Removing Radiance?

[doug01]

A few dozen runs of SH and you can run BG. SH EM teaches what? Makes you a better player how? You're now prepared for BG because you ran SH EM umpteen times to get 120rad?

Its quit clear radiance did nothing to prepare anyone for anything.

Now since you could be a total failure at your class and still get enough radaince to run the hardest raid in the game this should lead to the huge influx of QQ threads for nerfs. So let look at the the changes to BG over the last year.

Fixed the randomness of the LT eyes (oh wait, even the elite riding kins were noting it was stupid). Umm..ahhh..can't think of much else. IE No QQ threads, or not enough to lead the nerf of the raid. Noobs get into BG, noobs die, no nerfs.

Anyone who throws out the concept of undergeared/unskilled players complaining about difficulty will bring about a nerf to the raid has no evidence of this, but there is mounts of it to the contrary. ..Hey they should run around naked saying the sky is falling. Well until they get sunburned.

[tsathogga]

While I don't really expect you to read 21 pages of this nonsense, try at least skimming the last 5 or so... all this has already been talked about ad nauseum.

-Radiance does not equal challenge.
-Grinding radiance makes people 'bored out of their mind'; repeating the same dull content makes people 'bored out of their mind'; the radiance system forces this to happen by its very nature.
-Gating is not required for a good end game. See The Rift.
-GS isn't a 'challenge'. GS isn't 'end game'. People run GS because it's fast and it's easy, it still has some reasonably nice loot drops, and it gets them a reasonably nice armour set - stat-wise not because of radiance. There are easier and faster ways to get more radiance than GS.

Radiance used t0 = challenge when you actually had to run the instances to get the gear. 16th Hall and DD taught you a lot about running tough instances. It prepared you for the watcher. You asked about QQ nerfs? I contend that the whole grab coins by running GS 25x to get 6 radiance was a QQ nerf. Watcher 2.0 was nerfed because people complained it was too hard as well. That being said, watcher 1.0 was far too easy, so the adjustment to 3.0 may have been wise.

Currently, radiance is not really even a gate. Its just bloody easy to get up to 100 radiance without really any skill (15/10/10 from Moria and 75 from Mirkwood).

[Comma44]

So let look at the the changes to BG over the last year.

Fixed the randomness of the LT eyes (oh wait, even the elite riding kins were noting it was stupid). Umm..ahhh..can't think of much else. IE No QQ threads, or not enough to lead the nerf of the raid. Noobs get into BG, noobs die, no nerfs.

Did you not read the forums when BG was first out, I think all of that QQ has been trimmed off of the threads by now, but there was PLENTY of QQ to be had. And there have been numerous nerfs to BG, please don't misrepresent the facts.
Can't think of much else? Let's see, here's what I can think of off the top of my head.
1. No yellow eye + fear. Fair enough, way too random, leads to wipes out of a player's control.
2. Bird breath hits for ~1k now. Ezmode.
3. Purple eye used to hit for 7ish k, now hits for 1k, very little penalty for being too slow with a purple eye. Ezmode.
4. LMs can firelore every single mob in the instance, so immediately every mob does 30% less melee damage. Ezmode.
5. LMs can also frost lore every single mob in the instance, so 20% off all tactical attacks. Ezmode.
6. There is now a small amount of power regen in the LT fight.
7. The bird does not stun targets in his melee range when he stops, thus increasing dps on the bird, decreasing puddles.
8. The bird only chases yellow eyes, thus not requiring extra coordination between the person with bird agro and person with yellow eye.

Some of these changes are indeed small, but they have all been made in an effort to make the raid easier. At this point, over a year into BG being live, I don't particularly care as it's on farm mode anyway. But I do remember all the QQ that plagued the threads, and now looking at all the changes I just thought of, you have to wonder why those changes were made.

Although I agree that farming SH EM does not TEACH you all that much about your class perse. If you are unwilling to grind out 120 rad, which shouldn't take that long even for casual players, then how on earth do you plan on grinding your way through BG - doing hours worth of trash and hours worth of wipes, if 120 rad is too much grind? Regardless, we really don't know what will happen with this new raid. I hope that it will be sufficiently difficult so as to provide a challenge, and I hope that this level of difficulty will persist regardless of the undergeared players complaining that they are getting 1 shotted in their random PUG that is playing together for the first time.

Another question is, if they're not rewarding us with radiance gear which was an intrinsic reward within itself as it made the raid easier as you geared out your group, what are they going to offer us? Most end game characters are soft capped for stats, so I'm personally wondering what they can offer me that will be better than what I've already got? I guess they're going to have to come up with some very creative and OP set bonuses.

However, I think the main question of this discussion is where do you draw the line between content accessibility for all and maintaining a challenge for those that seek it. I'm quite curious to see how Turbine answers that question and hopeful that they will manage to do it in a balanced manner.

[dhatcher1]

Sapience just confirmed raidiance will be gone in the next update. We will see the dev diaries for the next update starting in a couple weeks.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...10#post5183610

[myfreezr2]

1. No yellow eye + fear. Fair enough, way too random, leads to wipes out of a player's control.
2. Bird breath hits for ~1k now. Ezmode.
3. Purple eye used to hit for 7ish k, now hits for 1k, very little penalty for being too slow with a purple eye. Ezmode.
4. LMs can firelore every single mob in the instance, so immediately every mob does 30% less melee damage. Ezmode.
5. LMs can also frost lore every single mob in the instance, so 20% off all tactical attacks. Ezmode.
6. There is now a small amount of power regen in the LT fight.
7. The bird does not stun targets in his melee range when he stops, thus increasing dps on the bird, decreasing puddles.
8. The bird only chases yellow eyes, thus not requiring extra coordination between the person with bird agro and person with yellow eye.

1. No comment
2. That was how it was intended originally
3. Purple eye was bugged; it still doesn't work the way it was supposed to, at least it wasn't when I last ran the instance
4 That was a BUFF to lms, not a nerf to the instance
5. See 4
6. Food was nerfed; it now provides icpr instead of x amount of power every 30 secs
7. No comment
8. No comment

[purpleCow876]

Dark Delving. People have whined about how hard that was since day one. Has it been nerfed? Nope.
Death From Below. There's a 20-some page thread half full of people whining about how it's too hard (and the other half explaining how to do it). Has it been changed at all? Nope.

Well they kind of did. I mean, now you can just do GS over and over. And even though some other 6-mans are fun as well, it is like pulling teeth to get anyone to do them, because they prefer to get the most gains with the least amount of effort, thus running GS over and over and over.

Everyone says they want the grind removed. But it seems when the grind is presented as an easier alternative to doing something challenging (GS vs DD) the majority of players seem to choose the grind route; although they are as equally likely to complain about the grind....

Before the "medallions" system, the idea of radiance gating was to get players to do the different instances at least once to get the required pieces.

It is when they went to the medallion barter system that getting radiance became a "grind". Before, it was "running a few different instances a few times". Now its running GS or SH over and over and over.

Personally, I'm not sure if gating is the answer though. Possibly the answer is to provide unique (different) but equal rewards for doing the different instanced.

I personally liked the idea of getting "a piece" from each of several different instances. But at the same time I was in a smaller kin, and it seems that DN raids were always getting called off by being a person or two short, even though we had the appropriate class online, just without the proper rad.

So although I'd like to see rad removed, I would hope for some incentive to do the different content. And yes, you can say that "doing the content itself" is incentive enough, unfortunately in practice, in order to get enough people interested in doing content (especially more than once) there has to be some sort of "reward".

[SaintBass]

Before the "medallions" system, the idea of radiance gating was to get players to do the different instances at least once to get the required pieces.

It is when they went to the medallion barter system that getting radiance became a "grind". Before, it was "running a few different instances a few times". Now its running GS or SH over and over and over.

I'm just gonna have to stop you right there. It was more than running each instance "a few times." I got all the radiance necessary to do the watcher within a month of Moria launch and even with a static group, it was a matter of completing the hard mode of each instance once per person... and yes Dark Delving was hard. 16th hall was LONG, Fil Gashan HM was pretty obtuse. Best case scenario, you were looking at 36 hours of time spent in instances with a static group to get those people enough radiance to do the watcher. It was a nightmare for those that had to PuG since the rule of PuGs is that everyone pretty much gets to roll on anything so chances are that the person that won the roll would be dropping group and start to LFF for the "next" instance... not to mention instances of that happening within kinships as well.

The first batch of people who got their radiance were so sick and tired of those instances that it was like pulling teeth to get anyone to go back in there since there was virtually NO incentive for them to do so. I can think of three people off the top of my head that REFUSE to log into their minstrel for group play because of that era.

Now that being said, I completely agree with the notion that there should be progression through an instance cluster but the sad simple fact of the matter is that isn't how Moria launched, not to mention the fact that the Gurvand fight was broken for quite some time. I don't have any problems with a simple completion gate for an instance cluster not unlike how Helegrod is currently structured, but lets not pretend that the Moria instances were ever anything other than an unmitigated grind where once you got your piece for that instance there was never a reason for you to go back in there.

[redviolin06]

Not to mention the fact that because some of the instances were so difficult, almost no one would be willing to run them. Part of the reason they switched to the barter system. And then the GS grind began.

I have yet to set foot in the 16th hall. No one wants to run it to this day. Heck if I know what I'm going to do when I need to go in there for one of my alt's class quests.

The whole system was designed poorly. Good riddance.

[dhatcher1]

I PuGed DD 16 successful times before I got the helm and at least 3 times that many abject failures. It didnt do much to make me a better player other building a friends list of other competent players to PuG with. I took a several month break from the game because I could not face going through that process again with alts.

The whole system was designed poorly. Good riddance.

The problem is that it wasnt replaced by anything that makes sense. Since Moria's release, the endgame rewards systems have all been complete gibberish. There is no distinction of time and difficulty. You can get a reward as a random drop off of a junk mob (LI with good legacies) that is better than anything you can get from a long, hard instance.

[doug01]

Did you not read the forums when BG was first out, I think all of that QQ has been trimmed off of the threads by now, but there was PLENTY of QQ to be had. And there have been numerous nerfs to BG, please don't misrepresent the facts.
Can't think of much else? Let's see, here's what I can think of off the top of my head.
1. No yellow eye + fear. Fair enough, way too random, leads to wipes out of a player's control.
2. Bird breath hits for ~1k now. Ezmode.
3. Purple eye used to hit for 7ish k, now hits for 1k, very little penalty for being too slow with a purple eye. Ezmode.
4. LMs can firelore every single mob in the instance, so immediately every mob does 30% less melee damage. Ezmode.
5. LMs can also frost lore every single mob in the instance, so 20% off all tactical attacks. Ezmode.
6. There is now a small amount of power regen in the LT fight.
7. The bird does not stun targets in his melee range when he stops, thus increasing dps on the bird, decreasing puddles.
8. The bird only chases yellow eyes, thus not requiring extra coordination between the person with bird agro and person with yellow eye.

#1 : I noted
#2: Never really was an issue. Before/after the breath wasn't what caused issues. I certainly dont remember any QQ about.
#3: Purple eye hits for more the "1k",
#4-#5 LM changes not the instance
#6: Food was nerf big time. You could argue the change is a wash if not worse.
#7-#8: Very minor.

Some of these changes are indeed small,

Yeap...

But I do remember all the QQ that plagued the threads, and now looking at all the changes I just thought of, you have to wonder why those changes were made.

Almost ALL the QQ was about the eyes on the LT, the Guantlet, and melees not having a role in the raid. I don't recall much of anything else.

Although I agree that farming SH EM does not TEACH you all that much about your class perse. If you are unwilling to grind out 120 rad, which shouldn't take that long even for casual players, then how on earth do you plan on grinding your way through BG - doing hours worth of trash and hours worth of wipes, if 120 rad is too much grind?

Its not a matter of "to much" its a matter of "makes no difference". Its a grind with out any reason other than to gate content. They are keeping you from advancing for the shear and sole reason of you haven't put the time in. What instance I chose to play should be just that, my choice. I should not be force to spend pointless hours grinding for nothing, learning nothing, just so I can get to the instance the I do get something and I do learn something.

Regardless, we really don't know what will happen with this new raid. I hope that it will be sufficiently difficult so as to provide a challenge, and I hope that this level of difficulty will persist regardless of the undergeared players complaining that they are getting 1 shotted in their random PUG that is playing together for the first time.

Completely agree, althought here are the times when a mechanic in a fight just needs to be adjusted. See #1 of your post.

However, I think the main question of this discussion is where do you draw the line between content accessibility for all and maintaining a challenge for those that seek it. I'm quite curious to see how Turbine answers that question and hopeful that they will manage to do it in a balanced manner.

I hope Turbine realizes that giving everyone accessibilty to a raid does not equal everyone shoud be able to complete the raid. Raid are the pinnical of PvE. They should provide ample challege the players at the point. Everyone should be able to try, not everyone should be able to win.

[Comma44]

#1 : I noted
#2: Never really was an issue. Before/after the breath wasn't what caused issues. I certainly dont remember any QQ about.
#3: Purple eye hits for more the "1k",
#4-#5 LM changes not the instance
#6: Food was nerf big time. You could argue the change is a wash if not worse.
#7-#8: Very minor.

2. Lol there was definitely QQ about it, maybe you missed the threads.
3. Ok max 1.2k? Check your combat log next time, that's the most I've seen it hit for since the last nerf.
4-5. Yes, but by making those changes the devs are fully aware of the changes it will make to the instance. Where else would LMs be fireloring "dead" mobs anyway? I'm simply assuming they did this because they didn't care about nerfing BG at this point, which is fair enough its been out for a long time, and I'm assuming it will be important in the next raid.
6. Good point, forgot about that. I'd bring up the pots you can use from the LOTRO store now, but I sincerely hope no one is buying those to beat this fight.
7. Makes the fight much more melee friendly.
8. My experience running with PUGs/groups other than mine is that this was often the hardest thing for people to wrap their heads around, especially when the hunter didn't understand that they always had to be on their toes.

The rest of your post has been argued back and forth for the past 20-something pages and is just a matter of differing points of view on the game, mostly having to do with people's play style and whether or not they are casual players, who they play with and how much time they have. Fair enough, no point getting into it again, I think the points of view are very clear and have been hashed out enough.

I hope Turbine realizes that giving everyone accessibilty to a raid does not equal everyone shoud be able to complete the raid. Raid are the pinnical of PvE. They should provide ample challege the players at the point. Everyone should be able to try, not everyone should be able to win.

Agreed, we'll just have to wait and see what happens. If the raid is truly as difficult as they claim it will be, will they be able to withstand pressure from customers threatening to quit because the content is too hard, involves too much wiping, too much time - just like people threatened to quit over radiance gating. Or perhaps they will find a great way to balance it all between the casual and the more hardcore raiders. My experience has been that you can never make everyone happy, but hopefully they will find an acceptable balance.

[jhwort]

Dark Delving. People have whined about how hard that was since day one. Has it been nerfed? Nope.
Death From Below. There's a 20-some page thread half full of people whining about how it's too hard (and the other half explaining how to do it). Has it been changed at all? Nope..

To be a nit-picky jerk, DD was actually nerfed (I think the same time Mirkwood released). One of the most difficult parts of the Gurvand fight was the adds coming every 1 minute. The timer for their respawn was increased significantly (to 2 or 3 minutes I believe), making it much easier.

As for the idea of another gating system to replace radiance, they've already implemented it, it's called the LoTRO Store.

Honestly though, itemization is the real issue. Radiance is just an arbitrary stat added to mask poor itemization and lack of character progression (as has already been stated). So it doesn't matter what raid comes out next, no one is going to run content if the rewards aren't worth the effort, and this will be especially true once radiance is gone.

Look at Helegrod now, how many groups consistently run Thorog? Very few, because you don't have to (not even once) to get the armor. A glaring oversight (bug?) that has ruined all of the dev work that went into revamping that instance - and without radiance that armor isn't terribly great on it's own merits (most of the sets).

[Streetpunk08]

As a long time LOTRO and MMO player, personally I liked the radiance idea in theory but the way they implemented it wasn't as good as it could have been same with LI's. Making it a stat on gear right away gives a big backlash to what little character progression and itemization is in the game. Making people re-run the same instances multiple times in a short period of time also hurt because people got so sick and tired of the instances after a few weeks. What really put the nail in the coffin was them putting quick band-aid fixes on the system I.E. the medallion system. Love the idea of not leaving getting it to the luck of a roll but anybody can see that alot of instances are gonna be ghost towns and people said that from the get go and surprise why run Dungeons when you can just burn through SH in 10 minutes. Individual instance medallions or coins or a deed based system should have been the next logical step, the medallions took a good idea that needed adjusting and just wrecked it completely. Removing radiance at this point almost has to happen the system is so broken it's orginal intentions faded long ago. Not to mention cranking up gloom is a lazy and cheesy way of increasing boss difficulty.


As far as the SoA days maybe I'm the only one but I remember having to do alot of grinding back in SoA once i hit level 50. First off leveling wasn't nearly as fast but more importantly the ungodly pre-book 12 legendary page grind. I may have been stupidly unlucky but i remember taking around 15 hours of farming elite spiders in Trollshaws to complete just 1 book, that's way worse than a few SH or SG runs, that to me was the worst grind in the history of the game. Slayer deeds were more tedious especially the ones that required killing elites (Sarnur trolls, MM trolls etc) or the ones in Angmar that required killing 450 worms or 450 Angmarim. I used to lead alot of Rift PUG groups before I joined a raiding kin (when I say pug I mean a real pug not a group of unkinned players grouping every week) and if I saw a Minstrel with no legendary traits no way am I taking him, is it possible to beat the instance without them? Yes but it's not a favorable set-up especially for a pug group of players who don't know the instance that well. When my old kin was learning BG I did the first two bosses in HM with only 80 rad on my RK, again it's possible but it definitely isn't favorable (Twins HM sucked with 80). Specifically when the Rift wasn't around yet if you didn't farm Helegrod one of the few ways to not have ****ty quest gear was either pay decent money for crafted things or grind the craft which was also tedious as hell not to mention trying to farm beryl shards or the named mob drops like colnor's scale etc. Basically if you were first learning Rift I highly doubt there were alot of groups farming it with quest gear, virtues on 1's and 2's and limited or no legendary traits. So this notion that all you had to do is hit 50 and bang your Rift or Helegrod ready and immediately started farming is not accurate. Also for certain classes without a kin it could be tedious to get some of the CD/Uru items as well.

As far as more people running it and getting whomped on, it's hard to say if it will lead to less challenging content than say VM 2.0 or BG but just because people didn't necessarily whine to get the Rift nerf is irrelevant since the Rift is irrelevant. BG is so much harder and unforgiving than the Rift it's not even funny. Making progress through BG is a slog and a half and for casual groups or true pug's it's gonna take a sizeable time investment to make progress, even the trash pulls will take practice and time to learn. With the Rift even if you couldn't beat Thaurlach or Thrang the earlier bosses were more than manageable and you got good drops from each, that's not so with BG, like I said it takes time and wipes to make any progress in there alot more than Rift did even if you know the strats. I havent done BG since the nerf so I don't know if it's still as brutal as it used to be.

Basically at this point there's really no other choice but to scrap radiance since it's been butchered so badly and I think there are potential positive and negative backlashes and like I said there was still grinding at endgame in SoA and imo it was way more tedious than what you have to do now.