Update 7: Developer Diary Feedback: Fornost

[Eckenbrand]

Hey Devs, fix the weapon bouncing. It's causing unneeded animation.

[Talaixa]

one serious question: how many of you who dislike the redesign of Fornost were actually playing the instance before? And I mean more than once? (this is of course valid for other redesigned instances as well)

[Egonz]

As for breaking it up and scaling it: So far I've found it a disappointment, but Fornost is the one instance that probably needed it most... but I just can't understand why does every single 6-man need to have the same 45-60 mins target time and have similar buildup with 2 or 3 bosses with comparable sets of 'special effects'? Can't we have one or two that do target players who like more extensive instances?

I've recently been solo-ing/duo-ing Urugarth and am still impressed by it: it's such a different atmosphere from any of the recent instances. Clear sky... you're able to look ahead. Non-linear paths through the instance. Areas that mean sudden death if you're walking in unprepared. Patrols that run off to call for help and pull half the instance upon you if you don't get them... instead of silly Orcs that just stand there and watch you slaughter their friends. Compared to that the newer instances feel much more scripted and rigid.

I agree 11000%.
I hate the new face instances are getting and i couldn't care less that it took longer/harder with the old system,
that's what gave the instances its charm.
It would've been nice just to make it scalable but leave the rest as it is.
Why oh why do we need the SAME thing now in Fornost which every other instance has?
GB/Helegrod/GA all following the same ultra-boring winged pattern, when i actually did it back in SoA days it was FUN and interesting, nobody cared about loot, it was all about having a blast with ur mates in a longer, more vast and exciting instance.
It's just idiotic where instance content is going; where the game is going.
It seems that now they keep making short, quick, rewarding, braindead, non-skilled runs to please all the P2W's who have concept how to enjoy the game without having it right here and right now, epically fast with no effort input. Why can't we have something more longer and enjoyable with a more relaxing atmosphere. Get a free evening, get some beers and dried squid out, have a chillax run for a few hours with ur mates (or kin or w/e), without the same linear pattern like all the new instances do. You pick the fights, you pick the bosses, you pick the direction where to go (when u got the key ofc).
There is NO restrictions as in which boss or which part of the instance u wanna do 1st, whereas all the new instances u have absolutely no choice, it's all in a usually 2x3m corridor following down with same mobs after same intervals, just getting more of 'em as u proceed. Where the flip' sake is the fun in that?
Yeah - i farm foundry, it gives nice rewards (seals/meds), do i enjoy it? Heck no, it's the most boring 6-man after GS, and even GS had more ingenuity put into it than this.
I'm lvl 75 on 6 toons, done fornost about 30 times over 4 years, and i still enjoy going there to revisit, not for the rewards, but for the beauty of the instance itself. Wish it was the same but lvl 75, but heh... another instance i won't do, same as i didn't do GB/Hele/GA after they winged and ruined it - just sad, really is.

[Egonz]

one serious question: how many of you who dislike the redesign of Fornost were actually playing the instance before? And I mean more than once? (this is of course valid for other redesigned instances as well)

Done fornost about 30 times on 9 alts over the past few years, same with GB and GA, even at max levels - for the fun not for loot.

[Malachi108]

So, we logged in once servers were up and six of us went inside Fornost.

Changed in lighting/textures are welcome - the whole place has a much more pleasant look now. Once we went inside, changes were apparent - stuff that wasn't there before, stuff that was there now gone, wall in place of roads and other layout changes - that's OK, to be expected from a revamp. Many bosses apparently changed locations as well - gives it an unusual feel, not to mention they have 30x time more morale and everything that goes with it.

Wraith of Water. Level 75. Tier 1. So we went in, killed first 2 bosses, rescued Sara, did two optional quests - got some marks, medallions and couple of gold each. So far so good. Got to the wraith, killed him without trouble. Both first and third boss chest dropped unimpressive purple pieces. Well, that is to be expected from T1 - we never wiped and only two of us died here and there.

Wraith of Earth. Level 75. Decided to try T2 after our success in previous wing. We walk in... and first boss tears us to pieces. We prepare a little more - same result. His buffs allow him to hit for over 8k on a non-crit. Not good. We try some more strategy and after 3 or 4 wipes total we kill him. Yay! The purple piece from the chest is unimpressive again - well, we're no at challenge yet. We go inside, kill Trolls and Goblins, do two optional quests, proceed into tower, reach last boss. Challenge is not to kill any adds... okay. We wipe once, then again, again... by this time most of us died 5-6 times and almost everybody leaves to repair. Eventually we all come back, select a new precise strategy and with many deaths and a lot of effort we complete the challenge. Yay, guys, we rock! Except we get no seals - only the same marks and medallions. We also have completed the deed for this wing - reward is a whooping 10 medallions, wow! We open the big chest and all there is within is one bounty and another purple uninspiring piece.

Seriously, Turbine, what were you thinking? Even Great Barrow and Annuminas still award some seals when you complete L75 challenge, but not Fornost? Also, even on T2 all we get is below average purple piece, worse than the loot from T1 Isengard 3-mans (which is not worth using either). We wiped 8 times and dealt with two hellish waves on adds (on 1st and 3rd boss) and we don't even get any Seals for it? With no seals and no teals, why would you expect anyone would run it at all? They'll just keep farming T2 Foundry/T1 Fangorn's Edge for Seals/Medallions, with occasional RoF for eggs/teal bracelets. Myself, I would run them just for deeds even if there were no other rewards at all - but how am I supposed to find 5 other people for it, when everybody knows it's a waste of time, compared with much easier (yes, easier) T2 Foundry?

[Sarturos]

one serious question: how many of you who dislike the redesign of Fornost were actually playing the instance before? And I mean more than once? (this is of course valid for other redesigned instances as well)

While I also played the instances for fun after beeing out of the fitting levelrange this is not the right question. We know that fornost as is is dead but to think that the instance will be better just because it is devided into smaller pieces is the reason why so much people complain against this revamp. Making those old instances "simply" scalable would be enough. Well new monsters and optics also sounds good but fornost will not be fornost as many people liked it (or any other chopped instance).

[Feanro]

/DevFail

The only reason why people are in Foundry and RoF all the time is for the seals twice a week for the ridiculous grind of OT gear.

Instead of Farming OT bosses for token pieces of OT gear, they can do OT once, then grind out the pieces in easier more straight forward instances such as Draigoch, Foundry and RoF2

That is why people arent going to be inside Fornost after they have run it a couple of times, because it doesnt give seals

If the devs cant see why people are entering these instances in the 1st place, how can they provide better content

It will be funny to see what becomes of OT when RoR hits, people will not be trying very hard for that OT gear, when they can just grind upto the lvl85 stuff, and its certainly to hard to obtain for the purposes of leveling up

Will the devs notice this. 5bucks says no

[andracy]

waited for so long for Fornost ... last night ofc we took our best rangers and checked closely We did tier 2 challenge ofc all the way. We had cappy, tank, mini (me), burg, LM and champ. On short:
- the instance look awesome, nice graphics
- we wiped 4 times overall, two times at the water boss (had trouble figuring where to stay and not take aggro from adds, also being in healing range of the tank and of the rest of the group, once at the boss with adds where u had to kite them until the boss is on (first time we kill all and the boss had like 20 buffs on him), once on the boss where u must have the whole room in fire and once at the end. Actually we did not wiped, we lost the challenge, make up a strategy and restart the fight.
- the instance can be easy, can be hard. First wing is the hardest, the rest in a walk in the park with a good group.
- i healed overall almost 10 M in 4 h

Loot:
- we did all the deeds, tier 2, challenge mode on boss
- at the end we had like 2k marks, around 500 medalions, and 2 seals from the last boss . That because we did all the deeds, usually doing all the quests u will get around 50 meds per wing. Useless again.
- we had one piece of loot mostly for tactical, useless and one bounty, sometimes tier 3-4 relic or an IXP rune ~ 40-50k
- the loot is like this: at lvl 50 shoulders with 30 will, 30 fate, 300 critt, 100 morale, at lvl 75 the same shoulders with 50 will, 50 fate, 500 critt, 200 morale. they are scalable like the instance, useless anyway and trust me, no one will use them, also it was very hard for me to keep the group up sometimes, i am sure u will not enter there to do challenge t2 geared with crafted gear.

Trust me, i never had so much fun there from long time, was awesome. The boss where all the mobs stay around and cheers at you, and suddenly all of them attack you was epic, was fun. Nice challenges, some new stuff like killing the boss in 1.5 min, the challenge of water boss is crazy btw if u dont have ranged dps like we did not ... nice job Turbine.
Too bad that ... oh, u did not realised until now? No one will run the instance second time. Why? Why doing? Except fun loosing 4 h for nothing is not nice. 2 seals from the last boss? Even the skirmishes raids give a lot of nice stuff, excelent jewellery, seals, meds ... in Fornost is nothing. Maybe in the next update they will fix the loot also.
Good try, i liked. Too bad that at the end, the rewards are 0.

[Rawlor]

The only reason why people are in Foundry and RoF all the time is for the seals twice a week for the ridiculous grind of OT gear.

Ridiculous grind... lol

It really doesn't take that long to get all the seals you need for a full set of Orthanc armor. Especially if you actually run Orthanc semi-regular.

But back to the point... yes the loot leaves everything to be desired. It isn't balanced at all.

All of these scalable instances are supposed to help out with medallions & marks for the acquisition of of the base teal gear. It's a bit off the mark there. Where it totally fails though is incentive to re-run the instances due to the lack of desirable drops or any reward for t2c. Tier 2 challenge on level should drop seals, always. It should also drop good shiny things.

But I don't think they've understood that the T2 challenges on these are more difficult than any raid skirm... yet the raid skirms actually have good drops. It's perplexing.

[Lestache]

Ridiculous grind... lol

It really doesn't take that long to get all the seals you need for a full set of Orthanc armor. Especially if you actually run Orthanc semi-regular.

But back to the point... yes the loot leaves everything to be desired. It isn't balanced at all.

All of these scalable instances are supposed to help out with medallions & marks for the acquisition of of the base teal gear. It's a bit off the mark there. Where it totally fails though is incentive to re-run the instances due to the lack of desirable drops or any reward for t2c. Tier 2 challenge on level should drop seals, always. It should also drop good shiny things.

But I don't think they've understood that the T2 challenges on these are more difficult than any raid skirm... yet the raid skirms actually have good drops. It's perplexing.

Not perplexing at all - remember the Moria instances? Grand Stair - easy, quick, and the best loot. 16th Hall - harder, long, and terrible loot. Loot commensurate to the difficulty of obtaining it has not been a strong suit for LOTRO sometimes.

However, I do have hope - RockX seems at least willing to communicate with us, which I can't recall any itemization dev doing before.

[Tiamo]

Sad, angry, disappointed.

Like most everything in the game, now Fornost is no longer going to be a PLACE, it's a scenario. I'm sick and tired of instances. I wanted to play in the WORLD of Middle-Earth, not little scenes of it.

[Bel-Astarte]

Well, some of our kinnies have gone through it, and enjoyed it. Vs never being able to get a group together for long enough to get the whole thing done previously, and I tried.

Our group run this evening is going to focus on getting as many of our kinnies through it as want to go-keeping in mind that the xp will not be the reward. So, put me in the group that says breaking this instance up is a good thing.

[Kyle666666]

Devs are terrible. I don't know if they are just on too strict of deadlines or if they have no common sense whatsoever. Why scale an instance an have no reason to run it. The game is already dying and it's death is accelerating with the lag issues and the lack of vision from the devs.
I'm not surprised this turned out terrible. But, I would have figured they would figure out by now people don't run instances that have no decent rewards. This will just be another excuse for them to delay scaling up other instances. "Oh, lotro players don't respond well to scaled old instances" they will say. I've heard that excuse from them before. If only they knew it was because they are TERRIBLE and lack ANY VISION when it comes to end-game content. If they want to stay viable in a growing world of creative mmo's they better wake up, learn how to create fun content, and learn that people won't play if there is no incentive.
For those of us who have beaten ToO, this game offers nothing. Sorry to say I'm done. Been trying to get them to wake up since Mirkwood, but alas they think they are too smart to listen to what their PLAYER BASE wants (Kinship Revamp Proposal). CYA LOTRO, maybe I'll come back to see Mordor some day (If the game still exists).

[Catisa]

Sad to see after just a day or two day, Fornost has flat lined again. I want to run it Turbine, I also want to run GB and Annuminas, please give us a reason to. At level cap make all the 6 man instances share a loot table and normalize the seals and medallion rewards. Make it so joining the instance finder and choosing a random 6 man isn't a penalty but a reward for being willing to run anything. As it is now, there is no reason to run anything but Foundry.
I know some people will hate me for saying this but put twice weekly locks on the challenge chest so people are forced to do them all if they want a specific shiney that drops from the challenge chest. But again that would only work if the currency is normalized across all level cap instances (scaling or not) and the loot table shared.

I've managed to do the first 2 wings of Fornost on 1 of my five 75's, the rest can't even get in because no one will run them anymore.

[Tiamo]

In my experience, the reason these places were inactive was because there was no way to get into them alone. Look at Dol Dirnen. It's a huge area that a solo character will get slaugtered in, but it's possible to sneak in through the gaps in the patrols, maybe take on one elite at a time as you work your way in. Groups form spontaneously in there, as you see someone doing that and team up with him on the spot. People that want to be there are already there. The instances, you have to wait around for because you can't get into them at all without a full group due to the large groups of elites at various choke points.

These places need to be PLACES, not instances, and they need to be ACCESSABLE by individual characters so groups can form spontaneously.

[t-town-colt]

I agree with the people that have said no one runs the instance because there is no reward. I did the water wraith and have no desire to go into that instance anymore. I actually don't think its a bad instance either but there no reason for me to do it. the loot is horrendous and I think I got one seal. One seal? Whose idea was that. Even if this run gave out ten seals I could see myself going in there far more often, but one seal seems more like a slap in the face than a reward. Congrats you beat it!!! HA HA HA HA we only gave you a seal, wasn't that a fun waste of thirty minutes!

[mmdur1]

I loved the old Fornost instance as it was the first instance that I ever ran in any MMO. I was such a complete noob that it took me 9 hours to complete it, and I kept getting lost after every wipe - it was loads of fun. That said, I really like what Turbine did with the revamp. The instances are challenging and fun to run, though some of the challenge modes are kinda silly (really, I gotta jump around from rock to rock and avoid server lag to get a challenge?).

That said, no one will be running this at level cap more than once. No one. The loot is just utterly terribad. I mean, it is just a complete and utter waste of time to run these instances. I don't know anyone that runs them. I don't know anyone that wants to run them. And I am in a kin of inveterate LOTRO junkies that run EVERYTHING all the time.

The loot is utterly and completely pathetic.

I really look forward to the day when Turbine stops letting their itemization department utterly ruin the hard work of their instance devs.

End of rant.

[snakeeyes00]

From my point of view, this revamp hasnt really taken off. During the times that I have been online in the last 2 weeks I have never seen a GLFF for Fornost, yet I am continouly seeing Pugs forming for Foundry and RoF everyday. I have done the first wing at level 40 just to see the inside of it, but due to a seeming lack on interest from everyone I havent run it at level 75. Something I would like to do. This leads me to believe that the revamp hasnt been as successful as the Devs would of liked, which is sad

[ewrdfdstwe4e]

I really don't understand why Turbine goes through all of this effort only to give no incentive to do the instances. Instead of giving nothing for completion, I wish the rewards were about 80% of what the RoI instances are in terms of currency. Still give incentive to do the new stuff, but right now I'm bored of having nothing to do but one real raid, one fake raid, and two six mans at 75, and if I want to do anything else get no rewards whatsoever. If t2c foundry rewards about 400 medallions and 25 seals, I think all the other t2c scalable instances should reward maybe 300 medallions and 20 seals, or something to keep them somewhat competitive, and have the challenge chest drop a piece of jewelry useful for some geared member in the group. I really don't think that is too much to ask for, and it would make endgame a thousand times more exciting than running the same four instances over and over.

[Aedfrith]

Because the loot sucks compared to foundry and ROF and the sub-bosses are nearly as tough as foundry/ROF, with added time limits. The scale of risk v reward is out of whack.

[Lyllie]

When Fornost revamped first came out - we were quite excited and ran it. But overtime as an alternative instance for end game content we hardly know anyone who runs it. The reason being is that the loot compares unfavourable with the Isenguard and Fangorn isntances.

I always thought that scaling up instances to cap level was to broaden the content and choices available for players at cap. However without the competative alternative rewards and loot they just will not be run. Is there not a way to include in the scaling up model a scaling up of loot too?