Stream confirmed ssg not revealing drop rate or percent chance of items in loot boxes? True or not?

[Andy_X]

I was told by people in game that Cordovan replied that ssg will not publish drop rate or percent of chance for items in loot boxes on the stream. Is this true? I don't want to watch whole stream and tried jumping forward but can't find it? Can anyone point me to that part? Like a time stamp.

If true that makes me question what ssg have to hide? How we even know what's in them? If the chance to get an item is 1%. If certain items are even in them? We are let to ssg whim on setting any low percent they want and we pay and don't even know what chance to get anything. Even lotteries publish such info. And people wonder why government regulations are needed? I don't want the government messing in most things but when shady business practices forces it I see no other choices. Obviously we can not trust these publishers to regulate themselves or even be transparent and publish info we all deserve to know before we pay for something.

If this info (I was provided by people in game) is not true then ignore this and please correct the info and tell me Cordovan did not say this.

[WorrBinpike]

Is there a company anyway that reveals those game interna ? i think not.

[Andy_X]

Is there a company anyway that reveals those game interna ? i think not.

Yes all lotteries must by law. As I stated above. Also blizzard/overwatch had to. Forced by Chinese government actually.

[Yula_the_Mighty]

Yes all lotteries must by law. As I stated above. Also blizzard/overwatch had to. Forced by Chinese government actually.

There is a Chinese law that went into May 1, 2017 that Overwatch - Blizzard, League of Legends - Riot and Perfect World - Dota 2 complied with. I do not expect a small game company like SSG with comply. Given the extremely small revenue generated world wide by Lotro I doubt the Chinese government will bother SSG. SSG does not offer their games in Chinese. SSG does not have a physical or financial presence in China. SSG does not have a Chinese domain web site.

It is only going to be Chinese publishers like Dota 2 - Perfect World (500 million dollars in revenue). Or foreign publishers such as Blizzard and Riot who generate more than a billion dollars a year in revenue with Overwatch and League of Legends that bothers. They are big enough to be noticed by the Chinese government.

If these games were still part of Time Warner., that would make it more interesting. Would the Chinese government throw a fit over a little game like Lotro that is a immaterial financial source revenue for Warner Brothers - Time Warner?

Have any medium sized or small online games provided this information in China in Chinese?

[Altair6]

I was told by people in game that Cordovan replied that ssg will not publish drop rate or percent of chance for items in loot boxes on the stream.

If you want to check have a look at around 36 minutes in. Question seems to be asked at 35.38 Sounds like a no to me.

[Maximilan]

I doubt SSG will ever make this info public and there is really no good reason from their standpoint to do so.


With the drop rate of keys/boxes. I would guesstimate the odds are a whole lot better than Powerball, but probably no better than your State scratch off cards - like the $10 or $20 ones. With a scratch off card you can win often and still not cover your investment. Same as keys - if you knew what the reward was you may not have bothered with the time or LP to acquire one.

/shrug

[Cordovan]

It's not so much a loot box thing as it is a loot thing: We've never really given exact drop rates for items that have a chance to appear, regardless of their source.

[Maximilan]

It's not so much a loot box thing as it is a loot thing: We've never really given exact drop rates for items that have a chance to appear, regardless of their source.

Yes that is understood, at least by me. However there is the 'pull' (think slot machine) and there is the reward. The pull being analogous to a key, the reward is always highly variable with items that are considered next to worthless and those which are relished.

If the key/lootbox ratio was higher that would give more chances - not rewards directly.
(I'm talking about all keys, not just the Mordor black ones)

[zipfile]

It's not so much a loot box thing as it is a loot thing: We've never really given exact drop rates for items that have a chance to appear, regardless of their source.

Why not?

[Dmunney]

It's not so much a loot box thing as it is a loot thing: We've never really given exact drop rates for items that have a chance to appear, regardless of their source.

Well you NEVER really had best in slot armor in loot boxes before mordor either so why not give the % now? Clearly you are ok with changing OTHER policies after/with mordor so yea why not tell us the %??

[Happybudgy]

That drop rates for this game were never revealed doesn't matter. That was then. Today we have lootboxes opened with mainly store bought keys
that don't require game play (as in raids) and that can give BiS items. These new mechanics lead players to ask new questions.

In China there is now a law for this:
http://www.pcgamer.com/blizzard-reve...ates-in-china/




In Canada, one of the major coffee chains has contests throughout the year where you buy a cup of coffee and the rim of the coffee cup can be rolled up to reveal
whether one has won a prize (or most likely: not). The company released the odds of winning earlier this year:

https://insidetimmies.com/2017/02/01...s-and-figures/

[Amennator]

Is there a company anyway that reveals those game interna ? i think not.

Warframe does. On their wiki you can look up the drop rate of practically everything.

[Macdui]

It's not so much a loot box thing as it is a loot thing: We've never really given exact drop rates for items that have a chance to appear, regardless of their source.

Generally we engage in hopefully fun group content, overcome whatever difficulties on the way to open a chest or two at the end and hope for a commensurate reward. Yes the RNG can be harsh but we can be glad of a fellow that does get a nice drop even if we don't. Others might not be so interested in the gear and maybe partake in the festival to gain new cosmetics or a new mount, perhaps a quest line that rewards a new barter pet and it's our choice as to what we go for as items are largely on show on a barter npc.

But with lootboxes they are just a black box and we don't know what might be in one. We could be opening them thinking something we want might drop but it could just not be in the loot list. Imaging if the new raid's last chest had a pick a mount, a cave-claw pet, Thurlach's blade and a lump of coal amongst the loot table. No one would raid if those rewards were dropping. And this is what you have with the Gorgoroth Lootbox, too many different items that cater for every play style but not one in particular.

Normally we'd go to the Lotro Wiki for some info but it seems they are not so interested in the lootbox lottery as the details are completely lacking, this alone must tell you something. It's all down to the players idea of value; why spend cash on such a random reward that can have such a wide variation of "value" to an individual. The loot table of the Gorgoroth lootbox has changed with every update, we don't know what's added nor what's been removed each time. We don't know if the odds of one particular item goes up or down. We are to gamble on an outcome, yes everywhere there's the RNG that effects our game but we usually know our odds of a critical craft, whether we land a devastating hit and yes not so much on looting a chest, but with chests we are used to a ball park of drops we can receive.

As it stands we might have someone dynamically changing the table and drop rates on a whim each day. Are you asking us to trust you? With the litany of mistakes in the Mordor and subsequent patches you aren't in a position for us to trust you right now.


Verizal did a comprehensive loot list for Update 12.1
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-Instance-Loot

We still refer to this when doing scaled instances.

Cordovan, you mentioned doing a comprehensive loot list for DDO some months back. Do we Lotro players not deserve the same?

Why alienate one group when you can alienate all groups, eh?

SSG are the soul arbiter of the rules. You can change anything on a whim, like forgetting that we could get new expansions with earned LP. You can change the community guidelines to drop the notion you had to engage with us on the forums and listen to our feedback. You can also rethink your lootbox design too if you don't want to alienate more of us.

Today the loot table of the lootbox changes yet again, what's been removed that I may still want? What's been added that has little "value" to me?

Where is the reason to open a lootbox other than with what keys I might have already?


Mac

[TearMaker]

Personally I think the gaming companies are flying by the seat of their pants.
They are going to milk this until it inevitably gets regulated.

UK gambling law is quite archaic and has historically sided with the bookmakers whom have a fairly
strong lobby. They skirt the fact that this isn't a lottery, maybe.

What is a lottery as defined in uk law?

2.1 An arrangement is a simple lottery if:
• persons are required to pay to participate in the arrangement;
• the prizes are allocated by a process which relies wholly on chance.

Seems simple but lootboxes are not purchased and the keys can be purchased in AH and don't need
to be purchased by real money.

11.7 Every ticket in the lottery must be the same price

Well that isn't true because there is different price structures depending on how you purchased your
Lotro points and whether they were free allocation as part of deeds or subs.

16.1 Lotteries are a form of gambling and as such societies and local authorities are required
to ensure that children and other vulnerable people are not exploited by their lottery.

This concerns me because whether you believe it is a lottery or not, there has to be a social responsibility with regards
to vulnerable adults and children. I see no warnings or odds posted and why? Because that would be admitting what this
is.... gambling. SSG seriously has no morals when it comes to exploiting people otherwise they would publish a policy which
clearly states the pit falls of this and the odds of getting what you are looking for.

The Law will catch up and when this garbage is removed most folks will forget that SSG are flying on the coat tails
of EA and other big companies to exploit unashamedly until they are force to stop.
Its okay to say well my favourite person at ssg only does art or story or community etc but they are all culpable of being a party
to what they must know is wrong. History is full of brave folks who take a stand for what is right and also sycophants who will toe
the company line because it is easier.

[Montezuma's]

It's not so much a loot box thing as it is a loot thing: We've never really given exact drop rates for items that have a chance to appear, regardless of their source.

Yes that is understood, at least by me.

Not by me.
I don't see any reason to make it secret. Except for one: developers reserve the right to silently manipulate and change loot tables on server. Which I call is not fair and is cheating, I mean silent side.

[Maximilan]

What is a lottery as defined in uk law?

2.1 An arrangement is a simple lottery if:
• persons are required to pay to participate in the arrangement;
• the prizes are allocated by a process which relies wholly on chance.


11.7 Every ticket in the lottery must be the same price


16.1 Lotteries are a form of gambling and as such societies and local authorities are required
to ensure that children and other vulnerable people are not exploited by their lottery.

I'm not British and US regulations are mainly state driven, IMO US laws are generally weaker on gambling than the UK. The UK and EU may take on lootboxes in the gaming industry but I doubt the US ever does. I do think lootboxes are gambling because they involve a speculative reward that may be the result of a purchase (key). However, since all keys do not have to be purchased, SSG has an excellent legal defence. Note that SSG went out of their way to provide 'instances' where these keys could be earned on a regular basis, even though lootboxes drop like rain on the landscape but the keys do not. That is my beef - the chance of a reward is gated behind the chance of a rare key drop, or you fork over the $/LP etc.

I can dislike the current lootbox situation as much as anybody, but I don't see how the government has the regulations to stop it. My opinion on the regulations cited above:

2.1 This would not apply since keys can be 'earned' in game and no one is required to purchase anything if they have a key and lootbox.

11.7 The odds and prices are the same for everyone regardless of how a key or box is obtained.

16.1 This is the catch all regulation so that bureaucrats (government officials) can deem something a form of gambling due to it's mechanics and market (subjective reasoning)

[Rialtan]

Maybe that limited amount of free keys x day could be considered like an incentive for ppl to buy them with real $$$.


Like some online poker websites do with a initial $$$ bonus to force you playing more.

Tbh i dunno, i refused to use the lootboxes mechanic at all, free or not.

[Witch0King]

Not by me.
I don't see any reason to make it secret. Except for one: developers reserve the right to silently manipulate and change loot tables on server. Which I call is not fair and is cheating, I mean silent side.

It is so they can regulate the numbers without people losing it every single time. Like when they would buff lootbox drop rates for weekends and so. Why anyone would need to know the drop rate is beyond me, you either get it or you don't. I spent hours killing slugs hoping to get the new creep skins when they released. It wouldn't have made a difference if I knew the odds or not. And yes, they dropped for me. Example: This item has a 25% to drop and you still don't get it on the 8th or 10th try, whatcha gonna do? "but it says its 25% ermagawd"

[Lord.Funk]

2.1 This would not apply since keys can be 'earned' in game and no one is required to purchase anything if they have a key and lootbox.

That argument has been replied to in numerous posts in this forum as well as in other game forums, reddit, youtube comments etc.

Just because a casino gives a free spin to each customer or hand out a few free tokens You can gamble with, doesn't free them from operating under a gambling license and regulations. As long as You can gamble using real money (be it buy chips/token for money to then gamble with) it is still gambling. An important aspect of regulations is unannounced outside controls. To ensure customers are not being hustled, that the system isn't rigged. With virtula gambling there are so many ways codes can be written. It can be that You play a certain class, then as You use that class to open a lootbox the chance that class speceific itesm drops are lowered. It can be coded that if alreday x ampount on a server has gotten reward x in a certian amount of time that items drop chance goes down to almost 0 for a certian amount of time etc.

NO, I'm not saying SSG is doing that but that is why outside controls are needed. To make sure no company does such thing. Bungie (destiny 2) was just recently caught using code that displayed that You earned X amount of XP (that rewards in-game currency that unlocks items) but in reality the % was lower and lowered the more You played. Gamers themselves had to make spreedsheets and test over time to finally publish it and then Bungie had to reply and apologize and remove that system. However in the samew stropke they also doubled the amount of XP required to progress. Those are things some corporations can and obvioulsy have pulled when not regulated or submitted to controls.

No matter what any company publish, unless unbiased outside controls/inspections are made, such publications are not worth much. Just look at the food industry and all things they've pulled over the decades until inspected and found out.

[Tel'aran'rhiod]

I'm not British and US regulations are mainly state driven, IMO US laws are generally weaker on gambling than the UK. The UK and EU may take on lootboxes in the gaming industry but I doubt the US ever does. I do think lootboxes are gambling because they involve a speculative reward that may be the result of a purchase (key). However, since all keys do not have to be purchased, SSG has an excellent legal defence. Note that SSG went out of their way to provide 'instances' where these keys could be earned on a regular basis, even though lootboxes drop like rain on the landscape but the keys do not. That is my beef - the chance of a reward is gated behind the chance of a rare key drop, or you fork over the $/LP etc.

I can dislike the current lootbox situation as much as anybody, but I don't see how the government has the regulations to stop it. My opinion on the regulations cited above:

2.1 This would not apply since keys can be 'earned' in game and no one is required to purchase anything if they have a key and lootbox.

11.7 The odds and prices are the same for everyone regardless of how a key or box is obtained.

16.1 This is the catch all regulation so that bureaucrats (government officials) can deem something a form of gambling due to it's mechanics and market (subjective reasoning)

Yup, I'm in the US too, and while there is hardly anything out there on virtual items, it seems the things that are have mostly to do with 1) online games incorporating casino-like mini games and 2) the game itself didn't allow "cashing out" of the prize, but relied on a secondary site to do so and 3) even in these cases it was not found to be gambling, in part based on the conclusion that under these facts, the players were not winning a prize having value. The courts noted that it was a significant fact that the game operators did not provide and/or participate in the secondary markets and precluded such activity via their terms of use.

So in short, in US states, there not a strong reason to think this is headed anywhere in the near-term. A year from now, lootboxes are probably available exactly as they are today. Two years from now....likely the same. Now, if those lootboxes had something of REAL value as deemed by the court, things could get interesting. Drop bitcoin out of the box...now we're talking. Gear in a game isn't going to get it done in the US, imo.

[LethalLethality]

Normally we'd go to the Lotro Wiki for some info but it seems they are not so interested in the lootbox lottery as the details are completely lacking, this alone must tell you something.

In all honesty, the wiki hasn't seen much love since mordor came out in general. a bunch of unfinished pages or non-existent ones. Rather telling, actually, that the few people who were fans enough to do the wiki have either left or don't care enough anymore to fill it out. I stopped adding to the wiki around the time of East Gondor, myself.

[Rhuark_Redshield]

[QUOTE=Maximilan;7797499]

2.1 This would not apply since keys can be 'earned' in game and no one is required to purchase anything if they have a key and lootbox.
QUOTE]

You do have to actually purchase mordor before you can "earn" the daily key. Also, you have to run almost all of the quite tedious content (on third character and I haven't logged on in 2 weeks) and complete black book to unlock that key on each character. So anyone that chooses to bypass purchasing mordor ends up having to buy keys from the store now that they will be bound to account.

[Tel'aran'rhiod]

[QUOTE=Rhuark_Redshield;7797527]

2.1 This would not apply since keys can be 'earned' in game and no one is required to purchase anything if they have a key and lootbox.
QUOTE]

You do have to actually purchase mordor before you can "earn" the daily key. Also, you have to run almost all of the quite tedious content (on third character and I haven't logged on in 2 weeks) and complete black book to unlock that key on each character. So anyone that chooses to bypass purchasing mordor ends up having to buy keys from the store now that they will be bound to account.

Not with money. One could have farmed enough LP to buy Mordor without $. Same with keys - could have either been earned in game or with LP for free that they then "exchanged" in the store for keys.

I'm not saying I agree with the system, or like it, or that it wouldn't be a pain in the rear to do all this without paying at all (completely free to play), but really the things in the LOTRO lootboxes aren't likely to be perceived by courts (at least in the US) as even having true monetary value. So we can all complain about the system, but that's not the same as it being illegal.

[MAWorking]

Yes all lotteries must by law. As I stated above. Also blizzard/overwatch had to. Forced by Chinese government actually.

And this is why we can't have nice things....

[Sphenforthewin]

It's not so much a loot box thing as it is a loot thing: We've never really given exact drop rates for items that have a chance to appear, regardless of their source.

I can respect that. Which just makes me think the suggestion from my signature will be the best of both worlds, as without loot boxes you would never be at odds with any such regulations or requests.