Developer Diary: The Great Angmar Revamp

[a99barnsey]

and I'd hope that one of the things the revamp would do is not make it 'easier' per se, but do things like get rid of the Drake's Egg fs quest stumbling block to unlock more solo questing. As it is, I was almost out of the level range for those quests in Donnevail when I happened to help out a lower level kinmate on Drake's Egg and found them unlocked.

I would be fine with stuff like that, but when I hear things like:

"Spawn density in certain locations is too great"

it makes me think that is not the case.

[Elfheart]

I'm concerned about this:



I liked the fact that angmar was challenging. It doesn't make sense that you should be able to stroll around angmar just as easily as you do in north downs.

Why is it that every time something is challenging you guys have to nerf it into a joke (*cough* Thief Taker's Bane *cough*).

Thief Taker's Bane was practically impossible until they changed it and it's still pretty darn hard if you ask me. I'm glad Turbine is revising it's content to make it playable for the masses instead of just the hardcore players. Some of us like to be able to complete quests before they become completely trivial.

[whheydt]

While you're revamping Angmar to get rid of elites & normals on the same spawn table, how about doing a bit of the same in the Misty Mountains? Can a normal mob be on the same table with the bears in the North Buinen Source area, please?

[Beanno]

I didn't see any mentions of horse travel here. Though, granted, if the mob density is reduced this will be less of an issue. Getting one-shotted off of your horse five steps after you get on it, every time you can get on one is incredibly annoying.

And yes I agree on the Misty Mountain bears. The southern bears are on the same table as mammoths.

[Krizz]

Outstanding.


Keep up the good work Fellas.

[Aalwein]

The one over-riding thing needed is to provide a reward for questing at 50.

.....

What I propose is that you provide an alternate advancement experience bar requiring a huge amount of experience.

Make finishing a bar take a month for even the hardcore by putting in a "tired" experience penalty to go with the "rested"...if a player gets too much exp in on one of his chars in a 24 hr period his experience on that char slows to a crawl, encouraging the hardcore to play their alts. This way you have direct control over how fast it gets eaten up.

Rewards under alternate advancement should all be permanant improvements to a charactor, but not big ones. Choices on completing a bar could be an increase in a resist, opening a 6th slot for traits (a biggie requiring two bars filled), increase in a stat, adding 5 spots to a backpack, adding 1 to hope (permanantly), and then have a few really nice ability additions that require multiple fillings of the alternate advancement bar.

This would make questing have a purpose again and keep even the hardcore 50s busy for a year or more...without turning everyone into raiders and/or lootwhores or affecting balance by much.

This is a great idea and its added benefit is that lv50s will continue to play in Angmar which will give the new Angmar residents (the low 40s players) someone to fellow with - which tends to be a problem at times in Angmar.

[Dharken]

One of the thigns i would liek to see added to the overall game, and i beleive this touches on what others have said, is a way to progress our characters even after we have capped out at 50. One of the things I've noticed at level 50 is there really isnt much to do (don't kill me yet). YEah we have the rift and the new stuff in trollshaws (which by the way we burned in about a day along with the MM content) so really we are jsut repeating the rift tryign to get everyone their sets from there. But what do we do after that? Yeah there are alts but again this fall into my feeling that I've been there and done that and will jsut get thru it 3x as fast and be back to where i started. ITs great that you are revamping Angmar and it needs it, but I've yet to see mention of anything that is gonna really help in the long run, and by this i mean stuff for level 50 players. Yes we have the RIft but we are burning thru that with ridiculous speed and its getting to the point again where a lot of my friends are starting to dissapear fromt he game unless its a rift night. Reason is there is nothing for us to do now. Its great that you are expanding the middle content, but I can't help but think you too are seeing the drastic decline in the high level players activity. Really all we have is the RIft and thats all we do atm. MOSt of us who want to craft have mastered crafting, others who like tweak have pushed their builds to the limits, and to ignore the end game versatility is gonna hurt you in the long run. You can fiull out the mid game as much as you want but the simple fact is once, you get to 50 your options are severley limited as to waht you can do.

So here is some of what I'd liek to see that would definetley help in the meantime and in the future as far as the in between content times.

1) Stat Tombs - For those of you that played DDO you know what I'm talking about. Basically these are really rare drop items that can permantley increase a selected stat of your character. Make them random, IE you might get a Will Tomb or an AGL TOmb, but make them tradable so you can trade them for the ones you want. But please make them more likely to drop in instances or be rewards for certain quests (IE throw a new quest item in the rift that lets someone begin a quest to go select a tomb of their choice).

2) Talent Trees - Again another reference to DDO. One of the things I loved when it was introduced was the new way they let players specify in their skills by allocating points to boost the effectiveness of certain skills (ie a rogue could dump points into disabling and search and become a full fledged trap monkey or focus on his lockipicking or his stealth ability). This again would let players customize their characters to their playstyle and give all of us a lot to do as i spent literally days in DDO trying new combinations out till i found a setup i liked and worked well for me.

3) Random rewards and repeatable quests. One way to extend the life of content dramatically is with repeatable quests that offer a random reward for completing them. IT would also breath new life in the game by taking those quests we've already done and giving us a reason to do them again. LEt's face it, I like to think that we all like to help our friends complete quests, but giving us incentive to do so would definetley help in the long run. Take all those instances, Barrow Downs, FOrnost, Carn Dum, etc, and add a new quest for each of them that can only be taken once you have completed all the other quests for the instance, and make the reward for the quest random. Have the NPC who gives you the quest have a chest next to him that offers random rewards and set it on a 1 week timer or soemthign. I'm sure you guys have thought of this and have even implemented it in some ways but as it stands now there is no reason for me to go back to BG, go back to Carn Dum, or step foot inside Fornost other than to help a friend out and thus one of the main reasons I never set foot in those places otherwise. And its sad cause they are great ares and its a shame that really you only end up going in ther to help soemone else get their stuff once you have yours. I would gladly run Fornost into the ground, top to bottom, if I thought there was gonna be somethign other than a lucky worm tooth waiting for me at the end.

[Amrathil]

For the love of the Valar, please, please please .... NO MORE KILLER DEER!

Ok, the first time in Evendim I laughed to see the deer teaming up with wolves and men to try and bring me down. But there's a certain lack of high-fantasy heroism when you're being knocked off your horse by deer, over and over and over. Then they invaded the Trollshaws. Now I mutter to myself every time I see the words "Hart" or "Ornery".

A one-off white hart (or something) that we have to try and hunt down? Sure, I'd enjoy that. But a steady diet of charging deer is starting to make me cry. I know there are only so many models to use, but I'd much rather fight goblins, orcs, and trolls again!

[poet19]

any chance of a level cap increase?

[Tieros]

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!

You guys have nailed 95% of the problems that our group has been complaining about in Angmar. The only issue I didn't see mentioned in the notes was beefing up the quest instructions. A lot of the directions for Angmar quests are overly vague, like the lifeless heart-stone one mentioned earlier The worst one, though, has got to be the one where you have to intercept the Angmarim messenger walking along the road. That was a couple days of my life wasted

I'm really looking forward to the changes, and the striking absence of boar (and auroch)

[Thandreil]

Glad Turbines willing to work for some change its good to hear they wont settle for second best.

But keep in mind that Angmar may not be the only region and as always theres many small details that could be improved to make a bi difference with the whole game.

Honestly it feels odd seeming like your the only one in all of Middle Earth making moves to keep Angmar at bay. It might do well with some NPC interactions. Like small scouting parties clashing with a few mobs, no epic fights but just a few small skirmishes, save the epic ones for other regions . I know at least WoW and Guild Wars accomplished something similar and if they can Turbine can!

[LizBeth]

There's some great ideas here. It's also encouraging to see the Devs are reading this thread. I'd like to thank Anwar and Dharken, in particular, for suggestions that, if their ideas (and similar ones) were incorporated into LotRO, these would go a long way in keeping level 50 (maxed level and maxed game content) in the game.

More and more players are completing all the available game content while we see less and less n00bs in the starter areas. Some LotRO players are already in beta versions of games which, no doubt about it, will be serious challenges to LotRO's player base in the very near future.

It's also been posted elsewhere, so I won't beat this to death, but the reality is there is no real character/class customization in this game. Everyone of the same race/sex look pretty much the same. And, while the Traits System is a wonderful thing, each class is pretty much cookie-cutter RE: top equipment/skills/traits. In spite of "month of" relooks, most classes have at least one, many have two, useless Legendary Traits. The Last Class Quests (level 50, available at 45) reflect teal items, but almost all of them pale in comparison to top player crafted/raid gear -- that didn't used to be the case and need a fix.

To keep us interested and playing LotRO, I don't want to see more 12 or 24 player raids, or fellowship quests with useless rewards -- what I want to see is actual content improvements -- (as in solo and small fellowship) and a structure that offers real rewards (in items, skills, stats and some sort of experience) to encourage maxed-out level 50 players to stay with the game.

Lastly, please fix what's broken, and leave what's not broken alone. A great example of this is Dev's seem to always be "tweaking" melee combat with each update. Why? It's irritating as hell.

[DarkAz]

Looks like you guys are on the right track so far, most things you have mentioned were the ones niggling me.
Some Notes:
- The most refreshing area so far has been the new one south of the Ford of Bruinen. There are some interesting quests from the way they are triggered to the way you complete them. Good work...take note.
- Aughaire isn't particularly hidden. I am always expecting orc raids. Although they are probably not getting further than the tasty boar and aurochs (what happens when they go?).
- A few wandering trolls wouldn't go astray and maybe some warg patrols.
- The whole place needs to feel like an occupied territory; more of a 'waiting for war' feel. With some more hampering the enemy quests so even though you are accomplishing relatively small goals you still feel like you are having a large impact on stopping these forces from over-running the north downs.

BTW was good to know what you guys are thinking.

[Ceejay90]

Entering this thread very late and from a lower level viewpoint. Liz_Beth (above) wants tems/Stats of real benefit for the high level players. I am a great believer in Player made items being the best, or at least equal best in games. I believe crafting should be divorced form levelling. Why should I have to level to achieve quests I have to do to skill up a crafter?
Now if the level 50 players could get drops of very rare ingredients, but need a crafter to actually make the item, I think that would be a great move, but to make top level crafting a little easier to achieve divorce it fom any need to level beyond 20 or 25. Skilling up could even be made a little harder, or slower were this done
Don't forget that some of us actually enjoy crafting for others. I think DAOC learned that after making too many drops better that crafted items

[LizBeth]

Regarding crafting, I totally agree with CeeJay.

Those of us who've been around LotRO for a while remember that, not too long ago, quest rewards were, indeed, better than crafted in most cases. Players, particularly crafters, complained and Turbine listened. Today, crafted items are, more often than not, superior (or at least as good) as drops and quest items. A yes, that is a very good thing.

We have to remember that LotRO is less than a year old. Part of the tweaks I alluded to, above, are needed and, I'm confident, will appear in some form soon.

A note about crafted items versus quest reward items and drops -- diversification is in order for all such equipment. For example, there was much hype by Turbine that a recent patch added a lot of new crafting recipes -- technically that's true, but in reality what we got (applying to Tailor profession here) were design variations (Dwarf, Elf, Westernesse, etc.) of the exact same recipes with the exact same stats. So there's really not much in "new" recipes. What would go a long way in truly allowing players to customize their characters would be new and *different* equipment recipes -- this would go a long way in resolving the age-old player complaint that character customization in LotRO leaves us with the ubiquitous "cookie cutter" avatar, which means that "uber" is defined as everyone of the same class and level are confined to basically the same "best" equipment and Traits with very little (some would say no) room for diversification.

The Turbine design team should be leaning *heavily* on the item designers. More really different recipes. More and different (and hopefully useful) quest rewards and drops. Oh and while they're at it, take a look to include rewards most classes can actually use -- too often, particularly for a Loremaster and Burglar, the player completes the quest and gets 20 silver and NPC Vendor Food for a reward. A good time to start implementing this is with the Angmar revision as we're discussing in this thread.

[skunky27]

We've modified some of the text of the L45 Class Quests, but for the most part we've left them as they are; we were particularly conscious of the rage that would be caused if we suddenly versioned those, even with advance warning.

MoL

Dear Dev, I have to respectfully disagree with this approach. I would say there are tons of players in both camps, those who want the class items to be more accessible, and those who want them to be of epic difficulty. No matter whether you keep or change the L45 class quests someone is going to be unhappy. And there are a lot who really want the change (see Carn Dum threads for reference). I am sure you experience this unhappiness on a daily basis, and I won't encourage any dev-bashing here.

Here's my short plea for changing the L45 quests:

There should be a differentiation between "mandatory" or "base" quests, and "extra" or "reward" quests.

If a quest is part of the official class quest line, awarding class skills or other "regular" items, it should be achievable by the large majority of players, including casual players.

If a quest is not part of the official class quest line, for example if it is a regular "optional" quest, or a raid, or PvP, then it can be non-accessible to the majority of players. It can be extremely difficult because of tactical skills needed, or number of players, or amount of time expended to get it finished. The rewards can included all the l337 gear, teal items, piles of gold, or whatever high powered stuff considered to be appropriate rewards for the time, energy , and player skill level needed to complete the quests.

This satisfies both camps to some extent.

While clearly I am in the "make things accessible" camp, I do respect and understand the "challenge us!" camp. My minstrel will never get a set of silver voice gear. But I'm not willing or able to spend the time and energy to get it. I'm perfectly fine with rewarding those that do with uber-gear. I just want to be able to get through the class quests, and to some extent the story-line epic quests to get my character's class skills and traits.

The Thief-taker's bane quest was discussed above. Thief-Taker's Bane was not required by any story-line, epic or class quest. It was IMHO "optional". I struggled with the original (difficult) version and eventually completed it. I actually liked it, although it frustrated me sometimes. But the whole time I worked on it, I knew if I wanted to I could leave it and not be denied anything that really mattered to me.

I hope you will consider removing the class quest items from places like Carn Dum and Uru, and instead putting uber-gear in its place. Keep those places challenging for those that have a large guild and tons of time. Make more challenging places for them. But please put the class quest items at the end of a more accessible quest chain. It doesn't have to be easy. It just needs to be more accessible than what it is now. As it is now, I don't think I will be able to get my last L45 items anywhere but the AH. And to me, that's a design flaw.

Thanks for listening!

[Eleazaros]

Dear Dev, I have to respectfully disagree with this approach. I would say there are tons of players in both camps, those who want the class items to be more accessible, and those who want them to be of epic difficulty. No matter whether you keep or change the L45 class quests someone is going to be unhappy. And there are a lot who really want the change (see Carn Dum threads for reference). I am sure you experience this unhappiness on a daily basis, and I won't encourage any dev-bashing here.

Here's my short plea for changing the L45 quests:

There should be a differentiation between "mandatory" or "base" quests, and "extra" or "reward" quests.

If a quest is part of the official class quest line, awarding class skills or other "regular" items, it should be achievable by the large majority of players, including casual players.

If a quest is not part of the official class quest line, for example if it is a regular "optional" quest, or a raid, or PvP, then it can be non-accessible to the majority of players. It can be extremely difficult because of tactical skills needed, or number of players, or amount of time expended to get it finished. The rewards can included all the l337 gear, teal items, piles of gold, or whatever high powered stuff considered to be appropriate rewards for the time, energy , and player skill level needed to complete the quests.

This satisfies both camps to some extent.

While clearly I am in the "make things accessible" camp, I do respect and understand the "challenge us!" camp. My minstrel will never get a set of silver voice gear. But I'm not willing or able to spend the time and energy to get it. I'm perfectly fine with rewarding those that do with uber-gear. I just want to be able to get through the class quests, and to some extent the story-line epic quests to get my character's class skills and traits.

The Thief-taker's bane quest was discussed above. Thief-Taker's Bane was not required by any story-line, epic or class quest. It was IMHO "optional". I struggled with the original (difficult) version and eventually completed it. I actually liked it, although it frustrated me sometimes. But the whole time I worked on it, I knew if I wanted to I could leave it and not be denied anything that really mattered to me.

I hope you will consider removing the class quest items from places like Carn Dum and Uru, and instead putting uber-gear in its place. Keep those places challenging for those that have a large guild and tons of time. Make more challenging places for them. But please put the class quest items at the end of a more accessible quest chain. It doesn't have to be easy. It just needs to be more accessible than what it is now. As it is now, I don't think I will be able to get my last L45 items anywhere but the AH. And to me, that's a design flaw.

Thanks for listening!

Nice post.

The single biggest change I'd like to see for tough encounters is increased coin drops from bosses. Such tough encounters shouldn't drive folks to the poor house and such encounters tend to use up a lot of consumables along with repairs.

Each boss should drop enough coin to actually MAKE gold for those participating -- if they were soloing, they could make x amount... They SHOULD be able to make the same when participating in difficult GROUP activities versus all by themselves and they don't.

If you think they do, try asking your user community how they go about making coin to AFFORD raiding and groups. You'll discover it is accomplished while they are soloing. Playing a multi-user game by yourself so you can afford to group with others? That, to me, is wrong. The runs should at least make them as much as they could make while soloing/crafting. Such 'income potential' would provide folks some kind of incentive to group and raid more in the game. It is, after all, a massive multi-user game and most complaints about getting groups is folks don't like to group -- why? It COSTS to do groups whereas soloing gains you more rewards.

That is what I see as needing a major change. Encourage groups and raids more. Loot drop quality and the like? Well raiding happens anyway, just add more 'purchase power' for those who do group work versus soloing all the time.

[Proator]

awsome i am glad for the revamp, Angmar should be evil very evil, pigs dont belong there. Should have some orcs preparing an assault on augaire or other towns, that we can participate in defending. They should also be riding war elephants and have catapaults. Keep up the great work.

[Balor]

Angmar update/revamp long awaited and thank you much.

I have purposely put my last two sub 50 alts on a levelling, xp hunting hold and am going back working area deeds for trait growth while I wait for book 12.

One comment re the lvl 45 class quests. Like many of us (I think) It is not always easy for me to find a group that is going to Gorth. I am going to have to make that slog eventually with all 5 of me. I would like to see a way that those of us who tend to SOLO more than group, could complete these.
Joining a random group that is forming up may or may not be a good experience. While I suspect many of the 'greed' players are no longer around, it really does spoil the group thing to have somone roll a 'need' on every item.

Once again, Thanks Devs for seeing a problem and working to fix it.

P.S. And yes, there are too many durned Aurochs in the Bruinen sources.

[LizBeth]

what sux here is the last post was January 4th.

Anyway, it's not likely anything huge will come from the Angmar revamp. I am not holding my breath.

Lets get the level cap lifted.

With a few 50's, I don't see Turbine doing anything else except pushing us to Warhammer &/or Age of Conan.

[auximenes]

LizBeth, Dev Diaries are not usually running conversations with the Devs. They are a teaser of things to come.

BTW, have you checked out the changes on the Roheryn server? The only way you're going to know how the changes really are, is by doing that, or waiting until the changes hit Live, which should be soon.

[Yaksha42]

With a few 50's, I don't see Turbine doing anything else except pushing us to Warhammer &/or Age of Conan.

The level capped probably won't be raised until the first paid expansion, I wouldn't expect that until late this year at the earliest.

[Swiftbow]

These changes look Awesome!!! Can't wait to get my wife's lil Guardian up to snuff there soon.

Thanks again for listening to player feedback in addition to having the good sense to revisit things and replay them for yourselves all over again when the dust settles. WTG!!

God I love this game!

/waves at Patience...haven't seen you in a while in game snagging Spammers...I'm betting you are even busier these days but drop by and send me a hello

SwiftBow

[Lobelia]

Fantastic! Such a great job done. I love this game & try to improve by still turning any /bug I find or reporting the gold/service spammers that we all abhor so much.