Car Bronach: Quests Part 2 Review

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

So I've just finished the remaining Car Bronach quests. While there were some positives (the Drearspire interior is cool, I liked meeting up with characters from the past), I'm left a bit befuddled by some of it. Spoilers below!

The Trev Duvardain

I like that the Trev Duvardain show up again - but they have a properly limited role. Soltakh appears to be their leader in the cave, but then he refers to being led by Domongart. This being the Domongart who cast out Avair (later Gun Ain) and Drostan (later Soltakh) from the Trev Duvardain. Soltakh then joins the Trev Gallorg and works against the Trev Duvardain. Yet Soltakh appears to be happy to follow Domongart again, given that Domongart has turned against Angmar, although a rump of hill men seem to have stayed loyal, led by the third boss we encounter in the Drearspire (Claghord), who runs away, suggesting that he already knows that the Angmarim plan has failed. Domongart then shows up at the peak of the Drearspire, having made an alliance with the leader of the giants against the Angmarim.

A couple of issues with this:
1) It seems to make little sense that Soltakh goes back to Domongart - surely it would have made more sense for this role to have been filled by Crannog of the Trev Gallorg, with Domongart as the leader who remains loyal to the Angmarim?
2) We kill the sons of the leader of the giants, and although he says that he's unhappy about it, he also gives the impression he doesn't mind too much...?
3) Soltakh is apparently working against the Angmarim, but he only shows up for one set of quests, then he says he won't work with the Dourhands. Then Domongart works with the Dourhands, and we don't hear from Soltakh (or the others from his cave) again. This feels rather rushed, to say the least!

The Angmarim

As I understand it, the Angmarim retreated from Angmar after the fall of Mordirith. Fine, that makes sense. They then set themselves up in their old lands in Car Bronach. Again, easy enough. Some of them decide to attack the dwarves. Reasonable enough. Then they find themselves sort of under attack, sort of working with the Dourhands under Brathar Crackhelm. They are custodians of the Rhudaur stone, but at some point the stone was moved out. When we confront High Priestess Aschal, she said her plans have already been achieved. She then dies.

1) What is the plan of the Angmarim? Is it referring to the story of Gloomingtarn, with the breaking of the barriers around the sacred lake and the theft of the Black Anvil? Or is this a different plan?
2) Does the plan have something to do with the Rhudaur stone, which has been moved? Where has it been moved to, if so? Also, how has it been moved, given it was huge and situated at the top of a really tall tower with only narrow staircases leading to it?

The Dourhands and Brathar Crackhelm

So Brathar is introduced in Elderslade as this big bad boss - his Dourhands seem dominant in Car Bronach, particularly at the Witchgate. The capture of Reithvard leads to our characters being sent off to scupper the plans of the Angmarim, which we do. Reithvard then escapes and returns to Brathar. We next meet Reithvard at Soltakh's cave, when he's offering us an alliance with Brathar. Odd, but sort of in line with the way the narrative was going. Brathar then encourages us to attack the Drearspire, which we do. On the second level of the Drearspire are DOURHANDS, Brathar's people, who we kill - without any indication in the narrative that we were no longer working with Brathar and his people. Then, at the top of the Drearspire, we find Brathar surrounded by a whole host of the Gabil'akka (a section on this in a minute!), saying that he is really sorry, that he was lured by the Rhudaur stone, while Reithvard swears to never follow him again.

1) This feels like a bit of a betrayal of Brathar's character. Don't set him up as a big bad boss, for him just to be knocked down by Gloin (who he appears to know?). This feels rather like there was a plan to make him an instance boss, but the instance got cancelled and so Brathar's role was changed. This is probably the most disappointing part of the storyline.
2) Why do we kill the Dourhands on the second tier? Again, this feels like a part of the instance that never was, when it became clear that Brathar had betrayed us - and perhaps Reithvard would be the boss of that level.

The Zhelruka and GLOIN

Mezto sends us to Orug who is dealing with the giants, then Uzvat who has found the hillmen cave. We then start working with the hill men, and we don't encounter Mezto again until the peak of the Drearspire (instead working with Muta, who somehow knows to meet us outside the Drearspire). At the peak of the Drearspire, we find Mezto alongside PRINCE INGOR and GLOIN. Gloin has just punched Brathar, then Mezto and Ingor gloat about what an amazing plan they had.

1) What plan was this? Mezto didn't really have any plan - he just sent us to meet the hillmen.
2) What on earth are Prince Ingor and Gloin doing there? Neither have been seen before in Car Bronach, but they just show up randomly at the peak of the Drearspire, with Gloin apparently angry about Brathar's betrayal - but he's not even encountered him before!


Summary

To summarise, while I'm glad that this series of quests wasn't just let in limbo (like the ones in Thuringwaith - poor old Gandalf, still staring at the balrog statue!), it feels like a bit of a botch job.

We know that the SSG team are more than capable of telling good stories, but it feels like at least 3 different story arcs were squished in 20 quests, most of which were collect/kill quests.

I also feel like the initial intention to have an instance cap off this zone (which then didn't materialise) is a pretty obvious omission, with the new storyline being adapted and simplified, but not really being checked for narrative consistency. As can be seen from my questions above, there are elements that just don't make sense, or need just 1 or 2 more quests to join the dots.

While I understand that there are pressures to get content out on time (which is presumably why half of the Car Bronach quests were cut in the first place), doing a botch and rushed job to finish off the storyline (without adapting the narrative to account for a different ending/no instance) is a shame, although I’d argue it isn’t too late to update it. This area and these characters (particularly Brathar) have so much promise - it would be good to see the most made out of them.

[Vilan]

Just finished Car Bronach. I'm glad I'm not the only one who was feeling confused. In particular, the final confrontation at the top of Drearspire made no sense. Like they tried to squeeze in 3 plot twists all at the same time (I betrayed you! and the stone's gone! and Gloin's here! and the giants too! and they made up a fake alliance to hide their real one! and this is already more than 3 plot twists!) and just ended up with an incomprehensible mess. I had hoped that things might be clarified later on, but apparently not.

[TesalionLortus]

1) It seems to make little sense that Soltakh goes back to Domongart - surely it would have made more sense for this role to have been filled by Crannog of the Trev Gallorg, with Domongart as the leader who remains loyal to the Angmarim?

True, although the way I see it everything regarding Angmarim factions right now is fair game - everyone betrays everyone if given a chance or co-works together if convenient (or if there is a figure of authority everyone fears) but *for different goals entirely.* I guess Trev Gallorg are just happy to live at peace now that Carn Dum threat has been completely diminished or at least contained with free peoples guarding from all sides? So Trév Duvárdain were either redeemed off-screen OR exiled/self-exiled but not willing to serve Angmarim anymore once they lost their power and most orcs abandoned them for Gorgar. Perhaps Soltakh is supposed to be an example of 'can't deal with it, so gonna return to my clan if they allow it' rather than 'was offered a place amongst an enemy and grew a soft spot' kind of thing. Which is likely but yeah, an explanation would have been nice, though I guess we might get one if we ever hear from Trev Gallorg again?

2) We kill the sons of the leader of the giants, and although he says that he's unhappy about it, he also gives the impression he doesn't mind too much...?

He's shown restraint... LOL. At the same time it was basically 'now get out of here, don't want to see your kind here ever again or gonna eat you alive' attitude

Soltakh is apparently working against the Angmarim, but he only shows up for one set of quests, then he says he won't work with the Dourhands. Then Domongart works with the Dourhands, and we don't hear from Soltakh (or the others from his cave) again. This feels rather rushed, to say the least!

This one is OK. I guess Domongart said "we have giants now, so gotta strike and deal with them now that the assault has begun, won't really have many losses on our side" and everyone was aboard. Logic semantics. Sometimes LOTRO does indeed deal with secondary or third rate regional chains that way and I can live with it.

the Angmarim retreated from Angmar after the fall of Mordirith

This but at the same time I was under the impression they're still flowing to Car Bronach from Angmar and that maybe some still cause minor troubles in Angmar? There are Gash-hai attacking in Agmar or we have to secure the pass to Car Bronach in the missions. Also, I know the Angmarim are literally master architects with their little homes they transport on their backs (anyone remember their hidden settlement in-exile in North Downs lol :P) but the impression I got from the content - the ominous road to Angmar featured in Ered Mithrin, the tower of lore in Three Peaks, the pass to Car Bronach, the Rhuadar-stone which isn't a mere trinket and clearly needed to be kept safe - is that they always had presence in those areas to begin with, just limited. There was even a hint of some kind of "terrible evil awakening in Gundabad" or something like that in the Voin flashbacks when he meets Earnur and his knights who were dealing with the remnants of Angmar so maybe there was an Angmar connection to it. So clearly they had lots of infrastructure of old and influence in the area, they knew the terrain well. So to see them dealt with so quickly was kind of disappointing indeed.

What is the plan of the Angmarim? Is it referring to the story of Gloomingtarn, with the breaking of the barriers around the sacred lake and the theft of the Black Anvil? Or is this a different plan?

I'm not the dev so who knows - but IMO clearly a different plan since Ruvaran acted on his own, made some personal alliances with Gorgar along the way (bragged about it in first Gundabad instance of Trials) and the relic that he used, even some of his peers were glad that he was gone, so curious. Also, the relic, WHERE is it? That's clearly a purposeful loose end, at the very least.

Does the plan have something to do with the Rhudaur stone, which has been moved? Where has it been moved to, if so? Also, how has it been moved, given it was huge and situated at the top of a really tall tower with only narrow staircases leading to it?

She said the plan was achieved, then died. Before that happens, Claghord says this: "I wanted to see what I would be up against after you toppled Ásachal's foolish plans." Which means he expected you to actually stop her and considered her plan stupid (or not very interesting/not helpful in his POV, so the only thing I could think of is some crazy witchcraft, curses, fallen spirits and other sorcery stuff). So unless she actually did a ritual that teleported the stone to a more secure location... which wouldn't really be a "plan" that she actually worked on but something she would have to come up with at the last minute when it turned out Dourhands betrayed them too and their defenses can't hold - which means it literally couldn't have been IT, besides... teleporting the stone that would be a stupid reveal. So I think the stone was moved way before that (with chains, lots of scaffolding and whatnot) and Claghord knows where that is, plain and simple, hoping to become the big boss of that place now that Asachal is gone.




Hmm, with Angmarim really there was a pattern here, and even though Asachal was considered the boss here, it's not like she really had control over everything.

The host of Angmarim was sent to raise bats in War of the Three Peaks and the Tower provided oversight and support, later interested in the crystal endeavor. From the strategic point of view they - more or less foot soldiers, with lesser leaders - were probably the only ones who actually cared to do battle/improve Angmar strategic strength because that's something that made sense and you gotta support Gorgar, even if only to get free access to Gundabad. But what about the actual leaders?

Some crazy guy discovered seeping corruption from the dead dragon and dedicated his life to it. Others followed. Under pretense of 'scientific, military endeavor for Angmar' but ended up corrupting for corruption's sake with crazy notes left and killing their own at altars, as was the will of the entity because it wanted to spread. A significant force of Angmar was spent on THIS

The cult of Drugoth took yet another substantial contingent of Angmar and made alliances with the Froste-horde - under the permission from Asachal or not - just to try and maybe bring Drugoth back to the world. Once successful - happy to die, nothing matters no more LOL.

Ruvaran went completely solo, the way I see it. Made alliance with Gorgar, took some of his lieutenants and another substantial force of Angmar, broke the wards with the mysterious Fell-graver, took the Anvil and went to the peak (lost the Fell-graver somewhere?), left Gorgar orcs and some of the Angmarim behind (who in turn started to run rampant and do whatever the heck *they* thought was cool which led to the entire Gloomingtarn climax). Now, wait for it - Fell-graver no longer being of use (or perhaps he was bored with it by now), what he wanted now was to bring the mountain down... on everyone's heads including his own folk below... but the enemies of Angmar would suffer greatly! So the idea was appealing and maybe his competitors to the throne would be swept away too so that's a green light

Now, the boss from the tower in Elderslade - basically betrays Asachal when Brathar's guys give them a good beating and does what he is told



The Angmarim, especially leaders, had become a bit similar to some terrorist groups LOL (a simplification of course but the closest irl I can think of). Die for The Thing of your own, explore and make your own plans, your own alliances, if it's for Angmar - all is good. Death is nothing, conventional war is hardly of interest, the mysticism, biological warfare and instructions of the immortal (not orcs though) are the future. Following that logic... it is MOST likely Asachal managed to necromance something nefarious up there, perhaps using ingredients from the stone, the effects of which might be visible further along the way? At least I hope so. Though the execution of the quest chain was still a bit off

This feels like a bit of a betrayal of Brathar's character. Don't set him up as a big bad boss, for him just to be knocked down by Gloin (who he appears to know?). This feels rather like there was a plan to make him an instance boss, but the instance got cancelled and so Brathar's role was changed. This is probably the most disappointing part of the storyline.
2) Why do we kill the Dourhands on the second tier? Again, this feels like a part of the instance that never was, when it became clear that Brathar had betrayed us - and perhaps Reithvard would be the boss of that level.

Yeah exactly. Although it's really hard to tell whether it WAS supposed to be an instance content or not. A part of me had this dreadful thought during early Car Bronach questing that Brathar was probably reserved for a fellowship instance and those things are usually resolved in easy, short-lived ways (=no long story to tell) - so I hated this idea in my head, that there is a chance it'll turn out like this. Then again, in LOTRO's history I was never really fooled into a bit bigger expectation only for it to go in completely opposite direction or be entirely wasted - so idk, I thought there were some hints that Brathar was set up for something more substantial, like that entire speech of the tortured Angmarim in Elderslade where he mentioned some kind of prophecy about Angmar's dawnfall and Brathar's great ambitions. Also, before he faked that good will and alliance in Car Bronach, Brathar was pretty much talking about mending the Iron Crown and as a result... bringing order to their chaotic, scattered ranks, maybe even getting some orc servants back. Because yeah, the actual Angmarim leaders really did not care as much in those areas... as Gundabad had shown, so THAT previous speech of his FROM ELDERSLADE does make a lot of sense NOW. So very strange if it was really just "pretend to serve Angmar but really have no plans here, just to defeat them and grab the giant stone"

Hmm the only think I can think of would be that his plans to attack the Spire were like super secret, only most loyal of followers involved, and he did not care about collateral. Maybe some Dourhands were still too loyal or too fearful of Angmar, followers of 'Skorgrim's' wishes or something idk. But yeah, badly explained. Or just a fail.

Still... whatever is the case and the reason it turned out like this I would love for Brathar to be brought back in the future. The character had so much potential with mystery and some more complex plot possible, maybe even more details about Dourhand history and whatnot (would love to know the history behind their banner, for example). The Claghord guy seems boring in comparison.

What on earth are Prince Ingor and Gloin doing there? Neither have been seen before in Car Bronach, but they just show up randomly at the peak of the Drearspire, with Gloin apparently angry about Brathar's betrayal - but he's not even encountered him before!

I think Gloin heard about him in Elderslade and it would make sense for two leaders to be present during the crucial assault but yeah... things were so rushed, especially that last instance...

To summarise, while I'm glad that this series of quests wasn't just let in limbo (like the ones in Thuringwaith - poor old Gandalf, still staring at the balrog statue!), it feels like a bit of a botch job.

While I understand that there are pressures to get content out on time (which is presumably why half of the Car Bronach quests were cut in the first place), doing a botch and rushed job to finish off the storyline (without adapting the narrative to account for a different ending/no instance) is a shame, although I’d argue it isn’t too late to update it. This area and these characters (particularly Brathar) have so much promise - it would be good to see the most made out of them.

It was never like Gandalf in Thuringwath because there was actually a "the story will be continued in future update" once the chain stopped, and then they released the rest of it. If anything, it has become like Gandalf in Turingwath now - only a bit more confusing and totally unclear what to expect, with very conflicting messages thrown our way. Gandalf in Turingwath doesn't really have a "this story will be continued" but the story context is indeed curious, he is intrigued and left struggling with a fell spirit (in a barlog statue, curiously) trying to learn something, no indication that this has something to do with Turingwath business to begin with. Also, I think I saw a blue name say they have intentionally left some of Turingwath "without quest guidance" so you can explore the emptiness and instance location on your own with this cool feeling of dread and emptiness, so Gandalf trusts you enough to be able to do that - in a place like this - and not die. So the question arises - what was THAT important about that seemingly powerful watching-stone? Aside from things like the Wedding which is taken out of the flow of time - he is still standing there and has never appeared to date... can't be a coincidence? Doesn't look like a fail, at least not until Gandalf suddenly appears in Gundabad next update with a cup of tea with news of what he's been up to in Minas Tirith and doesn't even mention the watching stone. Brathar situation and some of the unexplained Car Bronach content are kinda similar now, except it had a final instance (an instance usually ends each regional story chain in Gundabad region, or any region for that matter) so there is this looming "what if that's it?" "maybe it's just that disappointing" etc - especially regarding the punched Brathar.

So would be nice if a blue name could confirm whether that's an issue they are aware of and whether there is something to be properly delivered here given opportunity... or whether it's considered done and mostly resolved sadly

[OldMadeOfLions]

So would be nice if a blue name could confirm... whether there is something to be properly delivered here given opportunity... or whether it's considered done and mostly resolved

The developer who brought this quest chain across the finish line has moved on to other opportunities, so any further additions or changes would have to involve someone else picking it up for revamping -- not impossible, but not on the schedule. I've found that there's very little in LOTRO that has to be considered Done Forever, and quest lines can sometimes be improved with additional context. So I think it's better to say it's Done For Now, unless someone volunteers to polish it up a bit more.

MoL

[TesalionLortus]

The developer who brought this quest chain across the finish line has moved on to other opportunities, so any further additions or changes would have to involve someone else picking it up for revamping -- not impossible, but not on the schedule.

I see, thanks for the clarification!

I've found that there's very little in LOTRO that has to be considered Done Forever, and quest lines can sometimes be improved with additional context. So I think it's better to say it's Done For Now, unless someone volunteers to polish it up a bit more.

MoL

Indeed. With the character of Claghord/missing Rhaduar-stone there is clearly a need to follow up on that someday so perhaps that could be a window to come back to Brathar Crack-helm, Dourhands and some of the unexplained Car Bronach stuff? Hopefully