Massively Helm's Deep news and pictures!!!

[AaylaKheledlire]

Enjoy:
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/09...ne-helms-deep/

[Nyrion]

Thought splurge incoming:

Nice to get a look at the trait trees at last. Design looks quite snazzy to me, especially the art in the background. And as a LM player myself, Sic 'Em looks SO COOOL *squee*. Just hoping the pets actually do scaled damage.

Helm's Deep doesn't look quite how I imagined, but once I go there myself I am sure it'll feel right.

Interesting to note that two of the three roles in Big Battles do not appear to involve direct combat. Possibly something that the upscaled participants can do without the capped players throwing a fit about 'noobs'?

As far as what's coming with it, we knew most of it already, or it was to be expected. No new mounted skills is a shame though.

[bohbashum]

snippit for the people crazy about class revamps

"The class revamp is a major part of the expansion, and Turbine was happy to show us an early version of the new trait tree interface. The team had grown unhappy with two major observations regarding class development: that the early game was too unfocused and lacked choices when it came to class builds, and that the late game ended up featuring classes that were all good at more or less the same things. Hence the desire to give meaningful choices early on with an emphasis on creating memorable and focused builds. "

"any class skills will be overhauled for the expansion, with different animations, faster animations, and even some replacement skills. Here the Lore-master demonstrates the Keeper of the Animals trait capstone skill, Sic 'Em. Basically, it's a dogpile of animals on top of your enemy. We can get behind that!

Turbine said that the player council members were among the very first people to see the class trait revamps; they have provided invaluable feedback for tuning the new system. "

[thefamilyosc]

The roles system for BB concerns me to be honest, since I love traditional instances, esp long raids built around the trinity system. Not enough details for me to freak out yet. With any luck the revamps will allow for better scaling of past instances. If they scale our existing crop of 3, 6, 12 mans on launch, with relevant gear, etc, AND they're more challenging than they currently are, then I won't truly miss a traditional instance cluster. That said, they really need to have something OD like in the works for the spring update. BB may be fun and exciting for all we know at this point, but it doesn't look like they'll really need me playing uber tank atm, and tanking is kind of my lotro raison d'etre.

[bohbashum]

since I love traditional instances, esp long raids built around the trinity system.

ughhh

12 people, 2 tanks, 2 healer, 8 dps. hate it.

especially in 6mans.

we need buffers and debuffers more in this game to add depth tbh. or else we might as well reduce the group size...

[thefamilyosc]

Okay, I'll grant that my trinity comment was ill-chosen. I love instances that require cc/debuffers/etc that aren't contained within the definition of the 'trinity'. My word choice was primarily driven by my love of tanking. Give me an OD or ToO style raid and I'm a happy boy.

[bohbashum]

Okay, I'll grant that my trinity comment was ill-chosen. I love instances that require cc/debuffers/etc that aren't contained within the definition of the 'trinity'. My word choice was primarily driven by my love of tanking. Give me an OD or ToO style raid and I'm a happy boy.

oh ok. sorry then.

I suspect healers and tanks will be some of the most nurfed in this update. tanks can take so much damage lately, healers can output some silly numbers too. I suspect we'll need more "support" to keep us up. but thats pure speculation on what "our classes can do too much" was from twitter ages ago.

also, they've mentioned big battles are not a replacement for instance clusters or skirmishes. they should all reward slightly differantly and should all be viable in there own way. if you don't like BB, doesn't matter.

[TheNightAngel]

oh ok. sorry then.

I suspect healers and tanks will be some of the most nurfed in this update. tanks can take so much damage lately, healers can output some silly numbers too. I suspect we'll need more "support" to keep us up. but thats pure speculation on what "our classes can do too much" was from twitter ages ago.

also, they've mentioned big battles are not a replacement for instance clusters or skirmishes. they should all reward slightly differantly and should all be viable in there own way. if you don't like BB, doesn't matter.

Well it does matter for now because we're not getting a new instance cluster or skirmish(es). This is of course assuming that the rewards for the scaled instances aren't great because Turbine wants us to focus on the new shiny system (BB).

[bohbashum]

Well it does matter for now because we're not getting a new instance cluster or skirmish(es). This is of course assuming that the rewards for the scaled instances aren't great because Turbine wants us to focus on the new shiny system (BB).

new classes will change the difficulty in the instances. which is one of the big 2 issues atm. difficulty and the reward system. there is enough group content out there and BB is basically new instances. if your not classing that as new group content, your being too fussy imo. even a new instance would have mechanics many people might not like, so BB will do.

[TJH-LOTRO]

Oo those trees look realy nice! Can't wait to see all the new stuff, I have high hopes for this pack.

Edit: Come to think of it those trees looks like Turbines other MMO's (DDO) class enhancement trees; also with this tree system, i hope they remove the use x skill- x number of times.

[cossieuk]

I dont remember Theoden ordering siege weapons to be fired at hoards of orcs at the battle of the Hornburg

[thefamilyosc]

Highly doubt they'll remove the xskill y times aspect. They've already stated that completing class deeds, in conjunction with the 1pt every 2 levels, is how we'll get our tree pts. The change that is coming is that we won't have to earn the trait before we can get its effect, we'll have pts from other sources, the deeds won't be unlocking skills/effects, just giving us more pts to invest. Keeping the class deeds allows for a more incremental improvement of our classes as we level, complimented by the steady and immediate benefits supplied by levelling pts. Entirely possible they'll adjust the totals required for the deeds, but I don't personally see a proper way to change the deeds away from 'use Force Opening x times'.

[TJH-LOTRO]

Highly doubt they'll remove the xskill y times aspect. They've already stated that completing class deeds, in conjunction with the 1pt every 2 levels, is how we'll get our tree pts. The change that is coming is that we won't have to earn the trait before we can get its effect, we'll have pts from other sources, the deeds won't be unlocking skills/effects, just giving us more pts to invest. Keeping the class deeds allows for a more incremental improvement of our classes as we level, complimented by the steady and immediate benefits supplied by levelling pts. Entirely possible they'll adjust the totals required for the deeds, but I don't personally see a proper way to change the deeds away from 'use Force Opening x times'.

Hmm you have a good point there, I am glad to see that you will be able to get "some" of those trait points from leveling (yay for reduced grind). I must wonder how will the new/improved animations look, and how combat will feel with these changes; cause for me personally the WoW style comebat (click click click) is getting realy old.

[thefamilyosc]

I dont remember Theoden ordering siege weapons to be fired at hoards of orcs at the battle of the Hornburg

True, bit of a lore stretch, but an understandable one. Hell, given the prudence and competence displayed by Erkenbrand, it isn't even that much of a stetch. I could easily see him having a few catapults built and ready. The way I look at lore is a bit different that others, I'll grant. I'm less concerned with "this didn't happen"(or did happen, within reason), than I am with questions of character. To take PJ's work as an example, I don't care that they left out the gift giving in Loth, or even that they had Arwen takes Glorfindel's role in helping the fellowship to Rivendell. But when he had Aragorn sniffing around Eowyn and questioning his devotion etc, that defied fundamental elements of the character(Arwen could have gone to help, lord knows Luthien did, so esp not out of character).

[Thorgrum]

The class revamp tree looks horrible. Why they would trash their unique system for this is beyond me(although the little TP coin on the left makes it somewhat more clear as to intent ). Hope it works out for them, it would be a shame if its a mess. Thanks for posting the pics, more info on the class revamps is most appreciated.

[bohbashum]

Highly doubt they'll remove the xskill y times aspect. They've already stated that completing class deeds, in conjunction with the 1pt every 2 levels, is how we'll get our tree pts

all class deeds will probably give a point now. all deeds that once gave class traits too, including some quests too, moria book, and moria rep. all 3 legendary books will probably give a point each too.

that counts up to ~75 iinc. which might be too much. so I suspect they will reduce the amount of hit x skill y times by a lot, or even make meta deeds so it down down to maybe ~60 which sounds like a nice number.

looking at the pictures, can see by how he's traited on the first row on red it might take 5 points spent to unlock the next row. it might only take 31 points to get the capstone minimum. 2 points off to go offspec as we've been told. you should be getting your main line full with and maybe 3-4 rows down into another line depending on how many extra points you go into your main.

the bar at the left is most definitely set bonuses that are applied by how many points you've spent overall.

there are not that many dependencies too, like lines that direct you. so I suspect is will be relatively open, so there will be choice within what line you choose.

[thefamilyosc]

Hmm you have a good point there, I am glad to see that you will be able to get "some" of those trait points from leveling (yay for reduced grind). I must wonder how will the new/improved animations look, and how combat will feel with these changes; cause for me personally the WoW style comebat (click click click) is getting realy old.

Less concerned with how they look, more concerned with their length. The older classes in particular suffer mightily(in some cases) from skill duration bloat. Guardian in particular feels clunky at times, especially when tanking and the circumstances require you to use a skill outside of the optimal speed rotation.

If this playstyle is getting old for you, then I supremely doubt HD will bring any respite. The game is set, it doesn't have the engine or player base to survive the massive changes which would be required to switch the play style from classic mmo/rpg to a non-target battle system like Tera or ESO. Even attempting it would destroy the game engine and drive away the vast majority of the player base.

[cossieuk]

To take PJ's work as an example, I don't care that they left out the gift giving in Loth,

The gift giving is in the extended version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYzUvfAqkuc

[Nyrion]

The class revamp tree looks horrible. Why they would trash their unique system for this is beyond me(although the little TP coin on the left makes it somewhat more clear as to intent ). Hope it works out for them, it would be a shame if its a mess. Thanks for posting the pics, more info on the class revamps is most appreciated.

Sorry Thorgrum, your cynicism is flawed this time. The Devs have clearly explained why they trashed the current system(just as an aside; 'unique' does not equal 'good'). Whether you agree with it is a different matter, but they HAVE explained it. The TP symbols are equal to unlocking our current class traits slots, so there's no additional monetary benefit for them there.

[Thorgrum]

Sorry Thorgrum, your cynicism is flawed this time. The Devs have clearly explained why they trashed the current system(just as an aside; 'unique' does not equal 'good'). Whether you agree with it is a different matter, but they HAVE explained it. The TP symbols are equal to unlocking our current class traits slots, so there's no additional monetary benefit for them there.

No one said it was good, I think it is but just because I believe it to be good dosent mean others do I concede that. However (and my expirence isn't vast) in the MMO world I would say it is unique. I like that, trait tree's are un appealing to me personally. My character will feel less unique, that's a great basis for cynicism IMHO. Second and most importantly, your assertion that they have explained clearly why why trashed the system is basically in the same vein of your other quote, trashing it dosent equal a good choice. You may believe they have explained it adequately, that's your opinion I don't believe they have. Lastly, the TP symbols are on the visual that has been released. Therefore its a reasonable assumption to say that its a driver in the decision to make the change.

[bohbashum]

No one said it was good, I think it is but just because I believe it to be good dosent mean others do I concede that. However (and my expirence isn't vast) in the MMO world I would say it is unique.

the buffet system was unique... in SoA... since set bonuses it's basically been a stupid tree system with a derpy visuals. it has very cookie cutter builds that have there FTOM every expansion. the "players need choice" argument is kinda moot when I look at how I trait in the real game.

[thefamilyosc]

Lastly, the TP symbols are on the visual that has been released. Therefore its a reasonable assumption to say that its a driver in the decision to make the change.

If you actually looked at the location and orientation of the TP symbols, you'd notice that they are eerily similar to those found in the MC screen, or the LI tab for that matter. They may very well have found a way to carry over the current TP cost for f2p players associated with the current class trait slots to the new system, but that isn't in evidence on this screen. What you are seeing is the prompts to buy extra spec slots, just like the current MC tab. We all get 2 slots free atm, and the vast majority of us will find that sufficient. Most of those who feel the need for more specs will simply divest their pts from one of their saved specs and reinvest as needed. Some will indeed purchase extra slots, and more power to them and more power to turbine if they so choose. Honestly, the best case scenario is the system and upcoming game play are so good, so nuanced, *gasp* maybe even challenging, that we all feel compelled to buy more slots to accomodate all the myriad builds we come up with to confront the content. Doubt it'll get to that pt, but if it does, I'm certainly not going to fault turbine for charging me for the convenience of a few spec slots.


Turns out that the symbols in the pic were place holders, the spec slots are on the right hand side. However, my point still stands, you're wrong.

[Nyrion]

No one said it was good, I think it is but just because I believe it to be good dosent mean others do I concede that. However (and my expirence isn't vast) in the MMO world I would say it is unique. I like that, trait tree's are un appealing to me personally. My character will feel less unique, that's a great basis for cynicism IMHO. Second and most importantly, your assertion that they have explained clearly why why trashed the system is basically in the same vein of your other quote, trashing it dosent equal a good choice. You may believe they have explained it adequately, that's your opinion I don't believe they have. Lastly, the TP symbols are on the visual that has been released. Therefore its a reasonable assumption to say that its a driver in the decision to make the change.

I wouldn't ever say you are wrong for liking the current system, but that's not what my point was about. Your original post indicated you had no idea why they're doing it, as in none. The only way you could think that is if you had not read the Devs numerous explanation for it. Not thinking the explanation is good enough is not the same thing.

Finally, you were insinuating that they were changing the trait system in order to further integrate it into the Store. I pointed out that the change does not do that at all, making it a sideways move(downwards considering the resources the changes will take). At this point in time there is no more discernible profit by making the move to trait trees than they make from our current system, which makes your snark about it unfounded.

[Thorgrum]

I wouldn't ever say you are wrong for liking the current system, but that's not what my point was about. Your original post indicated you had no idea why they're doing it, as in none. The only way you could think that is if you had not read the Devs numerous explanation for it. Not thinking the explanation is good enough is not the same thing.

Finally, you were insinuating that they were changing the trait system in order to further integrate it into the Store. I pointed out that the change does not do that at all, making it a sideways move(downwards considering the resources the changes will take). At this point in time there is no more discernible profit by making the move to trait trees than they make from our current system, which makes your snark about it unfounded.

Im sure the thousands of people who clamored for this change will be present for its launch with open arms and bathing in its splendor. For the most part you and the others are doing a decent enough job of shouting down, which is a classic lotro fan base reaction. I particularly liked the "snark" commentary, at least you waited until the end to be completely dismissive. Bravo, you've killed my desire to discuss it at all. Ive teetering on apathetic for sometime anyway, really not that important. Enjoy Nyrion and remember, if someone dosent appear to post in the vein you would like, skip the ad hominem go right for the dismissal it will save you and them a lot of time.

[Thorgrum]

If you actually looked at the location and orientation of the TP symbols, you'd notice that they are eerily similar to those found in the MC screen, or the LI tab for that matter. They may very well have found a way to carry over the current TP cost for f2p players associated with the current class trait slots to the new system, but that isn't in evidence on this screen. What you are seeing is the prompts to buy extra spec slots, just like the current MC tab. We all get 2 slots free atm, and the vast majority of us will find that sufficient. Most of those who feel the need for more specs will simply divest their pts from one of their saved specs and reinvest as needed. Some will indeed purchase extra slots, and more power to them and more power to turbine if they so choose. Honestly, the best case scenario is the system and upcoming game play are so good, so nuanced, *gasp* maybe even challenging, that we all feel compelled to buy more slots to accomodate all the myriad builds we come up with to confront the content. Doubt it'll get to that pt, but if it does, I'm certainly not going to fault turbine for charging me for the convenience of a few spec slots.

*gasp* im sure the store has nothing to do with the change. A brilliant deduction on my part, wouldn't you agree?