Devs: Lack of Response to Failed Burglar Updates is Unacceptable

[Hurtful]

To my knowledge, there has been zero communication whatsoever from anyone at SSG regarding all of the botched recent updates that were designed to bring the burglar back into the same realm of usefulness as the rest of the classes in group content. Unsurprisingly, as a result of these updates never making it into the game, the burglar appears to be lagging even further behind in group content than the class had before....to the point of near uselessness.

The usefulness of the burglar class can be debated. What can't be debated is the lack of professionalism and utter disrespect from the SSG staff to not only fail to deliver what was listed in the patch notes, but then completely ignore the entire burglar community for upwards of a month or more. You are a business that is attempting to provide a service that you want people to pay for. This example is only a single straw of hay in the haystack as to why people have lost complete faith in SSG as a business that aims to provide an enjoyable experience. Need you be reminded that more subscribers increases revenue, and in-turn helps fund future projects and/or keep the doors open at SSG.

This is poor business plain and simple. We all deserve better.

[Cordovan]

We've said several times that we are aware of the community's requests for Burglar, and hope to get at least some of it addressed in the future.

[Hurtful]

We've said several times that we are aware of the community's requests for Burglar, and hope to get at least some of it addressed in the future.

As far as I can tell that's not true. There is one post by you in another recent thread (that I had originally missed and looked for after your response to this thread). This has very little to do with the overall sense that the burglar class has been a mess for several years, and everything to do with the radio silence that followed the recent patch notes that were never actually implemented into the game.

The community has grown to accept that at this point in LOTRO's life you only have the time and resources to implement sweeping, superficial changes, but it's a problem when those listed changes don't even make it into the game. In most people's careers, indicating that you have completed a job when it was in fact never completed is a problem.

There's been no less than a half of a dozen threads (some are several pages) regarding this, and as far as I can tell, the only Dev response is the two posts from you (one of those is your post above) that seem to indicate that you don't understand the problem at hand.

[Aethilods]

As far as I can tell that's not true. There is one post by you in another recent thread (that I had originally missed and looked for after your response to this thread). This has very little to do with the overall sense that the burglar class has been a mess for several years, and everything to do with the radio silence that followed the recent patch notes that were never actually implemented into the game.

The community has grown to accept that at this point in LOTRO's life you only have the time and resources to implement sweeping, superficial changes, but it's a problem when those listed changes don't even make it into the game. In most people's careers, indicating that you have completed a job when it was in fact never completed is a problem.

There's been no less than a half of a dozen threads (some are several pages) regarding this, and as far as I can tell, the only Dev response is the two posts from you (one of those is your post above) that seem to indicate that you don't understand the problem at hand.

In cord's stream he said right the devs a small to-do list for a burglar to look at and perhaps fix, maybe read or be more open in forums, that is why during bullroarer their is feedback threads if you want to fix what you want to see fix maybe join in on the BR testing rather than bark at the devs about after they update them, and burgs are never meant to be top dps or be able ot stand toe to toe with rks/champ/hunts they are a debuff class not a dps class, so their support in a group is needed and maybe some extra dps might be useful

[Helwryeth]

In cord's stream he said right the devs a small to-do list for a burglar to look at and perhaps fix, maybe read or be more open in forums, that is why during bullroarer their is feedback threads if you want to fix what you want to see fix maybe join in on the BR testing rather than bark at the devs about after they update them

Well, speaking as someone who works in an industry where behaviour such as that displayed by the Devs of SSG could well get you fired (I'm a SCADA engineer creating control systems for the National Grid), then I have to say that the 'barking' is rather justified. It isn't the best of client service to claim you have done something and then, when it is revealed that you have, in fact, not done it, maintain a silence on the matter.

[peachykins]

that is why during bullroarer their is feedback threads if you want to fix what you want to see fix maybe join in on the BR testing rather than bark at the devs

HAHAHAHA people post feedback all the time in the BR forum & the majority of the time it goes ignored. So yeah people are gonna "bark" & rightfully so.

[Vilan]

that is why during bullroarer their is feedback threads if you want to fix what you want to see fix maybe join in on the BR testing rather than bark at the devs about after they update them

There have been 5 rounds of Bullroarer testing. People have commented in every feedback thread that the notes say burglar dps has been increased, but in actuality it has not. No response from the burglar dev at all.

[CaerArianrhod]

Well, speaking as someone who works in an industry where behaviour such as that displayed by the Devs of SSG could well get you fired (I'm a SCADA engineer creating control systems for the National Grid), then I have to say that the 'barking' is rather justified. It isn't the best of client service to claim you have done something and then, when it is revealed that you have, in fact, not done it, maintain a silence on the matter.

SSG is great at make use of the Ostrich effect, sitting there and waiting that the storm goes over and everything is getting forgotten.

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-company-motto

[Darkdede]

In cord's stream he said right the devs a small to-do list for a burglar to look at and perhaps fix, maybe read or be more open in forums, that is why during bullroarer their is feedback threads if you want to fix what you want to see fix maybe join in on the BR testing rather than bark at the devs about after they update them, and burgs are never meant to be top dps or be able ot stand toe to toe with rks/champ/hunts they are a debuff class not a dps class, so their support in a group is needed and maybe some extra dps might be useful

Right, the Burglar was meant to be the Master of the Fellowship Manoeuvre. Let’s have a look on how many bosses of the new raid we can use them.

[Rollag3]

We've said several times that we are aware of the community's requests for Burglar, and hope to get at least some of it addressed in the future.

More utter lies from SSG, you have said no such thing, and even if you did (YOU HAVE ALREADY PASSED IT AS RELEASED ON AN PREVIOUS UPDATE) so should be a priority, i bet if it was a damn upsidedown tree in the corner of some random place nobody visited then it would have been fixed ASAP. This is becoming a trend and as you now see, patience from your players only gets tolerated for so long, Because of your lack of replies to your players to not only reply to them, but to totally ignore them, is downright disrespectful.

You have known for weeksand weeks that burglar dps increase was not implemented however i learn today the next update is going live and these irrelevant things make it in the update.

NPCs in the Three-farrow Crafting Hall and Bree-town Vault no longer fall through their chairs.
A placement issue with a water volume in the Withered Heath has been fixed.
Brush has been cleared from the Barrow of Taradan's entrance.
Stair placement has been adjusted in Thikil-gundu's library.

But an actual class, that is borderline useless in every trait line, in any 6-12man doing 20% of the dps of hunters/rk's/champs, debuffs horrible vs loremasters,

DID YOU KNOW!!!!!!!!!
Captain (Red Line) dps = 35k+ SUSTAINED
Burglar Dps = 20-25k Sustained THATS IF YOU HAVE 100% POSITIONAL

Are you serious that you guys do not know your own game, to the point you ask for feedback, and totally ignore it all.

Only thing left to do at end game even for those who have grinded their way through the hideous favoured loot system is goto pvp, where you have totally neglected that part of the game.

Black arrows placing traps, and its gameover for anyone who walks through, minis unable to keep themselfs up let alone a group, no audacity sets, no more incentives in barterers.

Like it or not it is part of your game, and past all of your lies over the years does make up a considerable amount of your playerbase.

I dont know why you you changed your name from Turbine to SSG for a fresh start, if your just going to carry on making a mockery of the game. You lot really need a team meeting, and sort out where your going wrong, because this is probably the worst ive seen your playerbase's morale, in 11 years.

[Aethilods]

If you are expecting burglars to be top dps, then your asking for a bit much burglars are the class that add to the overall dps of a group like a captain, sure burglar should get a dps boost in the redline area maybe a trait that gives 23k pm at lvl 120, but you guys know there this thing called patience, if you want something to be good and perfect, wait and allow them to make the necessarily changes, and stop barking on the forums when they do something that you guys dont like, simply they know (the devs) what is in the next update and their own plans so if they want a burglar to be less dps than a captain well then fun, it is not like it was in Mordor when you accidentally grabbed 3 mobs and you got obviated, just let the process go through and see what may come of it, still I expect a good class, and i enjoy playing on my burg and sneaking around though my champ and hunter take all the fun. Though you guys seem like the type who whine when it is to easy and then whine when it is to hard, fine the warm area where it is just right or, better yet stop acting entitled and make a picture of ur ideal burglar and do that and dont expect to be top dps or 2nd best or close to a hunter or champ, and make a gamble since every time the devs put out a update it is a gamble, still I think all the devs should do moria runs and and quest just in moria and ask themselves why was moria so fun. I do agree with you guys on quality of things and the devs need to stop putting out half updates and i even get a little annoyed when i see bugs in a expansion area that ask some people who were willing to pay $129.99 for a 70% done project and the worst instance ever made.

[QueenArleth]

If you are expecting burglars to be top dps, then your asking for a bit much burglars are the class that add to the overall dps of a group like a captain, sure burglar should get a dps boost in the redline area maybe a trait that gives 23k pm at lvl 120, but you guys know there this thing called patience, if you want something to be good and perfect, wait and allow them to make the necessarily changes, and stop barking on the forums when they do something that you guys dont like, simply they know (the devs) what is in the next update and their own plans so if they want a burglar to be less dps than a captain well then fun, it is not like it was in Mordor when you accidentally grabbed 3 mobs and you got obviated, just let the process go through and see what may come of it, still I expect a good class, and i enjoy playing on my burg and sneaking around though my champ and hunter take all the fun. Though you guys seem like the type who whine when it is to easy and then whine when it is to hard, fine the warm area where it is just right or, better yet stop acting entitled and make a picture of ur ideal burglar and do that and dont expect to be top dps or 2nd best or close to a hunter or champ, and make a gamble since every time the devs put out a update it is a gamble, still I think all the devs should do moria runs and and quest just in moria and ask themselves why was moria so fun. I do agree with you guys on quality of things and the devs need to stop putting out half updates and i even get a little annoyed when i see bugs in a expansion area that ask some people who were willing to pay $129.99 for a 70% done project and the worst instance ever made.

Nobody is asking for burgs to become the top DPS; the main outrage is from the fact that a patch note said that "Burglar skill damage has been raised to compensate for Reveal Mark being lowered in magnitude" but after cross examining tooltips from before the update and after the update, it was found that there was no DPS increase as stated in patch notes.

The secondary outrage is from the fact that the first issue was not fixed yet and ignored altogether, and not even addressed in the patch that is coming tomorrow, despite the staff apparently being aware that it is an issue. We don't know when that fix is coming, so is every burglar in the game supposed to just wait indefinitely until that happens?

You are arguing a completely different and generic point, that people are just complaining about the state of Burglar for the sake of complaining (which is not true by the way), because you didn't fully get the gist of the OP's complaint.

[Snobs]

If you are expecting burglars to be top dps, then your asking for a bit much burglars are the class that add to the overall dps of a group like a captain, sure burglar should get a dps boost in the redline area maybe a trait that gives 23k pm at lvl 120, but you guys know there this thing called patience, if you want something to be good and perfect, wait and allow them to make the necessarily changes, and stop barking on the forums when they do something that you guys dont like, simply they know (the devs) what is in the next update and their own plans so if they want a burglar to be less dps than a captain well then fun, it is not like it was in Mordor when you accidentally grabbed 3 mobs and you got obviated, just let the process go through and see what may come of it, still I expect a good class, and i enjoy playing on my burg and sneaking around though my champ and hunter take all the fun. Though you guys seem like the type who whine when it is to easy and then whine when it is to hard, fine the warm area where it is just right or, better yet stop acting entitled and make a picture of ur ideal burglar and do that and dont expect to be top dps or 2nd best or close to a hunter or champ, and make a gamble since every time the devs put out a update it is a gamble, still I think all the devs should do moria runs and and quest just in moria and ask themselves why was moria so fun. I do agree with you guys on quality of things and the devs need to stop putting out half updates and i even get a little annoyed when i see bugs in a expansion area that ask some people who were willing to pay $129.99 for a 70% done project and the worst instance ever made.

Nobody says Burglar should be top dps, it's simply not justified that burglars are as weak as they are now. It's very worrysome that Cordovan said on stream that they (SSG) think that Burglars (or Red Burglars in particular) are "in a decent spot" which they are NOT. Let's not even talk about how bad Blue Line Burglars are.

Burglars are not able to stack Reveal Weakness anymore which means that if a Red Burglar does/can not compete with any other DPS (and they simply can't), there will never be a second Burglar in the new raid besides the yellow Burglar that is needed. Burglar does not have ANY AOE Damage capability so at least Single Target Damage should be on point, sadly, this is not the case at all. Burglars don't even come close to other DPS classes (and yes, RED BURGLAR IS A DPS CLASS, even Cordovan said that on Stream).

Red Burglars can do AT MAXIMUM 50-55k DPS by themselves and maybe 70-75k DPS in raid situations which doesn't even come close to RKs'/Hunters'/Champions' Raid DPS upwards of 120k DPS (and yes, these DPS numbers are happening).
This, together with the Burglar Class being melee only AND medium Armor AND ZERO AOE capabilites simply DOES NOT JUSTIFY Burglars' DPS right now.

Also, a daily reminder that this change, that was first announced in Beta Build#1 (where it didn't happen) and then in U23.1.7 (where it also didn't happen) IS STILL NOT IN THE GAME AND NO DEV HAS ANSWERED WHY THIS IS NOT IN THE GAME YET:

Burglar:
Skill damage and DoT damage increased. With reveal weakness decreasing in potency, Burglar damage needed to increase to compensate.

I'm not kidding, this change simply doesn't exist. It never made it to any server (Bullroarer AND live) and the Devs are straight up ignoring everyone that is pointing out to them that this change HAS NEVER HAPPENED. There have not been any compensation for the Reveal Weakness nerf which hurts Burglar (an already terrible PvE class) even more.

Also, your argument that we simply need to be more patient is invalid, we've had FIVE Beta Builds, NOTHING about burglars has changed since Beta Build#1 despite SO MUCH FEEDBACK (including that one of the few changes didn't even happen, see above). There has been ZERO communication about anything regarding Burglar Class in ALL 5 Beta Builds. There has not been any implementation of ANY feedback received during those Beta Builds. How much longer are supposed to wait until any communication by the devs is happening? People are starting to call out devs because they feel ignored.

I've also made a small list for some changes regarding the Burglar class that should help at least a little bit to make Burglars in all 3 specs more playable/viable: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...57#post7905557

[BelamanthDE]

Maybe we should do a #BurglarsMarch to Bree. We all silently sneak from the West Gate to the City Council Square, invisibly plant banners etc.

I mean, if they can't see us and can't hear us, then maybe they also can't ignore us? :-D

[Hildilas]

We've said several times that we are aware of the community's requests for Burglar, and hope to get at least some of it addressed in the future.

The reason why many players are angry and maybe even sad is that there are again classes that will not be chosen for T3 raid and are already not chosen for T3 endgame OR even T2 endgame because they bring so much disadvantage.

(Esp 1. BURG (!) 2/3 Champ and Warden)

I can really feel all main Burgs. Mine is just a twink but the warden tank is my main and it really hurts. THIS is even worse for Burgs right now. Between the last raid and this one you really had more than enough time to figure out what went wrong with some classes in the abyss.
(yeah most groups had one Burg in the abyss but just because 2 LMs don't make that much sense and he wasn't nerfed back then..that is going to be the Burgs role in T3 raid too but still)

"No we take a guard/captain sry wardens are behind...pls logg on your LM/hunter/Beo".
"No pls logg on RK...It is more efficient than a Champ."
"Burg huh? Hm well...debuffs aren't that great...damage neither...for cons we got a guard..pls logg on Hunter/RK we need more damage."

[Khazneh1]

To my knowledge, there has been zero communication whatsoever from anyone at SSG regarding all of the botched recent updates that were designed to bring the burglar back into the same realm of usefulness as the rest of the classes in group content. Unsurprisingly, as a result of these updates never making it into the game, the burglar appears to be lagging even further behind in group content than the class had before....to the point of near uselessness.

The usefulness of the burglar class can be debated. What can't be debated is the lack of professionalism and utter disrespect from the SSG staff to not only fail to deliver what was listed in the patch notes, but then completely ignore the entire burglar community for upwards of a month or more. You are a business that is attempting to provide a service that you want people to pay for. This example is only a single straw of hay in the haystack as to why people have lost complete faith in SSG as a business that aims to provide an enjoyable experience. Need you be reminded that more subscribers increases revenue, and in-turn helps fund future projects and/or keep the doors open at SSG.

This is poor business plain and simple. We all deserve better.

Are the devs really aware of how bad the burglar class is to play at the moment?
No groups will take a burglar into an on-level tier 2/3 instance.

The burglar is supposed to be a high damage, single target, melee class; at the moment it is one of the lower DPS classes, with pretty poor survivability, due to the difficulty of getting reasonable evade (it's main survivability factor).

My burglar has been my main character for the past 12 years since it was so much fun to play and not easy to play well, but currently I harldy play him, I get a much better game experience from almost any other class.

[harly2000]

My thoughts about this. SSG devs seems to be living in they own little world. Its just very bad feeling when you spend the effort to gear up your class and then turns out you arent welcome for endgame runs. All what players want is to play they classes, which they spent years to level up and grind (which increases with every update) the gear, in endgame situation. Nobody is asking for Burglars or any class for that matter to be number 1 class in every situation, all they ask that they class is equivalanty usefull in raids. Right now 2/3 of class trait lines are useless in endgame situations and meele classes(unless you are tank) are taken in endgame runs out of pity. Player feedback gets mostly ignored and even worst is that out of nowhere you get nerfs, like with Burgs and recent Cappy Oathy nerf, which wasnt even related to skill but low level armor set bonuses. Worst of all seems that SSG arent even listening. Ask yourself a question is this ###### atitude from SSG devs are worth your time and you arent better off playing diferent games, since SSG downright dont respect they playerbase.
P.S Ostriches dont stick they heads in ground. Thats just myth. So SSG cant use that as exscuse.

[liverpaste]

This is poor business plain and simple. We all deserve better.

This whole thread is REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[Treliarhs]

if burglar dps is nerfed ( good thing ) anyone noticed a nerf on wargs also ?
any coward class that can bail in middle of fight must be nerfed its dps

[Drizzels]

At first:nobody cares about pvp,so please leave that out of the complete discussion!

Second @Cordovan:

We were supposed to get this from Update 23.1.7:
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-Release-Notes

it says:
"Skill damage and DoT damage increased. With reveal weakness decreasing in potency, Burglar damage needed to increase to compensate."

THIS NEVER HAPPEND

THIS SHOULD NOT BE A PART OF THE DISCUSSION NOW, THIS SHOULD BE NOT A QUESTION FOR ANY DEVS IF IT IS NEEDED.
THIS NEEDS TO HAPPEN

otherwise:
Red burg should be top tier dps,together with red champ.
why?:Melee class,single target dps.
Was that case at lv 65,75,85 and it was totally fine,balance was good.


Otherwise:
Yellow burg needs changes in terms of tricks being aoe+stackable!
Blue burg need a complete change in general

THE BURG CHANGES WE GOT ARE A JOKE!

[Canarne]

if burglar dps is nerfed ( good thing ) anyone noticed a nerf on wargs also ?
any coward class that can bail in middle of fight must be nerfed its dps

forget about pvmp balance

[random_player_897469]

I agree with Hurtful and the others on this.
SSG, you gotta fix the burg and make it on a par with the other classes!

[Treliarhs]

Lets have faith, MAYBE now burg Will be exactly were devs And Ssg want him to be

[Xruptor]

I don't play a burglar and honestly I don't think they should be top dps and compete with (RK,CHAMP,HUNTER) as they are a support/debuffer class. HOWEVER......

I'm shocked that some burglar issues have not been addressed by now. I've come across several burglar threads over the weeks and it apparent they need to be looked at. A lot of people have some very valid points and well written articles on the issues the class currently has. It may seem like 'barking' but they are just being vocal on a class they are very passionate about. I would get discouraged too if several patches later the majority of issues with the class has have not been addressed. I know Cordovan has replied a few times in multiple Burglar threads (of which I'm sure the Burglar players are grateful for). But I believe what the Burglar players are looking for is a well thought out and descriptive plan of how exactly the SSG team will address the Burglar shortcomings and issues.

This is just my 2cents as an observer looking at these Burglar threads.

[MoonwalkIntoMordor]

We've said several times that we are aware of the community's requests for Burglar, and hope to get at least some of it addressed in the future.

Does the situation really look like everything is okay overall and we're just asking for minor adjustments? The class is far behind the two other support classes and the other melee DPS class. LM and Cap has way more utility and flexibility. Champion has more durability and AoE damage. Does the ability to sneak really mean we have to be sub-par at everything else?

I'm having difficulty understanding how you (as in SSG) internally justify this class being so undesirable. Even if you don't have in-house testers or simulations that test a Burglar in different conditions, surely you must have access to metrics from live servers.