Rohan and mounted combat

[OldMadeOfLions]

PLEASE do not remove it.

Definitely not removing it! Making certain enemies during particular quests be less resistant to damage is more along the lines of what I was thinking.

MoL

[maartena]

Definitely not removing it!

Glad to hear this!

[Braer]

The issue really isn't doing more damage it's the mounted character's (player's) ability to avoid taking damage and those dismounting mob skills.

Fury building doesn't help when you should be tucked in behind the straggler at their speed not one that builds fury and has several mobs on your tail. Do lions have more sense than the average player? No, I hope, but we should pick up some pointers, they aren't about to go head to head with anything with horns. Unless the killing blow of an exposed throat, is up.

Target choice is the next important matter. For soloing Bugud at 85 you're going to have to have where Bugud is on the field in mind at all times but he's melee mounted and shielded the rest on foot, might need a pot or two if I remember, so you have to scarper out of his way when he comes anywhere close. It's the two ranged mobs you are getting down circling around to keep the other melee mobs from reaching you so it's only the pew pew that hurts. After that each melee mob 'til the shield is down. All the time with an eye on where Bugud is. If you've gotten too close and taken too much damage at any stage after the ranged mobs are down then take your self a distance away to dismount and remount uninterrupted with a healthy horse. When Bugud is alone and the shield has gone it's time to switch to whatever stance gets you the best chance to dismount him. Again a brief ride off to remount if you take too many hits. Once you have him off it's a choice to keep up the slow distance dps mounted or if you can, go toe to toe with him. The dismounts are why bridles are so critical. What you invest in them gives you more wiggle room to survive. Levelling LIs from 50+ to decon might get you enough to make a difference with the relics.

Compare with Conog in Wildermore where it's imperative you bring all your group's dismount abilities to bare from the start as he's so resistant and keep them going as he's apt to re-mount and shred your fellow.

Kramp with all mobs mounted is more like the classic Top gun dog fight and again the dismount ability is key to avoiding damage, great for a yellow stance mini on light steed due to AE dismounts to chain. Build up to coda on other mobs if you can... after all are down switch to red/blue as required for damage or heals. It's all about attacking from behind i.e. not being in the crosshairs.

Every tougher warband seems to have some distinctive AI and you only work it out by trying and learning to do better the next time.

You can go medium and sacrifice when you have the morale pool for it and that's not Rohan.

[Mollymixtures]

It's all well and good that those who enjoy it argue that it shouldn't be changed and that removing it will only turn players into delicate little snowflakes, and yadda, yadda, because I am sure their latency is nice and low, otherwise I doubt they'd be so enthusiastic! But if you play outside the US and likely have serious issues with lag, mounted combat becomes nigh-on unplayable. There were some occasions where delay was so bad I'd find myself halfway across a field in the matter of seconds after a lag-spike, confused and frustrated as to where the hell I've ended up. It makes times where delicacy and accuracy are needed, a joke. Some mounted quests, especially the ones that cannot be avoided, are already a painful ordeal before latency is even taken into account. The one I think that's already been mentioned - I believe it's Thrymm at the gates fighting several enemies with health-pools that seem inexhaustible, that can hit like trucks to boot - could do with being toned way down. Trying to hit-and-run something that can end the quest for me very quickly if I'm not careful, whilst suffering long delays, brings me no joy at all. That quest alone has put me off ever attempting Wildemore a second time.

[Sovereign50]

It's all well and good that those who enjoy it argue that it shouldn't be changed and that removing it will only turn players into delicate little snowflakes, and yadda, yadda, because I am sure their latency is nice and low, otherwise I doubt they'd be so enthusiastic! But if you play outside the US and likely have serious issues with lag, mounted combat becomes nigh-on unplayable. There were some occasions where delay was so bad I'd find myself halfway across a field in the matter of seconds after a lag-spike, confused and frustrated as to where the hell I've ended up. It makes times where delicacy and accuracy are needed, a joke. Some mounted quests, especially the ones that cannot be avoided, are already a painful ordeal before latency is even taken into account. The one I think that's already been mentioned - I believe it's Thrymm at the gates fighting several enemies with health-pools that seem inexhaustible, that can hit like trucks to boot - could do with being toned way down. Trying to hit-and-run something that can end the quest for me very quickly if I'm not careful, whilst suffering long delays, brings me no joy at all. That quest alone has put me off ever attempting Wildemore a second time.

The amount of rubber banding is (still) insane. As always the ones talking the loudest don't speak for everyone (or even for most people), and the system has serious issues and always has. I don't want mounted combat removed, but warsteeds need to be changed into regular (albeit slightly larger, faster and customisable) steeds. I wouldn't even hazard a guess at whether this is even possible with the current engine.

[Mollymixtures]

The amount of rubber banding is (still) insane. As always the ones talking the loudest don't speak for everyone (or even for most people), and the system has serious issues and always has. I don't want mounted combat removed, but warsteeds need to be changed into regular (albeit slightly larger, faster and customisable) steeds. I wouldn't even hazard a guess at whether this is even possible with the current engine.

Even if it is changeable, I doubt much of anything would be done, which is a real shame, because I can see it putting people off if it stays the way it is, especially with server problems only seeming to get worse year upon year. Speaking personally, from the beginning of Rohan to the end, I have have had to avoid MC altogether and tried my best to dodge the mounted mobs spread thicker than I'd like throughout some regions. It doesn't help that they zip around like crazy, making an encounter inevitable. Then it's just a case of watching the fight play out as if I'm viewing it through a zoetrope. The only way I have of travelling through those areas is on a regular mount anyway, unless I want to experience constant freezes. Whenever I get one of those it's not uncommon when they finally resolve themselves to find that, while I've had no control whatsoever, my poor character has barged their way through a nest of god only knows what and is now being tailed by a veritable bridal-train of mobs.

I was actually looking forward to Rohan before I got there and tried it out. Now I am seriously considering leveling my next character through Elderslade quests, despite finding them tedious.

I agree that the system has serious problems, and I haven't even reached Gondor yet. If it's anything like Rohan, I am going to struggle all over again.

[miss_tessa]

I guess I'm one of those rare odd players that enjoys it, but I actually always look forward to getting a war-steed and riding forth. I feel like I tend to be pretty good at controlling the war-steeds though, so maybe that's why I don't mind it. Though there are certainly things that could be improved. I actually just finished up all of Rohan not too long ago and the main issues I found to be annoying were just general rubberbanding, and when mounted enemies would just ride into no combat zones, or way too far away on their own and fights would just reset. Other than that I kind of wish mounted combat skills in general did more damage, but there's not much else I have a problem with. Though I'm sure the experiences vary depending on your class since some seem to be a lot better suited for it than others. Would be annoying to have no ranged attacks for example.

This is me too. I love MC on say my warden, but I think the melee classes got a bit shafted. Its been long enough since i MCed on a RK so I'm not sure if that ones been improved, but I recall the damage for that was pretty pathetic. Once you actually get points into it, it improves greatly I think. But yeah, the rubberbanding seems to be getting worse overall.

[Daniyel]

FYI, not that i disagree with what's been said but, as a simple workaround in game right now, simply going medium steed and traiting sacrifice just solves most issues of dismounting

[Braer]

When we first got to Rohan we had a level cap and time to level the steed and trait all trees to cap if we chose. Perhaps without an enforced halt people are taking on things with less advanced mounts? Also you only get mount experience by killing whilst mounted so if you are doing everything you can on foot you won't be advancing the mount. Making the quests that make you mount up even tougher. The consequence of your decision and no access to capstone traits that make them easier.

[Marancil]

When we first got to Rohan we had a level cap and time to level the steed and trait all trees to cap if we chose. Perhaps without an enforced halt people are taking on things with less advanced mounts? Also you only get mount experience by killing whilst mounted so if you are doing everything you can on foot you won't be advancing the mount. Making the quests that make you mount up even tougher. The consequence of your decision and no access to capstone traits that make them easier.

Yep, but many get dismounted so fast and are so fed up with trait/li grind already they might just tire of it. Otherwise, you are absolutely right.

[Mollymixtures]

I leveled the saddle and mount pretty damned far. I made sure of that. I followed a lot of advice and was assured it would get easier if I did X,Y and Z. It got easier to turn, as expected, but that seemed the only real benefit. Hardly useful when turning isn't your main problem, and enormous and frequent lag-spikes are. A lot of quests that reward LI experience also reward it for the saddle too. I made sure I got a light saddle with agility included, and I still found MC a horrible experience. It's not as if I tried it once and was done with it. I completed Wildermore which includes more than a few mounted quests and is so covered with warbands I practically had to creep around the edges to get from A to B. The fact remains that the whole experience left me cold and I would rather never bother with it again. Adding Sacrifice, changing the weight of the mount, the size of the saddle, etc, etc, etc, ad infinitum, just isn't going to change that. Also, these considerations need to be taken into account separately for virtually every class, and I have enough problems dealing with LIs as it is. I find it silly that I got through Wildermore despite the MC, not because of it, which is ludicrous when you consider that MC was the main selling-point of the pack.

The truth is, if you're going to add that playstyle to a game you had better make sure that it's intuitive, works well for all classes and that the servers can handle it. It really is that simple. I know it's easier to blame the player, but on this account, I'm certainly not the only one having these issues. Far from it, in fact.

And whilst we're on the subject, warbands are a pain I could do without too. Probably great when the servers were full and there was plenty of people leveling beside you and you could set up a party to take them down in a hail of magic, shouts and arrows, but when you're the only one around and one of them happens to wander into a questing area, it's just another irritation in a long list of them already present in MC-oriented areas.

[Braer]

Yep, but many get dismounted so fast and are so fed up with trait/li grind already they might just tire of it. Otherwise, you are absolutely right.

I'm certainly odd because I treat /bugs and poorly implemented tech as a challenge to overcome. I don't mind the grinds too much either because I'll see equipping to do it as efficiently as possible as a win, claw back. Be less interesting if everything worked properly. However it's years since I levelled a new toon properly. Last through here was craft alt except well geared on coffer gear with a tricked out bridle and LIs.

Given the changes coming tricking out a bridle before taking on these tougher fights would add some clout, add some clout. Forget that if declining levelling LIs since 50. Fill the LI panel with level 75 crafted bridles when you hit 75 otherwise.

[Braer]

If we didn't have LSs all the group MC could have been tuned more to solo players coming through later like they did for early Epic line group questing.

[phaelan2]

Definitely not removing it! Making certain enemies during particular quests be less resistant to damage is more along the lines of what I was thinking.

MoL

To me, the single most annoying thing about MC is the enemies running willy nilly all over the place, instead of engaging in more realistic mounted melee. Historically, mounted combat was not running full speed all over the landscape taking wild swings at each other as you passed by. Once engaged, mounted combatants often remained in close quarter melee.

The lesser annoyances would be the speed up/slow down mechanic and that sometimes the mounts feel more like boats on water than horses on the ground (even considering speed an inertia).

[Mollymixtures]

To me, the single most annoying thing about MC is the enemies running willy nilly all over the place, instead of engaging in more realistic mounted melee. Historically, mounted combat was not running full speed all over the landscape taking wild swings at each other as you passed by. Once engaged, mounted combatants often remained in close quarter melee.

The lesser annoyances would be the speed up/slow down mechanic and that sometimes the mounts feel more like boats on water than horses on the ground (even considering speed an inertia).

This is actually a really good way to describe it. Even with traits and the right saddle, the mount can feel too temperamental to me at times. Half of the game mehanic is just trying to get a simple horse from a to b without running it off a cliff. It has no reason to require so much micro-managing.

As for the endless moving, that feels a bit like being stuck in a Benny Hill sketch at times. You just spend the whole fight running around in circles chasing each other, collecting adds and taking the odd swing.

[Braer]

To me, the single most annoying thing about MC is the enemies running willy nilly all over the place, instead of engaging in more realistic mounted melee. Historically, mounted combat was not running full speed all over the landscape taking wild swings at each other as you passed by. Once engaged, mounted combatants often remained in close quarter melee.

The lesser annoyances would be the speed up/slow down mechanic and that sometimes the mounts feel more like boats on water than horses on the ground (even considering speed an inertia).

I guess everyone has seen that toggle that works loosely as an auto pilot to deliver the attack with the most fury. It doesn't have any avoidance AI programmed into it though. If we are looking at close quarter then it isn't combatants stock skill bashing each other it's manoeuvring to get the upper hand seeking a weak spot. Unless your are swinging a mattock (TBD).

The MC control mechanics give us this ability with 16 distinct speeds and a different turn rate at each. In addition by using the mouse in combination with A D you get to better turn onto target, better than turn rate bumps. Gaining the upper-hand.

But it also gives bail out options to stop on release or set to one of the four classics gaits; that a player will select on first getting a mount and never re-evaluate their choice.

Choose not to improve even advocate MC's removal to prove your decision as somehow being the right one? Same fallacy used throughout the game and ensured by the devs whenever implementation falls short. However short things meets our expectation we have to deal with all the hurdles or risk facing any future consequence. Some we won't even appreciate because we don't know what we are missing out on. But yes mastery of War-steed control is a ^$&"£. Not something you can have the first time through but not out of the question on your 15th.

[phaelan2]

I guess everyone has seen that toggle that works loosely as an auto pilot to deliver the attack with the most fury. It doesn't have any avoidance AI programmed into it though. If we are looking at close quarter then it isn't combatants stock skill bashing each other it's manoeuvring to get the upper hand seeking a weak spot. Unless your are swinging a mattock (TBD).

The MC control mechanics give us this ability with 16 distinct speeds and a different turn rate at each. In addition by using the mouse in combination with A D you get to better turn onto target, better than turn rate bumps. Gaining the upper-hand.

But it also gives bail out options to stop on release or set to one of the four classics gaits; that a player will select on first getting a mount and never re-evaluate their choice.

Choose not to improve even advocate MC's removal to prove your decision as somehow being the right one? Same fallacy used throughout the game and ensured by the devs whenever implementation falls short. However short things meets our expectation we have to deal with all the hurdles or risk facing any future consequence. Some we won't even appreciate because we don't know what we are missing out on. But yes mastery of War-steed control is a ^$&"£. Not something you can have the first time through but not out of the question on your 15th.

Where did you get the idea I was advocating for removal of the system? Improvement would be much appreciated.

I just want the wonkiness of high speed running all over the landscape fixed. That is not realistic, historically speaking. I have no problem winning battles with MC, and I know how to handle speed and turn rate. I just find the mechanics annoyingly unrealistic, which ruins immersion.

Side note: Historically speaking, close quarter MC actually did often end up with the riders standing in their stirrups bashing each other with little maneuvering. Not always, but it was not uncommon. But I'm not advocating for that, just keeping the combatants better engaged and tweaking the mechanics. As it is, MC is boring.

[phaelan2]

This is actually a really good way to describe it. Even with traits and the right saddle, the mount can feel too temperamental to me at times. Half of the game mehanic is just trying to get a simple horse from a to b without running it off a cliff. It has no reason to require so much micro-managing.

As for the endless moving, that feels a bit like being stuck in a Benny Hill sketch at times. You just spend the whole fight running around in circles chasing each other, collecting adds and taking the odd swing.

This. I don't want to feel like I'm in a comedy sketch, I want to feel like I am in Medieval-style combat. MC has a lot of potential, the implementation just needs to be cleaned up a bit.

[DaystarWarrior]

Add me to the list of MC fans. Some of the most fun I had in this game was when the level cap was 95 and people from all over the server were doing West Rohan WB runs. Glorious to participate with 25+ characters on hard charging war steeds taking down the big mobs!

[Braer]

Where did you get the idea I was advocating for removal of the system? Improvement would be much appreciated.

I just want the wonkiness of high speed running all over the landscape fixed. That is not realistic, historically speaking. I have no problem winning battles with MC, and I know how to handle speed and turn rate. I just find the mechanics annoyingly unrealistic, which ruins immersion.

Side note: Historically speaking, close quarter MC actually did often end up with the riders standing in their stirrups bashing each other with little maneuvering. Not always, but it was not uncommon. But I'm not advocating for that, just keeping the combatants better engaged and tweaking the mechanics. As it is, MC is boring.

Sorry, no I did not think that at all. Yes dismounted, on their knees in blood and mud, exhausted, hardy able to lift a weapon. We don't need to go that far.

Wonky swerves, 0 speed indicator just new tech implemented without regard to old systems? Too many pats on the back before going to BR. All works great on the office test server.

If I want to really crush my game latency to "stress" test I'll do a big upload to reduce in game comms for the duration. I'd hope SSG would have a software route to mimic a whole bunch of server interactions for internal testing. What of the other studios? Any of them have some tech to share?

I take the wayward warg riders as n00bs figuring out how to control their newly acquired mount, have you seen any warg riding schools? How many gaits does a warg even have? All about getting on their six, breaking off and re-acquiring target as needed, at least in a melee context. Ironic that auto attack bow is OP right now at cap.

[Mollymixtures]

Choose not to improve even advocate MC's removal to prove your decision as somehow being the right one? Same fallacy used throughout the game and ensured by the devs whenever implementation falls short. However short things meets our expectation we have to deal with all the hurdles or risk facing any future consequence. Some we won't even appreciate because we don't know what we are missing out on. But yes mastery of War-steed control is a ^$&"£. Not something you can have the first time through but not out of the question on your 15th.

Even if I wanted the removal of MC, which I haven't even asked for, it's not as if it would ever happen. This game is given only the lightest touch when it comes to doing anything about anything, so why on earth should you be worried? It won't be improved either. At best we can hope for is for the worst fights to be made more reasonable.

And, I'm sorry, but just keeping at it is not the answer when lag is the major issue. I have experienced MC way more than 15 times, and I wouldn't even call myself bad at it when I can tell what's going on, but it becomes absolutely pointless if I cannot control my character for large chunks of time, full stop. Me getting better is moot when the servers are in such an awful state.

I really wish people could try to understand that we're not all clearly playing the same game here. Someone positioned in the US could be having a whale of a time because their latency is low and constant. They can whiz around on a war horse and get to experience it the way it was intended. Some poor sod in the EU, however, is getting a slideshow effect and perhaps an unexpected death at the end of it with no explanation as to why, because they've been staring at a frozen screen rather than interacting with the game. There are times when the lag is so bad that I can wait the best part of a minute for a mob to react to my first hit. It's not just me having these problems. It's been well documented FOR YEARS, and it's apparently impossible to either get something done about it or to get those who aren't personally experiencing it to acknowledge that some others do. Mounted combat is designed to be fast and frantic. You cannot have that with high latency. Speed, toggles, traits, etc, mean nothing when the server you're on takes a dump.