U19.1 - Endgame Raid Jewellery will be obsolete

[Elgrind]

Cmon, keep focus and lets try to reach page 40 please. Dont stop at what you/me/we are good in this thread.
We all are here to make this thread best ever in lotro/forum.
Keep going, we are very close to reach page 40 n Mordor

[BangoTwinkletoes]

Over in the land of Bioware and Star Wars, the Old Republic, release 5.0 - Knights of the Eternal Throne is going live today with a completely new gear progression system and allows access to the best gear regardless of content played. Crafting features heavily in this.

http://www.swtor.com/patchnotes

New System: Galactic Command! Adventure throughout the galaxy and earn progress towards the most powerful gear regardless of what content your play!

[siipperi]

Over in the land of Bioware and Star Wars, the Old Republic, release 5.0 - Knights of the Eternal Throne is going live today with a completely new gear progression system and allows access to the best gear regardless of content played. Crafting features heavily in this.

http://www.swtor.com/patchnotes

New System: Galactic Command! Adventure throughout the galaxy and earn progress towards the most powerful gear regardless of what content your play!

Not surprised bioware is making total Turbines to themselves. Old veterans raging at that casualness. It will be BB 2.0 and making game even more singleplayer game than it already is. But I guess raiding community in that game is already driven out like they did during 95 level here...

[BangoTwinkletoes]

Not surprised bioware is making total Turbines to themselves. Old veterans raging at that casualness. It will be BB 2.0 and making game even more singleplayer game than it already is. But I guess raiding community in that game is already driven out like they did during 95 level here...

The grind being introduced in 5.0 is considerable and they've not learned from Blizzard and how they implemented their Legendary Weapon progression catch-up system in WoW for alts etc. Will be interesting to see how things pan out.

[siipperi]

The grind being introduced in 5.0 is considerable and they've not learned from Blizzard and how they implemented their Legendary Weapon progression catch-up system in WoW for alts etc. Will be interesting to see how things pan out.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=897643

Quick googling, their forums under rage. Raiding doesn't matter, they killed whole grouping end game, apparently you need to be subscriber to get BiS gear, PvP requires PvE, RNG. So yeah... Their forums look like ours during late 85 and 95 levels where casuals tried to say this is best thing ever and actual groupers and raiders simply quit the dying game. So not really sure what adding that here does good. Example that other companies is F'ing it up as well? Well doesn't really help us, does it now.

[Joedangod]

You should send that question to Cordovan.

Arnenna states her personal opinion.This is not what you want, except ofcourse if you want to keep arguing with her. We all have different opinions on that subject, but at the end Turbine decides.

Arnenna doesn't state her opinion on the topic. Although if you backtrack she mentions a few times that she doesn't agree with having the flower jewellery surpass the raid jewellery like this. The issue is that she keeps posting here offering nothing but continued flawed arguments against people she technically agrees with but continues to bicker with. You're not getting anything constructive from a person like that.

[BangoTwinkletoes]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=897643

Quick googling, their forums under rage. Raiding doesn't matter, they killed whole grouping end game, apparently you need to be subscriber to get BiS gear, PvP requires PvE, RNG. So yeah... Their forums look like ours during late 85 and 95 levels where casuals tried to say this is best thing ever and actual groupers and raiders simply quit the dying game. So not really sure what adding that here does good. Example that other companies is F'ing it up as well? Well doesn't really help us, does it now.

You're bundling together a number of issues and, like a lot on the TOR forum, rolling into one "I hate casuals" rant. Providing access by to decent end game gear through supporting different play styles is a good idea. Putting crafting back into the mix for end-game gearing is also a good idea. What is not good is the sheer amount of grind and RNG that both casual & hardcore players will have to put up with and which is about as alt-unfriendly as one can get.

So, fingers crossed Bioware will put in means for alt catch ups and reduce the impact of RNG. But there are always going to be those who hate any idea of casuals getting access to the best gear.

[Joedangod]

But there are always going to be those who hate any idea of casuals getting access to the best gear.

The usual argument is more along the lines of: "The best gear should be pretty tough to get."
If a casual player works hard he should get it.

[siipperi]

You're bundling together a number of issues and, like a lot on the TOR forum, rolling into one "I hate casuals" rant. Providing access by to decent end game gear through supporting different play styles is a good idea. Putting crafting back into the mix for end-game gearing is also a good idea. What is not good is the sheer amount of grind and RNG that both casual & hardcore players will have to put up with and which is about as alt-unfriendly as one can get.

So, fingers crossed Bioware will put in means for alt catch ups and reduce the impact of RNG. But there are always going to be those who hate any idea of casuals getting access to the best gear.

Read the thread, just total fanboys are defending that system, rest are shouting it's terrible RNG grind (that actually requires players to sub in order to even participate) and real grouping/raiding end game is killed. But I guess that part doesn't matter to casuals. So they gear there for gearing sake unlike here where we geared to take down the raid, well still do but we have fundamental issues on stat strength of jewellery - but still not bad as there lol.

[Catburg]

Putting crafting back into the mix for end-game gearing is also a good idea. What is not good is the sheer amount of grind and RNG that both casual & hardcore players will have to put up with and which is about as alt-unfriendly as one can get.

So, fingers crossed Bioware will put in means for alt catch ups and reduce the impact of RNG.

Just my personal guesswork but I think you've got it right there. Over time the cumulative grind for all of what were once playable alts has got too much. People don't have the time and/or inclination to do all that grind and aren't putting their hands in their pockets to pay for store catch ups either. An unplayed alt isn't earning Turbine any money (no store purchases at all) and they overestimated what customers can and will do re the grind and store purchases. This whole flower thing is a BIG correction feature in my opinion.

[Arnenna]

You're bundling together a number of issues and, like a lot on the TOR forum, rolling into one "I hate casuals" rant. Providing access by to decent end game gear through supporting different play styles is a good idea. Putting crafting back into the mix for end-game gearing is also a good idea. What is not good is the sheer amount of grind and RNG that both casual & hardcore players will have to put up with and which is about as alt-unfriendly as one can get.

So, fingers crossed Bioware will put in means for alt catch ups and reduce the impact of RNG. But there are always going to be those who hate any idea of casuals getting access to the best gear.

This

123456

[Joedangod]

Just my personal guesswork but I think you've got it right there. Over time the cumulative grind for all of what were once playable alts has got too much. People don't have the time and/or inclination to do all that grind and aren't putting their hands in their pockets to pay for store catch ups either. An unplayed alt isn't earning Turbine any money (no store purchases at all) and they overestimated what customers can and will do re the grind and store purchases. This whole flower thing is a BIG correction feature in my opinion.

Probably should have added a requirement for people to buy the Qpack for that gear then.

[Catburg]

Probably should have added a requirement for people to buy the Qpack for that gear then.

I think that is quite reasonable. The fact that there seems to be no gating at all suggests it is some kind of emergency measure.

[Joedangod]

I think that is quite reasonable. The fact that there seems to be no gating at all suggests it is some kind of emergency measure.

Beats me what emergency this would be a reaction to. You don't just reduce the longevity of the current group content purely so that people can just rapidly get the best gear and then sit around doing little or nothing. If it had been one or two specific cases where flower related items were made superior to raid gear Turbine could've boosted the number of people running the raid without largely damaging the longevity of the raid as you would still need to do it for a lot of pieces.

[Catburg]

Beats me what emergency this would be a reaction to. You don't just reduce the longevity of the current group content purely so that people can just rapidly get the best gear and then sit around doing little or nothing. If it had been one or two specific cases where flower related items were made superior to raid gear Turbine could've boosted the number of people running the raid without largely damaging the longevity of the raid as you would still need to do it for a lot of pieces.

Yes, as soon as I'd posted I thought "emergency" was too strong a word but even so I can't help but feel this is a strong compensation to get something back on track (I know you're going to ask me what but I don't know it is just a feeling).

If you have a lot of hours, skills, friends and even to an extent money then it is easier to keep on top of the grind. Once you're out of the loop or start to lag behind it is hard to get back again and in my case I effectively ditched using some of my alts although I have kept them to level cap at least. Many of my alts were/are crafters that I enjoy noodling around on but given crafting is practically redundant too it is harder to motivate myself to use them.

How much time does your average customer have to play these days? How long can they play in one given session or can they only play in several short sessions? Whatever from a commercial point of view the motivation to do stuff needs to be sustainable by a critical mass of customers and the activities and accessibility to rewards has to match their lifestyles.

[Joedangod]

Yes, as soon as I'd posted I thought "emergency" was too strong a word but even so I can't help but feel this is a strong compensation to get something back on track (I know you're going to ask me what but I don't know it is just a feeling).

If you have a lot of hours, skills, friends and even to an extent money then it is easier to keep on top of the grind. Once you're out of the loop or start to lag behind it is hard to get back again and in my case I effectively ditched using some of my alts although I have kept them to level cap at least. Many of my alts were/are crafters that I enjoy noodling around on but given crafting is practically redundant too it is harder to motivate myself to use them.

How much time does your average customer have to play these days? How long can they play in one given session or can they only play in several short sessions? Whatever from a commercial point of view the motivation to do stuff needs to be sustainable by a critical mass of customers and the activities and accessibility to rewards has to match their lifestyles.

Catch up mechanics shouldn't exceed the top tier of items though, they should help you get a good portion of the way towards being raid geared but they shouldn't be better than the top stuff. If the new jewellery had been as much below the raid jewellery as it is currently above raiders would've complained a bit, sure, but they would not have complained to this extent since the jewellery would merely help you do the raid and not surpass the raid.

[Catburg]

Catch up mechanics shouldn't exceed the top tier of items though, they should help you get a good portion of the way towards being raid geared but they shouldn't be better than the top stuff. If the new jewellery had been as much below the raid jewellery as it is currently above raiders would've complained a bit, sure, but they would not have complained to this extent since the jewellery would merely help you do the raid and not surpass the raid.

To be honest I only saw the flower gear as better than I had, I had no clue it was near or surpassing raid gear until I saw these threads. No way will it contain best essences though, not that I'm actually bothered it will just better than I was wearing..

[Oelle]

if they had just made it itemlvl ~250 with just one essence-slot and decent stats... it would be really nice jewelry for casuals (which in many cases dont use the best essences and therefore dont get better gear with more essence-slots) and worse than raidgear and no one would have cried about it... *sigh*
it would be the fitting reward for the content thats done for it...

on the other hand: always nice to see how childish raiders can be if nonraiders are allowed to have better gear than them.
okay, its childish to point at them and laugh, too... but dont we all just play a game? whats wrong about being childish? :P

*helps getting to 40 pages with unwanted posts each ~10 pages*

see you at page50

[Nydhogg]

if they had just made it itemlvl ~250 with just one essence-slot and decent stats... it would be really nice jewelry for casuals (which in many cases dont use the best essences and therefore dont get better gear with more essence-slots) and worse than raidgear and no one would have cried about it... *sigh*

I also think casuals would have been happier with less essences to grind because I've seen most arguing that they just want a way to catch up and I completely agree with that.

This flower jewellery missed its purpose by not letting casuals easily catch up (still need essences) while still annoying raiders this "catch up" gear is better. (Whether that annoyance is justified or not you can read for yourself in these 40 pages.)

[Arnenna]

if they had just made it itemlvl ~250 with just one essence-slot and decent stats... it would be really nice jewelry for casuals (which in many cases dont use the best essences and therefore dont get better gear with more essence-slots) and worse than raidgear and no one would have cried about it... *sigh*
it would be the fitting reward for the content thats done for it...

on the other hand: always nice to see how childish raiders can be if nonraiders are allowed to have better gear than them.
okay, its childish to point at them and laugh, too... but dont we all just play a game? whats wrong about being childish? :P

*helps getting to 40 pages with unwanted posts each ~10 pages*

see you at page50

Absolutely. Most casual players I speak to, or see in the forum, want it to be as simple as possible with regards of what they need to slot together. I've seen many suggest even non essence gear. All they want is something new to work towards within the content style they prefer to play (and for most of them, that doesn't apply to flower picking), regardless of what else is in the game elsewhere.

The only criteria it needs, to qualify as new and something to work for is . . .
It needs to be better that what they previously worked for, on the last update. Their overall stats need to rise because of it. The less essences that need to go into it, the better it is for the casual player, but it has to be worth working for. If it doesn't improve their build from what they previously worked for, there is no point in even bothering to develop it, as nobody will want it.

That's it. That's all it needs to be, for them to have something new to work for, that is worth working for, and thats all they ask for. I've never seen a casual player step up and ask for anything better than raid gear. Not once. They only ever ask for things to work for, that is better than what they previously worked for, though that is often met with the same attitude we see in here and incidentally, from the same faces we see in here for most part.

We disagree on the second point. I don't think its nice to see this side of raiders coming out. It's only a small few, granted, but it puts such a poor light on things that people can often apply it to all, when the vast majority of raiders aren't like that at all. One good thing came out of this thread though, and that's Turbines decision to step up and be counted in the discussion. It was unusual to see, but most welcome IMO. From that moment onward, when we see the usual faces throw their toys in future if a casual player even suggests something in game to work for (examples, slightly better than what they had gear, non essence gear, a pet), it can now fall on deaf ears when certain people bust their spleen over it. People now know, that Turbine don't agree with the reasons behind that toy throwing.

[Catburg]

Absolutely. Most casual players I speak to, or see in the forum, want it to be as simple as possible with regards of what they need to slot together. I've seen many suggest even non essence gear. All they want is something new to work towards within the content style they prefer to play (and for most of them, that doesn't apply to flower picking), regardless of what else is in the game elsewhere.

The only criteria it needs, to qualify as new and something to work for is . . .
It needs to be better that what they previously worked for, on the last update. Their overall stats need to rise because of it. The less essences that need to go into it, the better it is for the casual player, but it has to be worth working for. If it doesn't improve their build from what they previously worked for, there is no point in even bothering to develop it, as nobody will want it.

That's it. That's all it needs to be, for them to have something new to work for, that is worth working for, and thats all they ask for. I've never seen a casual player step up and ask for anything better than raid gear. Not once. They only ever ask for things to work for, that is better than what they previously worked for, though that is often met with the same attitude we see in here and incidentally, from the same faces we see in here for most part.

We disagree on the second point. I don't think its nice to see this side of raiders coming out. It's only a small few, granted, but it puts such a poor light on things that people can often apply it to all, when the vast majority of raiders aren't like that at all. One good thing came out of this thread though, and that's Turbines decision to step up and be counted in the discussion. It was unusual to see, but most welcome IMO. From that moment onward, when we see the usual faces throw their toys in future if a casual player even suggests something in game to work for (examples, slightly better than what they had gear, non essence gear, a pet), it can now fall on deaf ears when certain people bust their spleen over it. People now know, that Turbine don't agree with the reasons behind that toy throwing.

Pretty fair summation.

What some people don't get is that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar and telling people "they are not worthy" is only going to get their backs up, similarly telling people they are snobs doesn't help for good relations either.

[Joedangod]

We disagree on the second point. I don't think its nice to see this side of raiders coming out. It's only a small few, granted, but it puts such a poor light on things that people can often apply it to all, when the vast majority of raiders aren't like that at all. One good thing came out of this thread though, and that's Turbines decision to step up and be counted in the discussion. It was unusual to see, but most welcome IMO. From that moment onward, when we see the usual faces throw their toys in future if a casual player even suggests something in game to work for (examples, slightly better than what they had gear, non essence gear, a pet), it can now fall on deaf ears when certain people bust their spleen over it. People now know, that Turbine don't agree with the reasons behind that toy throwing.

Honestly, just walk away.

No raider has ever denied that landscape only players need to have something to work towards. You just keep saying that that is the issue raiders have. You are trolling this thread and you are fully aware of it.

[Elgrind]

*helps getting to 40 pages with unwanted posts each ~10 pages*

see you at page50

Thank you for your support in our thread goal. Atm we are just aiming to 40pages
That is a first goal of this thread. We can see if we can keep it up to pages 50 or not.

Off topics and hints for all supporters in this thread:

LOTR/LOTRO is all about evil/bad jewells ("hint: rings ot the Lord of the Rings" ) and how people around behaving.
This flowers jewells are just showing the true picture of sentence above.

People are clueless, where is the source of that evil jewells coming "hint: making money"
Causual: 2slots jewells/FI armour "hint: 3 slot = more solvents in store"
Raider: need BiS items "hint: reclam.scrolls in store"
Turbine: money and new ferrari "hint: Lotro Store"
Both side: time "hint: wasting"
Evil side: win "hint: Turbine"

Off topic ends
Have nice maintance/update time. See you in game soon

[Jillymala]

Raider: need BiS items "hint: reclam.scrolls in store"

If raiders are buying reclamation scrolls in the store then they aren't very good/savvy raiders.

Just saying, argument debunked.

[Joedangod]

If raiders are buying reclamation scrolls in the store then they aren't very good/savvy raiders.

Just saying, argument debunked.

I actually got bored of farming 2 full sets of ithilien morale essences for both my tanks so I started just buying tons of reclamation scrolls from the skirm camp and repeatedly swap the essences between the character I feel like playing.