So... Why is the Redhorn Pass Still Closed?

[Phantion]

Hi!

I very much enjoy the world-building and expanding Dimrill Dale for U-30. I have a question mainly for the regular, present TA (as in, level 60) version of the zone:

Why oh why is the Redhorn Pass still closed when this is the first time you're revisiting this area in... a very long time? I mean, the Vales of Anduin connection was nice, but it would really make a lot more sense to "phase" the "Falling Ice" avalanche somehow and just give players a quest for Dwarves to reclaim the area (a la Galtrev) and dig open the Pass of Caradhras again.

Please consider doing this at this point; I had very high hopes the pass would be opened by mentioning Eregion on one of the maps, and I'm very sorry those were unfounded. The Fellowship has already been through Moria by the time we, players, get through Moria. Let players help reopen the pass so that it's all ready and believable for when Galadriel and company return via that route RE- the "Homeward Bound" chapter of ROTK later on. It's just absurd at this point to keep that path closed.

I'd really love to just be able to ride from Eregion to Lothlorien directly and vice versa! It's also silly to worry about players who haven't started Moria yet because, well, with 1 little Mithril Coin, you can by-pass all of that Moria Intro anyway. So, might as well open it up and just put some level 60 ranged mobs on the pass to make it very hard to get-through if below level 55 if that's still a concern.

Thanks for listening! Cheers!

[Dovakhim]

/Seconded

[SingularityNow]

Curiously, I dont't think the worldbuilders have ever really valued a single contiguous map with lots of avenues for travel and exploration. Like the Anduin, with its line of death at S. Mirkwood and rapids in front of Argonath. And then when they do make connections they feel sloppy:

• Ford of Isen: You skip over meters across the connection and on the west side you go from everything burning to suddenly being whole again, and you do that by hitting a tree for some reason.
• Wastes to Dead Marshes: Skipping over landscape again, plus the ambient line changes immediately upon crossing.
• Vales of Anduin to Redhorn: Skipping over landscape, doesn't really explain how you got across
• Northern High Pass: Skipping over landscape, ambient lighting changes (and weather), landscape on either side of the portal doesn't match
• Beacon Hills: Skipping over landscape and super jarring ambient light changes.
• Pre/Post Battle of Minas Tirith at Crossroads - Heading into Ithilien - Probably the best portal, it's got the ambient issue, but everything else makes sense visually.
• Pre/Post Battle of Minas Tirith at Crossroads - Heading west - a bit more jarring ambient light issue
• Good old Shire to Ered Luin - At least skipping the tower hills feels seemless if you're not paying attention, but I think a more contiguous world was more highly valued back then

[Scenario]

Each of our regions is considered "time locked" in terms of the content and landscape within it. The Redhorn Pass in Eregion is blocked by an inclement situation as part of the story of LOTR and LOTRO. Eregion is time-locked in this state - which means that we can't open up the pass without significantly changing the story.

You can cross from Vales of Anduin into Eregion - and stand atop the avalanche - but you can't go the other way.

We strive for a contiguous world, at least as far as we can within the bounds of the "time-locked" concept and within the restrictions of our own technology (teleports between heightmaps - which are necessary). We are beholden to the stories we are telling, and hope that the players can suspend their disbelief a bit knowing that we are making the decisions we make in order to be respectful of the setting we are working within, and respectful of the stories we ourselves are telling.

We aren't done connecting the territories of Midde-earth! You can expect at least one more connection between Eriador and Rhovanion later this year!

[SingularityNow]

Each of our regions is considered "time locked" in terms of the content and landscape within it.

I'd urge you to let go of the time locked concept. It's one of those things where yeah, we get it, it would be cooler to have the whole world available. It seems like just kind of a convenience because other solutions in terms of portals, instances and phasing would be more expensive and/or difficult.

[BinaryTertiary]

We aren't done connecting the territories of Midde-earth! You can expect at least one more connection between Eriador and Rhovanion later this year!

so the path around "rift".....huh.

[Galuhad]

so the path around "rift".....huh.

My thoughts exactly, which would make the most sense for Gundabad.

[Phantion]

Each of our regions is considered "time locked" in terms of the content and landscape within it. The Redhorn Pass in Eregion is blocked by an inclement situation as part of the story of LOTR and LOTRO. Eregion is time-locked in this state - which means that we can't open up the pass without significantly changing the story.

You can cross from Vales of Anduin into Eregion - and stand atop the avalanche - but you can't go the other way.

We strive for a contiguous world, at least as far as we can within the bounds of the "time-locked" concept and within the restrictions of our own technology (teleports between heightmaps - which are necessary). We are beholden to the stories we are telling, and hope that the players can suspend their disbelief a bit knowing that we are making the decisions we make in order to be respectful of the setting we are working within, and respectful of the stories we ourselves are telling.

We aren't done connecting the territories of Midde-earth! You can expect at least one more connection between Eriador and Rhovanion later this year!

Thank you so much for responding! I really appreciate it and all the work you do! I guess part of it is that I really loved the "Blood of Azog" expansion of that Pass a bit more upward and was sorry to see even those newish elements were still carved-off by the avalanche in the TA 3019 version. I get it though: that quest with those Orcs has been long in place with the avalanche.

I do have an idea for a work-around you could consider: What about a set-apart "instanced" area like Zirakzigil? It wouldn't be large or extensive. I am thinking of the books you have us click to enter the older Azog version of Dimrill Dale. You could even consider simply expanding on the current Moria Zirakzigil map with winding, narrow paths up and down the mountainside to do this.

The idea is this, to get-around the time-locked problem while keeping all storylines intact: what if an NPC in Erebor gave us a quest to see if the Redhorn pass is open? As a little gag, in this concept, you'd place an actual red horn on a pole that you right-click-on (like a summoning horn) just below and out of view of the avalanche site before advancing forward. This new, small "instanced" area would then be named "The Redhorn Pass of Caradhras," (or would simply be part of the extent Zirakzigil map) and it would include the traversible copy of the new Azog area expanding on the pass, and it would include the vale that Tolkien describes that we see just below Zirakzigil from the Moria map, and after crossing that, we would click on the "Redhorn clicky-object" on the opposite end, opening up the pass and completing the quest on the Eregion side. Maybe its to send a message to the Gemcutters we met with the Grey Company or something

Of course, this instanced area would also get us between the "Rhovanion" and "Eriador" maps with the clicky-objects acting as "enter / exit" waypoint portals on either side.

To get back and forth, then, all one would do, after completing the level 130 quest, would be to just click the Redhorn clicky-object near the top of each side of the Pass. Could throw some challenging stone giants to hurl stones and more frost grims and goblins to make it exciting in the middle!

But, that would be what I'd think of as a fair balance between respecting the story / time-locked nature of an area while also opening up some more possibilities. By making it a level 130 quest, a below-cap person could not pass through the Redhorn, the story contiguity would be maintained, etc. Meanwhile, opening up the pass for level 130+ players by means of a separate instance unlocked with a quest would also make Galadriel and Celeborn's eventual return home by that same route make some more sense, and it would also really help with the current storyline in Black Book with Gandalf taking Isildur's remains back to Rivendell also

Anyways, that's just my creativity on a roll there- feel free to take it or leave it, I certainly understand I very much appreciate the next forthcoming portal out of Gundabad for landscape contiguity!

I also want to just thank you so much for all the awesomeness you've done to Dimrill Dale, especially on the Zirakzigil side! Those views of lands stretching down to Fangorn are amazing! I also really hope you'll consider finishing the trail of the new Great Way someday, into those lands we can see now; it would be very cool to follow the Misties from Dimrill Dale southwest along the mountains to the western sides of Wailing Hills, Limlight Gorge, Balewood, and Entwood eventually

[Hallandil]

Each of our regions is considered "time locked" in terms of the content and landscape within it. The Redhorn Pass in Eregion is blocked by an inclement situation as part of the story of LOTR and LOTRO. Eregion is time-locked in this state - which means that we can't open up the pass without significantly changing the story.

You can cross from Vales of Anduin into Eregion - and stand atop the avalanche - but you can't go the other way.

We strive for a contiguous world, at least as far as we can within the bounds of the "time-locked" concept and within the restrictions of our own technology (teleports between heightmaps - which are necessary). We are beholden to the stories we are telling, and hope that the players can suspend their disbelief a bit knowing that we are making the decisions we make in order to be respectful of the setting we are working within, and respectful of the stories we ourselves are telling.

We aren't done connecting the territories of Midde-earth! You can expect at least one more connection between Eriador and Rhovanion later this year!

I understand that this is clearly from a story-telling standpoint both of the landscape design team and MoLs desire to weave the adaptation and expansion of Tolkien's work into the game.

Not that this is something that would be touched upon by yourself as a level designer, but it appears that systems and endgame seem to have this same habit which I belive is making the game suffer.
For the actual *game* elements of LOTRO, i.e. Loot, Stats, Items and Combat- the majority of "content" in the games current state is padded around the most recent addition to the story.
This worked for the most part back during Shadows of Angmar due to the relatively small size of the game, meanwhile it seems counter intuitive with all the additions that were made between 2009-2012.

Items and Loot from previous years of the game have been stripped and "cast into the fire" as they either a) incentivise playing older content b) would draw development work away from maximum level.
As a result, content from these older portions of the game have become hollow shells of themselves.

Due to changes in crafting, legendary items and the introduction of Motes/Embers the skirmish camp has become redundant to long-term players despite the majority of scaled content only handing out Marks and Medallions.

These issues have been shown in the full light of day on the Legendary Server, as when these level ranges are reached- There's no incentive or draw to the instance content beyond an initial completion for deeds.

For example, Anor is current at level 105. Beyond the Featured Instance quest, there is no reason to run Quays/Blood/Silent Street as Osgiliath remains the faster way to obtain Morgul Crests. Originally, the intances were desirable for the armour they dropped- but with the set bonuses removed they retain lower stats than gear one can obtain by gathering flowers.
Additionally, a special reward for completing Silent Street on Challenge Mode was the "Hilt of Earnil"- a pocket item with a morale bubble. Unfortunately, with the removal of the set bonuses gear there is no way to actually make use of the rewards bonuses as it requires a player to have the 6-set bonus equipped from items that no longer exist.


With these issues in mind, as the story of the game advances, of course players will naturally cluster at the highest level ranges, but it feels as though SSG is encouraging it for the sake of expansion/pack sales.

[Dovakhim]

Thank you so much for responding! I really appreciate it and all the work you do! I guess part of it is that I really loved the "Blood of Azog" expansion of that Pass a bit more upward and was sorry to see even those newish elements were still carved-off by the avalanche in the TA 3019 version. I get it though: that quest with those Orcs has been long in place with the avalanche.

I do have an idea for a work-around you could consider: What about a set-apart "instanced" area like Zirakzigil? It wouldn't be large or extensive. I am thinking of the books you have us click to enter the older Azog version of Dimrill Dale. You could even consider simply expanding on the current Moria Zirakzigil map with winding, narrow paths up and down the mountainside to do this.

The idea is this, to get-around the time-locked problem while keeping all storylines intact: what if an NPC in Erebor gave us a quest to see if the Redhorn pass is open? As a little gag, in this concept, you'd place an actual red horn on a pole that you right-click-on (like a summoning horn) just below and out of view of the avalanche site before advancing forward. This new, small "instanced" area would then be named "The Redhorn Pass of Caradhras," (or would simply be part of the extent Zirakzigil map) and it would include the traversible copy of the new Azog area expanding on the pass, and it would include the vale that Tolkien describes that we see just below Zirakzigil from the Moria map, and after crossing that, we would click on the "Redhorn clicky-object" on the opposite end, opening up the pass and completing the quest on the Eregion side. Maybe its to send a message to the Gemcutters we met with the Grey Company or something

Of course, this instanced area would also get us between the "Rhovanion" and "Eriador" maps with the clicky-objects acting as "enter / exit" waypoint portals on either side.

To get back and forth, then, all one would do, after completing the level 130 quest, would be to just click the Redhorn clicky-object near the top of each side of the Pass. Could throw some challenging stone giants to hurl stones and more frost grims and goblins to make it exciting in the middle!

But, that would be what I'd think of as a fair balance between respecting the story / time-locked nature of an area while also opening up some more possibilities. By making it a level 130 quest, a below-cap person could not pass through the Redhorn, the story contiguity would be maintained, etc. Meanwhile, opening up the pass for level 130+ players by means of a separate instance unlocked with a quest would also make Galadriel and Celeborn's eventual return home by that same route make some more sense, and it would also really help with the current storyline in Black Book with Gandalf taking Isildur's remains back to Rivendell also

Anyways, that's just my creativity on a roll there- feel free to take it or leave it, I certainly understand I very much appreciate the next forthcoming portal out of Gundabad for landscape contiguity!

I also want to just thank you so much for all the awesomeness you've done to Dimrill Dale, especially on the Zirakzigil side! Those views of lands stretching down to Fangorn are amazing! I also really hope you'll consider finishing the trail of the new Great Way someday, into those lands we can see now; it would be very cool to follow the Misties from Dimrill Dale southwest along the mountains to the western sides of Wailing Hills, Limlight Gorge, Balewood, and Entwood eventually

Those are excellent suggestions!

Scenario, are you still reading?

Many people want regions connected, including myself - and the above suggestions solve all the problems you listed in one go.

Stop attempting to save resources in all the wrong places - this stuff brings / loses you paying customers.

[Phantion]

Those are excellent suggestions!

Scenario, are you still reading?

Many people want regions connected, including myself - and the above suggestions solve all the problems you listed in one go.

Stop attempting to save resources in all the wrong places - this stuff brings / loses you paying customers.

Thank you! I hope Scenario reads my post!

I want to make 1 revision of what I wrote: I had suggested using the current Zirakzigil map. In retrospect, that wouldn't really work because that's a level 59 map.


But there's nothing that could stop Scenario, aside from time, energy, and resources (*hehehehe I know that's hard to come by!), from considering a "Level 130" connector-instance that is a quest-gated, instanced version of the Redhorn Pass with clicky-objects to move you from the Dimrill Stair on the Lothlorien side, into the Pass itself and across, then back into Eregion to come down on the western side. It wouldn't interfere with current portals, waypoints, or anything, and it wouldn't interfere with established storylines either.

It would be it's own thing connected to both sets of coordinates on the Eriador and Rhovanion sides of the Redhorn Pass with lower-level characters completely unaware or unable to access its existence; ah, the wonders of a clicky-object portal! It would be like accessing the Allegiance Hall of the King where you have the two versions of the After-Battle Citadel with 1 of them quest-gated, except with this, there'd be two entrances/exits instead of one.

Fortunately, the Redhorn Pass, from what I could see looking down from Zirakzigil, really isn't that huge of an area! It looks like its the distance between... Michel Delving and the Shire Homesteads? I think Thorin's Gate would turn-out much larger in comparison!

Cheers!

[Dovakhim]

...

Non-reaction to this not good reaction.

[Thruili]

I just want to point out, that the pass which leads to the Gladdenmere is not the Redhorn Gate. The Fellowship of the Ring states:
'...while others had climbed the pass at the sources of the Gladden River, and had come down into Wilderland and over the Gladden Fields and so at length had reached the old home of Radagast at Rhosgobel. Radagast was not there; and they had returned over the high pass that was called the Redhorn Gate.'
According to Tolkien's map the pass should be located slightly north of the Hollin Ridge, which would then come down into Pend Eregion and not to the avalanche of the Redhorn Gate. The eastern ramp of this particular pass is the Dimrill Stair located near the east gate of Moria. And most parts south east of the road in Pend Eregion are inaccessible anyway, so it would be a good place for the developers to create a proper pass over the Misty Mountains leading to the Gladden Fields.