Bullroarer Update 30.3 - Beta 2 - CLOSED

[Daniyel]

Just want to say thank you for this!
I raised this during one the recent class revamps in between Three Peaks release and Anulbizar release

Increased healing for Relish Battle and Bob & Weave.

[Andolvar]

Every % based heals on new LI, from word of power traceries, gives only the half of that %. Same goes for Hearten heal traceries.

And Vigilant roar incoming healing gives only half of the value as well.

[Hephburz-2]

I do hope Captains get bleed pulses back, at least. Though honestly over the course of the last year or so even though Captain has remained a vital class for group content I feel the quality of solo play has really dropped with all the changes made to the class added up. It's just not nearly as fun or effective as is used to be in that regard, and I feel like now the new LI system will further reduce it with a lack of bleed pulses, no weapon/emblem swapping, and having to choose between healing and DPS legacies in ways we wouldn't have had to before. Captain used to be perhaps my favorite class in the game and now I'm starting to feel just kind of meh about it. I feel like it's slowly creeping back to being little more than a buff stick for a group that doesn't offer a fun experience as a class itself. It's not there totally yet, but imo it's heading in that direction as of right now. Could just be me though.

As a Captain main, I completely echo this feeling as well.

[Omen_Kaizer]

As a Captain main, I completely echo this feeling as well.

Looks like we got further nerfed in week 2. DB, GW, SS, and possibly more were nerfed with no accompany patch notes.

[NailFelagund]

I understood why the yellow line skills were nerfed back in the day, but who thought it would be a good idea to weaken cappy support line? It's not like we are super powerful anyway...

[Hephburz-2]

Looks like we got further nerfed in week 2. DB, GW, SS, and possibly more were nerfed with no accompany patch notes.

Lovely. Just what we needed.

[Khluzainn]

After boosting every class and going through several dummy rotations for damage there are a handful of classes that really lost with the update so far. Preaching to the choir here but I really hope SSG realizes that RED CAPTAIN, RED GUARD, and DPS CHAMP are way down. There is a large vocal group already talking for the champ so I will speak up for the captain and guardian which both have really fun and involved dps rotations.

Captain needs 2 things IMO, captain has really strong legacies with values giving damage to skills 80-140%. However the update knocked everything down to 38-55% dmg increase. May not seem like it but when these start adding up alot of skills are hitting almost half of what they hit for on live. Second is bleed pulses... Not going to lie if you dont give a bleed pulse legacy you need to incrase grave wound bleed dmg by about 3X to make it even close to live. With captains already getting their support nerfed in the last couple patches their dps should at least be improved to keep up.

Now.... I love red guard. So I hate seeing the 22% dot legacy replaceing the 45% bleed on live and the 70% bleed crit damage. Both of these are EXTREMELY important to a red guardian and TBH they were already needing bleed buffs on live. Now guardian bleeds fall way behind its skill damage. For a bleed centered class it really needs some love. I understand the path you guys are taking the new LIs and I fully approve. However there are a handful of classes and specs that NEED to have ability compensation WHEN this launches NOT AFTER. So far champs had a small tweak but they are one of like 5 that need some serious looks. Please buff guardian bleeds. Or add Word of Craft traceries that add 25% bleed dmg or somthing like you do for elemental dmg. Make my red guard dream real.

Edit: Also guardian really needs 5% crit chance added somewhere in the traitline..... IMO you could replace the useless Prey on the Weak trait and make it a bleed catch all trait. Like 50% bleed crit mag and 5% crit chance. Just saying..

[Nubja]

After boosting every class and going through several dummy rotations for damage there are a handful of classes that really lost with the update so far. Preaching to the choir here but I really hope SSG realizes that RED CAPTAIN, RED GUARD, and DPS CHAMP are way down. There is a large vocal group already talking for the champ so I will speak up for the captain and guardian which both have really fun and involved dps rotations.

Captain needs 2 things IMO, captain has really strong legacies with values giving damage to skills 80-140%. However the update knocked everything down to 38-55% dmg increase. May not seem like it but when these start adding up alot of skills are hitting almost half of what they hit for on live. Second is bleed pulses... Not going to lie if you dont give a bleed pulse legacy you need to incrase grave wound bleed dmg by about 3X to make it even close to live. With captains already getting their support nerfed in the last couple patches their dps should at least be improved to keep up.

Now.... I love red guard. So I hate seeing the 22% dot legacy replaceing the 45% bleed on live and the 70% bleed crit damage. Both of these are EXTREMELY important to a red guardian and TBH they were already needing bleed buffs on live. Now guardian bleeds fall way behind its skill damage. For a bleed centered class it really needs some love. I understand the path you guys are taking the new LIs and I fully approve. However there are a handful of classes and specs that NEED to have ability compensation WHEN this launches NOT AFTER. So far champs had a small tweak but they are one of like 5 that need some serious looks. Please buff guardian bleeds. Or add Word of Craft traceries that add 25% bleed dmg or somthing like you do for elemental dmg. Make my red guard dream real.

Edit: Also guardian really needs 5% crit chance added somewhere in the traitline..... IMO you could replace the useless Prey on the Weak trait and make it a bleed catch all trait. Like 50% bleed crit mag and 5% crit chance. Just saying..

wdym about guards; their dps is pretty pog compared to live. Far above what champs can do on BR

[Khluzainn]

wdym about guards; their dps is pretty pog compared to live. Far above what champs can do on BR

When you compare to wardens and hunters man... critical thinking maybe? Comparing red guardian to a broken and useless dps on beta isnt helpful..... Its already well known that champ is terrible right now so saying they compare to a trash class doesnt mean much. Also Guardian damage keeps moving more and more to skill damage and not bleed and guardian dps should be a nice even split between bleeds and skill damage. I am not asking for all guardian damage to be buffed just the bleeds.

[Nubja]

When you compare to wardens and hunters man... critical thinking maybe? Comparing red guardian to a broken and useless dps on beta isnt helpful..... Its already well known that champ is terrible right now so saying they compare to a trash class doesnt mean much. Also Guardian damage keeps moving more and more to skill damage and not bleed and guardian dps should be a nice even split between bleeds and skill damage. I am not asking for all guardian damage to be buffed just the bleeds.

Red guardian is non viable on live; it's hardly a priority.

damage moving from bleeds to base skill damages is a personal complaint from you, not a balancing issue.

it's quite obvious that hunters and wardens are overturned, nerf them down a bit and guardians are in comparaitively the most balanced spot.

[Khluzainn]

Red guardian is non viable on live; it's hardly a priority.

damage moving from bleeds to base skill damages is a personal complaint from you, not a balancing issue.

it's quite obvious that hunters and wardens are overturned, nerf them down a bit and guardians are in comparaitively the most balanced spot.

I understand reading comprehension is hard but not moving damage to bleeds but adding to it... and yes its not a priority but it also takes almost no resources to adjust 2-3 dmg values and boom a mildy viable spec for up to T2. Almost every comment in the beta forums is a 'personal' desire of some sort. Get real

[Rino90]

When you compare to wardens and hunters man... critical thinking maybe? Comparing red guardian to a broken and useless dps on beta isnt helpful..... Its already well known that champ is terrible right now so saying they compare to a trash class doesnt mean much. Also Guardian damage keeps moving more and more to skill damage and not bleed and guardian dps should be a nice even split between bleeds and skill damage. I am not asking for all guardian damage to be buffed just the bleeds.

As far as I can tell, red Guardian is now in fourth place behind Hunter, Warden and Beorning (with a slight lag) in solo damage (250-260k). Considering that DPS of the first two is just insane at the moment and is unlikely to remain the same, this is a very good result.
I would rather add some useful raid debuffs to the skills than rebalancing the guard's damage towards increasing the effect of bleeding.

[gaara908776]

As far as I can tell, red Guardian is now in fourth place behind Hunter, Warden and Beorning (with a slight lag) in solo damage (250-260k). Considering that DPS of the first two is just insane at the moment and is unlikely to remain the same, this is a very good result.
I would rather add some useful raid debuffs to the skills than rebalancing the guard's damage towards increasing the effect of bleeding.

Burglar is doing pretty well, also. Red Guard would actually pull ahead of Beorning in a raid pretty easily. Beorn are known to be able to parse high on a dummy then severely underperform for actual instances.

Warden/Hunter are for sure a bit overtuned. However, keep in mind that Warden will have a significant DPS loss going to 140 due to loss of -5s mastery cooldown set. I wouldn’t be surprised if that alone bumps their damage down by 25% at least.

My friends who play Red Guardian haven’t complained much about the DPS amounts they’re getting. We’ve even run with Red Guard dps in FoKD tier 3 and Shelob tier 4 a few times and the Red Guard we brought didn’t underperform on boss DPS at all. It looks like the BR numbers for the class are pretty in line with the balance on live servers.

[cbfan14]

As far as I can tell, red Guardian is now in fourth place behind Hunter, Warden and Beorning (with a slight lag) in solo damage (250-260k). Considering that DPS of the first two is just insane at the moment and is unlikely to remain the same, this is a very good result.
I would rather add some useful raid debuffs to the skills than rebalancing the guard's damage towards increasing the effect of bleeding.

250k-260k? Is that with buffs? I'm glad to hear that guard dps is better than before with this update; it means the guard can still join a group as dps if the tank spot is already taken.

[BigLotroFan]

Red guardian is non viable on live; it's hardly a priority.

damage moving from bleeds to base skill damages is a personal complaint from you, not a balancing issue.

it's quite obvious that hunters and wardens are overturned, nerf them down a bit and guardians are in comparaitively the most balanced spot.

What does nonviable on live mean? At high tier raiding? Or for any group play?... Because I play red guard and I am always in pugs for stair t1-t3, AD T1 and FoKD T1 without any issues.

[Rino90]

250k-260k? Is that with buffs? I'm glad to hear that guard dps is better than before with this update; it means the guard can still join a group as dps if the tank spot is already taken.

Only with food for regen. Without it, mana ends in one minute, just like in the good old days.

[Kaeneth]

I'm not super savvy on red guards, but I have dabbled with them a bit and think they're a very fun spec to play that really feels different from champ. They don't seem to be in a bad spot with these new LIs, and I think it would be a step in the right direction to make them just as viable for T5 content as the other DPS classes. Not only would this open up spots for more than one guard, which is one of those classes that more often than not only gets one spot, but if there comes a time again where guard isn't the preferred tank, they would still have some relevancy similar to the warden, which is a lot better than none at all like where guards were before. That being said from what I've played for myself, and from what I've read from others, there's really 3 main points that should get just a bit of adjustment to make this happen.

1. Parry responses. When you're playing solo, you get plenty of these and it's not a problem. When somebody is tanking though and you aren't taking hits, you only have two methods to get parry responses. Forced opening, and Sting when specced for it.
As of now with 5 (10) points put into Relentless Assault in the blue tree sting gets a 25% chance to activate a parry response. I think this should be increased a bit so that red guards in groups can more reliably get parry responses.

2. Bleeds have been covered, but even with overall damage up I think bleeds could still use a bit of a bump in light of the % loss from the new LIs.

3. Group Utility. Protection by the sword is all red guard brings off the top of my head, and it's not all that great. Either buff it up some, or maybe more preferably, change it to do something else. Even if guards don't have top tier damage themselves, if they can bring some kind of utility that helps overall damage more than what protection by the sword does, then that could make the difference.

I think if those changes take place then there's a chance that it might just push red guard to get where it needs to be. If that still falls short then I'd say maybe lower the cooldown just a bit on hammer down, or add some way to reset the CD ever so often. If a guardian is geared and specced for red though then there's no reason they shouldn't be just as viable as other classes to DPS. A class that can fulfill multiple roles is not only more fun to vary your playstyle but also healthy to insure they can always participate in some way.

Concerning champion- with them getting work done I think this would be a good time to do something with bracing attack too. With stats only seeming to continue to inflate I think the best option for now would be to just change it to a % heal. I know not everybody likes those, but with stats always rising and certain abilities always left unscaled I think it would be the best choice. Right now it's hardly even worth using because it heals such a low amount, and because of that it's a pretty pointless legacy or tracery to use too with so many other choices available. Also just going to throw it out there that I'd love to get shields back if for nothing but the cosmetic variations. I'm somebody who likes flexibility and variations in my MMO classes if that's not obvious.

[fealegwe2]

Anyone noticed that % Ranged Damage Increase legacy is missing on the warden? or maybe i am the only one that Plays yello

[Omen_Kaizer]

Anyone noticed that % Ranged Damage Increase legacy is missing on the warden? or maybe i am the only one that Plays yello

Yes, and yellow line is a melee spec when played effectively. Light damage legacy is gone too.

Legacies that give really broad bonuses were largely cut because Word of Power traceries do the same thing. Balancing needed after that move is pretty significant.

[JERH]

Anyone noticed that % Ranged Damage Increase legacy is missing on the warden? or maybe i am the only one that Plays yello

The boost in base dps + words brings gambits like ranged resounding challenge up by about 30% tooltip over live. If I stay in assailment and use the old main hand I get about a 50% boost on RRC over live but SoD/deso line is less. I run in red/yellow or yellow/red depending on circumstances. After some experimentation the new LI line is workable even losing the 2 legacies (light and ranged).

Bigger problem is the heal bug. 646 hp per tick at 130 from celebration is absurd.