Creep Movement.

[Areyekuwe]

I do not feel like we can tell them that:

In an effort to continue bringing a measure of parity to movement across the Ettenmoors, we have further adjusted maps to 60 minute cooldowns. Maps to Gramsfoot and Glan Vraig are now on 5 minute cooldowns.

Is the definition of talking out of both sides of the mouth. Because 60 min is a real long time. And out of combat ran speed in combat area is just not available. Perhaps give creeps 68% ran speed that can be entered out of combat but would not get interrupted every time you ran too close to a bird? (similar to a horse?)

Perhaps this whole system should be looked at more? Like really more?

Now with all the maps overlapping AND on the same CD, their locations are redundant.

Some one offered an idea of teleports / stables-like for creeps. I like it. Make an out of combat rooms or watch tower(!) in DG and OR where we could take a port to from home base?

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

I am literally shaking.... I have had problems breathing since this change. Its completely unfathomable.

for years when there was a callout of a fight at a map point, I have always been able to be there instantly with my whole tribe.... now I have to walk forever and by the time I get there the fight is over. HOW IS THIS FAIR? WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?!?!?

when there is a fight, i want to be there NOW and I want all my friends to be there NOW. EVERYONE. INSTANTLY. no one left behind.

the 155% runspeed isn't even 155%, its only 55% faster than normal runspeed... disgusting.



I haven't been this shook since Vietnam, and that's saying something.

[KurysFlame]

I'm on Crickhollow. Most of my time as a creep has been pve. Not out of choice. There are occasionally good fights going on, but it's not often enough to progress solely through that. (This has especially been the case since U34. Before the update, things were actually starting to look more active.) Maps made the extremely slow progression grind without pvp somewhat bearable.

That said ideally there should be way more pvp than pve in the pvp focused content. And I'd be all for map nerfs if things were as they should be. Or if there were other ways to grind out what I need to be competitive. These updates seem overly focused on large scale pvp when the issue is first getting to that point.

Anyhow, the trolls who reply to every creep complaint about maps can stuff it. Heck, before U34 on Crickhollow it was far more likely to be freeps camping grams (which actually wasn't that bad, since it often started larger conflicts). There's more reason to want maps than an unfair advantage. At least discuss a compromise rather than constantly building strawmen.

[Neinda]

My opinion is give both sides maps (maybe fewer maps) or allow porting between owned keeps and outposts. It would liven up the Moors quite a bit. It would be fair if both sides had the same opportunity to move around the map. Yes, the no maps is great for those that solo stealth because now they can be long gone after a call out and no one can port in and kill them. No, they don't help a raid move across the map at a decent speed and if someone dies and retreats they are probably out of the next couple rounds of fighting depending on the rez circle they end up at.

If you don't want to lower the map cool down let the creeps buy the travel skills that reduce travel times in the store. Maybe you could make each map its own separate cool down so that each map could be used once per hour. Give the creeps mounts to ride with speeds that match the freeps. Shrink the Moors map a bit so everything is closer together and neither side has far to travel. There is a lot of empty space between keeps and outposts you could remove to make things closer. There are plenty of ways to balance the travel speed and I am sure many people have other ideas that would work just fine.

Making the creeps move slower than the freeps and not having the ability to use a hunter to port seems to be a bit one sided. One hour maps are not overly helpful or useful.

[Areyekuwe]

I feel that for some strange reason there is something against maps. It all started with accidental breaking / removal of the "Report to..." quest rewarding 1 min map to grams. It never got put back in. And endless play with a CD on maps started.

Maps are really good, they are the important staple of the game.

Locations should be reworked. CDes can be changed. But 60 min is a cancel move not a change. For my taste 10 min was too long, but I could live with that. Just looking at all the maps in weird clusters on my PVMP+ map made me sad. But now they are gone? This is meant to promote something? -It's a bit extreme of a move seriously.

Reduce the numbers of maps, reconsider the locations. Rethink if it is possible to return to the situation when we had 3 sets of maps with 3 separate cooldowns?
-With reducing total number of maps would not be an issue.

An example: 5 min CD on each, individually.

Locations: DG; OC; Groth; Grams. - I know many people will say this is too little and many people will say this is too much. But current situation is a bit too much, so, give us a little, please?

Also beornings can run faster then creeps. No one uses sub par horses in moors, so slowest horse is at 68%. So, what is this 155%
(that looks great as a number but is not as fast as beorning run boost)
and also breaks when you are not running in circles around rocks to avoid everything that could possibly break it?

[Kate00]

Still can't catch horses. Still have no ranged interrupt for defilers.

All in all, freeps are still getting away. How many ways do they need to avoid death?

[SingularityNow]

Still can't catch horses. Still have no ranged interrupt for defilers.

All in all, freeps are still getting away. How many ways do they need to avoid death?

https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/No_You_Don%27t!

Make friends.

[Kate00]

https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/No_You_Don%27t!

Make friends.

So, I should be forced to play the way you think I should and not solo? Only responding because this was funny.

[SingularityNow]

So, I should be forced to play the way you think I should and not solo? Only responding because this was funny.

First of all, we all know you never play solo. Second of all, do I think people should group up in a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER online game? Yes, if you can't accomplish your goals solo.

[theREVOnAtOr]

The map meddling I seriously can't comprehend. My creeps on Arkenstone earned their maps on Elidelmir many many moons ago and the thought that creeps had "secret passage" advantage in the Ettenmoors was foundational to the area. The freeps have horses, creeps were supposed to have "home field advantage" in the movement department.

I really think it's time to stick a fork in it. It's been a good run with LotRO, I think that run is ended at least for me. I still log on from time to time, but the draw is dead.

P.S. I haven't leveled a freep in any systematic way since the level 65 cap. It was creepside PvP that kept me playing.

[OnnMacMahal]

Our goal is to push creep movement capability (outside of class mechanics and in particular outside of combat) closer to freep movement. We're not done adjusting March. It is currently broken by aggro, yes, but also works in water and can be applied while moving. We're still working out some of those kinks, and the closer we get March to working with the same limitations as freep mounts, the closer their movement bonuses can safely become.

the thought that creeps had "secret passage" advantage in the Ettenmoors was foundational to the area

This might have been true once upon a time, but back then creeps didn't have March! and movement across the map was slower in general. Maps often serve to make much of the zone 'dead' space that is simply skipped over. The cooldowns were so short that a creep group could map across the zone from grams to TR, capture the keep, and map back to grams in only a few minutes, and then immediately do it again somewhere else. That doesn't allow for any reasonable opposition group to even try to contest the capture. It also promoted play like logging in and immediately mapping to GTR to join the GV/TR shuffle, without ever crossing open spaces. If that's the case, why even play in a zone with Arador's End, Plains, Hoarhollow, etc. By pushing March closer to freep mounts, both sides should have roughly equivalent movement capability, because at this point in the game, there isn't a strong reason why one side should have significantly improved movement relative to the other.


Orion and I have been making a lot of changes in the Ettenmoors lately. Some will have greater benefit for creeps, others for freeps. Some will benefit new players more, others veteran players. It's a complicated zone, with lots of different players in it, but we're committed to making changes that benefit the overall health of PvP, because we all want to see the Ettenmoors full of players.

[Areyekuwe]

Yes, yes, mounts for creeps will be turtles.

[Areyekuwe]

This might have been true once upon a time, but back then creeps didn't have March! and movement across the map was slower in general. Maps often serve to make much of the zone 'dead' space that is simply skipped over. The cooldowns were so short that a creep group could map across the zone from grams to TR, capture the keep, and map back to grams in only a few minutes, and then immediately do it again somewhere else. That doesn't allow for any reasonable opposition group to even try to contest the capture. It also promoted play like logging in and immediately mapping to GTR to join the GV/TR shuffle, without ever crossing open spaces. If that's the case, why even play in a zone with Arador's End, Plains, Hoarhollow, etc. By pushing March closer to freep mounts, both sides should have roughly equivalent movement capability, because at this point in the game, there isn't a strong reason why one side should have significantly improved movement relative to the other.

Well, good to gear that this is the direction then.

I still feel that maps should exist. (currently they do not, because 1 hour CD is too long)

To contest a keep take over one needs to lead a group or a raid over most likely during the take over. How fast a take over is would depend on the DPS of the group doing it. And has nothing to do with travel to and from time really.

It's not like some one is watching troop movement from a drone.

We had a few times contested takeover when there was no DPS on the contestant side and we just ignored them. -Happens all the time, actually.

Revork map-in locations. Reduce numbers of maps. Keep reasonable CD in place.

Proposed map in locations are Grams. DG. Groth. OC. Proposed individual CD on each one is 5 min.
-Above can also operate like swift stablemaster.
Say you can travel from Grams only to DG, from DG only to Grams and OC. From OC only to DG and Groth. From Groth only to OC.

Ran speed: boost to 60% at least. Make it possible to maintain if no sagnificant damage is taken. (even if you ran past a wolf in the distance)

[Neinda]

Our goal is to push creep movement capability (outside of class mechanics and in particular outside of combat) closer to freep movement. We're not done adjusting March. It is currently broken by aggro, yes, but also works in water and can be applied while moving. We're still working out some of those kinks, and the closer we get March to working with the same limitations as freep mounts, the closer their movement bonuses can safely become.



This might have been true once upon a time, but back then creeps didn't have March! and movement across the map was slower in general. Maps often serve to make much of the zone 'dead' space that is simply skipped over. The cooldowns were so short that a creep group could map across the zone from grams to TR, capture the keep, and map back to grams in only a few minutes, and then immediately do it again somewhere else. That doesn't allow for any reasonable opposition group to even try to contest the capture. It also promoted play like logging in and immediately mapping to GTR to join the GV/TR shuffle, without ever crossing open spaces. If that's the case, why even play in a zone with Arador's End, Plains, Hoarhollow, etc. By pushing March closer to freep mounts, both sides should have roughly equivalent movement capability, because at this point in the game, there isn't a strong reason why one side should have significantly improved movement relative to the other.


Orion and I have been making a lot of changes in the Ettenmoors lately. Some will have greater benefit for creeps, others for freeps. Some will benefit new players more, others veteran players. It's a complicated zone, with lots of different players in it, but we're committed to making changes that benefit the overall health of PvP, because we all want to see the Ettenmoors full of players.

There's a tiny issue here. If you keep using a sledgehammer on creeps and keep buffing freeps you won't need balance because the Moors will become a PVE zone. How long does SSG really believe the creeps will accept the nerfs and patiently wait for a change?

Creeps have lived with being the underdog more often than not and found workarounds. Those rare occasions where creeps were overpowered has historically been quickly corrected. The current map and movement situation has no real workaround other than sitting on the rock at Grams and shooting pointy sticks at any freeps that stop by for a visit or not participating in any activity in the Moors.

Personal opinion here: only implementing part of a change aka taking movement away from creeps and leaving freeps with the better movement doesn't really help the situation or make PVP more enjoyable for the creep side. It would be better if as part of taking the maps away you actually improve the ability of creeps to move or decrease the ability of freeps to move and keep everything balanced. Changes for the Moors should leave both sides feeling ok. They should not leave one side cheering and the other side depressed and ready to quit. You need both freeps and creeps for a fun and successful PVP atmosphere. Both sides need to feel they are in good shape and can walk away as winners.

Things like this for good or bad are why many of us are playing other games now as our primary game. I log onto LOTRO a couple of days a week and I actually got talked into buying the expansion by a friend. With this latest change to creeps I very much regret spending the money. On a positive note I only purchased it on one of three accounts and I am not VIP on two of them because things like this make it difficult to justify spending money on a subscription right now.

This is not an insult to any one dev or person. I truly believe this is a management decision to change the direction and focus of the game to something new that has yet to be unveiled. Maybe it is time to let the decision makers know that not everyone outside of the discord community the devs are part of is jumping for joy over the changes. The game would be in better shape if feedback from all sources was considered. Sticking to feedback on just discord or just the forums or just whatever site you choose does not give you a full picture of how the bulk of the player base feels. Taking feedback from freeps or creeps over the other side does not give a true picture on the state of the Moors.

Yes, SSG owns this game. Yes, SSG can make any changes they choose to make. Yes, the player base has the choice of accepting the change directed by SSG or moving on. But.....the player base are the ones who spend the money which gives SSG the resources to do all of this. There are two sides to this system. Maybe consider stopping and listening in more places than one discord before you drop drastic changes?

And lack of any meaningful communication or interaction from SSG continues to be the customer service/support model of choice. For me it is disappointing and frustrating.

[KurysFlame]

Orion and I have been making a lot of changes in the Ettenmoors lately. Some will have greater benefit for creeps, others for freeps. Some will benefit new players more, others veteran players. It's a complicated zone, with lots of different players in it, but we're committed to making changes that benefit the overall health of PvP, because we all want to see the Ettenmoors full of players.

I'm a newer player, from a fairly low intensity server when it comes to pvmp. (The community is great though.) I've been putting in effort to keep tabs on the opinions of veterans, but I'll likely have a slightly different perspective for a while yet. There are many goals devs have linked to recent changes, and have mentioned in plans for the future, that sound quite solid. Heck, even those I disagree with I generally support the intent.*

In the case of maps, on my server I haven't experienced the behavior freeps on Arkenstone seem to take such a large issue with. Though it's quite understandably a problem. However, on servers without much action, maps make it easier to make some form of progress and build toons up to the point of being somewhat useful. And while I'm busy questing, I can keep an eye on OOC for any group activity. (That's groups, usually involving one of two active pvmp freep kins, not zerging solo freeps.) I've heard of plans for something like missions for creeps later. I hope it's a good means of building up characters, though, at least from forums, it seems lots of creeps are unenthusiastic about pve. Also, it would likely mean less interaction in the moors.

It would also be cool if freeps could more easily join the moors, preferably with a parallel means of progressing in non-pvmp parts of the game. (I believe GW2 has something like this?) The community on my server often has (had?) people flipping between freep and creep to keep things balanced. Wish I could help with that, but it's a considerable time investment to build up freeps. (I also understand that on other servers, people flipping sides for other reasons is a problem... Another reason I kinda like my server.) Lots of pve players seem unhappy with any prospect of feeling "forced" to pvp, though that usually seems connected to "best-in-slot" gear. I wish I knew more about this side of thing, but none of my freeps (11 of them) are past level 50. From what little I do know (totally possible I'm way off), it would be nice if all stats for freeps in the moors came from gear and certain things like skills and trait points were all unlocked just for the moors (similar to GW2).

So, yeah. I'm a bit overly focused on the ability to progress new characters. Being an altoholic certainly doesn't help. But I do believe it's vital if we want to "see the Ettenmoors full of players." Really quickly on maps, I believe the recent change is a good direction for pvmp content that is thriving with plenty of action at most times. But getting there is still an issue.

*The one goal I slightly disagree with, and I'm not sure if it's still there, is having freeps generally stronger than creeps, like not allowing creeps to cap certain stats out. The idea of having hoards of creeps facing off against smaller numbers of heroes is cool, but not very conducive to pvp. You won't get the numbers on one side since no one wants to be that outmatched. (It's just the draw of playing as something unique that would pull people in, ironically similar to if a property relied solely on its IP.) Though all things considered, it looks like this is far less a vision than it used to be.

[UselessSmurf]

It's time to consider cutting the map in half, its too damn big as it is. Other than EN and Ark, there is no real justification in having a map that big anymore, if there ever was.

[Neinda]

It's time to consider cutting the map in half, its too damn big as it is. Other than EN and Ark, there is no real justification in having a map that big anymore, if there ever was.

This would be an outstanding idea. There is a lot of dead space between keeps and outposts and probably too many of them. I highly doubt people are going to slow walk all the way to places like Isendeep Mine any more because there is no reason to go there now that there are no maps to earn. Maybe the lag would improve with fewer areas in the Moors. They could keep Grams and GV and throw TA in the middle. TA could be the prize. Maybe add an outpost on each side. With no maps there is no need to do quests and people can't really get all of the quest turn ins anyway these days since they don't drop in a raid.

And f they put things close enough together the creeps could stand on the rock outside of Grams and shoot pointy sticks at the freeps standing on the GV steps and the reverse. Great battles ahead. I am totally annoyed that my lowest rank creep is a BA. I should have leveled that one instead of the others.

[CarenC]

In an effort to continue bringing a measure of parity to movement across the Ettenmoors, we have further adjusted maps to 60 minute cooldowns. Maps to Gramsfoot and Glan Vraig are now on 5 minute cooldowns.


sounds like reduced action/fights. 1 hour colldown is excessive, and then they mess up WL mobilize. So just any idea, if the creeps need to run everywhere, maybe freeps should have to run everywhere also; or just put it back the way it was for 15 years.

[Areyekuwe]

It's time to consider cutting the map in half, its too damn big as it is. Other than EN and Ark, there is no real justification in having a map that big anymore, if there ever was.

I proposed it as a joke just yesterday.

But the way it will go one is they will have to find all the entrances to the map and take it down in steps. So, will take years.

[Areyekuwe]

With no maps there is no need to do quests and people can't really get all of the quest turn ins anyway these days since they don't drop in a raid.

There you go, you are paying attention.

I meet ppl in moors often that say: I want to do quests in TA but it is not ours, can we take it?
-I tell them, just do PVP, all the quests are boring.

But a better idea is to make them join the raid, so there be nothing to do any quests with in the 1st place.
-No disturbances there.

It's the same as idea of reworked stats that have blessing in the mix = net result is decline in stats. But mechanics are so complex that most ppl do not even bother looking at these blessings, they just go into the tent and try to figure which is designated to which class. (It's easy with spiders and wargs, others should say"black arrow go here to lose stats" and so on)

[Neinda]

I proposed it as a joke just yesterday.

But the way it will go one is they will have to find all the entrances to the map and take it down in steps. So, will take years.

They could just close most of it down and reopen just the bridge in Osgiliath. No need for quests or anything there. People can fight for the flag in the middle.

[Pusher]

I'm at a loss. I don't understand why/how this happened? I've played since beta, almost 16 years now, and this might be the worse change ever implemented.

I'm pro small group. I'm pro roaming the map and finding random conflicts, but changing all maps to 1 hour cooldown, having them linked, and changing the constant WL run buff to whatever I just experienced, is way too far in the wrong direction. I'm all for change in the Moors. And honesty, it needs to happen to keep things fresh. We spent years asking for change, any change, even just adding a random tree, but this is a huge change that should have been included with many other changes, not just randomly thrown in with a patch.

PvP should always be the goal over PvE, that goes without saying, but questing in the Moors serves a purpose. It sets you down a predicted path where possible PvP activity could happen. And the randomness of the fights makes it unique every time. In my opinion, that’s the quintessential thing that makes the Moors the Moors. If the logic is to eliminate quests, i.e., maps are now meaningless, so no point in doing quests for those, and the time it would take to move around the map to complete them is now not worth the effort, why does this map even exist in its current form? And I assume Freeps still have mounts, which makes it even more mind boggling.

Are we no longer supposed to turn in/obtain quests daily? Why would I ever venture to Hoarhallow if I'm not doing quests? And even if I have the quest, I'm not spending an extra 20-30 minutes running there and back again. Quests don't give many rewards as it is, but with the rewards, plus the hope of coming across some Freeps along the way, it was worth it. I'm not logging on and spending 30 minutes slowly, randomly, roaming the map with the hopes I see a Freep in the distance. Especially on servers where population in the Moors is an issue.

I don’t understand what the end game is supposed to be with this change. And as it stands now, I don't see an enjoyable path forward.

[Elaelin]

I don’t understand what the end game is supposed to be with this change. And as it stands now, I don't see an enjoyable path forward.

The end game is now Grams/GV camps. The perfect play style for a freep we all know who loves the GV steps LOL. And if the creeps don't own either rez circle walking back will take all evening. Hopefully SSG will shrink the map so walking back is actually worth the time and effort. They could move the rez circles or add a couple rez circles closer to GV and Grams in order to keep activity going when creeps die. Maybe make one PVP server and anyone who enters the Moors ends up in the same server?

I guess this change is why they added that fight arena area a couple of years ago. Preset fight locations. Groups and individuals can plan the times and meet up for prescheduled matches. A Middle Earth version of WWF?

On the plus side, freeps will be camping unused port in spots waiting and hoping some foolish creep wastes their one hour cooldown on that port spot and there won't be any creeps caught in HH doing quests. So to all the freeps cheering and happy about this change, good luck finding creeps now that they no longer have a need to leave Grams and wander about. This change discourages random fights in the Moors on smaller servers even if the creeps someday in the distant future get the ability to run a little bit faster. Earning and obtaining maps pushed the creeps out of Grams to all areas of the map. These changes appear to make the assumption that there are enough people in the Moors at all times of the day that there will be random encounters happening every time someone walks out of Grams or GV.

The changes seem to have been made for one or two specific servers and the rest of us are collateral damage and are not considered in the decision process for changes. Too small to count or be considered. It does not feel as if SSG actually cares about PVP on the smaller servers at all. The changes seem to be designed around bigger servers with a more active PVP presence with no regard for how this will affect the less crowded servers.

Another potential side-efrfect/problem with the no maps change that the devs seemed to miss or ignore is that there will probably be many creeps who transfer to bigger servers because they want to participate in battles and not sit at Grams waiting for freeps to come along to play. What does that do for balance when there are significantly more creeps than freeps on a server like Arkenstone? This should do wonders for lag there and the freeps will truly be at a disadvantage and probably stop coming to the Moors.

The SSG representative implied the maps give the creeps some sort of magical advantage over freeps when the maps have always been an incentive to leave Grams and do quests. The creep maps served as more of an advantage to freeps than anything because the freeps knew where to find creeps and could wait for them to happen along. No maps=no need to do quests=no wandering and porting to the same old standard locations=less random activity in the Moors. Earning maps gave the smaller server creeps a reason to log on during non raid days/times and do things in the Moors. Absolutely no reason to log on and go out to earn maps that serve no useful purpose to the creeps.

This change was made by those who don't really understand trying to get things going and battles happening on a smaller server that only has significant activity on pre planned raid nights. Foolish change if the goal is actually to keep the Moors alive and well on all servers. Taking away creep maps will do absolutely nothing to improve activity and random fights in the Moors. I have not been in the Moors for a few months now and with this mess I don't anticipate ever going back there again.

There are a bunch of great people on Landy. I would suggest the devs leave the big servers and go there for input on changes. The people on both creep and freep side would give you great input on how PVP works on smaller servers. They are very knowledgeable with years of Moors experience.


Not so great battles and not so great times await the Moors. Good luck all.

[gildhur]

The cooldowns were so short that a creep group could map across the zone from grams to TR, capture the keep, and map back to grams in only a few minutes, and then immediately do it again somewhere else. That doesn't allow for any reasonable opposition group to even try to contest the capture.

Why not add a mechanic like the zone-wide announcements when Minas Morgul and Annuminas control points are captured? Except for the Moors make the announcement when front door NPCs go into combat instead of on the final flip.

"Lugazag is under attack by the Free Peoples!"

"Tol Ascarnen is under attack by the Enemy!"

etc...

[Pusher]

Maps often serve to make much of the zone 'dead' space that is simply skipped over. The cooldowns were so short that a creep group could map across the zone from grams to TR, capture the keep, and map back to grams in only a few minutes, and then immediately do it again somewhere else. That doesn't allow for any reasonable opposition group to even try to contest the capture. It also promoted play like logging in and immediately mapping to GTR to join the GV/TR shuffle, without ever crossing open spaces. If that's the case, why even play in a zone with Arador's End, Plains, Hoarhollow, etc.

You're assuming the "dead" space that is being skipped over by creeps has tons of freeps just hanging out in it waiting for fight. Maybe on a couple of the more active servers, but definietly not on Landroval, and it seems like not on other servers as well. I don't see Creep maps essentially being removed from the game as a Freep rallying cry causing a huge influx of Freeps.

Maps and map quests were literally the reason why creeps go to HoarHollow, Arador's End, etc. So you want creeps to go to those areas, but you just removed the only reason why creeps go there???

The main reasons why a creep raid would map across the map and take a keep is usually to either have a rez circle or to break up the action because it's going nowhere. Even with the great and powerful "march" skill and maps, freep rezzes are far more abundant and superior to creeps, and that gave the freeps the advantage in prolonged fights. Removing maps just made that issue 100x worse. No amount of run buffs is fixing that. Creeps lose tons of long battles because everybody's maps are on cooldown, Creeps needed rez circles to survive.

And nobody is coming out to the Moors to mainly PvE. Creeps don't just come out, take all the keeps as fast as possible with maps, and go "HA HA, I won" then logout. If that's a main reason for removing maps, that makes absoluetly no sense.


As a creep, I'm not against removing maps as a long term vision, but maps are too woven into creep function and gameplay that you can't just do it and not implement massive additional changes at the same time.