Dev Diary Feedback: Champion Advancement Beyond Level 50!

[olagaton]

The additions and changes look promising, but like others, I will have to reserve judgment until I can actually experience them myself, in the environments I normally find myself. Previous changes and additions to the champion class also looked promising, until we got a chance to play with the live versions and realized otherwise. I'm hoping I won't need to roll a Warden, because I hate leveling characters up.

[DYMongoose]

Sorry DYMongoose, but if we're going to play "let's make the class system fit the story" I'm going to want to step in for a post:

Aragorn is too stealthy to be a captain and too good at tracking.

Boromir uses horns, and can fight with the same weapon regardless of whether a shield is equipped.

Gimli never dual-wields. His fighting style is more effective without dual-wielding, in spite of the champion He wields an axe, often two-handed, and can fight on even if he is wounded.

Legolas doesn't dual-wield, either. That's a movie theme. He wields a knife in the books -- and he does it well.

Frodo knows Gildor's words of power and is pretty knowledgable, but he doesn't play any instrument I'm aware of.

Sam never used a shield and probably never needed to.

Merry was a commoner (see the commoner suggestion thread) and became a knight of Rohan during the War of the Ring.

Pippin is also a commoner but he becomes a knight of Gondor (less horse skills, but longer history) during the War of the Ring.

Gandalf the Grey is a Wizard. Loremasters, according to Berephon, do not use magic. Why they need staves to use their skills is beyond me -- probably two conflicting directions at work on the class, and I'd have preferred the less magical (no staff) one instead of the current mess.

Elrond is a Loremaster -- says so in the books. But he was probably smart enough to wear armour and use a real weapon.

Bilbo is a Burglar, though probably with more versatile skills.

Galadriel is yet another example of why the class system has its flaws.

Eomir is a Knight.

Faramir is a Ranger. His title is that of captain, but he can do things a captain can't do.

Arwen is Elrond's daughter. She doesn't take part in the conflict, but that's probably because she could do more outside of battle than in it.

Eowen is a hero. Courage can accomplish anything if it's of her calibre.

I love the description of Denethor. That is all.

/slaphead

You'd be absolutely right, if it weren't for my first sentence: "My take per the movies (as I've only read through Fellowship so far) and assuming only 1 class per character:"

[Jsmooth73]

I am sorry if this has been said somewhere or if missed it but I have question. First though, I want to explain what I think I know, so any of you can correct me if I am incorrect in my knowledge.

1. Each class is going to have a choice of three trait sets, meaning that if you spec a certain number of traits then you gain additional bonuses to your class for using certain skills that correspond with those traits. Thus, if a champion were to spec the "bezerker" line, he would gain bonuses using the strike skills and an overall bonus to pip generation while in fervor.

2. There will be around 8 traits that can be specced for a champion. This exact number may be off but it is more than what we have now.

3. Now here is my question. Does a champion have to use every trait in a certain line to gain the bonuses, or does a champion have to use say 5 out of 8 traits in a line to gain the same bonuses? I haven't found a specific answer to this.

Another question I have is how many traits are there in a specific line? I hope there are only 5 to 6 traits in a line and we have up to 8 trait slots, which would allow us some flexibilty to keep some favorite traits that may be out of line. But if there are 8 traits in a specific set and it uses all of our traits in that line to gain bonuses, then I think the trait sets may pigeon hole us too much. If classes can't trait at least one or two traits outside of their main specific trait line and still gain full bonuses of that line, then I urge the developers to change it so that we have a little flexibility in how we set up our characters.

Here is an example that maybe better explains my point. I decide to go the "bezerker" line and I want to gain all of its bonuses; however, by doing so I can't use heavy shields. Then I get into a group and the situation arises where I feel I need to pull out a shield for survivability/or I need to tank something, and yet I can't. I think this would just hamper me and reduce my overall effectiveness. However, if I only had to trait 5 out of 8 traits in the bezerker line to gain its bonuses, and I could still trait heavy shields, then I could focus on being a great single target killer and yet also have some flexibilty for the group. Graalx2 could you clear up this matter on the trait sets or could someone who knows point me to where I can better understand how it works.

[SaintBass]

3. Now here is my question. Does a champion have to use every trait in a certain line to gain the bonuses, or does a champion have to use say 5 out of 8 traits in a line to gain the same bonuses? I haven't found a specific answer to this.

Another question I have is how many traits are there in a specific line? I hope there are only 5 to 6 traits in a line and we have up to 8 trait slots, which would allow us some flexibilty to keep some favorite traits that may be out of line. But if there are 8 traits in a specific set and it uses all of our traits in that line to gain bonuses, then I think the trait sets may pigeon hole us too much. If classes can't trait at least one or two traits outside of their main specific trait line and still gain full bonuses of that line, then I urge the developers to change it so that we have a little flexibility in how we set up our characters.

Here is an example that maybe better explains my point. I decide to go the "bezerker" line and I want to gain all of its bonuses; however, by doing so I can't use heavy shields. Then I get into a group and the situation arises where I feel I need to pull out a shield for survivability/or I need to tank something, and yet I can't. I think this would just hamper me and reduce my overall effectiveness. However, if I only had to trait 5 out of 8 traits in the bezerker line to gain its bonuses, and I could still trait heavy shields, then I could focus on being a great single target killer and yet also have some flexibilty for the group. Graalx2 could you clear up this matter on the trait sets or could someone who knows point me to where I can better understand how it works.

I believe that you will find the answer to your questions here:

I've seen a number of questions on the basics of Trait Sets, so I thought I'd give a quick explanation of the system. I'm posting this in a couple of places so folks have a good chance of getting the information!

Trait Sets are a lot like Equipment Sets. You get bonuses for slotting multiple traits in the set. In Moria, we've taken all the class traits of each class and grouped them into three sets of 8, in the process adding new traits which you can earn. Each set has bonuses for 2, 3, 4, and 5 traits in the set slotted. The bonuses vary, but center on the theme of the set. The 5th set bonus allows you to slot a special legendary trait, which upgrades one of your new capstone skills into a legendary skill aligned with the focus of the set.

Along with organizing traits into sets and doing some really cool upgrades to the UI and feedback around that, we've added two new Class trait slots and one new Legendary trait slot.

You could slot 5 of one and 2 of another, allowing you to get the Legendary for one. Alternately, you could adopt a hybrid approach and slot 4 of one set and 3 of another getting some of the bonuses from each set. You could slot 2, 2, and 3... you get the idea. Also remember that you will get a third legendary slot and you could choose to put another of your original four Legendaries into the slot if you don't want to go with one of the 5-set bonus Legendaries.

So, the summary:
* Trait Sets are a lot like Equipment Sets
* Each class will have 3 trait sets of 8 traits each, organized around a theme
* There are bonuses for slotting 2, 3, 4, or 5 traits in a set
* Slotting the 5th trait allows you to slot a legendary that upgrades the set's capstone skill
* Each class will have a total of 7 Class trait slots and 3 Legendary trait slots
* Focused and hybrid builds are both viable options

Hopefully that helps outline the general shape of the system... I think that when you get to see it and play with it you'll see even more of the flexibility and specialization it offers.

Long story short, you can go with a pure build or mix and match for all three 2/5 Trait Set Bonuses and anywhere in between. Slotting 5 from one trait set will allow you to slot the legendary skill related to the trait set and still have room for a 2/5 set bonus on top of your 5/5 set bonus. Basically, you can decide what your primary, secondary and tertiary roles are based on how you play the class. It seems very promising for DPS classes and looks a little tricky for the other classes. I look at it as extra gear sets that don't take up inventory space, have no impact on whatever gear set(s) you may be using and only cost a bit of coin to equip in addition to the standard benefits of class traits.

[Jsmooth73]

@Saint Bass Thank you very much for posting that. I am just coming back, and I have missed some of the earlier posts. This alleviates many of my concerns, and I am eagerly looking forward to seeing the specific bonuses each line gives.

Devs, this looks like a great system.

[Amoryn]

So runes have been mentioned as a legendary item available to champs. My question is what will the others be? (and this question holds for all the other classes as well) So now back to champs, we have 6 slots that can be filled with legendary items, what will we be putting in them? Main hand 1h weapon, 2h weapon, bow, rune? That's only 4. Will there be legendary offhand weapons? I'd hope so, otherwise I'd assume 1 legendary 2h weapon will pwn a legendary/ordinary DW combination. Also, might legendary bows all be hunter only? So what will we typically have in those 6 legendary slots, 1 rune and 5 main hand weapons? Curious as to how this will all work.

[DYMongoose]

I may be wrong, but I think armor can potentially be legendary as well.

[grndmasta]

Sorry DYMongoose, but if we're going to play "let's make the class system fit the story" I'm going to want to step in for a post:

Aragorn is too stealthy to be a captain and too good at tracking.

Boromir uses horns, and can fight with the same weapon regardless of whether a shield is equipped.

Gimli never dual-wields. His fighting style is more effective without dual-wielding, in spite of the champion He wields an axe, often two-handed, and can fight on even if he is wounded.

Legolas doesn't dual-wield, either. That's a movie theme. He wields a knife in the books -- and he does it well.

Frodo knows Gildor's words of power and is pretty knowledgable, but he doesn't play any instrument I'm aware of.

Sam never used a shield and probably never needed to.

Merry was a commoner (see the commoner suggestion thread) and became a knight of Rohan during the War of the Ring.

Pippin is also a commoner but he becomes a knight of Gondor (less horse skills, but longer history) during the War of the Ring.

Gandalf the Grey is a Wizard. Loremasters, according to Berephon, do not use magic. Why they need staves to use their skills is beyond me -- probably two conflicting directions at work on the class, and I'd have preferred the less magical (no staff) one instead of the current mess.

Elrond is a Loremaster -- says so in the books. But he was probably smart enough to wear armour and use a real weapon.

Bilbo is a Burglar, though probably with more versatile skills.

Galadriel is yet another example of why the class system has its flaws.

Eomir is a Knight.

Faramir is a Ranger. His title is that of captain, but he can do things a captain can't do.

Arwen is Elrond's daughter. She doesn't take part in the conflict, but that's probably because she could do more outside of battle than in it.

Eowen is a hero. Courage can accomplish anything if it's of her calibre.

I love the description of Denethor. That is all.

ok seriously? he said he was describing the ppl based on the movie and turning them into one of the classes for LOTRO. There is no hero, knight, wizard, commoner, or whatever else you had. And yes, im sure he realizes that they arent going to exactly match the class, but that was just the classthat he felt the character was mostly related to.

Also, to all the people complaining about stances. Theres a reason they all do what they do, fervour is meant let you do lots of damage, and icpr so that you have power to do all this damage. Ardour is giving you power at the expense of half your bpe. If you changed either of these stances to having full/better bpe as i have seen many posts about (mostly ardour) the class would be overpowered. Everybody keeps saying they want a "neutral" stance. just turn ur stance off if ur taking damage and you dont want to use glory. ya it drains your power fast, but thats because you probably have pretty much no icpr from items, and little fate/will. If u had a min with no icpr equipment and as much fate/will as a champ they would have no power in a very small amount of time. so what do they do? complain that they need a "power" stance? no they equip gear that will let them regen power. Champs can do this also if they really wanted to, ive seen some decent builds to attempt it.

They cant just give champs a stance with amazing icpr so they dont run out of power ever, give them a huge damage boost, and keep the same bpe that would just be way overpowered, and yes ive seen some post that they dont want ALL of that, just most...well thats pretty much the same thing. not completely overpowered, but still overpowered.

/rant

[RogueAssassin102]

Man the champ forums are just like the Silverlode forums. /sigh

[Farnik]

Wow... I like these trait sets.

And I may actually have to buy my "use Runes" skill for the first time! /gasp
I'm glad I can use them without giving up ranged attacks.

[Shadowjak101]

I'm so happy they are replacing savage strikes! In my mind that ability is way too slow and low damaging!

[Merlin]

As long as champions cannot use legendary weapons in their off hand like wardens they must be considered nerfed. They cannot compete with the warden in battle. Hopefully the devs will soon realize this and and upgrade the champs offhand weapon to legendary so they have balanced attributes with other classes.

[Vormaerin]

NO ONE can use off hand legendary weapons. Everyone gets a legendary item and a main hand legendary weapon. No one is dual wielding legendaries. Not even guardians, since Shields can't be legendary.

[PunkShocker]

I played a Champ in the beta. Love the new stuff. Didn't get far enough to try everything, but just wait till you see Feral Strikes. Smokin!

[Reodred14]

ahh..the memories..

Arise from the dead!