deleted thread/post

[katistar4]

i find it very sad that you deleted the thread called 'A Few Final Words and Thanks' (formerly located at this address: forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?505783-A-few-final-words-and-thanks)

did you even read all of it?
did it bother you that much to see so many 5+ year players finding the game no-longer-satisfying?
did you disagree with our suggestions and our cry for help?
wouldnt you rather improve the game than hide the truth?

you have just strenghtened my resolve by taking my voice away. feel free to pretend this post never existed and delete/hide it too. i was not the OP on that thread i just agreed with that persons opinion and added my own, but you threw our thoughts away as if we are trash.

i will be calling customer service this evening to discuss refund potential. like i had said in the post, i was sticking it out because i still had hope, but youve just crushed that.

[Lilka]

"I R LEAVING NOW" threads are not well received on ANY forum. They're attention-seeking. If someone wants to give feedback then give feedback, but the clichéd leaving post is a cybersocial no-no.

[Cindir]

I was just going to make a new thread on this. Here is what I was going to say:

Where did this thread go? I cannot find it moved to any subforums. Mods please tell us where it was moved to, unless it was just erased because it was critical of the game. Then please tell us that.

The post was polite, intelligent, with great points by a long time player. He started the post thanking Turbine: "First of all I would like to sincerely thank Turbine/LOTRO for the 5+ years of gaming experience they have provided me, and commend some of the devs ..."

Yesterday we were told threads just get moved to more appropriate forums. Is this actually true? Where did this one go? It was one of the few intelligent posts with great input I have seen in the last month or so. I wanted to go back, reread it, and hear others input.

[Cindir]

"I R LEAVING NOW" threads are not well received on ANY forum. They're attention-seeking. If someone wants to give feedback then give feedback, but the clichéd leaving post is a cybersocial no-no.

Did you read it? I guess not - it was written well (not I R anything) and see the beginning I qouted above. Nothing was cliched about that post.

So you are saying automatically any post where the player indicates he may stop playing should be deleted? Regardless of the quality of feedback in it?

[Fredelas]

I agree that it was a very thoughtful post. I was writing a reply this morning to say goodbye to a well-respected player who has been a member of the community for many years, and then it just disappeared.

I thought maybe the thread was moved to a different forum, but I honestly can't find it anywhere. (The search feature doesn't seem to be helping, either.) I just read through the Community Guidelines again to make sure, and I don't see any rules against saying goodbye.

Perhaps someone on the community team can help us find this thread.

[Nakiami]

Cache: http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=for...&w=UfvixvuIfHY

You know what I think the problem was?

(1) A 'goodbye' thread not in his server forum. And 'goodbye' mixed with 'suggestions'.
(2) This near the beginning:

It has become obvious to me that the current Dev team does not care about quality whatsoever. Numerous bugs exist in the game, they are reported, and nothing ever happens. New buggy content is just cranked out continually adding to the problem. Some of these bugs have been present ever since Beta, but they are never fixed. If your current programmers cannot fix them, why not find and hire new ones which can?

To paraphrase Sapience, this isn't feedback. This is insulting and full of false information.

I'm not saying he's totally wrong, but as usual, the presentation is not helpful.

[CheeseFan]

Try contacting customer service and explaining why you why you are leaving. The forums are not really intended for explaining why you don't play the game anymore.

While I appreciate your desire to communicate that you have had fun, but are no longer doing so, that does not really help other players get more out of the game.

Good luck in your future gaming though.
We'll try to keep Middle Earth under control.

[Yula_the_Mighty]

I read it and as I recall it broke two rules:

1) Good byes are only permitted to be posted on your server forum.

2) It included a section on bashing Turbine in not very nice language. I think he wanted some developers fired. That is not going to fly.

[Cindir]

Cache: http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=for...&w=UfvixvuIfHY
This is insulting and full of false information.

I can't agree with you.
This clearly true:

"Numerous bugs exist in the game, they are reported, and nothing ever happens. New buggy content is just cranked out continually adding to the problem. Some of these bugs have been present ever since Beta, but they are never fixed."

Right?
He is not saying bugs are never fixed; he is saying for some bugs you report them and nothing ever happens to them.
We know bugs have been here since beta. We know bugs get reported in Bullroarer and not fixed. We know new content has bugs also.

And this first sentence is his opinion - nothing against the Forums rules here:
OP said:
"It has become obvious to me that the current Dev team does not care about quality whatsoever. If your current programmers cannot fix them, why not find and hire new ones which can?"

And isn't he right - or at least can argue - that the current team cannot fix some bugs (the memory leak, for example). Many players have also said they are not happy with the quality of the content released - he is not alone.

It is easy to dismiss this, but when you read his whole post it is well written and respectful. He prefaces what you quoted by saying it is just his opinion.

[husaragi]

I read it and as I recall it broke two rules:

1) Good byes are only permitted to be posted on your server forum.

2) It included a section on bashing Turbine in not very nice language. I think he wanted some developers fired. That is not going to fly.

yep...seems like another "i bitched out turbine, but nobody can see the evidence now...so i will lie and say i was all butter and herbs in what i said...but they deleted it anyway"

[Cindir]

2) It included a section on bashing Turbine in not very nice language. I think he wanted some developers fired. That is not going to fly.

\

Go back and read his post. In no way did he say he wanted anyone fired. He only said "why not find and hire new" developers that can fix some of the bugs in the game if the current ones can't. Look at it carefully. Of course he is not saying anyone should be fired. Look at this in context of the whole post.

[husaragi]

And isn't he right - or at least can argue - that the current team cannot fix some bugs (the memory leak, for example). Many players have also said they are not happy with the quality of the content released - he is not alone.

and how much of that content and how many of those bugs do you think the devs writing the code actually get to choose? they fix what their superiors ask them to fix and they make the content they are asked to make. if there is any ire to be directed here...it should be at turbine/wb, not the devs themselves. whether hes right about the content and bugs or not...his anger is totally misdirected.

It is easy to dismiss this, but when you read his whole post it is well written and respectful. He prefaces what you quoted by saying it is just his opinion.

and yes, prefacing something with "this is just my opinion" gives you the right to belittle someone and say they suck at their job...when it is most likely not even their decision which bugs they fix.

[Cindir]

yep...seems like another "i bitched out turbine, but nobody can see the evidence now...so i will lie and say i was all butter and herbs in what i said...but they deleted it anyway"

You know you can read the exact post in post #6 here. Why not read it and then make an informed comment?

Why are you making this up? "nobody can see the evidence now...so i will lie and say i was all butter and herbs in what i said" The OP is not saying anything, let alone lying. Why jump in and make stuff up like the OP is lying. He is not even posting at all!

EDIT: I agree with what you posted second. husaragi. I am not here to debate the truth of what he said. I don't care. I think he had some interesting points to make, and a lot of other people did too. Point about how the changes undid his months of effort to improve his character.

I am just wondering why this thread was deleted without a simple post saying "I am closing this thread due to X and Y" by the mods. Personally I think he was giving valuable feedback. And, yes I think the fact it was well written and started with a big thank you to Turbine is relevant also.

But again, I don't care to debate whether all of his points are accurate or not. I have worked doing QA for a major publisher before - we all have different perspectives on software development. But his comments on the game and recent changes were interesting. And valuable feedback IMO.

[husaragi]

You know you can read the exact post in post #6 here. Why not read it and then make an informed comment?

Why are you making this up? "nobody can see the evidence now...so i will lie and say i was all butter and herbs in what i said" The OP is not saying anything, let alone lying. Why jump in and make stuff up like the OP is lying. He is not even posting at all!

ok admittedly my bad on the deleted post not being something the OP had posted. but to the point about #6...um...ok...reply #6 wasnt there when the OP posted this message....so my point would still be valid there...

[Khafar]

yep...

If the OP's thread actually called for Turbine to fire people, it's hardly a surprise that it was deleted. That's hardly "constructive", and they've watched co-workers get laid off in the last 6 months.

The typical response to "I'm leaving" threads posted outside the server forums is to Close them, not Delete them. This has been the policy since the game launched, because those threads routinely degenerate into a food fight; closing them is basically fire prevention. If it was Deleted, it must have overstepped the usual bounds in some way - re-posting a previously Closed thread, egregious violations of forum guidelines (sounds like this is out), or... calling for Turbine employees to be fired.

Khafar

[Cindir]

Kafar, you can read the post right (see post #6 for the cache of it). He wasn't saying anyone should be fired - not really. Yula just threw that in there - but I don't think it is accurate. Just look at the actual sentence.

If the OP's thread actually called for Turbine to fire people, it's hardly a surprise that it was deleted. That's hardly "constructive", and they've watched co-workers get laid off in the last 6 months.
...
Khafar

I think we have to consider that one of the forum mods just deleted it because it did not put Turbine's recent game design choices in a good light. Maybe a moderator can bring back the thread and just close it with a comment.

[Fredelas]

If the OP's thread actually called for Turbine to fire people, it's hardly a surprise that it was deleted. That's hardly "constructive", and they've watched co-workers get laid off in the last 6 months.

The typical response to "I'm leaving" threads posted outside the server forums is to Close them, not Delete them. This has been the policy since the game launched, because those threads routinely degenerate into a food fight; closing them is basically fire prevention. If it was Deleted, it must have overstepped the usual bounds in some way - re-posting a previously Closed thread, egregious violations of forum guidelines (sounds like this is out), or... calling for Turbine employees to be fired.

Khafar

On the contrary, the post encouraged Turbine to expand its team by hiring additional talented developers, especially of the sort the player remembers interacting with five years ago.

I have re-read the cached version of the missing post now, and I honestly can't determine which part of it might violate the Community Guidelines.

Perhaps it was an accidental moderation decision. Even moderators are human.

[Qwyxzl]

Numerous bugs exist in the game, they are reported, and nothing ever happens
He is not saying bugs are never fixed
And this first sentence is his opinion.

Actually that is the meaning of the words that he posted. If nothing ever happens then they cannot be fixed. If even one of them got fixed then something happened. I dont see opinion there. An opinion would be that he thinks nothing has ever happened.

It has become obvious to me that the current Dev team does not care about quality whatsoever. If your current programmers cannot fix them, why not find and hire new ones which can?

Are you sure that it has anything to do with the devs not caring? Perhaps there are forces at work that we do not see. I know that as a software developer in the game industry that my job is to make what I am asked to make. And on the subject of bugs it is possible that some bug fixes are not worth pursuing. Yes, you read that right. MMO code is exceedingly complex. And even small changes can have unforseen and potentially devastating effects. Or could involve tremendous amounts of resources for a gain that few people care about. Even beyond all of that calling for the firing of employees is highly inflammatory. That is all that would be needed to shut down a post.

Honestly I see this one going away as well as it will almost certainly devolve.

EDIT: While the other thread did not explicitly call for the firing of any one this line

If your current programmers cannot fix them, why not find and hire new ones which can?

very heavily implies the firing of devs.

On the contrary, the post encouraged Turbine to expand its team by hiring additional talented developers, especially of the sort the player remembers interacting with five years ago.

This is an incredibly rosy reading of what was said in that thread. In no way did he say to expand. He simply said to find and hire new ones. Where precisely would the money for that come from if not the removal of other devs?

[Cindir]

@Qwyxzl

I agree with you 100%. I am sure the devs do care a lot about quality of the game.

I just think sometimes people don't have the work experience, or experience in development to see this, and they mistakenly blame the devs for game problems. I think the OP made this mistake, but I still found his other feedback as a dedicated long time player to be very valuable (even if he did not understand about software development).

[Qwyxzl]

@Qwyxzl

I agree with you 100%. I am sure the devs do care a lot about quality of the game.

I just think sometimes people don't have the work experience, or experience in development to see this, and they mistakenly blame the devs for game problems. I think the OP made this mistake, but I still found his other feedback as a dedicated long time player to be very valuable (even if he did not understand about software development).

On this part we can agree completely. There are many that do not understand the inner workings of the game industry or software in general. And I try to not hold it against them too much. There are many changes that I would like to see in the way turbine does things, but I am not sure threads like that are likely to have any effect except forum flame wars.

[Khafar]

If your current programmers cannot fix them, why not find and hire new ones which can?

very heavily implies the firing of devs.

Yep, especially in an environment where they've gone through layoffs recently, the implication is clear: fire this set of incompetents, and hire someone who knows how to fix stuff. Highly unconstructive, even if most of the rest of the post was fine.

One more nit at the bottom of the deleted post... he's saying that developers should never level off "mountains" but should fill in valleys instead. This is flatly wrong, and virtually nobody with any development experience would take that advice. When you have some nails sticking up out of the wood deck at your house, what do you do to remedy the situation? Pound the nails down? Or lay more wood on the entire deck so it comes up to the level of the errant nails? This really isn't so different... changing 98% of the game so it comes up to the level of an errant 2% is a huge waste of time and resources, will cause long-term balancing issues, and introduces substantial risk that you'll screw up the 98% in one way or other. Better advice: do the targeted nerf, take your lumps, and try not to let that happen again.

Khafar

[Fredelas]

Yep, especially in an environment where they've gone through layoffs recently, the implication is clear: fire this set of incompetents, and hire someone who knows how to fix stuff. Highly unconstructive, even if most of the rest of the post was fine.

You're right; now that I re-read it from that perspective, it does sound more ominous. I think I had connected it more to the nostalgia in his first paragraph than the frustration in the immediate context.

I did enjoy the parts about character growth, though. That's what I originally wanted to comment on. It made me take a serious look about what I've been doing with my characters and which directions they can grow in the future.

[Cindir]

You're right; now that I re-read it from that perspective, it does sound more ominous. I think I had connected it more to the nostalgia in his first paragraph than the frustration in the immediate context.

I did enjoy the parts about character growth, though. That's what I originally wanted to comment on. It made me take a serious look about what I've been doing with my characters and which directions they can grow in the future.

Like many sentences in English, it could have meant several different things. he clearly did not explicitly say anyone should be fired. Whether he meant that only new people should be added or people should be replaced - well, only he knows. It could be taken both ways if you only look at the sentence. If you look at the whole post, I seriously doubt he was calling for anyone to get fired - especially when he starts by thanking Turbine. So, it is open to interpretation although he does not actually say anyone should be fired (although it may have been implied or may have not been).

This is all beside the point. It is just one sentence in a long post. I also found his feedback on character development to be unique and valuable as a player perspective.

off topic: English is not an exact language (if any language is). If I say "I am free" am I saying 1) I am not in prison, or 2) I am mentally free of something, or 3) I don't cost anything. It is kind of pointless to say he or she said this and not that. A single sentence can have multiple meanings and multiple correct interpretations, given the context or the actual intent of the speaker. The exact same words can mean different things.

EDIT- to reply to Feraxks who posts after this one: so you see no value in his feedback or input? that's ok. You can focus on his language and whether he was rude or mean in how he wrote it. Clearly he was passionate, sad, disappointed, frustrated. But the truth in some of what he was saying struck a chord. Several people really appreciated what he wrote, like the OP here in this thread. Is there only value in the thoughts/words of those who can write in a certain way, or is it better to value the ideas/words of everyone, even if they are upset, disappointed, frustrated, etc.

[Feraxks]

but when you read his whole post it is well written and respectful.

But it isn't as respectful or as well written as you think it is. He calls the devs, "clueless" several times and asserts the entire dev team is "out of touch". He then complains about his luck with the RNG and then makes/arrives at several absurd conclusions of what he thinks the dev team wants him to to do based on faulty reasoning.

He posted a goodbye thread in the wrong forum, bashed the devs several times, and then whined about not getting his fair share of phat loot -- all while wrapped in the cloak of "this is just my opinion". No wonder the post was marked for deletion by the mods. And if the OP post is going to be deleted -- there's no reason to keep the thread that was derived from it.

He was polite -- I'll give you that, but that doesn't make it right.

[Bunghelm]

Has anyone ever considered that maybe posts are getting deleted because they contain duplicates of the same information that can already be found elsewhere on the forums? It's not particularly helpful to anyone to have the same old stuff repeated constantly, and for a forum moderator to have to read the same posts over and over and over again, it must get rather tedious. You can almost forgive them for deleting posts that are 95% same old "i'm leaving" / QQ rubbish and only 5% info that is new and relevant. Seems like all you people are focussing on are those small tidbits of information, and use that to complain about the post being deleted!

I think people should post their goodbyes WITHOUT adding suggestions for game improvement. After all, if the dev's implement such improvements you won't be around to see them anyway, so it is pointless. Just saying. Unless of course you want to start an argument on your way out, sucking many other forum users into a "Turbine is the devil" kind of discussion, which of course would lead to post deletion. It's really quite simple. Good on the moderators for nipping this kind of thing in the butt early.