There will be no "Return of the King"

[Mar-Evayave]

Neither does derailing a thread by bemoaning the fact that someone else is derailing a thread.

It is impossible to derail an already-derailed thread, and bemoaning the fact that others derailed it does nothing in either direction. However, following up that bemoaning with an attempt to rerail the thread is a good thing, and hopefully others follow suit before there is no thread left to rerail it in.

Serious question, but why should all solo content be completable by as many people as possible?

Because not everyone who plays this game plays it to challenge themselves. Some people get home from a stressing day of work and just want to blast enemies into a million itty-bitty parts. Well, maybe not that extreme, but the idea is the same. Some people, perhaps even many people or possibly most people, want to do something relaxing. They want to experience the story and have a leisurely time exploring the gameworld. When people find themselves challenged when they are just wanting to relax, it takes away the utility of the game.

The vast majority of the landscape content is the story of the game. The story that every player is permitted to explore at their will (assuming they have purchased access). And because the abilities of each individual player varies, so too does the amount of challenge something could present to them. If Turbine wants to get as many players in the game as they can, then they need to make sure that as many people as possible can play it. I'm not saying to make it so easy that you could literally win by rolling your face across the keyboard. But easy enough that most people (of all demographics) can still do it. That means three things:

• Most people will be fine.
• Some people will get frustrated at how challenging it is.
• Some people will get frustrated at how faceroll it is.

One of the biggest attractions to LOTRO is the source. Fans of LOTR are universally fans of the story, of Tolkien, of Middle-Earth. Sure, many of them (myself included) enjoy a good challenge beyond the simple story. But I feel most are drawn specifically because of the story. And if they are turned away from experiencing that story because they aren't as good as the average player, then that is a player lost to Turbine, and a player who misses out on all the good things LOTRO offers.

I do agree that all of the classes need to feel the whack of the nerf bat. For example:

- Tank specs should dish out a lot less dps and have a lot less healing

- Healers should be required to make use of several healing skills as well as manage power over the course of a fight.

- DPS classes need to lose some of their survivability. Lotro's glass canons should not be made of that toughened safety glass that takes a sledgehammer to break through.

But we all know that's not going to happen!

As to nerfing classes, I can think of some classes that need it a lot more than others. I'm still trying to find the bullet-proof glass for my glass-cannon RK. :/ As much as I like the trait trees (in concept), some classes fared worse than others, and I miss them in their pre-HD feel. RK and LM foremost among them.

I like the burg and guard better after HD (disclaimer: my guard is an infant compared to Castorix, but I like that I can do more DPS and I'm not such a power-hog as I used to be; burg doesn't seem overpowered to me as I level, and I genuinely enjoy the gambler line, whereas pre-HD the whole class made little sense to me). Hunter seems better also, though it's always been a class I'm relatively indifferent about. My warden is only lvl 35 and I didn't play it hardly at all before HD, so can't comment.

Minstrel is roughly on-par with what it was before, though I feel survivability isn't as great when DPSing. But then I've always DPSed in Melody/Harmony, not Dissonance/War-speech. In D/WS survivability is poor. In M/H it's almost as good as it used to be. In Resonance/unstanced, the minstrel is a little boring, though I will admit that in the Moors the minstrel's heals seem very inadequate when faced off against a heal-stacked craid.

The champion was OP before HD and I honestly haven't tested it enough post-HD to determine whether I think it is better, worse, or on-par. I disliked the captain before HD and it seems even worse after HD. And naturally the Beorning is only post-HD so there is no comparison, and mine is only level 6 so I can say absolutely zero.

Based on my own experiences* and the thoughts of others, I'd say the following:

• Minstrel when heal-focused needs more interaction with other skills. Make some more important and others less powerful. Basic balancing. When DPS-focused needs more heals. Hybrid is acceptable in general.
• RK needs more self-healing abilities when DPSing (for survival). If playing in blue, DPS is so low that even normal mobs seem to take forever. If playing in red/yellow, healing is way too flimsy.
• LM needs more self-healing and the pets seem (IMO) too squishy.
• Guardian needs major nerf. I personally am no where near the godmode of some, so I actually do fine, but I also do see that there are some areas where it's way overpowered.
• Captain just needs so much help. I find it to be a boring class and everything is only mediocre. Meh DPS, meh healing, meh support. Mine is only lvl 83, but that's just my opinion.
• Champion seems fine.
• Hunter seems fine.
• Burglar seems fine at level 60.
• Warden seems fine at level 35.
• Can't comment on Beorning.

*NOTE: All but minstrel are on Riddermark and have very poor gear/stats. AH is no help, and the server is so dead that I can't stand to be on it long enough to group for anything. Also, I don't want to raid on all my characters, so getting gear for the alts becomes all the harder. :/

[Snowlock]

It is impossible to derail an already-derailed thread,

You mean for you right? Cause you automatically make exceptions for yourself. If other people make a post not on topic of the OP (a derail) then that's bad. But if you do as well, that's okay because what you say is naturally more important, right?

[Mar-Evayave]

You mean for you right? Cause you automatically make exceptions for yourself. If other people make a post not on topic of the OP (a derail) then that's bad. But if you do as well, that's okay because what you say is naturally more important, right?

For anyone. If the thread is already derailed, there really isn't anything left to derail.

There are several people (myself, Bango, whisky, katia, Gerkin, Tarquin, and others) who have tried to get it back onto the rails by discussing the OP's original comments and the initial discussions that ensued.

So, if you support keeping threads on the rails (or getting them back on the rails after they have fallen off), please join us. Any thoughts on the lore-aspects of this thread's premise? Any opinions on the state of difficulty or the need (or lack thereof) for groups?

[Bulbous]

If the thread is already derailed, there really isn't anything left to derail.

I'm not so sure that the thread was "derailed" so much as continued past a logical conclusion. The initial post was proven to be flawed; as per Tolkien's writings, the Fellowship was broken. Frodo took the ring to Mount Doom with the accompaniment of Sam. I would not consider this team a "Duo" as much as I would consider Sam to be Frodo's skirmish soldier in what was a solo effort.

As far as the game goes, most people do not seem to have the time these days to organize group efforts. While such are still available, there were more people that were upset over forced grouping that upset about the lack thereof.

[bucko39]

I'm not so sure that the thread was "derailed" so much as continued past a logical conclusion...The initial post was proven to be flawed...

As far as the game goes, most people do not seem to have the time these days to organize group efforts. While such are still available, there were more people that were upset over forced grouping that upset about the lack thereof.

I love how you continue to try and moderate things.

And please...stop speaking for "most people"...as you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

[Snowlock]

For anyone. If the thread is already derailed, there really isn't anything left to derail.

There are several people (myself,

Not if you continue to derail it with this by baiting me. The self righteous schtick doesn't work on me, Mar. If you were truly concerned with the health of this thread, then what you would be doing is discussing it's topic, not further derailing it by discussing how it was derailed. What you're doing is tantamount to shouting "All you a-holes need to quit being a-holes!" Well you're just contributing to the shouting and name calling then, aren't you; no different from anyone you're looking down upon.

[whisky.11]

If you take some time, and look at the threads that are mostly positive about the current state of the game. You will notice that many, (not all), are from accounts that are less than 2 yrs old. As I commented before, these players should be happy with the current content, as that is all they know.
But for those of us who played prior to and during all of the massive changes, the game is broken for the most part. We would have more support on the raiding/old style game play, end of things if the founding players were still playing. But sadly that"s not the case. They have long since moved on to games that support their player base.
I have no problem with the "new" crowd loving the game as it is. But for the most part I have a ton more invested in this game than some of the negative, less knowledgeable players in this thread. That being said, it would be in turbines best interests to address their long term patrons in some form or another. But either they do not read these threads, or they no longer have the capacity to bring back some of the basic game play that kept the population buzzing.

It would be nice to have a Dev chime in once in a while, if for no other reason, to let us know they are paying attention.

[Mar-Evayave]

I'm not so sure that the thread was "derailed" so much as continued past a logical conclusion. The initial post was proven to be flawed; as per Tolkien's writings, the Fellowship was broken. Frodo took the ring to Mount Doom with the accompaniment of Sam. I would not consider this team a "Duo" as much as I would consider Sam to be Frodo's skirmish soldier in what was a solo effort.

As far as the game goes, most people do not seem to have the time these days to organize group efforts. While such are still available, there were more people that were upset over forced grouping that upset about the lack thereof.

As fun as the lore aspect was to joke about, as I have said before: any MMO that followed its lore so restrictively as that (to outright encourage duos and discourage large groups) would be destined for failure. IMO.

(As for the derail, when it gets down to bickering back and forth and trolling others, then it has stopped being about the conversation and more about the people involved in the conversation.)

Not if you continue to derail it with this by baiting me. The self righteous schtick doesn't work on me, Mar. If you were truly concerned with the health of this thread, then what you would be doing is discussing it's topic, not further derailing it by discussing how it was derailed. What you're doing is tantamount to shouting "All you a-holes need to quit being a-holes!" Well you're just contributing to the shouting and name calling then, aren't you; no different from anyone you're looking down upon.

Snowlock, please reread post #196, #201 and #203. In each post I am attempting to stop the derail and actually discuss the subject matter. You are deliberately trying to stop that from happening. I don't know why. I don't care why. The bait is not hanging in front of you, nor am I holding the fishing line. I say again: Any thoughts on the lore-aspects of this thread's premise? Any opinions on the state of difficulty or the need (or lack thereof) for groups?

[BBChild]

For anyone. If the thread is already derailed, there really isn't anything left to derail.

Well, you can either turn it back to it's original course or you can encourage it to stay derailed, so…

It would be in Turbine's best interests to address their long term patrons in some form or another. But either they do not read these threads, or they no longer have the capacity to bring back some of the basic game play that kept the population buzzing.

It would be nice to have a Dev chime in once in a while, if for no other reason, to let us know they are paying attention.

I agree. Long-term investors are far more important than waves of short-term customers. The problems the older players have with this game will eventually become problems the new players will have, anyway - it just takes them (us ^^) a bit longer to realize it since they have less experience with the game.