Getting the Community back to where it needs to be

[Minquinn]

As someone who has played 4 MMO's in my experience the community is what attracts new players to the game. After I quit WOW I wanted to play a game that had a great community so I could easily integrate myself into the game and learned everything I had to know to make my experience enjoyable.

When I first started looking for new games I did extensive research before picking a game. This included youtube videos, wiki's and asking around with friends to see what was a really great game. Something I also did was hit up the forums before playing said game. The general forum. After checking out some f2p games at the time I chose to play DDO. I was familiar with the DND universe (something we played as teenagers) and I wanted to come home. Even though the forum community was great the in game community was not there.

That's when I decided to play this game. Before I did I saw a great video about the difference between WOW and LOTRO that helped me make my decision. My next step was to check out the general discussion forum. This was back in the days when the Moria xpac was out going into the MW xpac. Way back then the forum community was exactly what I was looking for. The posts were basically players helping other players. Good feedback about the game and some valid complaints as well.

I'm not sure what exactly happened because mainly I used the forum to fix the game, figure out a quest, find a kin or just ask questions. Sometimes I offered some suggestions about the content. So, over the last couple weeks that I have been revisiting the general discussion forum I've seen some disturbing behavior. I've gotta tell ya if I was choosing a new MMO and using the general forum as a basis for my decision I would have avoided this game like the plague.

I know we are in a new error of the internet where some believe flaming or trolling is acceptable and makes you look cool. But I think that we all including myself need to think about what we are typing. Do we want to grow this game? Do we want it to end up like WOW, where every single thread gets trolled or flamed. I don't think we do. If anything bringing new players to the game actually helps the community. It starts right here with us the players.

The attitudes from some of the posters/thread starters is showing us in a bad light.

So folks from one Hobbit to men elf and dwarf alike please can we start using just a little personal responsibility on this forum? Seriously lets bring the community back to where it was when I started playing. The devs make the game but a lot of times we are the ones keep players and getting new ones.

I'd like to hear some responses how the community was when you got here and if you think it has changed as I do.

[Firebryt]

I agree completely. This seems to have occurred around the time it went F2P and the influx of new people into the game. I didn't have a clue what to do when I started in 2008-2009 and the forums and Lorebook were my best friend until I found my kin. Now I spend a lot less time in the forums. +Rep for your post and for a positive post in the forums :-)

Peace!
Haladain

[valentiir]

Not native English. My apologies for grammar and spelling mistakes

I'll share my thoughts on this.

I think that somewhere around Isengard this company entered in "milking mode". Bugs are not addressed unless they really disturb the drop balances,content is constantly droped into the game but the bugs it brings are mostly ignored,community complaints and/or suggestions have little to no effect and so the older players started to migrate to other MMO's. The behaviour of the community changed from Moria,when the game was brought to free-to-play,to the community we have today because the "nice" behaviour that was the norm back then and was "passed down" to the new players became more and more diluted as the older players started to leave and the new players brouht in the more "agressive" stance that seems to be the norm in most of MMO's nowadays.

I came to this game when it was opened to free-to-play and i felt these changes but for good or bad this is what we have today and i think that it will be difficult to revert it.

[Skavenaps]

i dont think that everyone changed but you. Community never changed, you did. You lost your illusions and trying to go back on the past to recover them. Life dont work that way.

[qweqwrq]

I don't think the community has changed, but the topics of conversation have. There has been much to complain about, so the forums have been filled with such complaints and anger and frustration. When the problems are worked out and the air cleared, the forums will settle back to mid-point, a healthy mix of humor, help, and trolling, lol. I play WoW too, and LOTRO at the same time. I don't find one to be superior to the other, just different.
Oh - joined two tears ago f2p.

[Nymphonic]

I've been here in these forums since launch day way back in 2007. To me, the forums were a lot more vicious and mean back then. Posters making totally ridiculous comments like Turbine was sexist because there were more male quest givers than female, the forum trolls were alot more meaner too. Undying's trolling is nothing compared to the likes of Travia or Shevensmith. And the lore fanatics that insulted anyone that did not mind some deviations from the lore.

The feeling that I get from the community now is that everyone is tired and wore out. Tired of a beta forum that is approaching 3 years. Pvpers are tired of waiting for a new zone.

I don't see the energy in the forum members that I did years ago. I see a feeling of resignation that things will not change.

[Bhoris_they_spider]

I think this is a trend of every single internet forum to be honest. As soon as someone gets 'out-debated' or a series of counter points are posted in response to their 'amazing idea', instead of trying to debate further or argue against the counter points they simply do one of the following

1) Accuse the poster of trolling
2) Use a latin phrase to counter the argument in an attempt to make themselves look more intelligent
3) Accuse the poster of a 'straw-man' argument - I have no idea what this is btw but I see people bring it out all the time now.
4) Try to find any element of hypocrisy or conflict in repvious posts and jump all over it

In my experience it tends to be people who are unable or too lazy to respond to posts propely who resort to the above.

[warriorpoetex]

World Peace has a higher chance of happening than getting any MMO Forum to a place of constructive discussion as the norm.

[Minquinn]

World Peace has a higher chance of happening than getting any MMO Forum to a place of constructive discussion as the norm.

Yup but it is worth trying. I have made a vow to myself that I will use personal responsibility when I use the forum from now on. I was hoping some other might read this thread and think about it for a second and maybe how it effects the game.

[Runesi_EU]

I think you exaggerate the issue, there is a lot of complaining but most of it is constructive and genuine, I see less trolling here than elsewhere and indeed less here now than I have in the past.

I don't see the energy in the forum members that I did years ago. I see a feeling of resignation that things will not change.

I also agree with Nymphonic about there being a certain sense of resignation in peoples posts, there is a lot less passion in these forums than there used to be. I think we are getting to the point where the community enjoy the game but no longer get excited by it which is sad.

[Souku]

if the game gets back to where it needs to be i'm sure the community will follow.

[Edrogar]

3) Accuse the poster of a 'straw-man' argument - I have no idea what this is btw but I see people bring it out all the time now.

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

[Kerin_Eldar]

3) Accuse the poster of a 'straw-man' argument - I have no idea what this is btw but I see people bring it out all the time now.

A strawman [argument] is a well-known argument distraction technique, basically it means someone counter argues with a point that's entirely artificial, which he proceeds to deploy as a diversionary tactic because he has no real counter argument.

Not sure of the 'latin' you refer to, 'ad hominem' would fit the bill and it's yet another distraction technique, where the 'troll' attacks on a personal level rather than addressing the issue: a typical one being "you're only level 20, wait till you're 85" in an argument where the level of one's character is entirely irrelevant but put forward as a reason to dismiss the other person as having worthless views.

[Nyrion]

I actually think the crappiness of these forums has something to do with this. Getting logged out constantly, having your wall'o'text posts getting erased wouldn't do wonders for people's temperaments I imagine, and it's hardly uncommon for people to take out their frustration over one thing on something else.

[Whart]

Interesting post and equally interesting responses. A few additional considerations (i.e. The Great Wall of Text) would include the following:

1. Some people are afraid that Turbine is desperately struggling financially and isn't adequately able to maintain the game or to continue to add content. Therefore, every time someone makes a suggestion, people for whom this suggestion is not a number one priority panic, because they believe implementation of that suggestion will take supposedly scarce resources away from the changes they feel are the number one priority. This leads to the 'The game is fine as is--if you don't like it, leave' arguments.

2. The breaking of the community site (not just forum problems, I'm primarily thinking blogs) at the time of f2p release (which has nothing to do with f2p, just same timing), drove away many of the great community ambassadors to other sites and discouraged new ones from taking their place. When the blogs were full of good fiction, poetry, game guides, music, artwork, etc., and those posts were prominently displayed and easy to find on the site, there was this great creative energy that made me, and maybe others, really excited about the game. It made me want to be a part of this mature, fun, creative community and helped me see an entertainment potential beyond just a pew-pew video game. Those folks are gone now, as are many other positive contributors to the forum community who simply gave up on trying to post (I'm taking bets on how many times I get logged out while posting this).

3. The new pattern of releasing pieces of expansions instead of entire expansions together has fueled the argument between people of different play styles. People have short memories and forget which pieces were actually part of the same development cycle. Players waiting on group content get annoyed that they have to wait on their content while others are happily doing the new solo content. Soloers get annoyed when the group content finally comes out because the groupers have received new content and they haven't. Both groups get annoyed when one or the other group comments on needed fixes to 'their' content or classes or systems because they feel that any fixes will mean that Turbine is focusing on somebody else's play style at the expense of their own (see point 1). It divides the community into 'us' and 'them'.

4. The bandaid approach to fixing things (like loot imbalances) by allowing a certain type of player to benefit from a problematic system for a brief period of time, then responding to complaints by simply dropping the feature entirely (like taking loot out of dailies, symbols away from Durchest and presumably BfE t1 soon, etc.) rather than taking the time to come up with a balanced, thoughtful system that benefits all players, accomplishes nothing other than to foster negative attitudes and further divide people. I know there is pressure to fix things quickly, but when Turbine takes its time and really thinks through a workable approach (as they did with the involuntary emote toggle for example), so many more people are happy.

5. As the game ages and adds content/features/systems, things break more often and more dramatically, and people want to hear that their concerns are being heard. There are few Turbine staff who engage with the community in a meaningful way (Scarycrow is to me the best example of positive and meaningful interaction) to ask about their concerns and really talk about them in a satisfactory level of detail, with respect and thoughtfulness.

What can we do? Stay, and remember that our fellow players are the reason that our beloved source of entertainment still exists, regardless of how our opinions differ. Always try to set an example of positive, constructive collaboration when making suggestions or voicing concerns. And remember that behind every forum post is a real human being.

[Bragard]

The good old days. hmm very often an illusory construct, and as some have metioned its more about the person then events, more often then not even the word communtiy is an illsion of tranquality and harmonious relationships. Askk yourself is where you live all fluffy rabbits and dancing round the may pole.

[MoonwalkIntoMordor]

The community has changed. This is a result of several things that has happened since launch.

• The game is six years old. Time alone is usually enough to change the nature of such an open forum. The novelty can only last so long.
• Went Free-to-Play. Massive influx of new players means a massive change in community.
• US and EU under one roof. The merging of two very different communities.
• Changes to the community management. Different people, different moderation.
• Most importantly, the constant changes to the design mentality of the game and how it is being commercialized. For the better or worse, changes to the game changes the community. The forums are just a platform to discuss the game and related subjects. What we talk about and how we talk about it are direct results of our game experience.

I know you are just asking people to be nicer. Yet it's naive to expect the community would "get back to where it needs to be" just through a forced sense of personal responsibility. A masquerade of niceness will only cover things up for a while, and it will just crumble again to reveal how people actually feel.

Bonus: There is also the utter disgrace that is the community website itself... Not just the forums, but everything attached to it. I forgot to mention this on my first attempt to post, but getting logged out reminded me to add it. Thanks Turbine.

[Glorfindel777]

The community has changed. This is a result of several things that has happened since launch.

• The game is six years old. Time alone is usually enough to change the nature of such an open forum. The novelty can only last so long.
• Went Free-to-Play. Massive influx of new players means a massive change in community.
• US and EU under one roof. The merging of two very different communities.
• Changes to the community management. Different people, different moderation.
• Most importantly, the constant changes to the design mentality of the game and how it is being commercialized. For the better or worse, changes to the game changes the community. The forums are just a platform to discuss the game and related subjects. What we talk about and how we talk about it are direct results of our game experience.

I know you are just asking people to be nicer. Yet it's naive to expect the community would "get back to where it needs to be" just through a forced sense of personal responsibility. A masquerade of niceness will only cover things up for a while, and it will just crumble again to reveal how people actually feel.

Bonus: There is also the utter disgrace that is the community website itself... Not just the forums, but everything attached to it. I forgotten to mention this on my first attempt to post, but getting logged out reminded me to add it. Thanks Turbine.

Well. That seems to sum it up. I still would like to see more elaborate posts. When I first started there seemed to be more music and player run events like concerts, artwork, and the like. That would definitely make the game more exciting an interesting to new players. On the other hand, some players that have been here a while DO seem to ostricize "Noob"s and Noops, even on the forums, which may lead to less interaction on the forums with plenty of creative people. I have not got logged out, but this has been auto-saved 4 times in the -make that 5- in the short time it took me to write this. Thank you LotRO!

[Valkrist]

2. The breaking of the community site (not just forum problems, I'm primarily thinking blogs) at the time of f2p release (which has nothing to do with f2p, just same timing), drove away many of the great community ambassadors to other sites and discouraged new ones from taking their place. When the blogs were full of good fiction, poetry, game guides, music, artwork, etc., and those posts were prominently displayed and easy to find on the site, there was this great creative energy that made me, and maybe others, really excited about the game. It made me want to be a part of this mature, fun, creative community and helped me see an entertainment potential beyond just a pew-pew video game. Those folks are gone now, as are many other positive contributors to the forum community who simply gave up on trying to post (I'm taking bets on how many times I get logged out while posting this).

This is definitely true for me, and for how many more I cannot count. Sadly, the platform used to help build and maintain our community has become more of an impediment than an implement in that regard.

And it looks like the blogging feature is going to be done away with entirely: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ging-Community

Whart, I am sure you have your journal saved somewhere besides here, but if not, please do so. Your writing is far too precious to lose.

[Tussock]

+rep for you sir I am feeling bad that i missed these times of LotRO. But your thread made me at least see how nice it was



PS:

So folks from one Hobbit to men elf and dwarf alike

I cannot believe you started hobbit with a capital and not the rest. That is racist

[Zithlinraiss]

I've been here in these forums since launch day way back in 2007. To me, the forums were a lot more vicious and mean back then. Posters making totally ridiculous comments like Turbine was sexist because there were more male quest givers than female, the forum trolls were alot more meaner too. Undying's trolling is nothing compared to the likes of Travia or Shevensmith. And the lore fanatics that insulted anyone that did not mind some deviations from the lore.

The feeling that I get from the community now is that everyone is tired and wore out. Tired of a beta forum that is approaching 3 years. Pvpers are tired of waiting for a new zone.

I don't see the energy in the forum members that I did years ago. I see a feeling of resignation that things will not change.

This sums up my feelings as well. I started 2 years later and am mostly a reader not a poster but I have noted a lack of excitement lately. Lotro is a fabulous game and hopefully with the revamp of the forums people will be able to post longer, more expressive posts without getting logged out. Perhaps that may generate more thoughtful and positive discussion of the game.

[maxjenius]

1) Accuse the poster of trolling

For too many, the definition of trolling is "disagreed with me and did so in a way I can't cogently reply to."

2) Use a latin phrase to counter the argument in an attempt to make themselves look more intelligent

A fortiori (doesn't fit, but it was the first Latin phrase I could think of).

3) Accuse the poster of a 'straw-man' argument - I have no idea what this is btw but I see people bring it out all the time now.

FYI, a straw man argument means assigning to the other side a position they do not not hold then attacking them based on that non-held position.

4) Try to find any element of hypocrisy or conflict in repvious posts and jump all over it

Well, hypocrisy is pretty telling.

In my experience it tends to be people who are unable or too lazy to respond to posts propely who resort to the above.

And don't forget attacking the person's spelling/typos.

Re: the OP, the forums are no more and no less rancorous than they have ever been.

[Minquinn]

I'll give some examples of what I have seen recently that disturbed me:

1. A page full of troll posts about 1 st age weapons
2. Several threads that underlying are trying to start a flame war between different playstyles
3. Posters linking definitions from wiki when tearing someones opinion to shreds

There probably a few more that I can not think of. One of the big reasons why I left WOW was that forum was still 100 times more bad off than this one. So yeah I'm not naive about the internet. Seeing the page full of closed posts was the most alarming part.

[Dotlbeme]

I have been here from the get go.

I'm not sure if the community has changed but it seems to me 90% of the posts in the General Forum, are complaints or criticisms of how the game has progressed.

If someone is not overly annoyed with the complaint in question, posts as such, they get flamed (I use the term loosely for several types of over-reactions).

This leads moderate posters to avoid these threads and you end up with flame wars between competing shouters.

There are some exceptions, but this type of forum behavior is not condusive to enlightened discussion. To be so entrenched in a position you feel the need to bombastically refute and resist ANY opposing veiwpoint, is not benefitting your cause. It is only making people over-react to your over-reaction, or just tune out completely.

My opinion is there are likely still reasonable posters out there, they are just being drowned out for the most part by the ruckus. The community is still here, they are just wary of wasting effort, putting out opinions that go in one 'eye' and out the other.

[Honvikuk]

I'm afraid these days the following terms are used ' Fanboi, Troll, Turbine hater, Turbine Lover ' these are the root of a lot of posts if people slate Turbine or defend their actions. Times sadly have changed and not wholly for the better.

The problem is a lot of people have their own idea how LOTRO should progress in terms of content and what they look want as their primary gamestyle and this clashes with others.

Mix this in with Turbine being unable to product the content its explosion waiting to happen.