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[douglasburns]

Good points.

I have always maintained there is a serious flaw in LOTRO's development, particualrly as it concerns instances. These never should have been brought to Live. But they were and labelled exploits.

To me, exploits is not something that should be debated. They are mandated by the developers. It's their game, and if they think it is an exploit, then that's what it is. It is up to us players to maintain integrity - both in the spaces and ourselves intrinsically.

If they think it is an exploit, then they should fix it. If they do not alter something (Undunion for 3+ years), I am going to consider it "as intended".

When common orcs break LoS with me and make me miss, are the orcs "cheating"? I think not. Likewise the opposite is true.

The problem is there is a fine line between clever tactics and cheating. In my mind, circumventing boss skills (such as Undunion) is not clever tactics, but cheating. Why is it cheating and not clever tactics? I think it is because you have found a way to take something complex and making it absolutely trivial. If, for example, LOSing attacks and activating the appropiate item had the same level of sophsication and execution, then it is clever tactics.

But this is not the case. You sit at the door, run to the side, and the attack is negated. It is a much simpler mental process. 'See words, move to the side.' As opposed to 'tell X to activate Y then remove debuff Z'.

The latter has so much more going on; and the former arguably trivializes the difficulty Turbine put in. Thus an exploit.

I do not agree with this. Part of the difficulty is figuring out the ways in which he can be defeated.

The difference between clever tactics and cheating, is more along the lines of "would this make sense if this fight was real"? The throne trick is blatant exploiting bugging out the boss in plain sight of the player, and suprise! Turbine fixed it. Undunion has not been touched in 3+years, and ducking around a corner actually makes sense in this case.

This issue has never been about forcing linear boss strats on anyone - a very common misconception of the side I argue on. It is about ensuring that exploits do not make something complex trivial. When people can effectively exploit - the tactics of which is infinitely simpler than the proper execution - then it lessens the value of the accomplishment (the kill and loot).

If you want clever tactics - which you seem to want - there are other ways to go about it. In other words, come up with strats that maintain the sophiscation and complexity of the intended way. Let's take a look at the Mistress fight, when the swarms of Orcs come out. I'm aware of two strategies: ball up then spread or spread from the start. In each situation the Orcs remain the same in number and they all must be killed. But the way in which they are accomplished are different; spread out or ball up and run. Which strategy is 'easier' is entirely dependent on your groups preference. Are you better at being balled up for AOE or situationally aware to spread out? How you answer this dictates the strategy. The intended complexity and sophication remains the same in both circumstances because a) healers must keep everyone alive and b) the orcs must die. In other words, you must deal with all the elements of the fight. Compared to exploits - like Undunion - that do not require you to deal with some mechanics. That's trivializing, not clever tactics.

Exploits are bad. They put us into bad habits, produce worse players, and devalue everything gained from where they occur. They should not occur in the first place, but they do, and, as players, we must deal with them.

Personally, I prefer to maintain the integrity of the players and game rather than gut it completely.

I agree, Turbine should focus more on fights that are less predictible, and dont rely on "one shot events" that the boss can wipe you with. In my opinion these sorts of fights are far more predictible and way "easier". It also bothers me how with rad gear gating they force all characters to basically have the same gear. predictible and boring.

Predictable fights also produce "bad" players. The same rinse and repeat formula fights, don't encourage players to think on their feet, but rather memorize a preset sequence of garunteed events.

Exploits need to be fixed, if indeed Turbine actually think something is an exploit. Otherwise I don't want to hear any whining about it.

[Magian]

If they think it is an exploit, then they should fix it. If they do not alter something (Undunion for 3+ years), I am going to consider it "as intended".

I agree with your first point. I don't agree with your second. I do not see the logical connection in this case. Undunion could have been left alone because it is far down the development priority. It is very old content at this point that few run. The lack of fixing it could be because it is such a low priority item.

If Barad Gularan is part of the scalable dungeons, and that exploit is not fixed, I will consent that it is intended behaviour.

When common orcs break LoS with me and make me miss, are the orcs "cheating"? I think not. Likewise the opposite is true.

You are right. It is not cheating. But that is only because - unlike Undunion - there is not (in my mind) a clear way to defeat him that Turbine wants you to do. That's the difference.

I do not agree with this. Part of the difficulty is figuring out the ways in which he can be defeated.

The difference between clever tactics and cheating, is more along the lines of "would this make sense if this fight was real"? The throne trick is blatant exploiting bugging out the boss in plain sight of the player, and suprise! Turbine fixed it. Undunion has not been touched in 3+years, and ducking around a corner actually makes sense in this case.

If we want to use this logic I present to you Thaurlach. You used to be able to LOS his jumps in the Everseer room. Turbine stopped that very quickly. In this case it is a perfect example of "this would make sense if it is real." After all, if you hide behind a pillar it will absorb the shockwaves that are meant to damage you.

But it got fixed.

I think LOS exploits are clever tactics if and only if none of the LOS exploits got fixed. This is not the case.

I agree, Turbine should focus more on fights that are less predictible, and dont rely on "one shot events" that the boss can wipe you with. In my opinion these sorts of fights are far more predictible and way "easier". It also bothers me how with rad gear gating they force all characters to basically have the same gear. predictible and boring.

Predictable fights also produce "bad" players. The same rinse and repeat formula fights, don't encourage players to think on their feet, but rather memorize a preset sequence of garunteed events.

Exploits need to be fixed, if indeed Turbine actually think something is an exploit. Otherwise I don't want to hear any whining about it.

I have no qualms with the above. I think you hit the nail on the head.

[GregJL]

Bazooka is lore breaking.

The weapon or the gum?