@Frelorn's Answer for U17 PvMP Balance

[Axeny]

In his last Thursday "Fun with Frelorn" stream, where he levels a character and talks with players of the game, answering to their questions, I asked a specific question about the U17 PvMP Balance.

Q: Hey, I know you get asked this every week but when is the PvMP hotfix that is supposed to bring creeps to U17.
A: There is no PvMP hotfix. You guys will get your stuff when you get your stuff. I've been out in the ettenmoors, I've been playing, haven't been getting rolled. The people I roll with haven't been getting rolled. We've been winning fights against even numbers, maybe... I don't know what to tell you. I know they are working at some improvements but there is no hotfix for it. It is not..., nothing is so dramatically out of balance that it requires a hotfix. Updates will come when they come. That's it.

I want to leave it here with a /discuss tag, mostly because this is the only official response we have about the current PvMP situation.

The main thing I really can't seem to get is how giving one side really great new, easily acquired jewelries, insane amount of buffs through food/rating based class items, huge buff to legendary items without giving a single buff to the other side warranted. It could have worked if the creepside was overpowered before the update but I don't recall that being true.

So I guess /discuss. Are more or less every PvMP player(some exceptions of course) is mistaken about the current state or is it just the game being balanced for really unequal numbers of 2/3 creeps to 1 freep, or third option is it properly balanced and we just can't seem to get it.

Source : http://www.twitch.tv/lotrostream/v/25421962 , the answer starts a few seconds after 21m 40 seconds.

[Leopoldio]

I'd agree with Frelorn, nothing over dramatic. Not that I don't wanna see some small buff for creeps.
But there is nothing you can't handle. Only problem I face is absense of players/required classes/ranks to counter some encounters.

Only part with even numbers looks bit meh. Won't happen for creeps, unless freeps are really bad.

[Corinthians]

That's why the pvpm is so broken in this game...


Note: Probably he's playing on Meneldor, the freeps there are so bad that people do not notice the unbalance problem between the sides.

[Grego28]

Q: Hey, I know you get asked this every week but when is the PvMP hotfix that is supposed to bring creeps to U17.
A: There is no PvMP hotfix. You guys will get your stuff when you get your stuff. I've been out in the ettenmoors, I've been playing, haven't been getting rolled. The people I roll with haven't been getting rolled. We've been winning fights against even numbers, maybe... I don't know what to tell you. I know they are working at some improvements but there is no hotfix for it. It is not..., nothing is so dramatically out of balance that it requires a hotfix. Updates will come when they come. That's it.

Only one comment, after I have read the discussion :

Please Frelorn, do not insult our very common sense.

We know very well if you or any other current developer/GM play the game.

And by the phrase "play the game", I actually mean ...play the game, just like any other common player.

I do not usually die on my creep during U17 either; so what?

That does not mean that players' complaints about PvMP are senseless or unfair or without reason against the company and your team.

What is the proof about it?

The game itself as it is nowadays, plus the inconvenience of a great part of the player basis of course.

Now, to the OP :

I do not expect myself -and I do not really care about- any new update for creepside, at all.

It is more than obvious to me; current LOTRO developers seem to me like a student who does not do his/her homework, even though there is plenty of time to finish it.

I have not seen any professional stuff from the current developers' team yet.

Not to mention that they react stubbornly, even though we try to underline their mistakes.

I am sorry to tell this but that is all I get from them this last period.

For me, the developers' team must be replaced immediately; they are ineffective as a whole, even though there must be some good at their job.

Of course, I might misjudge them, but I must express my personal opinion about them and the result of their poor effort.

[007Squanto]

Nothing that merits a hot fix? Wargs popping out of stealth and freezing your client for 5-10 seconds isn't worth a hotfix?

[zolander]

The dev team should get hanged by shoes

[elderlygamer]

Q: Hey, I know you get asked this every week but when is the PvMP hotfix that is supposed to bring creeps to U17.
A: There is no PvMP hotfix. You guys will get your stuff when you get your stuff. I've been out in the ettenmoors, I've been playing, haven't been getting rolled. The people I roll with haven't been getting rolled. We've been winning fights against even numbers, maybe... I

It would have been nice if he'd answered the question in the context of what happens when he leaves the safety of the one-shots.

[grenifk]

Nothing that merits a hot fix? Wargs popping out of stealth and freezing your client for 5-10 seconds isn't worth a hotfix?

Inform yourself before posting BS, all stealth classes will freeze target after first encounter. Let me repeat: ALL stealthed classes not just wargs!

[Xiblar]

Q: Hey, I know you get asked this every week but when is the PvMP hotfix that is supposed to bring creeps to U17.
A: There is no PvMP hotfix. You guys will get your stuff when you get your stuff. I've been out in the ettenmoors, I've been playing, haven't been getting rolled. The people I roll with haven't been getting rolled. We've been winning fights against even numbers, maybe... I don't know what to tell you. I know they are working at some improvements but there is no hotfix for it. It is not..., nothing is so dramatically out of balance that it requires a hotfix. Updates will come when they come. That's it.

Well, this statement just show what many of us supposed. People of Turbine have absolutely no clue of what they are doing. If they don't see that there are major problems out there in the moors, then they either play as freep and like the easymode they created or they only fight agains terrible (skilled or equiped or maybe both) freeps on their creeps.
But they just need to compare the numbers of morale/healing/damage and they would see that there is something out of the row.

[Dupre90]

Most of the complaining comes for solo players.

Gms dont play solo , they group. This game is terribly unbalanced when it comes to duels.

People go Rambo style ,in groups Red traited mins, terrible organization, not following RAT etc..

Freeps have the upper hand but that doesnt mean they'll demolish creeps every single time.

Bring more numbers and learn to play in group, ignore solo, nearly any freep class with right build , OP legacies and gear will destroy high rank creep or that creep wont be able to kill him/her.

Which Bas must know when to use Vital target, Spiders CC and debuffs not only spam 1 dot, Warg power drain, good WL that will heal and use bubble etc

[007Squanto]

Inform yourself before posting BS, all stealth classes will freeze target after first encounter. Let me repeat: ALL stealthed classes not just wargs!

Nothing about my post was BS. I never said it was exclusively wargs, that's simply all I've encountered. I've never lagged from burgs. Read things before you post, you embarrass yourself.

[Tirn]

if you see how he behaves and how he sounds im afraid to say we are all doomed if he is at the helm . This ship hit the rocks big time .

[Frelorn]

The statement stands. There is no need for a PvMP hotfix. A hotfix is put out when there is something game breaking or an issue that is causing players not to be able to access content. That does not mean in the regular updates that the team is not looking into changes fixes, and improvements. I would also like to point out again as we have stated many, many times before that PvMP is designed for group fights, not duels. It has been this way since it was implemented.

[Annaliel]

The statement stands. There is no need for a PvMP hotfix. A hotfix is put out when there is something game breaking or an issue that is causing players not to be able to access content. That does not mean in the regular updates that the team is not looking into changes fixes, and improvements. I would also like to point out again as we have stated many, many times before that PvMP is designed for group fights, not duels. It has been this way since it was implemented.

Stop pretending pvp isn't unbalanced and just tell what you really want to say. What you really mean is that all of Turbine doesn't care at all for pvp and only caters to casuals players, just say it and don't use pathetic excuses.

[Thurallor]

Stop pretending pvp isn't unbalanced and just tell what you really want to say. What you really mean is that all of Turbine doesn't care at all for pvp and only caters to casuals players, just say it and don't use pathetic excuses.

Then why did they expend so much effort making the new PvMP zone?

[Annaliel]

Then why did they expend so much effort making the new PvMP zone?

So much effort that it was done poorly and no one ever goes there anymore. No idea why they did it anyway, maybe they wanted to pretend to care about pvp and it was easier/cheaper than working on any kind of class balance.

[Thaelon]

The statement stands. There is no need for a PvMP hotfix. A hotfix is put out when there is something game breaking or an issue that is causing players not to be able to access content. That does not mean in the regular updates that the team is not looking into changes fixes, and improvements. I would also like to point out again as we have stated many, many times before that PvMP is designed for group fights, not duels. It has been this way since it was implemented.

I'm not trying to be offensive, but have you played against good freeps in a group setting? I mean, 6v6, there is no competition, freeps dominate it. Maybe at 12v12 level it might be closer as the creeps would be more likely to kill healers through sheer numbers on 1 target, though I doubt it.

One of the main problems comes from freep morale pools, you can leave damage and healing (except put a 1s cd on bolster) as it is as long as freep morale pools sit at around 20-30k maximum. Make essence gear unusable in pvmp zones, rework it (for a later patch) so that essence gear becomes usable again but not with the typical essences like what are available in pve, provide essences that augment abilities for each class, have the essence gear unlock slots as you rank up, with each rank also unlocking class essences to slot. You could do this somewhat on creep, give them this system but as legendary traits (or something of the like), giving them the choice of which role they want to specialize in (an easy way to give creeps trait trees w/o doing all the work), for example if you are playing defiler you might have the choice at r15 of two trait options, one would make your damaging abilities and debuffs have 0s cd, while the other would give you a new skill that would allow you to make your next healing skill auto crit and aoe (only in your fellowship) with a 30s-1m cd.

Basically there is currently a very real problem with pvmp balance, essences. They allow too much difference in builds to create balance, you might fight a warden with 20k morale on your warg, kill him in the stun and think that everything is fine, or you could fight a fire rk with 50k morale who is literally unkillable because of a skill that has no counter or skillful play involved at all.

If you control essences, you control pvmp balance.

[Frelorn]

We do know that there are still balance adjustments to made. My point was that balance does not fall under the guidelines of a hotfix.

[Xiblar]

I would also like to point out again as we have stated many, many times before that PvMP is designed for group fights, not duels.

Ok, group fight would mean it is also designed for 6vs6, cause that's the normal groupsize in lotro. I can assure you that no 6 man creep group is able to kill a 6 man freep group which has good equip and skill. Or tell me, how you want to take down a 55k(which is quite low nowadays with cappy) morale mini/healing rk with cappy and lm support? And don't tell me anything about cc, you simply cannot cc that much in a group of 6 man without losing the damage you would need.

You did a great job and destroyed the hope you spread out to some people with the new instances and osgiliath pvmp map with your incredible ingnorance relating to the huge balancing issues you have in both, pve and pvp.

[Assasiny]

The statement stands. There is no need for a PvMP hotfix. A hotfix is put out when there is something game breaking or an issue that is causing players not to be able to access content. That does not mean in the regular updates that the team is not looking into changes fixes, and improvements. I would also like to point out again as we have stated many, many times before that PvMP is designed for group fights, not duels. It has been this way since it was implemented.

Hi frelorn,

Do you think this is normal that some freeps classes can oneshot creeps ?
How can a 60 k moral mini die againts 3-5 creeps dps, especially when he has a blue rk or a blue cappy / bear in the group, assuming you roll a creeps 6 man and you have at least one healer in the group ?

I would like to see a video of your creeps vs freeps fight, wining at equal numbers ! I assume yall know well the classes ofc


I do not ask a hotfix or anything, I would like that devs think about an update for creeps, when freeps have one. It will avoid a "ez mod rank farm time " for freeps.

Take care !

[Thaelon]

We do know that there are still balance adjustments to made. My point was that balance does not fall under the guidelines of a hotfix.

Hopefully they get made (swiftly). I agree.

To the people on this thread who have or are planning to post rage on here, why would you be so stupid? Frelorn is actually communicating with you on this thread on a topic you feel strongly about, and your first reaction is to make him want to #### the thread and leave. Great logic. You may not agree with how Turbine have gone about pvmp balance, or with what was said by Frelorn, but why take that personally and ruin any chance of meaningful discussion about the topic?

[zolander]

Eh really? 1v1s aka duels are way more balanced then 6v6 fights or whatever.

[Xiblar]

We do know that there are still balance adjustments to made. My point was that balance does not fall under the guidelines of a hotfix.

But why it takes so long each time? I know lotro is pve/story oriantated but why there are no small adjustements to creep side when freeps gets buffs due to pve progress? When creeps had the upperhand a fix was there within a short time but if its the other way and freeps are way more powerful like we have it now, nothing happens for a long time.

[Hejazia]

Inform yourself before posting BS, all stealth classes will freeze target after first encounter. Let me repeat: ALL stealthed classes not just wargs!

Personally, I have not been playing my creep as often as my freep but the "warg freeze" is slightly more dramatic than the other stealthed class's freeze. I have not yet experienced a freeze of the same magnitude from burglars. When a warg renders on my screen (map-in, pounce, unstealthed, or even just the AFK corpse), I freeze for about 3-4 seconds. For burglars, it's barely noticeable (at least for me, may be different for other people).

Either way, this doesn't take away from the fact that this requires a fix. What Squanto007 said isn't necessarily wrong, it just did not include the minor details that you had in mind.

[zolander]

Hopefully they get made (swiftly). I agree.

To the people on this thread who have or are planning to post rage on here, why would you be so stupid? Frelorn is actually communicating with you on this thread on a topic you feel strongly about, and your first reaction is to make him want to #### the thread and leave. Great logic. You may not agree with how Turbine have gone about pvmp balance, or with what was said by Frelorn, but why take that personally and ruin any chance of meaningful discussion about the topic?