No Titles in Ortanc

[PsychobabbleJJ]

By default, in every raid, there should be a title associated with a full T1 clear, a title associated with a full T2 clear and a title associated with a full T2c clear; all on an individual basis (per the draigoch setup). Any bonus or extra super challenge titles you want to add is fine but I can't see any reason for not having simple completion based titles.

[Kraggy_Eldar]

This mechanic utterly ignores the reality of raiding kins, with rosters, rotations, the class requirements of each fight, use of more than one character etc.

My kin, for example, has 3 raiding GRDs, 3 BRGs, 3 MNS and 3 HNTs. All play a full role in our raiding, including the learning process. Asking one of each to stand down and miss out on the title is arbitrary, divisive and wholly unnecessary.

Like I said, server firsts are meaningless, once you come to accept that then there's no need for the /emo which this silly idea causes.

[Kraggy_Eldar]

There is a unique title for being the first group on the server to do it.

Why?

What value does this have, when THIS IS NOT A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD where all participants are equal, where for example pre-knowledge gained from being part of the inner circle who get to test content makes a HUGE difference?

[PhantomPunkk]

I think it's a bit annoying that only the first 12 People beating Saruman CM get Titels - no Titel for all other CM - no complete Title - I think it's ab bit annoying if you couldn't be part of the raid were your Kin would kill Saruman Serverfirst and you didn't get ANY Title...

What do you think?
Before this Raid there was a Title in EVERY raidcluster for Killing anything - why not in Ortanc?

I think it's annoying the server first titles all went to people who exploited the fight. But the title is horrible and lame anyway so I don't lament the fact overmuch because of that.

[nightzirch90]

I understand why people are negative about a server first title which only 12 people get, but to me it looks like people are never satisfied with how anything are done. When the Skeleton Mount from the event were super-rare people were bitching. When the Skeleton Mount got offered on the store so those who were bitching could get it, they were still bitching. (Sorry about the language)

I think some things should be very exclusive in this game, like a server first title. A title for first Saruman CM kill would be kinda pointless due to the exploiting that was going on. This new idea though, where one would have to complete all the challenges in one instance for the title, I think is much better. One would not only have to be a skilled kin to have the kills down, but also have them on farm to make it go within a reasonable timeframe, or just extreme dedication and long raiding sessions.

There's one thing I'd like to see though, and that's a title for everyone who completes this "All Challanges In One Instance" madness! Kind of like a tier 1 of the title, while server first gets the tier 2 of that title; a much cooler-sounding one. That way those who give it a fair amount of tries don't get discouraged or even pissed off when another kin on the server grabs the server first before them.

In conclusion: reward for everyone, but a bigger one for first place so people got a carrot to pursue

[MightyKOko]

This mechanic utterly ignores the reality of raiding kins, with rosters, rotations, the class requirements of each fight, use of more than one character etc.

My kin, for example, has 3 raiding GRDs, 3 BRGs, 3 MNS and 3 HNTs. All play a full role in our raiding, including the learning process. Asking one of each to stand down and miss out on the title is arbitrary, divisive and wholly unnecessary.

And what exactly stops you to clear this more than once so other kin members could get the title too ? (Well, not talking about server first of course )

Some problem with alting could be fixed if these deeds were account-based, not char-based.

Yeah, because having lvl7 farmer in the Shire with Isengard Challenge title makes so much sense...

By default, in every raid, there should be a title associated with a full T1 clear, a title associated with a full T2 clear and a title associated with a full T2c clear; all on an individual basis (per the draigoch setup). Any bonus or extra super challenge titles you want to add is fine but I can't see any reason for not having simple completion based titles.

This.

[MorphenAvari]

Thank you, thats just awesome imo

This requires you to not be just lucky, or doing one single boss until you get your kill, but to play well consistantly. I love it!

Sounds good on paper, except for how the extreme difficulty level makes it unlikely that very many servers will have a group complete this before the level cap rises.

[Crell_1]

Yeah, because having lvl7 farmer in the Shire with Isengard Challenge title makes so much sense...

I'd say grant it when you reach level 75 and finish the T1 meta for the character, but that just seems needlessly complex.
It's an acknowledgement that the player has done something special. You don't have to wear it if you don't want to.

[Crell_1]

Sounds good on paper, except for how the extreme difficulty level makes it unlikely that very many servers will have a group complete this before the level cap rises.

Riddermark got its server first T2C OD just recently, and I was there, we're still trying to get 1 of our 12 the title. I hope that +JWB DOESN'T require the 30s rez for players who were a part of this long and epic feat, or allows the GMs to grant it to players / characters who were clearly at the server first kill.

Server first titles lost to a zoning screen (tower top to bottom)... would be a real shame.

[Southpa]

Kind of a neat deed. Thanks for letting us in on it.
Now to plan that Saturday that my 11 closest friends and I are willing and able to waste...

The server-first title you get wouldn't happen to be "Wife Aggro" would it?

[semjaza]

By default, in every raid, there should be a title associated with a full T1 clear, a title associated with a full T2 clear and a title associated with a full T2c clear; all on an individual basis (per the draigoch setup). Any bonus or extra super challenge titles you want to add is fine but I can't see any reason for not having simple completion based titles.

Personally, I think this is the real "compromise". Give everyone a title -- but give a special title to people who do the challenge clear or even a more special title for people who do the challenge clear first on the server. The end.

[Tarmas_Eldar]

And what exactly stops you to clear this more than once so other kin members could get the title too ? (Well, not talking about server first of course )

I was, in fact, only talking about the server first title - I thought I'd made that clear. Obviously the other title can be got for anyone who wants it in time.

A title for first Saruman CM kill would be kinda pointless due to the exploiting that was going on.

Actually it wouldn't in this case, because the exploiters didn't complete the challenge (which requires you to completely destroy the ring, something you can only achieve by succeeding in the final ring-show round after phase 5). The exploit terminated the fight much earlier.

As regards the general principle that an exploitable fight could mean cheaters getting a title they didn't earn and (the crucial point) denying it to others, yes that has to be a risk. Another reason not to have one-time-only titles, IMO.

[anteku]

Some problem with alting could be fixed if these deeds were account-based, not char-based.

That would mean that level 20 crafting toons would get the title too....

[Lestache]

I'm generally not one to multi-quote, but in the 2 1/2 pages of this thread it appears that folks are already misunderstanding what jwbarry wrote. In a way, I'm impressed.

First, jwbarry's post again, with key points highlighted by me for emphasis.

Was going to wait until F&F Challenge fell to let this out of the bag but now seems just as appropriate.

There is a meta challenge within Orthanc. It has not been done on any server yet.

It requires all challenges to be completed in a single 'run' of the instance. You can reset each challenge as many times as you want so long as you ultimately beat them all and the instance itself never resets. People can leave to retrait and come back, you can swap members of the group, etc, all of that is valid. So long as the instance itself is never collapsed. Some causes of that are group disbandment and if the instance is empty for a period of time.

There is a title for accomplishing this at any point in time.
There is a unique title for being the first group on the server to do it.

For those who are interested, the reason we went with all challenges was a response to feedback on how we did the OD challenge and the play behaviour that generated from it.
Since OD was just the last boss' challenge, once the server first was discovered several kins cleared on tier 1 then just fought gortheron on tier 2. This defeated a large part of the intent and cheapened the accomplishment and you all were correct to point that out. This iteration we've shifted to all challenges to address the raised issues.

We could not have just done the first to complete all the challenges themselves, regardless of when, because we don't have the tech to do that. It would also be a shift to rewarding individuals...
(depending on who completed what when and the various group makeups, say only 2 of the people in on the F&F challenge have done the other 4 challenges. Are they the only ones to get the server first, does the rest of the group get it when they catch up, how many individuals get the server first before we transition it over. What if that number is crossed mid group that just completed, do some people get left out. Since this is all acting on the individual now we need a lot of messaging back and forth and a new system for the game to track and measure all of this. Etc. There's lots of really gnarly situations that develop with that model and too much tech required for something that doesn't affect that many players in the end.)
... as opposed to rewarding the group, which really makes the more sense given the raid environment and requirement for a top tier well synced group of people.

And now...

I think it's annoying the server first titles all went to people who exploited the fight. But the title is horrible and lame anyway so I don't lament the fact overmuch because of that.

The server first title (and the other title) is only for beating all Challenge modes in a single run of the instance. Even the exploiters never beat F&F Challenge, so they won't have these titles. For that matter, most of the Saruman T2 exploiting only awarded T2 completion, not T2C.

Also, note the underlined passage above. The titles have not been awarded to anyone yet. So... your concern isn't an issue.

I understand why people are negative about a server first title which only 12 people get, but to me it looks like people are never satisfied with how anything are done. When the Skeleton Mount from the event were super-rare people were bitching. When the Skeleton Mount got offered on the store so those who were bitching could get it, they were still bitching. (Sorry about the language)

I think some things should be very exclusive in this game, like a server first title. A title for first Saruman CM kill would be kinda pointless due to the exploiting that was going on. This new idea though, where one would have to complete all the challenges in one instance for the title, I think is much better. One would not only have to be a skilled kin to have the kills down, but also have them on farm to make it go within a reasonable timeframe, or just extreme dedication and long raiding sessions.

There's one thing I'd like to see though, and that's a title for everyone who completes this "All Challanges In One Instance" madness! Kind of like a tier 1 of the title, while server first gets the tier 2 of that title; a much cooler-sounding one. That way those who give it a fair amount of tries don't get discouraged or even pissed off when another kin on the server grabs the server first before them.

In conclusion: reward for everyone, but a bigger one for first place so people got a carrot to pursue

See the bolded section in jwbarry's post. He's implemented exactly what you're asking for: any group that completes all challenges in one instance run gets a title, and the group that does it the first time on each server gets another title.

Riddermark got its server first T2C OD just recently, and I was there, we're still trying to get 1 of our 12 the title. I hope that +JWB DOESN'T require the 30s rez for players who were a part of this long and epic feat, or allows the GMs to grant it to players / characters who were clearly at the server first kill.

Server first titles lost to a zoning screen (tower top to bottom)... would be a real shame.

Since the Challenge Mode for Saruman requires that nobody dies at any point during the fight, there won't be any issues with dead people not receiving the title(s) since none of the 12 will receive the title(s) anyway. If someone lags out while zoning and misses the title, however, that would be unfortunate.

Finally, on an unrelated note:

Why?

What value does this have, when THIS IS NOT A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD where all participants are equal, where for example pre-knowledge gained from being part of the inner circle who get to test content makes a HUGE difference?

It can never be a level playing field anyway due to the fact that people have varying levels of skill, but even leaving that aside...

Given that two of the fights were overtuned to the point that no one could beat them, and that jwbarry specifically told us - us as in all of us on the public forums - what the changes would be, no one could possibly have gained an advantage in beating Saruman T2C this week (or F&F T2C, whenever that happens) by being involved in the Palantir program. In fact, there's a strong suspicion that the folks on Palantir never managed to beat those fights either - at the very least, we can't get a dev to confirm that the fights were ever beaten in their previous incarnation.

Regardless, I think my first point remains. Skill (and teamwork, coordination, and intelligence) trumps foreknowledge any day.

[nightzirch90]

Sorry, my good sir, for missing a line. My fault entierly and I apologize for any problems this may have caused

<3

[Crell_1]

Since the Challenge Mode for Saruman requires that nobody dies at any point during the fight, there won't be any issues with dead people not receiving the title(s) since none of the 12 will receive the title(s) anyway. If someone lags out while zoning and misses the title, however, that would be unfortunate.

Which is why I pointed out the lag issue, and asked for JWB to set the precedent so that GMs could assist in granting the completion if sufficient documentation was provided. Lag and zoning is a really large issue that since U6 has only seemed to get worse. When our member failed to get credit, we waited for more than 2hrs to get a response, which consisted of /bug it. The developer's blessing is really our only recourse to crediting the player. The issue goes beyond lag, and this particular challenge's no-death's requirement. It goes to the fact that 'server-first' titles are a switch that can only be thrown once. There's no way to fix it with a 2nd attempt, and the only documentation can be the other people standing there when it's completed. These kinds of things need to be considered when creating one-off challenges. Everyone who was part of the challenge as described at completion should get the title upon completion of the event that would bestow the challenge deed.

Please, no hidden pre-requisites examples: 'You cannot be dead', 'You cannot arrive at the chest more than X seconds after the boss-script completes' Fortunately this challenge has no-deaths as part of its pre-req.

It can never be a level playing field anyway due to the fact that people have varying levels of skill, but even leaving that aside...

Given that two of the fights were overtuned to the point that no one could beat them, and that jwbarry specifically told us - us as in all of us on the public forums - what the changes would be, no one could possibly have gained an advantage in beating Saruman T2C this week (or F&F T2C, whenever that happens) by being involved in the Palantir program. In fact, there's a strong suspicion that the folks on Palantir never managed to beat those fights either - at the very least, we can't get a dev to confirm that the fights were ever beaten in their previous incarnation.

Agreed. Its far more likely that the version Palantir players tested was tuned such that all the mechanics could be reliably tested, and then the dps requirement knobs turned up and the run sent to br->live.

Regardless, I think my first point remains. Skill (and teamwork, coordination, and intelligence) trumps foreknowledge any day.

All the more reason that the credit should be with the player, and not the character for server-first titles, and that credit should be something they can draw on or display when-ever they are logged in.

[Lestache]

Which is why I pointed out the lag issue, and asked for JWB to set the precedent so that GMs could assist in granting the completion if sufficient documentation was provided. Lag and zoning is a really large issue that since U6 has only seemed to get worse. When our member failed to get credit, we waited for more than 2hrs to get a response, which consisted of /bug it. The developer's blessing is really our only recourse to crediting the player. The issue goes beyond lag, and this particular challenge's no-death's requirement. It goes to the fact that 'server-first' titles are a switch that can only be thrown once. There's no way to fix it with a 2nd attempt, and the only documentation can be the other people standing there when it's completed. These kinds of things need to be considered when creating one-off challenges. Everyone who was part of the challenge as described at completion should get the title upon completion of the event that would bestow the challenge deed.

Please, no hidden pre-requisites examples: 'You cannot be dead', 'You cannot arrive at the chest more than X seconds after the boss-script completes' Fortunately this challenge has no-deaths as part of its pre-req.



Agreed. Its far more likely that the version Palantir players was tuned such that all the mechanics could be reliable tested, and then the dps requirement knobs turned up and the run sent to br->live.



All the more reason that the credit should be with the player, and not the character for server-first titles, and that credit should be something they can draw on or display when-ever they are logged in.

Yeah, it'd be nice if the GMs were given the ability - even better, the directive - to fix issues like the one your player encountered. I know that they can grant titles - I accidentally ate the Barrow-bree while in a raid (back when it was still a rare drop), and so I didn't get the title, since you can't advance most deeds in a raid. Sent in a ticket, a GM chatted with me briefly, noted that I had definitely eaten the Barrow-bree, and granted me the title.

Perhaps that example is another relic of the past regarding GM actions, though. I don't know.