Stop Criticising the Devs

[Digaloo]

Why do I always see these stupid posts entitled things like : "What the Devs did wrong" and "More mistakes by the Devs" or "The Devs don't care" etc.

IT'S NOT THE DEVS TO BLAME!

I have never worked for SS but I have worked for a number of other software development companies as a developer for many years and they are all the same in one aspect and there is no reason to believe that SS are any different.

Invariably if there are problems/bugs in a release or the software is not exactly how you want it, it is the MANAGERS who are to blame.

It is the managers who often force the developers to release something when they are often warned by the developers that it is not ready. Devs are usually overridden when the managers "pull rank" and make them release it. Managers often do this either for financial reasons or for personal kudos reasons i.e. to bolster their own career.

I would say that if it was up to the Devs, then you would hardly get any releases at all as Devs tend to tinker with code forever in order to try and make it more and more perfect.

Leave the Devs alone. If you have to criticise anyone then criticise the managers.

I repeat I have no connection with SS. I am just a software developer in another part of the world who feels aggrieved for my brother developers!

[LabadalofDorlomin]

What complete poppycock!

Players will articulate to whom they feel they connect with. If you as a "developer" cannot see that then that is more to do with where your mindset is.

Unless players are calling out personal names and slandering individuals then there is no issue here.


I'm guessing what this is about is someone letting everyone know they work for a software company.... AGAIN! Fairly sure without being bothered to check, that you have told us all about your credentials before? Apologies if I'm incorrect

[siipperi]

What about when theres fatal bug in the code several weeks since beta and never fixed? Do we blame Sev/etc of that?

[BotLike]

I'm guessing what this is about is someone letting everyone know they work for a software company.... AGAIN!

That sums it up perfectly ^^

[Altair6]

What about when theres fatal bug in the code several weeks since beta and never fixed? Do we blame Sev/etc of that?

Yes, I have to say I've never had a manager who's told me, "Don't do that. Do this.". Sheesh!

[Narthalion]

Why do I always see these stupid posts entitled things like : "What the Devs did wrong" and "More mistakes by the Devs" or "The Devs don't care" etc.

IT'S NOT THE DEVS TO BLAME!

I have never worked for SS but I have worked for a number of other software development companies as a developer for many years and they are all the same in one aspect and there is no reason to believe that SS are any different.

Invariably if there are problems/bugs in a release or the software is not exactly how you want it, it is the MANAGERS who are to blame.

It is the managers who often force the developers to release something when they are often warned by the developers that it is not ready. Devs are usually overridden when the managers "pull rank" and make them release it. Managers often do this either for financial reasons or for personal kudos reasons i.e. to bolster their own career.

I would say that if it was up to the Devs, then you would hardly get any releases at all as Devs tend to tinker with code forever in order to try and make it more and more perfect.

Leave the Devs alone. If you have to criticise anyone then criticise the managers.

I repeat I have no connection with SS. I am just a software developer in another part of the world who feels aggrieved for my brother developers!

(voice of SSG Dev) "Mom...please stop posting here."

[paintpixie]

(voice of SSG Dev) "Mom...please stop posting here."

X'D

[paintpixie]

Why do I always see these stupid posts entitled things like : "What the Devs did wrong" and "More mistakes by the Devs" or "The Devs don't care" etc.

Because people want the developers to look at their forum thread, notice the problem they have, and fix it.

[Macdui]

I'd be happy to see SSG's developer hierarchy and know who "owns" which ever piece of the game has failed.

I've been so critical of past EPs that I've earned infractions.

Main problem is the line managers are coders/devs/engineers/artists, even the Executive Director is a coder. There is no "manager" who hasn't got a finger in the pie somewhere.

It's the grey suit that comes in and asks how it's going and every time SSG say great, when as players often it's just not, that has the say.



But SSG and Turbine before them get away with failed implementations because most their customers are not united in their opinions. If we could assign a day where not one of us played, they might listen. They don't budget for long re-writes when it goes pear shaped. Most are too scared/ignorant to engage with us on the forums. They created a game environment that harbours gold spammer and fails daily to prevent the spam. On a f2p account our spam harassment reports don't even get through to SSG. It's only gaming software companies who get away with this $%£. My experience comes from a software company that cleared every bug before any new content release. We kept our customers.

Mac

[LabadalofDorlomin]

If we could assign a day where not one of us played, they might listen.

The days of hearing "all out" alongside the sirens ringing through the corridors and workrooms of factories is sadly long gone. Solidarity brother Macdui is a long gone fashion from 30 years ago.

Very rarely now do you get folks working together in a capitalist society because whatever level you find yourself, you have it burned into you that a) someone has to have an angle and is surely trying to con you and b) you have it ingrained in you to try and gain an advantage else be left behind.

Most people in this world are sheep.... they follow because that is the instinct drilled into them. That being said - sheep rarely jump off cliffs.

Trying to incite a mini revolution will just get you a few more infractions. Better to ignore the OP and keep plugging away at the CM or Devs who in turn can try and affect the decision makers in the game.

[Joetzim]

DBG's calling the shots. Devs implement. You eat what you're fed. You can protest in words, but it won't matter. You can also play another game, LOTRO-obsessed people have absolutely positively no idea what they miss out on.

[Nymphonic]

You can also play another game, LOTRO-obsessed people have absolutely positively no idea what they miss out on.

This I really cannot agree on. I dabble in other MMOs when I get tired of this one, and I research a lot, so I have a pretty good idea what's out there. Yeah, there are MMOs out there with smoother gameplay, but as for as lore and world building goes, the only one I can think of that compares with this is maybe Final Fantasy IV. But even then, it's not Middle Earth.

[zipfile]

You're probably right. It was the managers that dulled down the tanking mechanics, beaten Red/Yellow Guardian lines into dust, brought same, repeating quests in a buggy/laggy "newish" landscape.

[Macdui]

You're probably right. It was the managers that dulled down the tanking mechanics, beaten Red/Yellow Guardian lines into dust, brought same, repeating quests in a buggy/laggy "newish" landscape.

I just imagine every "idea" is applauded with little regard to merit. Talk of failures is banned to keep the morale/hype going. Donuts and Bagels anyone?

Mac

[Joetzim]

This I really cannot agree on. I dabble in other MMOs when I get tired of this one, and I research a lot, so I have a pretty good idea what's out there. Yeah, there are MMOs out there with smoother gameplay, but as for as lore and world building goes, the only one I can think of that compares with this is maybe Final Fantasy IV. But even then, it's not Middle Earth.

I'm just saying that, when you're tired of one game or you don't agree with what the devs are doing, you can always take a break and enjoy something else. I can recommend ESO and SWTOR. They are both pretty immersive. Storytelling and quest design is just downright better than LOTRO. In terms of graphics and world-building in general, that's a tricky question. LOTRO has some amazing areas, especially Rohan, that are more beautiful than ESO can ever get, but later stuff like Morrowind is pretty nice and detailed. In terms of voice-acting, it's the reason I left LOTRO and I can't get myself to come back. It's aweful! But every game has something that makes it worth playing when you're in the mood. Sometimes, I just feel like "killing ####" so I log into BDO for that.

Imo, it is a mistake to just stick to LOTRO because it's M-e (and that beats everything). And so many people claim to do that. There is so much stuff out, you can't afford to live in your little pond. I know I can't.

And the entire purpose of my post was to say, you don't agree with the direction the game is taking, the only way to protest meaningfully is by playing something else. This is the second reason I don't play LOTRO. I refuse to put up with lazy quest design that makes you run miles between the same NPCs multiple times.

[OldMadeOfLions]

I just imagine every "idea" is applauded with little regard to merit.

You imagine incorrectly.

Last year I had the idea for an addition to the Fall Festival involving Bingo and his assorted cousins, and despite having a fairly good track record with content design I still had to defend it to Severlin and the team before I could implement it. No free passes!

I can't agree with the thread title though -- I think it's healthy to be critical of the game. Nothing wrong with that, if you're fair about it and follow the guidelines.

MoL

[Narthalion]

... and despite having a fairly good track record with content design...

*cough* Understatement! *cough*

[Mar-Evayave]

You imagine incorrectly.

Last year I had the idea for an addition to the Fall Festival involving Bingo and his assorted cousins, and despite having a fairly good track record with content design I still had to defend it to Severlin and the team before I could implement it. No free passes!

I can't agree with the thread title though -- I think it's healthy to be critical of the game. Nothing wrong with that, if you're fair about it and follow the guidelines.

MoL

Critical of the game, sure, but fairness seems sparse at times. Saying things like "the devs are ignoring us, the devs don't care, etc" is about as healthy as it is accurate. I'd say that what is fair, is that you are likely the most well respected dev on the team and you have earned it. Saying that the devs ignore or don't care basically just throws mud all over you.

At my job I am the one person who handles commission inquiries. Most people don't realize that I also carry my full weight in general accounts payable duties, which my boss frequently has to put in front of commissions. Sometimes management is at fault -- whether they are right or wrong in their decisions. Playing the blame game is just counterproductive.

[Nymphonic]

I'm just saying that, when you're tired of one game or you don't agree with what the devs are doing, you can always take a break and enjoy something else. I can recommend ESO and SWTOR..

This I agree with wholeheartedly. A good example was me not liking Mordor and calling it quits for a couple of months and playing WoW. I haven't tried ESO, you have me interested. I like Star Trek Online(I bought the TOS pack a few years ago), but it's just too time consuming, sometimes all I can do in LOTRO is knock out my daily anniversary runs and log off to take care of RL.

[Macdui]

The problem we face is that we have two main routes to convey our thoughts: bug reports and forums.

Given that some bugs just never get fixed and there is no bug update mechanism who's to tell that most don't just get dropped in the bin. How far back do you save them? I imagine a load of things aren't even bugs at all and the danger is someone who knows no better "fixes" them; rust dye crit to make black dye was seen as a bug and fixed so removing the ability of a non guilded scholar to make black dyes. As more staff turnover it can only be more of a problem.

Because there is no bug transparency like an official bug forum with thread creating rights to devs only we can't give our view on potentially erroneous bugs, nor flesh out a real bug.

Alternatively we have forums that only a few of you feel able to contribute. Shyness was mentioned, maybe that should be in quotes? I think we all want devs who are confident and accomplished in what they do so wouldn't have issues with engaging with us on the forums. We take their absence in the only way we can.

Sometimes you guys deserve a bashing. We want you to succeed and make a great game but when we see the likes of that Mordor trailer release, it makes us ashamed that our friends know we play this game, still.

At other times we see the siege mentality kick in and you shutdown and ignore the embarrassing threads you (SSG) can't refute.

I'm glad you (MoL) have to pass stuff by Sev and the team, for a long time there was little sign that anyone was in charge. Took 2 months to be told we had a new EP (now ED apparently). I wish someone would tell me why I can't make a Tier 11 shield, can you?

And that's largely my problem. I can't think the way some things get implemented is WAI a good deal of the time, when we only have a pathetic dev "interview" marketing spiel to go on.

Mac

[Mar-Evayave]

This I agree with wholeheartedly. A good example was me not liking Mordor and calling it quits for a couple of months and playing WoW. I haven't tried ESO, you have me interested. I like Star Trek Online(I bought the TOS pack a few years ago), but it's just too time consuming, sometimes all I can do in LOTRO is knock out my daily anniversary runs and log off to take care of RL.

Graphics are phenomenal, crafting system is hard to do unless you sub for the extra crafting storage, and I recommend the Dark Brotherhood DLC. Never had so much fun before, sneaking up and slitting throats. Had a bit of an Assassins Creed feel to it.

[Nymphonic]

hard to do unless you sub for the extra crafting storage, .

Oh, when I try a new MMO I always sub. never do F2P. I think the $15 a month is worth missing one dinner or lunch out.

[Arnenna]

Oh, when I try a new MMO I always sub. never do F2P. I think the $15 a month is worth missing one dinner or lunch out.

Miss out food! Never lol. it's worth not buying that new pair of shoes, or maybe missing that trip to the cinema, but miss food, ermmm, hobbitses everywhere would be spitting teeth if they read that.

Back on topic, I think constructive criticism is not only healthy, but essential if we want a game that works well. As long as one stays within the rules, the team are usually fine with criticism for most part, and occasionally they take stuff on board. Doesn't always work that way though. Sometimes they suffer from reading incorrectly or misconstruing a point (humans will be humans) and take something the wrong way, or completely not as intended, and also not all criticism is acted upon.

[Mar-Evayave]

Oh, when I try a new MMO I always sub. never do F2P. I think the $15 a month is worth missing one dinner or lunch out.

In that case, the combat system is the only thing that might take some getting used to. The game does not use the traditional MMORPG combat style we are accustomed to with games like LOTRO, STO, WOW, SWTOR, etc. ESO is similar to the combat style of Skyrim. It is the reason my buddy and I quit the game. I had played Skyrim extensively and was fine with it, but he hadn't and couldn't get the hang of it, so we went back to playing other games.

[TamX]

Oh, when I try a new MMO I always sub. never do F2P. I think the $15 a month is worth missing one dinner or lunch out.

I willingly pay for the content I consume, no matter if it is a movie, TV series, books or games. But at the same time, for games, I need a free trial period before starting to pay. One of the biggest reasons for that is that I have Linux on my machine, and not all games work well with that. The second reason is that before committing to the game I want to see how it really works (I don't trust the advertisements). IMO, something like $10-$20 per month to a game or Netflix or HBO is very well justified if it pleases you.

About the topic: Yes, there is no reason to blame devs really, because it is the company policies driven by management which tells what you do. But I regard 'devs' as a generalized word meaning something like the company staff. Refering to devs means in fact to trying to reach the people behind the game and the decisions made to that game, not that much to the developers themselves - although I wouldn't mind devs taking the concerns of their content consumers to their own management