Never Surrender (Part what.. Quatro?)

[MordecaiKell]

Really we will see after launch (and level up) but I think that NS will be as bad as before.

In theory changes to combat system are done to require a tank. So it should mean that damage receiving should be increased. If damage is increased then self healing for Wardens will be more needed. Since NS negates most of self healing then Warden will die after NS and we will see a wipe.

So either changes fail to accomplish the desired effect (requiring tank) or NS will fail.

But then, answer to NS is do not die... as always.

[baue8673]

Really we will see after launch (and level up) but I think that NS will be as bad as before.

In theory changes to combat system are done to require a tank. So it should mean that damage receiving should be increased. If damage is increased then self healing for Wardens will be more needed. Since NS negates most of self healing then Warden will die after NS and we will see a wipe.

So either changes fail to accomplish the desired effect (requiring tank) or NS will fail.

But then, answer to NS is do not die... as always.

Yep, I will still likely never use it. The only situation would be a last gasp desperate stand of the boss when he is in the death throes. Otherwise, I am back in the boat I was in before only now the bottom is sawed off. Going to die again most likely, caused I have lost all the things I was doing that prolonged it in the first place (healing/avoidance using masteries). Hmm, still seems like a bad idea.

Cooldown reductions or penalty reductions won't change that fact. Would be nice to have a burst cooldown of some sort like guards/champs. Like a large avoidance buff for a short period. Something.

[MorliX]

It seems like it would be foolish NOT to use the skill toward the tail end of any boss fight...as it could entail like a ~9 or 10,000 morale emergency heal (projecting for around 12k+ morale at 75) that will keep the boss locked-in with the tank rather than aggro jumping elsewhere.

As the warden is going down, it is pretty likely healers will have already had heals on the way trying to save you...and maybe another tank'ish class struggling to relieve aggro...each just NOT in time. These things may then arrive after the heal kicks in, but would have ended in a wipe beforehand without the extra time the skill might provide. It seems like it could help the situation stay under control in that regard and give that much more of a margin for error for other players to then shore things up (and keep doing so) through two minutes of penalty...a second tank having the aggro and/or possibly finishing the boss off instead of wiping.

[baue8673]

Yes, but then we get back to the cooldowns/passives champs/guards can burn. The guardian perseveres just long enough for those heals to land or other tank to take aggro. Or the champ gets a 25% heal so the heals land and other tank takes aggro. Except not the massive penalty. Personally, I am more excited about the threat snap or whatever that new skill is.

Unless champs tanks are setup to basically die every 90s and be defined by that lifesaving heal.

[J_Howell]

For what it's worth, count me in the "still sucks" camp. I haven't purchased NS from the trainer and don't expect to do so after ROI - the mastery gimp is far too much of a penalty. Someone asked earlier in the thread if wardens would prefer to die or lose their masteries. To me that's a no brainer, die and rez (either in a group or back at the circle) able to actually do something, rather than live and play as if I'm back at level 43. I think that's when I got my spear mastery, anyway.

You guys have constructed scenarios where the new NS is useful, so clearly it's not as worthless in ROI as it is now. I just expect those scenarios to be extremely rare and that if I ever encounter one I won't recognize it quickly enough to use NS if I were to acquire the skill. That's the thing about never-used skills, there's a significant delay remembering where the heck you put it (that's how my burglar got his first death, forgot where my evade button and potions were, I'd had such an easy time until then ).

And this armor set people have mentioned sounds really lame. Yay, the cooldown for a (mostly) useless skill is reduced, where the reason it's useless has nothing to do with the cooldown. I'd find a NS with 1 day CD and no mastery penalty to be far more valuable than even a very short CD skill that still incurred the mastery penalties.

[Kirkdog]

It seems like it would be foolish NOT to use the skill toward the tail end of any boss fight...as it could entail like a ~9 or 10,000 morale emergency heal (projecting for around 12k+ morale at 75) that will keep the boss locked-in with the tank rather than aggro jumping elsewhere.

That's true. I had not even considered that. Does anyone know if power healing generates aggro? I know power leeching (LM) generates aggro similar as damage to morale. Regardless of whether or not power healing generates aggro, that's an TON of aggro, I think that would make up for anything that might be lost for not using masteries for 2 minutes. And it would certainly outpace any amount of HoT's that could be applied over that 2 minute period. In a tough fight, defiant challenge a huge crowd, pop NS, if that heal pops while everyone is attacking us then not even champs shing shing would peel mobs off. Then you just have to morale leech (which are being buffed in RoI) and hope the healer can keep up.