Follow up to new Global Balance Changes?

[ColMcStacky]

I was originally going to post this in the thread for the Global Balance Changes, but as I put more thought into this, it seems like it would be more of a derail to that thread than something that adds constructively.

First things first, these changes (especially the mastery ones) are honestly one of the best first steps that could have happened in terms of balance if you ask me, so thank you, Vastin! In retrospect though, this type of stat overhaul would have been much better suited before six classes went through the first stage of class changes, that way you could then choose the classes that suffer the most from the stat-scheme that was being used, and work on those first. As it is now, the classes already worked on will probably require a rework in the near future (especially since the work on them wasn't finished in the first place).

One thing I noticed being absent, which I hope is addressed in a follow-up balance pass, is the creeping critical magnitude that we have these days some classes still have skills that crit harder than the dev (champs for one), and realistically, this is something that needs to be addressed alongside partial avoidances/finesse changes (if those ever do come). Much of this issue comes from legacies that were anywhere from +10% to +25% pre-imbument, but are now sitting at upwards of close to +80% critical damage. It is going to be hard to balance the dps of certain classes because of all of the variables involved in getting a maximal parse due to differences in legacies/traits/gear/positioning/etc. The critical/devastating magnitude for different classes is different, and sometimes is even different on the same class for different types of skills/different damage types (LM for example has +78% fire critical damage); classes experience different levels of avoidances when attacking the same enemy; not all damage-types are equal in all content; also, some classes have mitigation bypasses that help the group while others only work for the character using the bypass. I'm sure there are other factors that I'm missing, but if you ask me, these need to be given a serious look, and balanced across all classes.

Now to clarify, I'm not advocating for all classes to be made cookie-cutters of each other, but simply for their strengths and weaknesses to stay closer with respect to what other classes have. The biggest issue currently is the discrepancy between different damage-types. After that, I would probably say partial avoidances. These discrepancies aren't a bad thing, but the difference in dps between them should result in similar output after the builds/rotations are optimized. In an ideal world, this would result in allowing individual dps to simply be scaled by a rough multiplier as group-size increases for all classes, as opposed to what we have now where certain classes get a much higher multiplier to their dps than others once they are in a group.

I may revisit this in a followup post with my ideas on how to adjust this, but right now it's late and I'm tired of looking at a computer screen.

Anyone have any thoughts or ideas regarding what I said here? Have your own suggestions on the best way to fix this? Disagree with me completely?

[Oelle]

if all damage types were equal in all content, then what reason should there be to have different damage types?

[Vastin]

I'm actually hoping to do a broad pass to re-balance damage types relative to each other later this year, though that may be my unwarranted optimism creeping up on me.

-Vastin

[ColMcStacky]

if all damage types were equal in all content, then what reason should there be to have different damage types?

Because all damage types wont be equal in all content, they will just have an equal baseline damage output in group content. Instances can then be scaled to have mechanics which are more favorable to some damage types over others like they have now with fire/common damage reflects to give an example.

Instances have been rather unforgiving of melee classes lately, so as an incentive to bring melee classes, damage can be scaled up slightly for some types like Beleriand for example. There could be situations where an enemy takes extra light/lightning damage also, incentivizing Wardens over Champs, Hunters go with light oils, and RKs to run yellow-line (obviously after class balances where yellow line will hopefully be balanced with red). There could be bosses with kiting mechanics, but make the enemies take extra melee damage to then incentivize melee classes, etc. There could even be situations where a boss takes more/less damage from different damage types depending on what phase of the fight you are in (think Halls of Crafting or Forgotten Treasury Uruk-hai).

Once damage types are balanced with one another in group content, it opens the door for different ideas to be implemented in the game rather than having a lack of balance getting in the way.

I'm actually hoping to do a broad pass to re-balance damage types relative to each other later this year, though that may be my unwarranted optimism creeping up on me.

-Vastin

Anything you do on that front would be greatly appreciated, even if it was only for a few at a time (balancing Fire with Beleriand for example). Personally, I just think fire damage is the outlier from what I can tell, with the rest of the damage types being in decent balance. Two ways I see of correcting this are to wind back fire debuffs (nerfing fire damage), or introducing specific debuffs for other damage types (using current Fire debuff magnitudes as a baseline). The former probably being the easier solution, but the latter being the more interesting one from a gameplay perspective in my opinion.

I would just caution that dealing with other mechanics, I think, would be a better idea first, such as things I mentioned in the OP, especially partial avoidances and critical multipliers. Once classes are more consistent with one another's dps in solo situations, then having fun with a damage type rework would go very smoothly. Although to be fair, I don't know any of the back end of the game, just the end result. I'm sure you've put some thought into the best way to handle these things already.

[rondomir]

Instances have been rather unforgiving of melee classes lately, so as an incentive to bring melee classes, damage can be scaled up slightly for some types like Beleriand for example. There could be situations where an enemy takes extra light/lightning damage also, incentivizing Wardens over Champs, Hunters go with light oils, and RKs to run yellow-line (obviously after class balances where yellow line will hopefully be balanced with red).

This shows a problem more with instance design than with damage types, IMO.

And it's not just melee unfriendliness. Think of Dulgabeth in CoS and the hatred mechanic for example. RK has to go either lightning there and drag out the fight due the class imbalance you mentiond. Or the group has to deal with his buff due to the dots. (or just burn before he has a chance to raise the buff - which is hardly a proper mechanic to design a fight for)

Another thing to keep in mind regarding instance design is the reflect mechanics you refer too. Right now on live dot classes like rk, but equally a yellow champion using rend or even a red champion traited for deep strikes, can easily kill themselves even if they stop doing direct damage to bosses that have reflect. Adding more fights like these makes the instance even more skewed toward classes that are already preferred for dps role nowadays.

Personally, I just think fire damage is the outlier from what I can tell, with the rest of the damage types being in decent balance. Two ways I see of correcting this are to wind back fire debuffs (nerfing fire damage

Compared to the situation on live, I don't see a blanket fire damage nerf as viable. RK has been hit badly by the damage rune nerf and unless the situation changed dramatically on BR, it can't take another nerf right now.

[ColMcStacky]

This shows a problem more with instance design than with damage types, IMO.

If you ask me, damage types should be an integral part of instance design, as most classes can choose between at least two (with the exclusion of Champs, Beornings, and Burgs). For Beornings, I couldn't tell you since they are still "in beta" four years after their inception, but Champs and Burgs can still be made desirable even if the mechanics on the boss are detrimental to the use of beleriand and/or melee damage. For champs, just introduce adds that take extra melee damage, problem solved. Maybe even give them a ranged/tactical reflect that shows up on occasion for good measure (depending on group-size). For Burgs, they still contribute plenty with Reveal Weakness if you ask me, even in red/blue, and in yellow, they have much more going on where not being able to do damage for a certain amount of time won't be all that much of a detriment to the group. Really, that would just be an argument to use yellow Burg more often in instances if you ask me.

Another thing to keep in mind regarding instance design is the reflect mechanics you refer too. Right now on live dot classes like rk, but equally a yellow champion using rend or even a red champion traited for deep strikes, can easily kill themselves even if they stop doing direct damage to bosses that have reflect. Adding more fights like these makes the instance even more skewed toward classes that are already preferred for dps role nowadays.

I was just pointing it out as a current mechanic that is dependent on damage types, not trying to show any preference to it, as I agree, reflect magnitudes need to be looked at considering the amount of damage we are doing now relative to our max morale. Certain damage types, in my opinion, should have lower reflects than others, specifically ones that align with DoT classes; fire and light reflects (if light reflects do exist) should be of a lower magnitude than, say, a common-damage reflect. A few years ago, they nerfed the Spider reflect in the moors to only work on initial ticks, not on DoTs. If you ask me, for damage types like fire/light which happen to be from bleeds more often than not, there are two choices - have them only reflect initial ticks and give the reflect a higher magnitude for those damage types, or reflect all DoTs at a very low magnitude.

And it's not just melee unfriendliness. Think of Dulgabeth in CoS and the hatred mechanic for example. RK has to go either lightning there and drag out the fight due the class imbalance you mentiond. Or the group has to deal with his buff due to the dots. (or just burn before he has a chance to raise the buff - which is hardly a proper mechanic to design a fight for)

And about Dulgabeth, that is a very good point. He should similarly only tier up on initial ticks if the fight was to be truly balanced for all classes, maybe absorbing damage while his Hatred buff tiers up to prevent DoT classes from having an edge there. The fight should have been balanced with red RK in mind since when the instance was released, yellow was (and still is) fairly irrelevant. Also, while kind of on the subject, the stun in the final boss fight from Kilnat should just not exist if you ask me. He should just spawn bats much faster instead, that way Champs/Wardens(/LM AoE? ) would be more welcome there.

Compared to the situation on live, I don't see a blanket fire damage nerf as viable. RK has been hit badly by the damage rune nerf and unless the situation changed dramatically on BR, it can't take another nerf right now.

At the moment, this is true. Fire debuffs really shouldn't be nerfed before RKs at least get a buff to dps, if not a whole rebalance. If you ask me, the two should go hand-in-hand. When RKs get their balance pass, that's when fire debuffs should also be nerfed. The two just have to be fixed at the same time, in the same balance pass. I was just trying to be more succinct, as I know I can be a bit wordy when I post.