the same as the OP.

There was a choice in Enedwaith? I had no clue. (Bad design.)

Andreg wasn't a choice, it's was blind, even if you read everything AND external resources, the game more than likely screwed you. (Bad, broken design.)



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave